SeeYou190Grouping years together that are visually similar is very handy for descriptive purposes. It makes it easier to commmunicate with one another.
Yeah, sometimes it does and that's usually when people discuss the stuff involved, rather than spending a lot of time trying to fit things into somewhat arbitrary boxes. Among historians, such discussions are thought of as part of historiography or the "history of history."
While it can be a helpful device to open a discussion, I tend to find it boring and dry when it gets stuck on that and really doesn't advance understanding because people focus on their disagreement on how to classify things rather than dealing with topics that often can't be reduced to. A discussion about which somewhat arbitrary slot something goes into is relatively less interesting than looking at its overall significance to me.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
MJ4562Dominated by steam. Yes, diesels exist but they are a minority. Team tracks can refer to trucks or horse drawn wagons. Era covers everything from vertical boilers and the Best Friend of Charleston (name?) to Superpower steam locomotives. The reason this era is so huge is because these earlier time periods are so underrepresented in the hobby. If you're modeling the 1840s you are pretty much scratchbuilding most of your equipment. Same with 1900. That's why I lump this era all together.
You may be correct, but some steam modelers would break this era down into early steam, civil war, 19th century, TOC19, Pre-depression era, and depression era.
Gary
mlehman Era definitions are artificial constructs with a useful goal to help better define how one thinks about history.
They cannot really be used outside the topic they are describing.
I don't think any model railroaders model the "Napoleanic Era", but a lot of military buffs have that as their main interest.
Grouping years together that are visually similar is very handy for descriptive purposes. It makes it easier to commmunicate with one another.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
If sufficiently motivated, you could model any give year, or any month of that year, since the first commercial run of Stephen's Rocket.
Some would interest me more than others. You would probably like a different time.
As I historian, I tried to avert my eyes from what I knew would be a trainwreck. Era definitions are artificial constructs with a useful goal to help better define how one thinks about history. Beyond that, don't get too hung up on them. History doesn't care, because it's mostly about facts with a big helping of argument about what those facts imply. By the act of choosing how to define eras, no matter which way you turn, you're making an argument about history with the facts. And your era definitions are only as useful to you as you can make them and only as persuasive to others as you can build credible evidence for. There aren't really right or wrong answers here, it's more about how good a case you can make from your POV.
There are literally hundreds of eras in RRing alone. Big, broad eras, like steam vs diesel are easy enough to bring up if not precisely identify.
Consider that every major RR and many smaller ones each have their own set of eras defined by technology, people, money, and the economy they operated in. Then confuse things a bit more by throwing in outfits like the Rio Grande, which operated modern stuff at the same time they ran steam, through the 70s, the 1970s.
SeeYou190 "serious model railroader"
Kevin, Serious model railroader isn't as bad as many think. You and I are indeed "serious" modelers in the way we choose to model.
I am very serious when it comes to have era correct cars,you enjoy collecting freelance railroad cars so, you too are "serious".
In short everybody is serious in their form of modeling.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Sometimes I don't join into a thread when I just don't know Kevin.
My way of thinking whether right or wrong has always been...
Old west steam, wood burners and darn near everything was made out of wood, horses and no cars.
More modern steam when they started burning coal and started building steel Bridges, also Stone Masonry, abutments, portals Etc. Oil is discovered and people start putting around in thier Model T's and model A's. Industry begins.
Pre-transitional steam when they started burning mainly oil, concrete forming and structure without Stone. Steel-framed everything. Industry starts booming.
Transitional era.
Modern day era
And double stack modern day now.
So I guess it looks like I think six
I have a railroad roster of both transitional and modern-day. My plan is to be able to clear off the layout and switch eras once and awhile.
I sure like the old west steam though. My plan is someday when I finish the layout I'm on is to start an HON30 layout in an old west logging town theme. The kind of layout where you can fit bigger into smaller not having to worry about radius and grades as much and it still looks good.
TF
I model the Transition Era, (1947-1963) and little bit of the Present Day, (1980-2017).
LastspikemikeMost serious modellers want their railroad to represent something
We try to avoid the terms "serious model railroader" and "real model railroader" in these forums because it always brings the conversation to a bad place.
If you want to discuss what makes someone a serious model railroader, please start a new thread, and then it will be locked very soon, but I do not want this brought up in my thread about eras.
Thank you.
I believe Kevin and MJ54562 have hit on a reasonable breakdown on era. I model transition era(with license). I guess my upper limit is defined by autos. No models past 1956 are on the layout. I do fudge a bit on rolling stock.
Another interestnig question would be "why did you decide to model a specific era"?
The answer for many would be "I didn't", and that is fine.
The first STRATTON AND GILLETTE did not have a specific era. This was mainly because the N scale equipment available in 1982 did not allow for too much era selection, especially on my budget.
Then the SGRR went to 1968 because of the excellent equipment Kato was bringing to the market. SD-40s, GP-40s, GP-35s, GP-30s, and more. Add to that the Atlas SD-9s, and it was 1968 heaven.
Then after two more N scale layouts I switched to HO. The HO scale STRATTON AND GILLETTE was originally 1968 also, but my desire for steam, and ability to live without anything newer than a GP-9 made that happen. The date ws moved to 1954.
I model a specific date because I hate anachronism. You will not see any equipment on my layout that could not have existed in 1954 (The SGRR went into TOFC service early and heavy).
However, I play fast-and-loose with everything else. The location of my layout is purposefully impossible to nail down. It could be the midwest, Georgia, or Oregon. No one knows, and I do not say. I have regional things from all over the United States, but I don't even claim the layout is in the USA.
But... all the flags have 48 stars, and there are no 1955 Chevrolets anywhere.
MJ4562 What are we attempting to accomplish here by naming 'eras'? Serious question. In my experience eras are only generalizations and quick reference points used to quickly/conveniently categorize and describe the style of railroading you model or are interested in; similar to using pronouns in conversation instead of constantly referring to a person by name. Also eras are commonly used for marketing purposes and surveys to group styles together. So if for example you model contemporary railroading, you don't waste your time looking at golden era of steam products or discuss operations of that era or vice versa. When it comes to detailing your layout, era is meaningless as you need to focus much more narrowly if you are trying to model a prototype time period. For example, a Kennedy-Johnson campaign poster is inccorect detail if your layout is dated prior to August 13 1960 or after November 22 1963. Likewise you better not have Spring foilage in New England if set in the Fall. While I'm not one of them, there are rail historians that can similarly date photos to a very narrow time range just by looking at the type of diesel unit being used. While these are important details, they are well outside the scope of Model Railroad Eras.
What are we attempting to accomplish here by naming 'eras'? Serious question.
In my experience eras are only generalizations and quick reference points used to quickly/conveniently categorize and describe the style of railroading you model or are interested in; similar to using pronouns in conversation instead of constantly referring to a person by name. Also eras are commonly used for marketing purposes and surveys to group styles together.
So if for example you model contemporary railroading, you don't waste your time looking at golden era of steam products or discuss operations of that era or vice versa.
When it comes to detailing your layout, era is meaningless as you need to focus much more narrowly if you are trying to model a prototype time period. For example, a Kennedy-Johnson campaign poster is inccorect detail if your layout is dated prior to August 13 1960 or after November 22 1963. Likewise you better not have Spring foilage in New England if set in the Fall. While I'm not one of them, there are rail historians that can similarly date photos to a very narrow time range just by looking at the type of diesel unit being used. While these are important details, they are well outside the scope of Model Railroad Eras.
Well, OK.
The OP, Kevin, and myself, are pretty specific.
He has a set date and time of day, despite being a freelance modeler.
I have a set month and year, despite being a freelance/protolance modeler who also models three real railroads as closely as practical.
"era is meaningless as you need to focus much more narrowly if you are trying to model a prototype time period"
Everybody in this hobby decides for themselves just how "accurate" or "fussy" they want to be about stuff, "need" is a strong word here.
Some people are happy just describing their layouts as being "approximately" between 1977 and 1983 for example, and don't care about small anacronisums.
Some don't care at all.
I have long contended that as time marches on, there are more different prototypes to make models of, more "eras" to choose from, but not a similar growth in the number of modelers.
Thereby reducing the demand for any one model, or models from any one "era", which is part of the product conundrum we are in today - products made to order via preorder.
So defining "eras" to some degree and possibly determining the level of interest in each, likely has value to both modelers and manufacturers.
Personally, while I make a strong effort to make my layout very "era" correct for my September 1954 "era", I make no effort to model real places. Maybe that fails your "need" test as well?
In another thread, a poster suggested that he "knew" that "most" (or a large percentage) modelers are interested in and model present day trains.
I started a thread to take an informal poll. The results suggested that the late 40's to the early 50's remains the most popular range, with other time periods in the late 20th century also being popular.
I suspect Kevin desired to further define people's thinking on this.
Sheldon
MJ4562What are we attempting to accomplish here by naming 'eras'? Serious question.
Sheldon (ATLANTIC CENTRAL) started a thread asking everybody what "era" they model, but he did not provide a list for anyone to choose from.
I did not want to throw his thread off-topic, so I started a new thread to see what eras we have to choose from, and what they are called.
I model the "transition era", which is a term that everyone understands, but I do not know if other eras have names that are as obvious.
The "modern era" keeps changing.
This is really just a light discussion, nothing to change the world.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI don't care if you decide that the best breaks in the list are not "on the decade", make it 1953 to 1963 if that matches the changes better.
Sheldon, I will say a 10-12 year window would be a better block choice.
Also I agree a lot of changes can take place in five years.
NittanyLion I contend that picking nice, even decadal periods or even propulsive technology is not the way to go. Broader, but visually distinctive, periods carve out times that give the individual model railroader an "era" that defines what they run without trying to tie it to years: Contemporary: Ditchlights, reflective striping, COTS panels deleted from rolling stock, headshields on tank cars, PTC antennas Modern: Roofwalks deleted, ACI labels, yellow dots from wheel inspections, IPD boxcars, the first wide cabs. Mid-Century: no steam, wood rolling stock has all but vanished, pre-Amtrak passenger trains Late Steam: early generation diesels are around, but steam rules the day. Steel rolling stock dominates, but wood hasn't disappeared. Golden Age: Steam-only, the classic age of wood reefers and stock cars, rivets everywhere. Earlier than that, you're already so niche that you'll just say "Civil War" or whatever, because you're in a different category compared to the more mass-market model builder.
I contend that picking nice, even decadal periods or even propulsive technology is not the way to go. Broader, but visually distinctive, periods carve out times that give the individual model railroader an "era" that defines what they run without trying to tie it to years:
Contemporary: Ditchlights, reflective striping, COTS panels deleted from rolling stock, headshields on tank cars, PTC antennas
Modern: Roofwalks deleted, ACI labels, yellow dots from wheel inspections, IPD boxcars, the first wide cabs.
Mid-Century: no steam, wood rolling stock has all but vanished, pre-Amtrak passenger trains
Late Steam: early generation diesels are around, but steam rules the day. Steel rolling stock dominates, but wood hasn't disappeared.
Golden Age: Steam-only, the classic age of wood reefers and stock cars, rivets everywhere.
Earlier than that, you're already so niche that you'll just say "Civil War" or whatever, because you're in a different category compared to the more mass-market model builder.
OK, I get and like the "visually distinctive" idea, but this is still not enough of a breakdown in my mind.
And again, if you are modeling "whole scenes" there is much more to it than rail technology markers.
Yes there will always be those big key changes. For my modeling one of those is the late 1953 appearance of 75' piggyback flats on the PRR, WABASH and the ATLANTIC CENTRAL .
Those cars were rare and regional in 1954, but a year earlier they did not exist.
By the early 60's those same cars were obsolite for piggyback and replaced by 85' cars.
That sets a pretty small window........
I just can't see any of these 40 to 60 year windows people have suggested, no matter the criteria.
I don't care if you decide that the best breaks in the list are not "on the decade", make it 1953 to 1963 if that matches the changes better.
But I am still thinking 5 year blocks would be most accurate.
By way of expanding the reach of this tar-baby thread, perhaps a better 'working definition' is what is not included: no wooden-under frame cars or AC synthesis-drive engines; no plain bearings in interchange but no 53' well flats... you get the picture, but it could be any day in a range of years that your favorite equipment might 'plausibly' run the way you want it to operate.
This neatly handles the 'don't care' parts, too -- if you don't care what year muscle cars got redlines or when radios became road standard you can just 'let it be'...
MJ4562 1) Modern: 2000 to present 2) Modern transition: 1980-1999 3) Diesel: 1960-1980 4) Diesel Transition: 1940-1960 5) Steam: Pre-1940
1) Modern: 2000 to present
2) Modern transition: 1980-1999
3) Diesel: 1960-1980
4) Diesel Transition: 1940-1960
5) Steam: Pre-1940
NittanyLion I contend that picking nice, even decadal periods or even propulsive technology is not the way to go. Broader, but visually distinctive, periods carve out times that give the individual model railroader an "era" that defines what they run without trying to tie it to years
I contend that picking nice, even decadal periods or even propulsive technology is not the way to go. Broader, but visually distinctive, periods carve out times that give the individual model railroader an "era" that defines what they run without trying to tie it to years
I was leaning towards the "decades" idea, but MJ4562 and Nittany Lion made some really great points.
Saying I model "the 1950s" sounds different than I model "the late transition era".
This has been a good discussion. Please keep posting your thoughts.
And I will renew my position that railroad technology, or even railroad specific history, should not be the only defining criteria.
And that is why every 10 years, or every five years makes sense.
Overmod Why leave out the era of transition to power air brakes, or knuckle couplers from link-and-pin? Or the transition from weird hook-and-gab valve gear to link, and then later to radial valve gear and piston valves and superheat? Or the balancing revolution that made Super-Power meaningful after 1928?
Why leave out the era of transition to power air brakes, or knuckle couplers from link-and-pin? Or the transition from weird hook-and-gab valve gear to link, and then later to radial valve gear and piston valves and superheat? Or the balancing revolution that made Super-Power meaningful after 1928?
Actually, these innovations are all intimately wrapped up in the transition from wood to steel. This probably isn't anyone's particular interest here but mine, but the best brief description I have ever found was written by the late Bob Sloan in his "A Century + Ten of D&RGW Narrow Gauge Freight Cars." His intro includes a section called "The Interstate Commerce Commission and Narrow Gauge Rolling Stock." Probably of serious interest only to those of us who are modeling at the intersection of multiple regulatory requirements for car marking and safety appliances, but a great explanation of how much happened, and how it was tied to fleet development.
I agree with the idea that we can sort of invent categories and classifications of many types, depending on what we choose to examine, but I think if you really want to classify the industry by changes in equipment types, there are really three big periods that completely transformed fleets (and, to some extent, infrastructure): Wood to steel, steam to diesel, and containerization. I think the first is in many ways the most transformational, because it brought infrastructure changes that the industry has been living off of ever since. For example, as train weights started to rise after 1900, most railroads completely rebuilt their infrastructure to accomodate not just the weights they could forsee, but those they imagined they might have to accomodate. They built so strongly that, a century later, the industry is still living off their investments.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
IRONROOSTER *** WARNING Humor (supposedly) follows *** I suppose another way to break it down is to have 3 eras : 1. The years before most of my stuff existed. 2. The years most of my stuff existed. 3. The years after most of my stuff was gone.
*** WARNING Humor (supposedly) follows ***
I suppose another way to break it down is to have 3 eras :
1. The years before most of my stuff existed.
2. The years most of my stuff existed.
3. The years after most of my stuff was gone.
Very often I find myself looking at the hobby exactly like that. I tend to refer to anything built after 1956 as being "modern", and that point of view simply does not work.
Great point, humor and all.
There is yet another era that I call the ConRail era 1976-1998 due to the mega merers of that time frame and the growth of new short lines based on railroads selling or leasing unwanted trackage..We can not overlook the rebirth of the boxcar in late 70s that includes Railbox.
During the CR era we saw the last EMD Geep(GP60 and its subclasses) as well as the birth of the modern GEs and EMDs and the demised of the caboose.
So,the CR era is a sufficent time frame in the annuals of railroad hstory.
PRR8259There is no way that the "merger" era began in 1980. There were many mergers before then, and one can argue when the "most" mergers of Class 1 railroads actually occurred, and I bet it's well before 1980.
While mergers happen all the time, the last 2 decades of the 20th Century are when the big companies in the U.S. merged together - CSX, NS, BNSF, UP (with SP), KCS. And when Conrail was divided between CSX and NS. These railroads along with CN and CP (both of which are Canadian railroads that have some presence in the U.S.) and Amtrak are the current class 1 railroads in the U.S.
Personally, I don't think of Amtrak as a class 1 because so much of it operates on railroads they don't own, but the criteria is revenue not miles of trackage.
So for me the 1980's to 2000 are the merger era - perhaps I should say the Mega RR Merger Era.
But as others have noted, everyone has their own way of looking at it.
or 2 eras:
1. The years I like.
2. The years I don't like.
*** End Of Humor ***
Interesting topic. Personally, I enjoy reading everyone's take on eras. It reflects the great diversity of the hobby that is united by our love of model trains.
Paul
rrebell Boy, not to complain but some of those dates seem way off, WW1 started before 1916.
Boy, not to complain but some of those dates seem way off, WW1 started before 1916.
U.S. declared war in April 1917.
All dates are arbitrary, depending on your viewpoint.
Lastspikemike ATLANTIC CENTRAL angelob6660 Here's the European time period Eras. Era 1: Approx 1870-1925/or 1835-1925 Country and Private railways. Era 2: Approx 1920-1945/or 1925-1945 The period after the formation of larger railways. Era 3: Approx 1945-1970 The new organization of European railroads. Era 4: Approx 1968-1985/or 1970-1990 Standardized computer lettering on all rolling stock and locks. Era 5: Approx 1985-2000/or 1990-2006 The modern era of railroading. Era 6: 2006-present The liberation of new requirements of locomotives and cars. Europe and North America have nothing in common on this topic. In Europe and the UK, railroads are state run and standardization easily marks point of major change and tends to create longer periods between change. North America thru most of the 20th Century, 400 plus different major carriers all developing equipment and having different operational requirements do tot he wide differences in conditions across all of North America. Sheldon That is a serious oversimplification. UK railways were definitely not state run for the majority of the eras and certainly aren't today. Even European state subsidized railways are not "state run". Canada has two railroad companies, one taken over by the government early in its history and the other launched with a truly massive subsidy but ostensibly a "private" business. The apparent "private business" nature of US railroading is also not the whole story. Besides, none of this is relevant to the state of railroad technology at any given time.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL angelob6660 Here's the European time period Eras. Era 1: Approx 1870-1925/or 1835-1925 Country and Private railways. Era 2: Approx 1920-1945/or 1925-1945 The period after the formation of larger railways. Era 3: Approx 1945-1970 The new organization of European railroads. Era 4: Approx 1968-1985/or 1970-1990 Standardized computer lettering on all rolling stock and locks. Era 5: Approx 1985-2000/or 1990-2006 The modern era of railroading. Era 6: 2006-present The liberation of new requirements of locomotives and cars. Europe and North America have nothing in common on this topic. In Europe and the UK, railroads are state run and standardization easily marks point of major change and tends to create longer periods between change. North America thru most of the 20th Century, 400 plus different major carriers all developing equipment and having different operational requirements do tot he wide differences in conditions across all of North America. Sheldon
angelob6660 Here's the European time period Eras. Era 1: Approx 1870-1925/or 1835-1925 Country and Private railways. Era 2: Approx 1920-1945/or 1925-1945 The period after the formation of larger railways. Era 3: Approx 1945-1970 The new organization of European railroads. Era 4: Approx 1968-1985/or 1970-1990 Standardized computer lettering on all rolling stock and locks. Era 5: Approx 1985-2000/or 1990-2006 The modern era of railroading. Era 6: 2006-present The liberation of new requirements of locomotives and cars.
Here's the European time period Eras.
Era 1: Approx 1870-1925/or 1835-1925 Country and Private railways.
Era 2: Approx 1920-1945/or 1925-1945 The period after the formation of larger railways.
Era 3: Approx 1945-1970 The new organization of European railroads.
Era 4: Approx 1968-1985/or 1970-1990 Standardized computer lettering on all rolling stock and locks.
Era 5: Approx 1985-2000/or 1990-2006 The modern era of railroading.
Era 6: 2006-present The liberation of new requirements of locomotives and cars.
Europe and North America have nothing in common on this topic.
In Europe and the UK, railroads are state run and standardization easily marks point of major change and tends to create longer periods between change.
North America thru most of the 20th Century, 400 plus different major carriers all developing equipment and having different operational requirements do tot he wide differences in conditions across all of North America.
That is a serious oversimplification. UK railways were definitely not state run for the majority of the eras and certainly aren't today. Even European state subsidized railways are not "state run". Canada has two railroad companies, one taken over by the government early in its history and the other launched with a truly massive subsidy but ostensibly a "private" business.
The apparent "private business" nature of US railroading is also not the whole story.
Besides, none of this is relevant to the state of railroad technology at any given time.
And 25 to 35 year blocks of time considered a single era, here or in Europe, is a serious oversimplification.
Again, as it relates to modeling, it is about a lot more than technological advances or mergers.
wvg_caactually [in my opinion] there are only two eras... steam and diesel ... you just have various alterations on that time frame
Oh no! Then I model BOTH eras!
I model an exact moment in time, but I am in ALL the eras!
I win!
tstageThat said, I'm in agreement with John that 10-year incriments are probably the best and simplest way of definiing eras. When someone says they model the 50s, that gives me a good general idea what their roster is going to be.
You know, we tend to divid things up by the decades in the United States anyway. I grew up in the 80s, my favorite music is from the 40s, and so far, these 20s have been terrible.
That might be the easiest way to do it, but then we would have 15+ eras.
PRR8259 Oh, please, just go by decades in the U.S. There is no way that the "merger" era began in 1980. There were many mergers before then, and one can argue when the "most" mergers of Class 1 railroads actually occurred, and I bet it's well before 1980. It makes more sense from a historical point of view to align the decades with what happened on the rails during each decade. John
Oh, please, just go by decades in the U.S.
There is no way that the "merger" era began in 1980. There were many mergers before then, and one can argue when the "most" mergers of Class 1 railroads actually occurred, and I bet it's well before 1980.
It makes more sense from a historical point of view to align the decades with what happened on the rails during each decade.
John
Agreed, one of the most significant mergers/take overs was the 1965 joining of the B&O and C&O.