I did not want to throw Sheldon's thread off topic again, so I started this new thread.
How many eras are there to choose from?
When I became a model railroader in the 1980s, there wer generally 5 I think.
1) "Modern" which at the time was 1970s and 1980s
2) "Early Diesel" which was 1957 through the 1960s
3) "Transition" which was 1940 through 1956
4) "Golden Age" which would be 1900-1939
5) "Old Timers", 1899 and earlier
So, now that we have another 40 years, are there still five basic eras with just changed dates, or have more eras been added?
Please post your thoughts, and be nice to previous posters who shared their ideas.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Kevin,
Actually, "early diesel" would go back as early as the 30s with the advent of the Alco-GE-IR boxcabs, Alco HHs, and EMD SW1 switchers. Then came the 1st generation diesels - e.g. the EMD E- & F-units, Baldwin VO-660/1000s, Alco RS & F-M road switchers, and EMD GP7/9s. After that were the 2nd generation diesels, which I think would fit more in your "Early Diesel" era timeframe above.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstageActually, "early diesel" would go back as early as the 30s
CN was the first North American RR to operate a couple of diesel's starting in 1924.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Brent,
Were those CN units strictly diesel? Or did they have multi-power capabilities like the boxcabs?
Read all about it here.
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/Various/early_diesels.htm
I have seen many break downs overthe years. There are many eras. I would break it down as:
1. Dawn of railroading 1820-1840s. Vertical boilers, very short cars
2. Civil War 1850-1870s. American type (4-4-0) very prevalent, balloon stacks. Transcontinental railroad
3. Gay nineties 1880-1900. Narrow vestibule passenger cars, bigger locomotives like 4-6-0, 2-8-0. Freight cars get longer 36'
4. Pre WWI 1900-1916. Steam locomotives more streamlined, wide vestibule passenger cars, truss rod starts giving way to steel underframes. RR mileage and passenger service reache their peak. Much merger of small railroads.
5. USRA and Modern Steam 1916-1940. Steam locomotives get big - 4-6-2, 4-8-4, articulateds, 2-8-2, etc. Heavyweight passenger cars, and steel freight cars. Short haul passenger trains decline in favor of the automobile.
6. War and transition 1940-1960. Steam transitions to diesel. Passenger traffic seriously declines. Freight cars modernize.
7. Modern era begins 1960-1980. Steam is gone, wooden cars gone, Amtrak takes over passenger service in 1972.
8. Merger era 1980-2000. Class I railroads merge and consolidate, Conrail disappears. Shortline spinoffs. Large diesels appear. Large freight cars.
9. Container era 2000-present. Container traffic explodes.
Another trend I have noticed since 2000 is the model railroad press has transitioned from a steam bias to a diesel bias.
Paul
My answers is simple, every ten year period is a separate era, because modeling involves more than just the evolution of rail technology or rail business history.
When I started at this in the late 60's there where 6 or 7 "eras".
Today there are nearly twice that many, easily 12, and possibly not significantly more modelers.
This is a major problem for the manufacturers.
Sheldon
It can depend upon how you look at it. It could be about things other than strictly the changes in equipment, IMO. The 60's, 70's, and 80's saw railroads merge. Things were changing other than equipment advances. In contemporary times, there hasn't been a whole lot of change in the 20 years since the turn of the century, at least in terms of outward appearence of the locos or major design changes in rolling stock.
- Douglas
Doughless It can depend upon how you look at it. It could be about things other than strictly the changes in equipment, IMO. The 60's, 70's, and 80's saw railroads merge. Things were changing other than equipment advances. In contemporary times, there hasn't been a whole lot of change in the 20 years since the turn of the century, at least in terms of outward appearence of the locos or major design changes in rolling stock.
Yes, it depends on how you look at it.
I look at model railroading, from the scenery perspective, as being about more than just the trains. I have no interest in narrow shelf layouts that do not include very much non railroad scenery.
So to me model railroading includes structures, autos, billboards, business names, etc, etc, which build the scene and create the context for the trains.
So era is a little more "specific" for me.
Somagain, I see at least 12.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So to me model railroading includes structures, autos, billboards, business names, etc, etc, which build the scene and create the context for the trains. So era is a little more "specific" for me. Sheldon
I’m with Sheldon. To me the actual railroad doesn’t set the era, it’s the structures, vehicles, roads and billboard/signs.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Boy, not to complain but some of those dates seem way off, WW1 started before 1916.
rrebellBoy, not to complain but some of those dates seem way off, WW1 started before 1916.
The start dates for wars are relative to your culture's involvement.
It is generally taught that World War 2 began on 01/SEP/1939, but if you lived in China or Ethiopia you would think the war started well before that. From an American point of view, maybe it was not a World War until 1941.
The same could be said about World War 1, from America's cultural viewpoint, 1916 might be the start even though it had been raging for years already.
End dates can be just a debatable. World War 2 ended on 02/SEP/1945, but when did Vietnam end?
Don't answer that question... that is not a topic for this forum... mentioned for example only.
Early diesel would not begin with the introduction of the first diesel. It would begin with when the first major railroads began a serious effort to dieselize parts of their operations.
I found these eras in an old copy of a model railroad club newsletter, so certainly they would be up for debate.
Feel free to change my list and post better eras and dates.
I would really like to see a list that goes to the present date.
There are no wrong answers so... Please Be Nice.
Paul gave this suggestion, which has the opposite chronology of mine, which is fine. Run from new-to-old or old-to-new. Either is OK.
1) Dawn of railroading 1820-1840s. Vertical boilers, very short cars
2) Civil War 1850-1870s. American type (4-4-0) very prevalent, balloon stacks. Transcontinental railroad
3) Gay nineties 1880-1900. Narrow vestibule passenger cars, bigger locomotives like 4-6-0, 2-8-0. Freight cars get longer 36'
4) Pre WWI 1900-1916. Steam locomotives more streamlined, wide vestibule passenger cars, truss rod starts giving way to steel underframes. RR mileage and passenger service reache their peak. Much merger of small railroads.
5) USRA and Modern Steam 1916-1940. Steam locomotives get big - 4-6-2, 4-8-4, articulateds, 2-8-2, etc. Heavyweight passenger cars, and steel freight cars. Short haul passenger trains decline in favor of the automobile.
6) War and transition 1940-1960. Steam transitions to diesel. Passenger traffic seriously declines. Freight cars modernize.
7) Modern era begins 1960-1980. Steam is gone, wooden cars gone, Amtrak takes over passenger service in 1972.
8) Merger era 1980-2000. Class I railroads merge and consolidate, Conrail disappears. Shortline spinoffs. Large diesels appear. Large freight cars.
9) Container era 2000-present. Container traffic explodes.
I'll offer you guys a thought: while the steam-to-diesel era is commonly referred to as "The Transition Era," there was an earlier period of equipment transition that produced as much variety in equipment types, and that was the era between roughly 1895 and 1925 when the railroads undertook the mass conversion of their fleets from wood to steel.
This conversion process had implications that touched just about every part of the industry. Steel equipment made significantly longer trains possible. Wood had inherent limits as a structural material in tension, and for that reason limited train lengths. Steel equipment was possible prior to 1893, but the passage of the Rail Safety Appliance Act in that year really helped to set the conditions that allowed the industry to realize its opportunity, since air brakes made longer trains an economy of scale proposition.
Those opportunities kick-started a full scale fleet conversion. Hoppers and gons came first, because those offered the best opportunity to dramatically increase tare weight with larger equipment. Boxcars were done more slowly: cars got steel underframes first (because those were the structural components that were needed for longer trains), and then carbodies (because they could be made lighter, which allowed for a better ratio of tare weight to car weight). Refrigerator cars lagged, keeping wood superstructures for much longer, because they were easier to insulate.
Passenger cars came much later, as a general rule, and the conversion process might have lagged even further had the Pennsy not decided to forbid the operation of wooden equipment into New York Penn Station, out of an abundance of caution (nobody wanted to deal with the possibility of wooden equipment burning in tunnels under the river). Once the steel conversion started, of course, Pullman drove it, the East Coast first, and the west thereafter. There are pictures of wooden Pullmans in main trains during WWII, but Pullman culled the wooden fleet heavily during the Depression. Wooden cars ran in some types of passenger service past the end of WWII, with the B&M running open platform wood coaches in commuter service out of Boston for long enough that their replacements were Budd RDC cars (many of them went to Strasburg, where they are still identifiable by the "B&M" cast into truck components).
I haven't touched on changes to workforce or infrastructure that resulted - but they are so substantial that I would suggest we should think of two transition eras - wood to steel, and steam to diesel.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
MidlandPacificI would suggest we should think of two transition eras - wood to steel, and steam to diesel.
There may not be formal 'eras' outside consensus, but there are sure 'eras' in the Kuhnian sense of paradigms. Use of the American type for so long, and formalization of some of its interesting details (like chassis that neatly unbolted in the middle for maintenance) is one such. Alco's attempt to flog 3-cylinder power and Baldwin's with Caprotti in the 1920s might be thought of as another.
There was certainly a radical era change in the years to either side of 1947 where most steam railroads were concerned. The cumulative trend away from passenger rail by the 1950s is a similar example. Adoption of TOFC has been carefully timelined, as has much of the different technology of container intermodal. To pretend that these do not mark modal changes in railroading as it would be modeled is a bit disingenuous.
But -- in a world of 'my railroad, my rules' -- why limit yourself to historical accident? There are all sorts of 'there but for chance' things that could have made railroading different: we might as easily speculate 'more affordably' about a world where steam railcars became as prevalent as they were shaping up to be before 1857 and 1861, or where the Essl locomotive was perfected and marketed, or where high-speed mass transit caught on and was built after the '60s promotion in the Johnson administration. It's what you think is important or meaningful ...
Here's the European time period Eras.
Era 1: Approx 1870-1925/or 1835-1925 Country and Private railways.
Era 2: Approx 1920-1945/or 1925-1945 The period after the formation of larger railways.
Era 3: Approx 1945-1970 The new organization of European railroads.
Era 4: Approx 1968-1985/or 1970-1990 Standardized computer lettering on all rolling stock and locks.
Era 5: Approx 1985-2000/or 1990-2006 The modern era of railroading.
Era 6: 2006-present The liberation of new requirements of locomotives and cars.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
No matter how you set "era," for the prototype modeler you likely need to slice and dice it even finer. For example most railroads you can learn a very precise day, or at least week, which you can say was the last day a steam locomotive operated in regular service on the system, and it tends to fall within a decade (meaning the year doesn't always end with 0 or 5) and does not fall neatly within the usual "era" definition. (And then there are railroads where sure you can state that date and then find some odd exception, such as the Northern Pacific reactivating one of their articulateds to tamp down some newly laid trackage, or the Union Pacific bringing out a ratty looking 4-6-6-4 to help melt snow in the mid 1960s, that sort of thing.)
Some key dates are established by government or AAR regulation: last dates for K brake systems, for wood underframe/truss rods, for archbar trucks, for Billboard reefers, for chilled iron wheels, solid bearing trucks, and the list goes on. Those tended to be precise calendar dates. Also precise are the dates this or that passenger train had its last run, such as the CNW's 400. And of course the start up of Amtrak was a very precise date.
And then there are some dates that just are not known. When did the very last single sheathed wood boxcar leave interchange service? The very last double sheathed boxcar? The last freight car with wood running boards?
In his book Creative Layout Design John Armstrong has a cleverly analyzed chart of railroad "eras" which tends to look at some key technological changes, like when air brakes or Janney couplers took hold, that sort of thing.
And the farther away we get from our own era it seems the more we are inclined to lump larger and larger time spans together as an "era." But as students of freight car and locomotive technology know, quite a bit of change happened between, say, 1880 and 1900. To us however that 20 year period just tends to blend together UNLESS you yourself have a special interest or special knowledge of the era. The more you know the more even a five year "era" is too broad and too sloppy
Dave Nelson
dknelson No matter how you set "era," for the prototype modeler you likely need to slice and dice it even finer. For example most railroads you can learn a very precise day, or at least week, which you can say was the last day a steam locomotive operated in regular service on the system, and it tends to fall within a decade (meaning the year doesn't always end with 0 or 5) and does not fall neatly within the usual "era" definition. (And then there are railroads where sure you can state that date and then find some odd exception, such as the Northern Pacific reactivating one of their articulateds to tamp down some newly laid trackage, or the Union Pacific bringing out a ratty looking 4-6-6-4 to help melt snow in the mid 1960s, that sort of thing.) Some key dates are established by government or AAR regulation: last dates for K brake systems, for wood underframe/truss rods, for archbar trucks, for Billboard reefers, for chilled iron wheels, solid bearing trucks, and the list goes on. Those tended to be precise calendar dates. Also precise are the dates this or that passenger train had its last run, such as the CNW's 400. And of course the start up of Amtrak was a very precise date. And then there are some dates that just are not known. When did the very last single sheathed wood boxcar leave interchange service? The very last double sheathed boxcar? The last freight car with wood running boards? In his book Creative Layout Design John Armstrong has a cleverly analyzed chart of railroad "eras" which tends to look at some key technological changes, like when air brakes or Janney couplers took hold, that sort of thing. And the farther away we get from our own era it seems the more we are inclined to lump larger and larger time spans together as an "era." But as students of freight car and locomotive technology know, quite a bit of change happened between, say, 1880 and 1900. To us however that 20 year period just tends to blend together UNLESS you yourself have a special interest or special knowledge of the era. The more you know the more even a five year "era" is too broad and too sloppy Dave Nelson
Completely agreed.
In additon to my own sensiblity about scenery/structures, I considered suggesting five year era "blocks" when I first responded.
angelob6660 Here's the European time period Eras. Era 1: Approx 1870-1925/or 1835-1925 Country and Private railways. Era 2: Approx 1920-1945/or 1925-1945 The period after the formation of larger railways. Era 3: Approx 1945-1970 The new organization of European railroads. Era 4: Approx 1968-1985/or 1970-1990 Standardized computer lettering on all rolling stock and locks. Era 5: Approx 1985-2000/or 1990-2006 The modern era of railroading. Era 6: 2006-present The liberation of new requirements of locomotives and cars.
Europe and North America have nothing in common on this topic.
In Europe and the UK, railroads are state run and standardization easily marks point of major change and tends to create longer periods between change.
North America thru most of the 20th Century, 400 plus different major carriers all developing equipment and having different operational requirements do tot he wide differences in conditions across all of North America.
Oh, please, just go by decades in the U.S.
There is no way that the "merger" era began in 1980. There were many mergers before then, and one can argue when the "most" mergers of Class 1 railroads actually occurred, and I bet it's well before 1980.
It makes more sense from a historical point of view to align the decades with what happened on the rails during each decade.
John
SeeYou190Early diesel would not begin with the introduction of the first diesel. It would begin with when the first major railroads began a serious effort to dieselize parts of their operations.
If that's your definition then early diesel should start with the beginning of the transition period (1940) because there were a whole slew of diesels purchased over that time period. I would consider that a "serious effort".
That said, I'm in agreement with John that 10-year incriments are probably the best and simplest way of definiing eras. When someone says they model the 50s, that gives me a good general idea what their roster is going to be. The only questions that might come to mind: Is steam included?...Or is it just all diesel?
actually [in my opinion] there are only two eras... steam and diesel ...
you just have various alterations on that time frame
PRR8259 Oh, please, just go by decades in the U.S. There is no way that the "merger" era began in 1980. There were many mergers before then, and one can argue when the "most" mergers of Class 1 railroads actually occurred, and I bet it's well before 1980. It makes more sense from a historical point of view to align the decades with what happened on the rails during each decade. John
Agreed, one of the most significant mergers/take overs was the 1965 joining of the B&O and C&O.
wvg_caactually [in my opinion] there are only two eras... steam and diesel ... you just have various alterations on that time frame
Oh no! Then I model BOTH eras!
I model an exact moment in time, but I am in ALL the eras!
I win!
tstageThat said, I'm in agreement with John that 10-year incriments are probably the best and simplest way of definiing eras. When someone says they model the 50s, that gives me a good general idea what their roster is going to be.
You know, we tend to divid things up by the decades in the United States anyway. I grew up in the 80s, my favorite music is from the 40s, and so far, these 20s have been terrible.
That might be the easiest way to do it, but then we would have 15+ eras.
Lastspikemike ATLANTIC CENTRAL angelob6660 Here's the European time period Eras. Era 1: Approx 1870-1925/or 1835-1925 Country and Private railways. Era 2: Approx 1920-1945/or 1925-1945 The period after the formation of larger railways. Era 3: Approx 1945-1970 The new organization of European railroads. Era 4: Approx 1968-1985/or 1970-1990 Standardized computer lettering on all rolling stock and locks. Era 5: Approx 1985-2000/or 1990-2006 The modern era of railroading. Era 6: 2006-present The liberation of new requirements of locomotives and cars. Europe and North America have nothing in common on this topic. In Europe and the UK, railroads are state run and standardization easily marks point of major change and tends to create longer periods between change. North America thru most of the 20th Century, 400 plus different major carriers all developing equipment and having different operational requirements do tot he wide differences in conditions across all of North America. Sheldon That is a serious oversimplification. UK railways were definitely not state run for the majority of the eras and certainly aren't today. Even European state subsidized railways are not "state run". Canada has two railroad companies, one taken over by the government early in its history and the other launched with a truly massive subsidy but ostensibly a "private" business. The apparent "private business" nature of US railroading is also not the whole story. Besides, none of this is relevant to the state of railroad technology at any given time.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL angelob6660 Here's the European time period Eras. Era 1: Approx 1870-1925/or 1835-1925 Country and Private railways. Era 2: Approx 1920-1945/or 1925-1945 The period after the formation of larger railways. Era 3: Approx 1945-1970 The new organization of European railroads. Era 4: Approx 1968-1985/or 1970-1990 Standardized computer lettering on all rolling stock and locks. Era 5: Approx 1985-2000/or 1990-2006 The modern era of railroading. Era 6: 2006-present The liberation of new requirements of locomotives and cars. Europe and North America have nothing in common on this topic. In Europe and the UK, railroads are state run and standardization easily marks point of major change and tends to create longer periods between change. North America thru most of the 20th Century, 400 plus different major carriers all developing equipment and having different operational requirements do tot he wide differences in conditions across all of North America. Sheldon
That is a serious oversimplification. UK railways were definitely not state run for the majority of the eras and certainly aren't today. Even European state subsidized railways are not "state run". Canada has two railroad companies, one taken over by the government early in its history and the other launched with a truly massive subsidy but ostensibly a "private" business.
The apparent "private business" nature of US railroading is also not the whole story.
Besides, none of this is relevant to the state of railroad technology at any given time.
And 25 to 35 year blocks of time considered a single era, here or in Europe, is a serious oversimplification.
Again, as it relates to modeling, it is about a lot more than technological advances or mergers.
rrebell Boy, not to complain but some of those dates seem way off, WW1 started before 1916.
U.S. declared war in April 1917.
All dates are arbitrary, depending on your viewpoint.
PRR8259There is no way that the "merger" era began in 1980. There were many mergers before then, and one can argue when the "most" mergers of Class 1 railroads actually occurred, and I bet it's well before 1980.
While mergers happen all the time, the last 2 decades of the 20th Century are when the big companies in the U.S. merged together - CSX, NS, BNSF, UP (with SP), KCS. And when Conrail was divided between CSX and NS. These railroads along with CN and CP (both of which are Canadian railroads that have some presence in the U.S.) and Amtrak are the current class 1 railroads in the U.S.
Personally, I don't think of Amtrak as a class 1 because so much of it operates on railroads they don't own, but the criteria is revenue not miles of trackage.
So for me the 1980's to 2000 are the merger era - perhaps I should say the Mega RR Merger Era.
But as others have noted, everyone has their own way of looking at it.
*** WARNING Humor (supposedly) follows ***
I suppose another way to break it down is to have 3 eras :
1. The years before most of my stuff existed.
2. The years most of my stuff existed.
3. The years after most of my stuff was gone.
or 2 eras:
1. The years I like.
2. The years I don't like.
*** End Of Humor ***
Interesting topic. Personally, I enjoy reading everyone's take on eras. It reflects the great diversity of the hobby that is united by our love of model trains.
There is yet another era that I call the ConRail era 1976-1998 due to the mega merers of that time frame and the growth of new short lines based on railroads selling or leasing unwanted trackage..We can not overlook the rebirth of the boxcar in late 70s that includes Railbox.
During the CR era we saw the last EMD Geep(GP60 and its subclasses) as well as the birth of the modern GEs and EMDs and the demised of the caboose.
So,the CR era is a sufficent time frame in the annuals of railroad hstory.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
IRONROOSTER *** WARNING Humor (supposedly) follows *** I suppose another way to break it down is to have 3 eras : 1. The years before most of my stuff existed. 2. The years most of my stuff existed. 3. The years after most of my stuff was gone.
Very often I find myself looking at the hobby exactly like that. I tend to refer to anything built after 1956 as being "modern", and that point of view simply does not work.
Great point, humor and all.
Overmod Why leave out the era of transition to power air brakes, or knuckle couplers from link-and-pin? Or the transition from weird hook-and-gab valve gear to link, and then later to radial valve gear and piston valves and superheat? Or the balancing revolution that made Super-Power meaningful after 1928?
Why leave out the era of transition to power air brakes, or knuckle couplers from link-and-pin? Or the transition from weird hook-and-gab valve gear to link, and then later to radial valve gear and piston valves and superheat? Or the balancing revolution that made Super-Power meaningful after 1928?
Actually, these innovations are all intimately wrapped up in the transition from wood to steel. This probably isn't anyone's particular interest here but mine, but the best brief description I have ever found was written by the late Bob Sloan in his "A Century + Ten of D&RGW Narrow Gauge Freight Cars." His intro includes a section called "The Interstate Commerce Commission and Narrow Gauge Rolling Stock." Probably of serious interest only to those of us who are modeling at the intersection of multiple regulatory requirements for car marking and safety appliances, but a great explanation of how much happened, and how it was tied to fleet development.
I agree with the idea that we can sort of invent categories and classifications of many types, depending on what we choose to examine, but I think if you really want to classify the industry by changes in equipment types, there are really three big periods that completely transformed fleets (and, to some extent, infrastructure): Wood to steel, steam to diesel, and containerization. I think the first is in many ways the most transformational, because it brought infrastructure changes that the industry has been living off of ever since. For example, as train weights started to rise after 1900, most railroads completely rebuilt their infrastructure to accomodate not just the weights they could forsee, but those they imagined they might have to accomodate. They built so strongly that, a century later, the industry is still living off their investments.