RIVET COUNTING, GOOD or BAD?

[PennsyHoosier]

I'm not a rivet counter, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

There's nothing wrong with rivet counting if that's what floats your boat. It only becomes a problem when you start to see "patterns" and "codes" for explaining the universe in the rivets.

Now that I think about it, I'm going to write a novel based on the rivets of a K4s. A sort of PRR take-off of the DaVinci Code. It will be about as historically accurate as that book, too. [}:)]

[trolleyboy]

To rivet or not to rivet what a question. Personally I model canadian prototype so you can count rivets but in my case there in the wrong place anyway .Therefore I and a great many others put up with close enough move on and have fun if we were to make everything completly perfect none of us would have time to lay track and enjoy our handywork. I think you have to pick your own level of detail and let others do their thing in the end we are all happy and we have all contributed to the greatest hobby on earth. TB

[Jetrock]

The eye is the best judge and the easiest to fool--heck, we're all trying to create the illusion that these teeny little trains are full-sized! I

[howmus]

One of the great things about modeling a railroad that never existed is that you really don't need to count rivets (I hear some rivets now and then, but that is from the frogs in the pond - or are they "ribets"?). However, it is still fun to do some historical reasearch in the era and area that the pike is supposed to be from. Some of the greatest layouts are those that never existed as prototypes but have a great deal of attention to detail.

BTW, easter, there actually was some 2-6-4 locos. They were called "Adriatic". None were ever found in North America and they were very rare, but they did exist. My point is that almost anything someone does in modeling probably actauly existed somewhere at some time. I personally like to "count rivets" on my own layout, but find it interesting and great that this hobby can be for everyone.

Have fun out there! [:)]

Ray

[grayfox1119]

There are all degrees of quality, and you find this not only in our hobby, but in everything in life that man does (or woman). Speaking only of this hobby, some people take great pride in being true scale, and accurate to the 9th degree. I don't critize them for this, because it is what THEY want, and maybe it makes them really happy with their work.
Others want to set up and operate. They are more interested in running a railroad. Still other just like to build a nice layout, enjoy the aspects of designing and operating theri own layout.
As we all know, this question has no right or wrong answer because it is extremely subjective. For me, I am not a rivet counter. Why? Because I want to design, build, operate and enjoy before I die (66 YO). For those that are.......enjoy yourself, it is YOUR decision.

***

[vsmith]

My goal is to have a realistic looking railroad, which means that I'll base my judgements on what level of detail I am happy with, and not worry about what others might think. I'll be the judge of how accurate I want my stuff to look. I want realism, not rivet counting mouth foaming accuracy. I'm not modeling any prototypical RR just for that reason. It gives me the freedom to model based on my own eye's judgement.
Example

an LGB 8-10ton Porter , not a hugely accurate model to start with, original garish plasticy colors painted over, some added details and moderate weathering and its now far more realistic looking.

[johncolley]

An offshoot of this theme unfortunately applies to life it seems. There is altogether too much of an "us vs them" mentality. Why can't we all just enjoy our hobby in all its forms and appreciate craftsmanship when we encounter it, while allowing others the enjoyment of their round and round, if that's what pleases them?

[Anonymous]

Wooden Boilers wouldn't rust either :)

[Anonymous]

Wooden Boilers... disposable power. Maintaince free and no need to service after use.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeSchane

Generally riveted materials are metallic and hard to get to burn without excessive heat (this is why steel steam engine boilers were so popular).

Oh, but the less popular wooden boilers were so much more fun!

[Jetrock]

One feature of wooden construction of this sort, I have noted, is that potential for flame and structural strength tend to be inversely proportionate.

[Anonymous]

HEY Y'ALL. I'M IN THIS FOR THE PLEASURE,MY PLEASURE. YOU SEE,I'M INTO HI-RAIL. I KNOW THAT'S A DIRTY WORD TO THE PURIST OUT THERE,BUT NO MATTER. ONE OF MY FAVORITE LOCOMOTIVES IS A 2-6-4 THAT I RUN. NOW WE ALL KNOW THERE WAS NO SUCH THING,BUT HAS LONG AS I HAVN'T TOLD THE LITTLE PEOPLE ON MY LAYOUT ABOUT THAT, I DON'T THINK THEY WILL CARE. Y'ALL ENJOY NOW & TAKE CARE.

[Anonymous]

Dkelly, You had to challenge me didn't you!

I have to say all the flaming posts I've seen were made from wood and are not riveted. Generally riveted materials are metallic and hard to get to burn without excessive heat (this is why steel steam engine boilers were so popular). Wood construction is far superior for flaming posts. Personally I like cresote treated posts (RR ties are good).

[Anonymous]

I'll have to agree with Paul on this. Bob is a super modeler, beyond what I ever hope to accomplish, but "around 1500 rivits" don't cut it. Sorry. lol.

I have to say that this has been a great thread. Rivit counters and non rivit counters (even semi-Rivit Counters) have posted. I've read about different approaches taken by lots of folks, some differences of opinions etc. But what makes it real cool is that there wasn't a flaming post anywheres!

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

I scratchbuilt a Canadian National double ended snow plow several years ago in HO scale. It has around 1500 rivets that I applied using a NWSL Rivet Tool. Does that make me a reivet counter?

Bob Boudreau

"around 1500 rivets" - Sorry no. A real rivet counter knows exactly how many rivets there are.[:D][:D]

Enjoy
Paul

[TurboOne]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeSchane

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's rivets!

Way to go Deschane ! I was waiting for someone on here to start the great debate. And then you had to go and have such a great answer, we can't even fight over it.

I agree with SpaceMouse, I am a freelancer. I was one that need trains running instantly, if not sooner. Waiting from day of returning to hobby, Dec 14 or so, til Christmas about killed me and the kids. while patience is a virtue for us "big kids", it isn't to a 6 and 9 year old. I still need to find a steam engine that I can paint Pink, like they have in lionel O gauge. But we had running trains. Now we play, then we add, clean, build. When 6 year old is tired, we play.

Now I love real. I am so mad at you rivit counters, I now notice the difference in play sets and real trains. And sound has become a must. Thanks Terry ! And we can't cheat with green tissue paper for more than a week. Hey it was grass for a while. And yes I want that BLI fully loaded fleet of engines. And being I havent wired the system now I want DCC. There goes the "free" hobby. But it looks and sounds so great, I do thank the "veterans" for all their help. But like Deshane and the rest have said summed up " Do it positively. " My kids and I really enjoy hearing about how you fixed up your train, your layout, and how you made that special item that you love. But don't laugh at my 6 year olds Thomas, it also is important to him. (Go space mouse and Hogwarts) Tell me how you use DCC for all the cool accessories you have that enhance the layout you have, but don't laugh at my daughters pink engine. If that is what gets here excited, cool. My favorite part of my sons layout is he is into pigs. They ride on top of his desiel engine, above the cab so they can drive the train. They also ride on his missle car, and his searchlight car. Busy pigs. Thomas and the gang are giving a lot of pigs rides. A pig even operates cranky the crane. But they will learn, and they already appreciate others works. Thanks to the rivit counters they are willing to start building some buildings, and we will grow from there.

Have a great day

Tim

P. S. Jetrock I have always appreciated your comments, and you are positive, thanks for the great welcome back when I was new ! [8D]

[twhite]

Hey, if I can retire from a 45 year career as a classical vocal and choral accompanist and survive 45 years of Music Critics (most of whom couldn't even BEGIN to play some of the music I've performed), I can sure as HELL survive a Rivet Counter! But if someone sees something I've done on the model railroad and has some helpful hints about how I might improve it after I ask, well Buddy, I'm all ears. It's all in the attitude. I like an offered helping hand, but if someone sneers and tells me that the Rio Grande didn't own 2-8-8-4's, I'll just smile back and say, "Well, they do NOW!"
Tom [}:)][}:)][}:)]

[Jetrock]

If you think that there aren't Middle-Earth "rivet counters" you haven't been involved with SF/fantasy fandom (or followed the online dissections of Peter Jackson's adaptations of the LotR trilogy!). And the Smurfs don't live in a castle, they live in little cottages like this:

Gargamel lives in a castle.

*cracks knuckles and adjusts rivet-counting calipers*

[Anonymous]

Soooo, How many rivets in a Smurf Castle draw bridge? Where can I find accurate pictures of Middle Earth? Rivet counting has its place. Find YOUR place and ignore the rest. I appreciate the RC'rs when I want to know how it looked, operated, used and how they've raised the awareness of differences and practices. All an improvement to the hobby. I also appreciate it when RC'rs have enough sense to keep it to themselves until it's asked.

[Jetrock]

I generally try only to count other rivets when asked...but if someone starts a thread asking "Can you count my rivets, please?" (more often phrased "NEWB NEEDZ HELP PLZ") I consider it an open invitation to count the rivets. I do try to keep it positive when possible--but I have my limits!!

[Anonymous]

I love being a rivet counter. It helps me to critique my work in the ever on-going battle to improve my modelling skills. I hate being a rivet counter. I do not make any negative comments about anything when visiting someone elses layout. Unless I have full knowledge of, a deep and abiding friendship with, and a total trust of a modeller, I will not offer a critique of anyones modelling even when asked. People generally ask your opinion about their work seeking praise, not the truth. Best to comment on positive items and leave the negativity die in limbo. This is, of course, just my opinion, but it seems to mesh with most of the responses on this post.

Tom

[Anonymous]

I scratchbuilt a Canadian National double ended snow plow several years ago in HO scale. It has around 1500 rivets that I applied using a NWSL Rivet Tool. Does that make me a reivet counter?

Bob Boudreau

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ebriley

Antonio, you are right. I have become a large fan of Tony Koester, even though I have never met him. I have learned a great deal from his columns, as you have. I'm going to miss the Allegheny Midland and may never be able to muster the same kind of enthusiam for the Nickle Plate division that is replacing it, but Tony is a thinker and a doer. His ideas are worth our consideration at a minimum.

I am going to miss his Midland, but I'm looking forward to see how he does with his new railroad. It can only be better.

[:D][;)]

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

I want rivet counters to restore steam locomotives in real life. At least I can see everything will work as it should in real life. Such passion for perfection and energy of industry that is so focused with clarity of purpose among some of us should be better employed in restoring old steam engines. So that they will perform as well as they were designed to.

They can start with SP #4294!

[Anonymous]

I believe a rivet counter must count his own rivets, not others and it is ok.

[Anonymous]

I want rivet counters to restore steam locomotives in real life. At least I can see everything will work as it should in real life. Such passion for perfection and energy of industry that is so focused with clarity of purpose among some of us should be better employed in restoring old steam engines. So that they will perform as well as they were designed to.

[Leon Silverman]

I once had a boss with a Masters degree in engineering who did not know the difference between arrogant and ignorant and persisted in using the term "irregardless". I ordinarily would not pay attention to these mistakes, except that he also claimed to be a "master of the English language". For this reason, I constantly reminded him every time he used "irregardless" in front of me. After a while, if he couldn't stop using the word, he at least remembered that it it wasn't proper English.
In this hobby, any manufacturer who claims to offer a model that is scaled exactly from blueprints or is an exact replica is inviting his customers to count his rivets or point out mistakes in the running gear of a steam engine. This is good because it provides that the basis for upgrading that model in later additions.
On the other hand, when someone takes two or three years to scratchbuild, out of brass, a locomotive, that is an effort that most of us couldn't or wouldn't undertake. We should comment on the overall appearance or impression of that model, not on any missing or incorrect detail.
Speaking of missing rivets, I find it regrettable that all of the current mass produced articulated steam engines have forsaken protypical articulation in order to permit these HO models to operate on 18" or 22" radius curves. I realize this feature increases the marketability of the models but don't call them accurate models, particularly since all the reviews claim the model looks a lot better on the larger radii that normal articulation would handle anyway.

[n2mopac]

For me its like this: I often go to train shows and see display modules and think "I could do better." But I would never go up to the guy and say that. Nor do I expect to have people see my modeling and start shoving unsolicited cirticisms down my throat. I know that my modeling would not meet the standards of many, and I'm ok with that. If I want a critique to improve I'll ask. There are not many who are guilty of this, but there are some. To those I say simply, "You count our rivets, I'll count mine."

Ron

[Anonymous]

Antonio, you are right. I have become a large fan of Tony Koester, even though I have never met him. I have learned a great deal from his columns, as you have. I'm going to miss the Allegheny Midland and may never be able to muster the same kind of enthusiam for the Nickle Plate division that is replacing it, but Tony is a thinker and a doer. His ideas are worth our consideration at a minimum.