RIVET COUNTING, GOOD or BAD?

[Anonymous]

I hear people talk about being a RIVET COUNTER as being a bad thing. I would say that if the definition of the phrase includes the necessity of being judgmental about the work of others, then yes, it is bad to be a RIVET COUNTER! After all, who died and left you in charge!?! If you use the term to judge your own work and use it as a method of attempting to do a better job on the next project you are working on, then it is a good thing! I love to build models which are as realistic as I can make them, and I enjoy looking at the work of others, attempting to do the same thing.

The only time one should be judgmental about the work of others is when asked to judge their work! Then, when doing so, one needs to be very sensitive about how the judging is done and what is expressed to the one asking to have their work judged.

Some people are incapable of any sensitivity of any kind and should never be placed in a position to judge the work of others. They see things only from their own myopic point of view and believe the world is just waiting for their splendiforious words of wisdom! These are the RIVET COUNTERS which give the term it's bad connotation! What type of RIVET COUNTER are you?

[Anonymous]

Mark,

I must admit that I was a little apprehensive when I saw the title of this thread. But upon reading your post I have to say I agree totally!

Rivit Counting is not a bad thing unless like you say it is used to criticize the way other folks decide to have fun in this hobby. I do not consider myself a rivit counter. I am happy if I can get a model to look close to the prototype I am trying to emulate. Perhaps as my skills increase I'll become a vivit counter. To be honest, I think those that can make a model that is accurate to the nth degree are to be admired for their skill, knowledge and pursuit of excellence. This admiration, though, comes crashing down when they adopt a "holier than thou" attitude. I will admit, however, that I haven't run into too many of these - which is a good thing.

Of course the rivit counters that are tops in my book are those that use their skill and knowledge to educate the rest of us. Not with a "this is the only way to do it" approach, but with a "you may want to try this" approach. Luckily this hobby seems to have very many folks that are truly great modelers and who are willing to share with the rest of us. Those willing to share to help others are what makes this hobby great.

Just my .02.

[dknelson]

Some rivet counting can be quite constructive; sometimes it is a snide tone that puts us off.
Critical commentary on model railroad products has increased the quality and accuracy of what is available to us. Note for example the review of the new Trix/Maerklin NYC caboose in MR. The model seems to be a good one but has some serious deviations from accuracy. I expect future runs to have at least some of these flaws corrected (such as the height of the stack, although the lack of curved edges at the ends might be beyond correction).
Thanks to rivet counters we have access to a lot more information about freight car trucks, doors, ends, roofs, roof walks, side panels and a host of other stuff. Believe me almost nobody was talking about this stuff in the early 1960s. Very few were counting ribs on a hopper or end corrugations and darts on a gondola. (Although to be fair, model parts of different doors, ends, roofs etc etc were all available -- but most people tended to just slap stuff together because it looked neat or because it happened to be in their scrap box at the time. Nobody wanted to be inaccurate. People cared. But the needed info was just not easy to come by. So when somebody did do perfectly accurate work, there was also nobody to praise them for it or to point out how accurate they had been.
On the other hand I have seen comments about someone's scratch build structures that were not constructive and were obviously just pure jealousy -- PHRASED in the tone of a rivet counter but really no such thing.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

Mark, well said. I totally agree with your stand. [2c]

[orsonroy]

Rivet counting good.
Freelancing good.
Playing with toy trains good.

Being a hobby snob of any stripe bad.

[Anonymous]

As noted elsewhere in this forum - most rivit counters that I know don't have a layout as they can't get it all together. They spend so much time with the details that they can't see the overall picture. Granted they've improved our products but they better not come to my house.

My layout is MY world. I like my old Central Valley, Varney and Silver Streak cars.

Bob

[SpaceMouse]

Rivit counting can be endearing in an Adrian Monk sort of way. Personally, I don' t think I can ever be anything but a freelancer. I mean, I'm going to have Hogwarts in a 1880's Northern Caliornia redwood forest with a 1910 locomotive painted with an 1880's color scheme on a line that wasn't going to actually work the area for another 40 years.

Rivit count that.

But, I can certainly understand wanting to get gnat's butt realism. What it comes down to for me is:

ALL ABOARD!!

[n2mopac]

I think we have the right idea here. I believe always striving to imporve your modeling, working to produce higher quality is a very good thing. The rivet counting has to apply to your own modeling, however, and not spill over into cirticism of other who may not have your level of skill, or may have different priorities and interests in the hobby than you do. I guess what I'm trying to say is, "Count your own rivets and leave your neighbor's rivets to him."

Ron

[BRAKIE]

Contrary to popular belief rivet counters did not change the quality or the details of the models we have today...This actually got started in the 60s when the brass steam engines was highly detailed and the brass diesels was not.Finally brass diesels became highly detail...
Then the question was ask why can't this be done with plastic diesels??
ALL manufacturers said that a highly detail plastic locomotives could not be done because of the tooling costs..
One company showed the modeling world it COULD be done...A basic TOY TRAIN SET manufacturer produce the very first highly detailed plastic locomotive.That locomotive was a BL2 ...Produce by none other then Life Like as the first in the P2K line of locomotives..
Fast forward to today and yes rivet counters has help manufacturers correct mistakes but no one group can claim they help get the hobby where it is today..WE as modelers accomplished that by asking for highly detailed locomotives.

[Anonymous]

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's rivets!

[mikebonellisr]

I'm only a rivet counter when it comes to my own modeling.It does get a little frustrating that by the lack of some skills,Mr Magoo eyesight,Fred Flintstone fingers,I can't match the work of the ladies[?] that put together those beautiful brass models in the far east.I can never get my pipeing and details as straight and plumb as I first envision when I start a project.I am inspired by the level of modeling that some "rivet counters" have attained.In many ways they have raised the standards of the modelers and model producers.When they critique my work,I don't mind constructive critisism.Often they are right,so it helps me to make my work more acurate...I just consider the source when a critic is mean spirited or what I may consider overly critical and unrealistic.

[CPPedler]

I think it is all a matter of personal choice , if you are working for a Museum as I do and you are building a specific locomotive that might be well known and you are working from photographs then it does need to be spot on and everything visible should be there. If I am building something for myself then I do tend to be not quite as cautious as I might be for someone else . If it is a steam outline model then at the end of the day it still has an electric motor inside it . PLS

[SpaceMouse]

We're not going to start singing Kumbaya are we?

[AntonioFP45]

OrsonRoy put it so well.

Some Rivet counters can be quite valueable to those in the hobby striving for "reasonable accuracy".

One of my favorite Rivet Couters is Tony Koester. When I first started reading his columns years back, I thought at first he was being snobbish. But as I continued to read his editorials, I grew to realize that he was helping modelers to advance in the hobby and in fact he has a rather humble attitude.

Because of Mr. Koester, I grew to appreciate how much fun running a model railroad "prototypical style" could be: Detailing locomotives, having a "Theme" and time period for your railroad, selecting a specific region to model, dispatching, assigning locomotives according to train weight and or terrain, selecting industries that your railroad will serve.

Reading Tony's columns, IMHO, can help a newbie graduate from just watching trains run in a circle, to operating a transportation system.

Now he's a Rivet Counter with class! [:)][:D][8D][8)][C=:-)][C):-)][4:-)][tup]

[Anonymous]

Antonio, you are right. I have become a large fan of Tony Koester, even though I have never met him. I have learned a great deal from his columns, as you have. I'm going to miss the Allegheny Midland and may never be able to muster the same kind of enthusiam for the Nickle Plate division that is replacing it, but Tony is a thinker and a doer. His ideas are worth our consideration at a minimum.

[n2mopac]

For me its like this: I often go to train shows and see display modules and think "I could do better." But I would never go up to the guy and say that. Nor do I expect to have people see my modeling and start shoving unsolicited cirticisms down my throat. I know that my modeling would not meet the standards of many, and I'm ok with that. If I want a critique to improve I'll ask. There are not many who are guilty of this, but there are some. To those I say simply, "You count our rivets, I'll count mine."

Ron

[Leon Silverman]

I once had a boss with a Masters degree in engineering who did not know the difference between arrogant and ignorant and persisted in using the term "irregardless". I ordinarily would not pay attention to these mistakes, except that he also claimed to be a "master of the English language". For this reason, I constantly reminded him every time he used "irregardless" in front of me. After a while, if he couldn't stop using the word, he at least remembered that it it wasn't proper English.
In this hobby, any manufacturer who claims to offer a model that is scaled exactly from blueprints or is an exact replica is inviting his customers to count his rivets or point out mistakes in the running gear of a steam engine. This is good because it provides that the basis for upgrading that model in later additions.
On the other hand, when someone takes two or three years to scratchbuild, out of brass, a locomotive, that is an effort that most of us couldn't or wouldn't undertake. We should comment on the overall appearance or impression of that model, not on any missing or incorrect detail.
Speaking of missing rivets, I find it regrettable that all of the current mass produced articulated steam engines have forsaken protypical articulation in order to permit these HO models to operate on 18" or 22" radius curves. I realize this feature increases the marketability of the models but don't call them accurate models, particularly since all the reviews claim the model looks a lot better on the larger radii that normal articulation would handle anyway.

[Anonymous]

I want rivet counters to restore steam locomotives in real life. At least I can see everything will work as it should in real life. Such passion for perfection and energy of industry that is so focused with clarity of purpose among some of us should be better employed in restoring old steam engines. So that they will perform as well as they were designed to.

[Anonymous]

I believe a rivet counter must count his own rivets, not others and it is ok.

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

I want rivet counters to restore steam locomotives in real life. At least I can see everything will work as it should in real life. Such passion for perfection and energy of industry that is so focused with clarity of purpose among some of us should be better employed in restoring old steam engines. So that they will perform as well as they were designed to.

They can start with SP #4294!

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ebriley

Antonio, you are right. I have become a large fan of Tony Koester, even though I have never met him. I have learned a great deal from his columns, as you have. I'm going to miss the Allegheny Midland and may never be able to muster the same kind of enthusiam for the Nickle Plate division that is replacing it, but Tony is a thinker and a doer. His ideas are worth our consideration at a minimum.

I am going to miss his Midland, but I'm looking forward to see how he does with his new railroad. It can only be better.

[:D][;)]

[Anonymous]

I scratchbuilt a Canadian National double ended snow plow several years ago in HO scale. It has around 1500 rivets that I applied using a NWSL Rivet Tool. Does that make me a reivet counter?

Bob Boudreau

[Anonymous]

I love being a rivet counter. It helps me to critique my work in the ever on-going battle to improve my modelling skills. I hate being a rivet counter. I do not make any negative comments about anything when visiting someone elses layout. Unless I have full knowledge of, a deep and abiding friendship with, and a total trust of a modeller, I will not offer a critique of anyones modelling even when asked. People generally ask your opinion about their work seeking praise, not the truth. Best to comment on positive items and leave the negativity die in limbo. This is, of course, just my opinion, but it seems to mesh with most of the responses on this post.

Tom

[Jetrock]

I generally try only to count other rivets when asked...but if someone starts a thread asking "Can you count my rivets, please?" (more often phrased "NEWB NEEDZ HELP PLZ") I consider it an open invitation to count the rivets. I do try to keep it positive when possible--but I have my limits!!

[Anonymous]

Soooo, How many rivets in a Smurf Castle draw bridge? Where can I find accurate pictures of Middle Earth? Rivet counting has its place. Find YOUR place and ignore the rest. I appreciate the RC'rs when I want to know how it looked, operated, used and how they've raised the awareness of differences and practices. All an improvement to the hobby. I also appreciate it when RC'rs have enough sense to keep it to themselves until it's asked.

[Jetrock]

If you think that there aren't Middle-Earth "rivet counters" you haven't been involved with SF/fantasy fandom (or followed the online dissections of Peter Jackson's adaptations of the LotR trilogy!). And the Smurfs don't live in a castle, they live in little cottages like this:

Gargamel lives in a castle.

*cracks knuckles and adjusts rivet-counting calipers*

[twhite]

Hey, if I can retire from a 45 year career as a classical vocal and choral accompanist and survive 45 years of Music Critics (most of whom couldn't even BEGIN to play some of the music I've performed), I can sure as HELL survive a Rivet Counter! But if someone sees something I've done on the model railroad and has some helpful hints about how I might improve it after I ask, well Buddy, I'm all ears. It's all in the attitude. I like an offered helping hand, but if someone sneers and tells me that the Rio Grande didn't own 2-8-8-4's, I'll just smile back and say, "Well, they do NOW!"
Tom [}:)][}:)][}:)]

[TurboOne]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeSchane

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's rivets!

Way to go Deschane ! I was waiting for someone on here to start the great debate. And then you had to go and have such a great answer, we can't even fight over it.

I agree with SpaceMouse, I am a freelancer. I was one that need trains running instantly, if not sooner. Waiting from day of returning to hobby, Dec 14 or so, til Christmas about killed me and the kids. while patience is a virtue for us "big kids", it isn't to a 6 and 9 year old. I still need to find a steam engine that I can paint Pink, like they have in lionel O gauge. But we had running trains. Now we play, then we add, clean, build. When 6 year old is tired, we play.

Now I love real. I am so mad at you rivit counters, I now notice the difference in play sets and real trains. And sound has become a must. Thanks Terry ! And we can't cheat with green tissue paper for more than a week. Hey it was grass for a while. And yes I want that BLI fully loaded fleet of engines. And being I havent wired the system now I want DCC. There goes the "free" hobby. But it looks and sounds so great, I do thank the "veterans" for all their help. But like Deshane and the rest have said summed up " Do it positively. " My kids and I really enjoy hearing about how you fixed up your train, your layout, and how you made that special item that you love. But don't laugh at my 6 year olds Thomas, it also is important to him. (Go space mouse and Hogwarts) Tell me how you use DCC for all the cool accessories you have that enhance the layout you have, but don't laugh at my daughters pink engine. If that is what gets here excited, cool. My favorite part of my sons layout is he is into pigs. They ride on top of his desiel engine, above the cab so they can drive the train. They also ride on his missle car, and his searchlight car. Busy pigs. Thomas and the gang are giving a lot of pigs rides. A pig even operates cranky the crane. But they will learn, and they already appreciate others works. Thanks to the rivit counters they are willing to start building some buildings, and we will grow from there.

Have a great day

Tim

P. S. Jetrock I have always appreciated your comments, and you are positive, thanks for the great welcome back when I was new ! [8D]

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

I scratchbuilt a Canadian National double ended snow plow several years ago in HO scale. It has around 1500 rivets that I applied using a NWSL Rivet Tool. Does that make me a reivet counter?

Bob Boudreau

"around 1500 rivets" - Sorry no. A real rivet counter knows exactly how many rivets there are.[:D][:D]

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

I'll have to agree with Paul on this. Bob is a super modeler, beyond what I ever hope to accomplish, but "around 1500 rivits" don't cut it. Sorry. lol.

I have to say that this has been a great thread. Rivit counters and non rivit counters (even semi-Rivit Counters) have posted. I've read about different approaches taken by lots of folks, some differences of opinions etc. But what makes it real cool is that there wasn't a flaming post anywheres!