I am starting a new thread because this subject took the "Starting A Model Railroad Company" thread way off of topic. I did it, so I am making the new thread.
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So... what are these major gaps? I completely understand what Lion said about the subway cars, there are very few available.
I model 1954, and I have had no problem getting everything I need. These are my must-haves:
1) A good running appropriate locomotive roster.
2) A well varied fleet of appropriate freight cars.
3) Good DC power supplies.
4) Reliable track components.
5) Tons of scenic materials.
6) Custom roadname decals.
Here is how I have fared:
1) Stewart F units and Proto 2000 Geeps make up most of my diesel fleet. My steam locomotives are almost all Sunset USRA brass models. Only the Proto Geeps are available new, but I have had no problem locating plenty in new condition for my uses. Other locomotives have also been easy to come by, and only four remain on my "buy if I find them" list.
2) My freight car fleet is mostly Kadee and Proto models. About 40% is brass or resin kits. The variety is substantial and I have everything I want. There has been no problem in freight car finding.
3) I use exclusively Troller Transcab 2.5 control units. I need three, I own seven in perfect condition. Even though these have not been made in 20 years, they are easy to find. I would love a more modern power pack, but no one makes one that meets all my needs. That is OK, because I can find what satisfies me.
4) I want a better track line, but no one is going to make one. Oh how I wish Kadee would make HO scale track. I use old style Shinohara/Walthers code 83, and I managed to find everything I need in new condition. Here is a huge significant gap that no one wants to fill. That may be OK. How many people want solid metal frog power routing turnouts in todays age? I might be the only one.
5) We are living in the scenic material golden age! No complaints here. All the stuff available is great for me.
6) I doubt anyone other than me has a serious need for these, but I have hit the jackpot on these. I traded decals with other modelers for years to collect a lot of neat stock, and there are a couple of eBay sellers marketing the leftovers from Donald Manlick's company. This is another significant gap that applies to only me.
I do not think there is much a manufacturer could make that would get me off of my wallet. My most recent expensive purchases have come from Yarmouth Models and Rapido. I love building models, so I do not need ready to run.
Maybe I am just easily satisfied and am thankful that I can buy everything I need for my hobby and do not dwell on the rare items that I cannot get.
I would love a NYC F-12 4-6-0 locomotive. They have been made in brass. I will get one some day.
I would also love a good line of Heavyweight passenger cars that look amazing. I would pay $100.00 each for a ten car train in a second, but it is doubtful that any new releases would be available undecorated unless Rapido makes them.
Walthers will not manufacture undecorated versions of one of their name trains. I would buy that in a heartbeat.
What significant hole is out there that you think a manufacturer could put into production and make a profit?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Gaps?
The last new car made by a major plastic manufacturer for the 1880-1900 era was back in the late 1960's early 1970's. I would consider 50+ years without any new equipment a gap.
The most common commodity hauled (by tonnage) in the 1880-1900 era was coal. There are no appropriate coal cars for that era other than resin kits. No cars for the most common commodity would be a gap.
There have been no new locomotives for the 1880-190 era produced in the last 30 years. Several of the older ones have been upgraded and greatly improved, but nothing new, same boiler, same cabs same wheel arrangements. There are no era appropriate switch engines for the 1880-1900 era That's a gap.
As far as making a profit? Since the era has been ignored for decades the number of modelers in that era is low.
The good news: what ever new equipment you produce, you will own the market. Produce a wood sided, truss rod underframe, 34-36 ft gon and you will have cornered 100% of the market.
The bad news: its a small market.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Kevin,
Many of the items you have mentioned clearly came from the secondary market unless you bought them 20 to 40 years ago. Some are still easy to find, some not so much. New people in the hobby are not always comfortable with the secondary market.
I would like to see some non USRA medium sized steam, WESTERN MARYLAND Pacific, B&O B-18 Ten Wheeler, a few nice Atlantics, etc.
Sure, there is brass out there, but, because I like to have multiple copies with the same running qualities, I really don't want 25/35 year old brass.
I like the improved multi wheel pickup of the modern HO steam loco.
But actually, most of the steam locos in my roster would be hard to find today, and most are no more than 25 years old. So in my view, the selection of steam was much better a decade or two ago.
Better track? Better in what way? I'm happy with Atlas or what I can build myself.
Freight cars, some poeple are happy with somewhat "generic", others will tell you the most important cars from their era have never been made, others want more detail than some of the 40-60 year old tooling still being used in some cases - I don't have enough time to go too deep here, but here are a few I would like to see - 40' purpose built piggybacks from the early 50's and very early 40' mechanical reefers.
Diesel locos, again the selection of diesel locos, reasonably accurate diesel locos, was better at the peak of LifeLike ownership of Proto2000 than it has been any time recently.
And while a lot of that is still out there, it is drying up...........
Like you I am an undecorated shopper, that is much harder these days.......
Passenger cars - in the early days of the current Walthers plastic cars, they offered undecorated models, hard to find these days.
What about Branchline kits? It does not get any more detailed than those? They can be had if you look around.
But I don't buy expensive RTR passenger cars, undecorated or otherwise.
Even with my 36" minimum radius curves I prefer shorter passenger cars for their better appearance on curves. So I have large fleet of Athearn and ConCor 72' cars I have close coupled, added detail, and added American Limited diaphragms to.
Recently some others have publicly expressed a similar view about the merritts of selectively compressed passenger cars........
Athearn heavyweights can be detailed up pretty easily......and Ebay is still full of them.
But I do wonder if there is a fresh market there that could be tapped? ConCor seems to have done well there recent line of shorties based on the PRR cars?
So it may not really be a case of what has NEVER been made, but a case of what is readily available?
Sheldon
Oil-fired steam, especially smaller engines like the 2-8-0s that were the Geeps of their day. HO and N, please.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I was actually thinking of starting this very same thread. However my knowledge of true prototypes is lacking and I was out of the hobby for 25 years, so the knowledge of what was available has a big hole in it.
I would modify the question as to not what is missing, but what is missing that would be economically successful to produce.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
There is a VERY small amount of prototypical HO Pennsy Steam and electric that is RTR outside of brass. I think this is a huge gap due to the fact that we have no new, modern models of the following in HO: N1/N2, E6, E7, D16, H6, DD1, R1, S1 and S2, Q, B8, A4, the list could go on and on. These models would be important to accurately modeling the Pennsy from 1935 to around 1950 and they don‘t all exist in any form.
cuyama Oil-fired steam, especially smaller engines like the 2-8-0s that were the Geeps of their day. HO and N, please.
Sometimes I’m a bit surprised that somebody hasn’t taken a leaf out of the PFM playbook and done a modern version of the United ATSF 1950 class 2-8-0 that was such a good seller.
Andre
An E5 would work.
I'm going to go with how about correct for CP Rail and CN open hoppers, be they 100 ton or 70 ton or whatever in between? There are some likely "stand-ins" with fat details, but...the American open hoppers are getting to be reasonably well modeled and available. How about Canadian?
For other freight cars, Tangent, ExactRail, Athearn, Moloco, and Intermountain all have recent offerings that I had to buy, so I'm good there. I have actually more than I need.
Motive power: I don't need much of it for my modest layout, and am opting for a few brass diesel models because I love the see-through detail and other details that aren't always effectively modeled in plastic. I'm not saying others should buy brass or not buy brass, only that I found a few I wanted to have for my layout.
Ymmv.
John
Camelbacks. I don't think these have been made for a while except for 3 rail O gauge.
Steam in S scale (with scale wheels). Only 4-8-4 and 4-6-2 are available (except for small occasional brass runs).
Paul
dehusmanThere are no appropriate coal cars for that era other than resin kits. There are no era appropriate switch engines for the 1880-1900 era That's a gap.
Being available only in resin is filling the gap isn't it? For users of unpopular freight cars resin is the answer. This allows small companies to be profitable with small production runs.
I build resin cars all the time. I love them. They give me real unique cars like this C&O prototype automobile boxcar.
Switch engines from the 1890s, have they ever been made in brass? Aside from kitbashing, that might be the only hope.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMany of the items you have mentioned clearly came from the secondary market unless you bought them 20 to 40 years ago. Some are still easy to find, some not so much. New people in the hobby are not always comfortable with the secondary market.
This thread is about what is available, not what is being manufactured new, or currently. Something we need that is available only on the secondary market in like new condition counts as available. You might need to look a little, but it is out there and not too difficult to find.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBetter track? Better in what way?
Much more heavy duty and user friendly. I have posted threads about my track desires before. I do not want to rehash them too much here. No one will make what I want.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat about Branchline <Passenger Car> kits? It does not get any more detailed than those? They can be had if you look around.
They did not make enough different styles. I have two coaches and a sleeper. I need a full train.
ATLANTIC CENTRALLike you I am an undecorated shopper, that is much harder these days.
I am deeply disturbed that only Rapido makes available undecorated models of new releases. I buy what Rapido makes that fits my era, like the NORTHERN PACIFIC boxcars. Keep it up guys! Thank you!
cuyamaOil-fired steam, especially smaller engines like the 2-8-0s that were the Geeps of their day.
Great point. I think a good new model of a 2-8-0 is overdue. The Baldwin model from Bachmann is nice, but there were other common designs.
BigDaddyI would modify the question as to not what is missing, but what is missing that would be economically successful to produce.
Yes, it must be economically reallistic to produce. It does not need to be mass produced plastic. Resin and 3D printed are options for small runs to make money. There are still companies making pewter kits.
NS6770fanThere is a VERY small amount of prototypical HO Pennsy Steam and electric that is RTR outside of brass.
Yes, but the brass models are available, and the prices are dropping. Sunset imported many brass PRR steam locomotives made by Samhongsa that are great runners, not too bad to convert to DCC, are easy to repair, and easy to find in new condition.
They are not as well detailed as the new super-fragile plastic models, but for my money, I'll take a Sunset/Samhongsa brass steam locomotive for layout use over something that is so easy to break.
PRR8259I'm going to go with how about correct for CP Rail and CN open hoppers, be they 100 ton or 70 ton or whatever in between?
Great point. These should be on some manufacturer's "must make" list. I cannot imagine that there would not be a big demand for a good model of these cars.
IRONROOSTERCamelbacks. I don't think these have been made for a while except for 3 rail O gauge.
Heck yes! Overland made a PHILADELPHIA AND READING 0-4-0 camelback that is beautiful, but I really want a good 0-6-0 to use for switching. There are some older models inported by Gem, but the mechanism is a bit funky. READING and CENTRAL NEW JERSEY models are plentiful, but I do not like the fireboxes on these.
Obvious Gaps that have not been filled:
Lima Switcher, used the same body for the 750, 1000 and 1200 hp versisons, lots of railroads owned them.
PRR G41 Coil Car
FGE 50' RBL with 12' Offset Door.
Various ACF Covered Hoppers after the 1958 CF model but before the cylindrical Covered Hoppers, all ribbed side in 2006, 2929, 3000 and 3500 CF varieties, used by many railroads and private owners.
Pullman Standard 3500CF Ribbed Side Covered Hopper.
60's and 70's Gondolas from other railroads other than PRR, SP Prototypes.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
Kevin Ken Paterson talked about Roadmaster track in his latest video. Oak Hill MR Track Supply owns it, but their website doesn't do a good job of describing it. It looks like tie plates on real wood ties, best I can tell.
Inexpensive cars to fill open auto racks. They need 12 to 15 vehicles each, and they should primarily be boring sedans and station wagons.
Eric White Inexpensive cars to fill open auto racks.
Inexpensive cars to fill open auto racks.
Just finding good, metal open auto racks is a gap. The ones I have found on ebay are expensive.
dti406Lima Switcher, used the same body for the 750, 1000 and 1200 hp versisons, lots of railroads owned them.
That is a big gap. Your other mentions were right on point too.
BigDaddy It looks like tie plates on real wood ties, best I can tell.
That looks like the opposite of what I want, but it sure looks nice!
When it comes to Trucks, Wheels, Couplers, and Track I am willing to sacrifice detail and scale fidelity in return for rock-solid ruggedness and bulletproof reliability.
Eric WhiteInexpensive cars to fill open auto racks.
I know what you mean. I loaded Oxford's 1955 buicks onto my auto carrier, and it cost nearly $50.00, and I only needed four of them!
BrammyJust finding good, metal open auto racks is a gap.
Has a good open autorack model ever been made other than brass? If not, that seems like a massive gap to fill.
Proper Canadian steam locomotives that have the all weather enclosed cabs. Rapido is coming to the rescue but the family will have placed me in the green bin and rolled me out to the street and I would have been picked up by the truck by the time they get around to making all I want.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
What about supply vs.demand issues that shape the availablity gaps?
Eric White Inexpensive cars to fill open auto racks. They need 12 to 15 vehicles each, and they should primarily be boring sedans and station wagons.
Amen brother. It was not cheap to fill two bi-levels with Atlas Ford F-100's. Those required 10 each.
We need 1970's domestic sedans and station wagons for sure.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Undec RS-3 or RS-2 locos have been missing from HO for a long time.
Russ
Modeling the early '50s Erie in Paterson, NJ. Here's the link to my railroad postcard collection: https://railroadpostcards.blogspot.com/
Headline on the last newspaper: World Ends, N-scalers Suffer Worst
I'm looking for vehicles, particularly OTR trucks and tractor-trailers. Modern era. Trainworx produces some great ones (expensive, but I don't care), but they sell out before they hit the market. And that brings up one of my peeves: pre-order, and if you don't you miss out.
Also, I would like a lot more choices (or even a few more choices) in the building and structure market. Preferably modern, but even old buildings can easily fit into my modern era layout.
Not complaining, but Kevin asked . . .
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Some of us have been pining for a TRUE Santa Fe mechanical reefer, not the PFE and Burlington stand-ins we have now.
I have yet to pre order ANYTHING. And I always get one. Or more. Eventually. As long as modelres demenad more accurate models, that will NOT change, no oen is goign to go spend the money producing a model that only appeals to 100 modelers tops, not as a (relatively) mass produced model. It's not a sustainable business to do things that way. If enough people show interest to sell out the minimum run required to get the model made and generate enough profit to keep the company goign, then they make it. If there's no interest - well, no sense wasting an awful lot of money for somethign to sit in a warehouse. Thems the facts of life. Sorry if you are more of a frelancer or proto-freelancer and can make due with more generic locos and rollign stock, but when a vocal group complains that the sand filler hatch is the wrong shape on a model, so it can't be a REAL XYZ Railroad locomotive, what are you going to do? I'm somewhere in the middle, there's no way I am going to take a PRR steam loco with a Belpaire firebox and letter it Reading and call it good enough, but neither do I reletter all of my rolling stock so the NEW and RPCK dates all make sense for my specific era (which is not specific down to soem month of some year, bu rather a limited range of years).
There's still plenty of "close" stuff sold that is not under pre-order, nearly always available (the term "limited run" is used a lot but 10's of thousands produced does not equal "limited" in my book). I'm still buying brand new in box "Limited Edition" P2K locos that are still original Life Like productions, pre Walthers. They were never that "limited". I can also find stuff from others syuch as Atlas like that. ANd even stuff that seemed to "require" preordering. I got my first PCM Reading T-1 right when they came out, but I didn't preorder, I happened to know someone. And he still had 4 or 6 left after fulfilling the preorders he did have. I got my second one just before they annouced the first run with the Paragon II decoders (long after they disbanded PCM as a separate company, and when the models were listed as "sold out" everywhere - even Trainworld didn't have any), still sealed in the box, and for half what I paid for the first one. I recently got the Walthers Plymouth I wanted, the undec blue and white one, which matches the colors of a small GE 23 ton loco operated by the same cement plant I was planning to model. Those too were suppsoed to be sold out, even Walthers was saying they were, then suddenly, Walthers lists that specific one in their TGIF sale email I get each week - but I chaneck and got it for $20 less from Modeltrainstuff - who ALSO had it in stock - magic, depite Walthers saying it was a limited run and not being rerun, and being sold out for months. And of course now they do a new run, but different paint schemes and with ESU decoders instead of Soundtraxx, and the original run is now supposedly truly sold out and gone - though I bet they will STILL pop up NIB on eBay.
SO preorder if you must, but if the model actually gets made, and you really want one but DIDN'T preorder, don't despair, you can probably still get it. More likely than not.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
A Hallmark HO Scale Red/Yellow KCS Bay Window Caboose, (Will I ever see these again?!)
Some Mopac Cabooses in Dark Red would be great. Since no accurate off the shelf MP models exist, I have to rely on kitbashed wooden ones from ebay, (A few do resemble the Center Cupola with four windows on each side. Mopac apparently had some of these, did a photo search)
Another run of Roundhouse MKT Outside Braced Wooden Cabooses in Sloan Yellow or Barringer Red would also be welcomed, (Come on Athearn!)
Walthers to re-release the SF El Capitan Cars. The ones from the first run are all SOLD OUT, and very pricey on evilbay.
Has Walthers Announced a new run of AMTK Amfleet I Coaches?
Erie1951Undec RS-3 or RS-2 locos have been missing
I thought Bowser was producing an undec, but I don't see it in their catalog. I preordered a WM in May of 2017, canceled in 2018 and it still hasn't been produced, because of the China debacle.
Hey all, I was the one who opened the last thread on starting a company. Thanks for opening this thread-always love discussing just what kinds of models people look for in today’s market!
In case y’all wanted to know, the gaps in the market I was thinking about in particular was a number of HO steam locomotives. I won’t name the ones that came to mind (can’t give away my business plan!), but I think there are some varieties of steam locos out there with enough similarities to make mass production of components possible, and that are popular enough to sell/have sold before. So that’s what I was going after. Rolling stock was also under consideration, but I figured I’d start with what I know best to begin with.
I will say, I’m glad this thread got started up, cause it’s really eye-opening to see not only what else the market is missing, but also I what fellow modelers want and what they’re after. So thank y’all for sharing!
RTR 1930's automobiles in HO
Mike
BATMANProper Canadian steam locomotives that have the all weather enclosed cabs. Rapido is coming to the rescue
I don't think any other companies will get involved with these. Rapido has set the standard for this market.
kasskabooseWhat about supply vs.demand issues that shape the availablity gaps?
I think there is room for a few new companies to get involved with specialized items for a smaller market in resin and fill these gaps.
The day of detail parts for locomotives is over, but now that finished layouts are within the reach of more hobbiests, there should be new markets opening up for better scenic details, items that bring a layout to life, or even operating aids.
riogrande5761We need 1970's domestic sedans and station wagons for sure.
Back when I was in N scale, modeling 1968, there was a company that made resin models called "Road Apples" that made EVERYTHING I could ever want. They must have had 30 different era-appropriate vehicles available in solid resin that looked great when painted.
Then they were given Cease And Desist papers by a big automobile manufacturer and promptly stopped production. The prices for their stuff shot through the roof. I financed a huge part of my switch to HO scale selling these things.
As long as all the model cars require a "model approved by XX corporation" sticker, we will have a shortage of automobile models. Woodland Scenics has tried a work-around.
Erie1951Undec RS-3 or RS-2 locos have been missing from HO for a long time.
I see "New Old Stock" RS-1s and RS-3s on eBay frequently. I bought an Atlas/Kato RS-1 undecorated just a few weeks ago for less than $50.00.
ROBERT PETRICKAnd that brings up one of my peeves: pre-order, and if you don't you miss out.
I would not mind pre-order if they shipped on time. Nearly every pre-order I have done has been delayed, delayed, and the delayed again.
I do wargaming Kick-Starters about once a year, and these are delayed about 50% of the time.
azrailSome of us have been pining for a TRUE Santa Fe mechanical reefer, not the PFE and Burlington stand-ins we have now.
I would think anything missing from the SANTA FE roster would be a sure-fire way to produce a model that would sell.
SANTA FE stuff sells well in Florida, I imagine it does everywhere. When I was young, SANTA FE model locomotives were my favorites.
rrinker I'm still buying brand new in box "Limited Edition" P2K locos that are still original Life Like productions, pre Walthers. They were never that "limited". I can also find stuff from others syuch as Atlas like that.
Me too. The ready availability of so much Proto-2000 stuff amazes me.
ATSFGuyWalthers to re-release the SF El Capitan Cars. The ones from the first run are all SOLD OUT,
I am surprised by how quickly these Walthers Name Trains sell out. I would not think that there were that many people with layouts large enough to run the massive trains.
As I said, I would buy almost any Name Train if it was available undecorated.
SeeYou190 there was a company that made resin models called "Road Apples" that made EVERYTHING I could ever want. They must have had 30 different era-appropriate vehicles available in solid resin that looked great when painted. Then they were given Cease And Desist papers by a big automobile manufacturer and promptly stopped production.
Then they were given Cease And Desist papers by a big automobile manufacturer and promptly stopped production.
Now a days, lots of people are 3D printing cars. There is a guy on another forum who has shown some gorgeous 3D printed 70's cars. With 3D printing getting very widespread, it must be quite a job for the auto manufacturers to track them all down and tell them to stop.
BigDaddy canceled in 2018 and it still hasn't been produced, because of the China debacle.
I wonder how long the fallout from that factory closing will effect product availability.
MjorstadI will say, I’m glad this thread got started up, cause it’s really eye-opening to see not only what else the market is missing, but also I what fellow modelers want and what they’re after. So thank y’all for sharing!
I am also glad I started it. I am also happy it has not turned into a terrible complaint thread. There have been many interesting responses.
Water Level RouteRTR 1930's automobiles in HO
There never has been much here, and that is a terrible gap. Great point.
riogrande5761 With 3D printing getting very widespread, it must be quite a job for the auto manufacturers to track them all down and tell them to stop.
If what you need is avilable in 3D print, I would order it quickly. You never know.