jpg Detail you can see vs detail you can't see. Except in the close-up, I can't see tie plates or spike detail. In person, I'd need a magnifying glass to get the same effect as your zoomed-in photo.
Detail you can see vs detail you can't see.
Except in the close-up, I can't see tie plates or spike detail. In person, I'd need a magnifying glass to get the same effect as your zoomed-in photo.
I can see it fine, without magnification, which means that I can also see the dearth of spikes and tieplate in most handlaid track.
jpg What I *can* see on the non-zoomed photos is the fake-looking hinged point rails, the the huge round donut-holes in the throw rods (especially the Peco), the funny tabs on the tie next to the throw tie on the Peco, and the plastic-filled Peco frog.
What I *can* see on the non-zoomed photos is the fake-looking hinged point rails, the the huge round donut-holes in the throw rods (especially the Peco), the funny tabs on the tie next to the throw tie on the Peco, and the plastic-filled Peco frog.
Yup, I can see those, too. The most noticeable to me is the Peco throw throw bar with the holes (meant for remote operation, either mechanical or electrical). I operate those with a flick of my finger (not shown, but also unprototypical). Since you've mentioned it, perhaps I'll fill those unneeded holes and cut off the extension on the throwbar, too. It should have a fake rod connecting it to its non-operational groundthrow, anyway.
jpg I wouldn't say hand laying is a skill that belongs in every modeler's tool box, because I don't expect every modeler to master every skill the hobby encompases.
I wouldn't say hand laying is a skill that belongs in every modeler's tool box, because I don't expect every modeler to master every skill the hobby encompases.
As mentioned, I've done hand laying, and while the workmanship was, I think, up to acceptable standards operationally, it wasn't up to my standards visually, just like pretty-well most handlaid track I've seen done by even master modellers.
You and I both are cherry-picking what we see, both in our own work and in each others. I think that it's a perfectly acceptable practice, with no malice intended and no offence taken - simply differing points of view.
jpg I will say to be a master modeler you should have every skill in the hobby and should be a master at hand-laying track along with every other skill.
I will say to be a master modeler you should have every skill in the hobby and should be a master at hand-laying track along with every other skill.
Alco4801....Handlaying is almost manditory on timber bridges, where the tie spacing is closer; and for special trackwork, often associated with Traction, and industrial trackage in the streets needs checkrails that are difficult to add to flextrack....
Flex track for bridges is readily available, with closely-spaced thicker ties and it includes guardrails, too....
It was also easy enough to add an extended guardrail to a Shinohara curved turnout, where some larger locomotives were experiencing partial derailments.
Alco4801...And on exposed ties, please do not forget the tieplates. Even a piece of paper cut to the same size as a scale tieplate, painted and attached to the ties prior to adding the rails, makes such a difference visually.
While my foray into handlaying was limited, the things that bothered me most about it was the lack of detail, especially tieplates, but also the dearth of scale-size spikes. I know that handlaid track doesn't require four spikes in every tie, but their absence stood out, at least to my eyes.While some flex track does offer such details in somewhat exaggerated size, in my opinion, it's better than nothing, and some brands do a better job of it.
In the photo below, Atlas flex at the top, a Peco turnout in the middle, and a Micro Engineering turnout at the bottom...
...while this view shows Central Valley mainline ties, with M.E. rail...
...and in close-up...
Central Valley also offers "branchline" tie strip, with more widely-spaced ties, which will accept codes 83, 70, or 55 rail. Tieplate and spike detail is similar to that on the mainline strips.
Wayne
riogrande5761I can't, like others here, point to a handlaying "notch" in my belt and it's not on my bucket list either. No desire and certainly no time, a luxury I don't have much of for such things.
My thoughts exactly.
It looks good, and I have emmense respect for folks who do (very smilar to my respect for scratchbuilders) but I haven't the time or interest.
Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad for Chicago Trainspotting and Budget Model Railroading.
Handlaying track is a skill that should reside in your technique "toolbox", as flextrack doesn't always give the right result. Handlaying is almost manditory on timber bridges, where the tie spacing is closer; and for special trackwork, often associated with Traction, and industrial trackage in the streets needs checkrails that are difficult to add to flextrack. And on exposed ties, please do not forget the tieplates. Even a piece of paper cut to the same size as a scale tieplate, painted and attached to the ties prior to adding the rails, makes such a difference visually.
Yep, it's the joiners, one turn-out, and the transition from flex to hand-laid track. I sometimes wonder if we were penny-wise and pound-foolish... or maybe day-wise and week-foolish.
AutonerdWe recently built some loading tracks (for getting trains on and off the layout) with flex track and commercial turnouts. First track we've had that consistently gives us problems!
The flex track shouldn't be a problem. What are the commerical turnouts you are using? Some are better than others.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Our club's track has traditionally been hand-laid -- all 15,000-or-so feet of it, including turnouts. It looks beautiful and has been running well for 40 years. The cost benefits on turnouts alone are supendous The downside is we have one expert and the knowledge needs to be passed down.
We recently built some loading tracks (for getting trains on and off the layout) with flex track and commercial turnouts. First track we've had that consistently gives us problems!
I've always admired those that did hand laid track.
I've always used flex track and store bought turnouts. Too old to learn a new way of doing things. Then I found problems with flex track. Had bought 500 feet of used and new track sections. Put it down and had derailments in many places. Come to find out even factory new flex track can be out of gauge. Had to replace about 150' of track that with the NMRA gauge was too wide. (bought a second gauge just to be sure) Was OK on straight sections but on curves it would derail almost every time. Be sure to check any track before you put it down for proper gauge.
When nearly everything was down and only some new areas needed extensions, I needed a crossing that was a different angle from any available and one part was on a curve. So I made my own, but probably different from the standard way of the way the masters did it (expression I've heard several times about my layout - "not the way the master did it") Mine was done with a pc board. traced out the curve I needed and the angle of the crossing track on paper, then transferred the layout on to a copper board and begin masking off the placement of rails and guard rails. Etched the copper and laid track (soldered rails direct to the copper board). Added the jumpers where needed to get electrical in the right places. It all worked fine. PC board is almost exactly the same thickness as HO ties so one could notch the board as the spaces between ties, but since this is in an area you'd have to stand on a ladder and bend over 4' of layout to even see, I skipped that part.
I was an HO modeler in my teens (code 100, brass, fiber ties) but quit when I went to college. Re-entered in 1968 with a small shelf layout in an apartment dining room and decided to hand-lay code 70, since there was no 83 then. Campbell ties and ballast, hand-laid turnouts based on a superb April 65 MR article by Jack Work. Split a 4 x 8 sheet of homasote lengthwise and created an "L" shaped 8' x 10' shelf. Had enough time to spike every tie. This layout became the nucleus of a basement layout in a new house in 1972. Separated the pieces, laid a 48" curve between them and went twice around the wall of the basement. All visible track was hand laid (spiked every fifth tie), but I discovered switch kits from a Dayton, Ohio, company containing cast points, frog and guard rails for all turnouts (#6 & #8). The original shelf turnouts still work well after 50 years. Installed scale "rail joiners" 39' apart on my engine terminal and an industrial area to simulate jointed rail; other rail is "welded".
Today I hand-lay code 83 at our club and for turnouts I use Central Valley points with Details West frog & guardrails, insulated points with a PC tie as the throwbar.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI ran some numbers, and you have to get in the area of 50 turnouts before FastTracks breaks even with the street price of Atlas code 83 Custom Line. At 100 turnouts FastTracks is finally about 30% less.
In larger scales the breakeven comes a lot quicker. Especially O where Atlas O 2 rail #5's currently list at $96.95.
In S where FVM #5's cost $34.00 I still prefer to buy them (on sale at 20% off). It's a matter of time more than money for me.
Paul
wp8thsubCentral Valley's turnouts are a good product unfortunately hamstrung by poorly developed assembly sequence, and a finicky throwbar design....
I agree with you on that, Rob. I've built only one CV turnout, but did modify the sequence of assembly and changed out some of the supplied parts. It works reliably, and having learned from constructing it will make the others easier to install.I also have a couple of turnout tie strips, and will fabricate what's need from rail that I have on-hand.
Rob, as an experianced hand laid track modeler, I could see all that potential for modification as well - I've never been much for buying products that then NEED a bunch of mods, espeically not at those prices.
Never understood those who bought the older PECO product and did a bunch of mods?
I've been using Atlas code 83 since it came out, painted and ballasted it looks good to me and works out of the box.
I have successfully curved the Atlas Custom Line turnouts (mildy, large radii), I have used Atlas points and frogs to build other specials. I just can't see the money or the work with the Central Valley system or FastTracks.
But then again, I'm a big picture modeler, getting ready to build the next, and likely last, fairly big layout...........I have 1700 sq ft to fill, I like long trains, and for the space the layout will be relitively simple. But it will stage about thirty trains, typically 20' long, and that means lots of track and turnouts.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALI looked at the Central Valley stuff when it came out. Very nice detail. I built one turnout. I was very disappointed with how fragile it was - ruled that out right away.
Central Valley's turnouts are a good product unfortunately hamstrung by poorly developed assembly sequence, and a finicky throwbar design.
DSC03134 by wp8thsub, on Flickr
DSC03134
I've used several of these, including the #8 crossover shown above. They have proven to be reliable, and yield smooth operation. It was necessary to do some messing around with the throwbars to ensure the points worked as intended.
I dispensed with the kit's foil strips for contact between the stock and closure rails, substituting jumper wires. I also soldered the frog points before installing them, even though the kit states to just wedge them in place.
DSC03135 by wp8thsub, on Flickr
DSC03135
This CVT turnout dispenses with the stock throwbar entirely, and uses one I made from .080" black styrene. It works better than the kit parts, and was easier to install.
Were I to expand my current layout, or start another, I would definitely consider making more extensive use of the Central Valley turnout kits. It's too bad the learning curve with them is mostly figuring out which kit parts not to use.
Rob Spangler
riogrande5761 Fast Tracks looks pretty nifty and if I were retired and had lots of time, I might give it a try. But time is a luxury I simply don't have. Presently too many house projects have pushed "hands-on" hobby activity to a stand still. When I've finally gotten cought up on house projects, then layout building is next on the list and there are plenty of trainmodel projects like getting models layout ready, decalling, and much more.
Fast Tracks looks pretty nifty and if I were retired and had lots of time, I might give it a try. But time is a luxury I simply don't have. Presently too many house projects have pushed "hands-on" hobby activity to a stand still. When I've finally gotten cought up on house projects, then layout building is next on the list and there are plenty of trainmodel projects like getting models layout ready, decalling, and much more.
FastTracks stuff is nice, but it is pricey.
One of the big advantages of hand laid track back in the day was the combination of higher quality and much lower cost.
Today, as you have noted, commercial track is exponentially better, and FastTracks jigs, tools and special ties are expensive.
I ran some numbers, and you have to get in the area of 50 turnouts before FastTracks breaks even with the street price of Atlas code 83 Custom Line. At 100 turnouts FastTracks is finally about 30% less.
And that assumes 50 or 100 of the same size turnouts........
I have three different size turnouts on my layout plan........
Again, I build specials when I need them, without any fancy aluminum jigs, but I doubt I would ever again hand lay a whole layout, or even all my turnouts, or even just the visable portion of the layout.
I looked at the Central Valley stuff when it came out. Very nice detail. I built one turnout. I was very disappointed with how fragile it was - ruled that out right away.
mlehmanBut to each their own, because it's whatever helps you enjoy the hobby. For some, track is a destination. For others, it's the iron road that takes us to our destination, something other than track. We all have only so much time, so choose wisely in what helps you achieve the greatest satisfaction.
Well said Mike.
Hand laid track is not a dieing art, it's alive and well, and there are plenty of resources availiable, with Fast Tracks, and Proto87. Have at it, if you chooose. I choose not to.
Although, If I was certain my current layout would be up and running forever, there are a few turnouts in my yard area that I would give it a try, instead of hacking manufactured turnouts.
We won't be in this house forever, Cape Cod style, too many steps, so I make my decision accordingly.
Mike.
My You Tube
sschnabl I model N scale, and have decided to hand lay the turnouts using the FT jigs and use ME flex for the track. Why? Unfortunately ME only offers a #6 in N scale. I wanted to include #8's on my mainline, so I decided to buy a jig and try it out. I was sold. Just after a couple of turnouts, I thought the ones I made were better than the commerically available ones. Plus I learned a new skill. After getting several under my belt, I tried doing a wye with a paper template. That one turned out really well, too. However, I only have so much time, so I will lay flex in between those turnouts. Scott
I model N scale, and have decided to hand lay the turnouts using the FT jigs and use ME flex for the track. Why? Unfortunately ME only offers a #6 in N scale. I wanted to include #8's on my mainline, so I decided to buy a jig and try it out. I was sold. Just after a couple of turnouts, I thought the ones I made were better than the commerically available ones. Plus I learned a new skill. After getting several under my belt, I tried doing a wye with a paper template. That one turned out really well, too. However, I only have so much time, so I will lay flex in between those turnouts.
Scott
Amen brother
Now you have just sold me.
Everything you just said above is my reasoning. I'm getting really excited about ordering the one that I need the most. The number 5 for the yards.
A paper wye from what you learned from the templates. That's even more encouraging to me.
Summed up my decision Scott..... Thanks.
I really like how ME flex holds its shape after curved into position. I have no problem achieving radius with ME flex.
TF for FT
I think this is both a generational and a personal decision for most of us based on the range of responses. I'm a narrowgauger and I wouldn't be if I had to rely on hand-laid track, as those who came before had to.
On the other hand, I've built a few things I've needed, a dual gauge crossing and several curved turnouts. I've also hacked commercial turnouts. I certainly have a need, don't mind doing it (beats wiring ), and have enough practice I'll keep doing it for myself - in those few cases where I have a case where commercial trackwork doesn't meet the need.
Now, plain old, straight (or curved) track? Nah, other than very short connecters to other trackwork where for some reason flex won't work better.
That was the Age of Shinohara. It's past, but even before that unfortunate passing things had changed for me, based on the market and what I've seen others do. If I were to start over again it would involve building 95% of the trackwork with FastTracks. I've got considerable dual-gauge and FastTracks would give me flexibility and economy I never had with Shinoharas.
Other who are building locally have used FastTracks successfully. There's still a learning curve with building them and the issue of everything else other than the trackwork itself associated with a turnout (the way its thrown, any signaling, wiring, and landscaping) all present its own challenges. I have to say that I've seen plenty of handlaid track in my time that suffers due to poor presentation or engineering in comparison to appropriately scenicked store-bought track. I tend to take a layout more as a whole in terms of the impression I get than worrying about the "hidden" details like benchwoork, wiring and --- track. It more important what it looks like and how it operates than who made it in what form.
For me, anything common is bought. Special trackwork may be handlaid if it can't be hacked. Plain old two rails + ties? Buy whatever the favorite flex is. In my case, I use ME, which some swear at. For me, ME is more detailed than any and lets me layout the track accurately before it gets spiked. Yes, I spike my flex. And ME's truthfully easy to work if you learn the right techniques in handling it.
But to each their own, because it's whatever helps you enjoy the hobby. For some, track is a destination. For others, it's the iron road that takes us to our destination, something other than track. We all have only so much time, so choose wisely in what helps you achieve the greatest satisfaction. I guess I'm just a little more solemn about this having lost two model railroaders in our division in a week recently. Consider where your track fits in your own big picture and take that road and it'll be good, trust me.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I have handlayed a small amount of track as an experiment, and scratchbuilt a few turnouts. The turnouts were also mostly experimental too, although one (curved, and roughly the equivalent of a #12) did see use on a previous layout. It performed flawlessly, but wouldn't have been all that visible once scenery had been added....probably for the best: while it was neatly constructed, there were no tieplates and only intermittent ties with at least four spikes in each.
As for the free-flowing curves, etc. allowed with handlaid track, you can do the same with any decent flex track, and it will have tieplates and four spikes per tie, even if they're somewhat oversize. If that size bothers you, you could switch to Proto standards applicable to your scale, as properly-scaled tieplate and spikes are available.I opted instead for Central Valley tie strips with scale moulded-on tieplates and spike heads...
The rail is Micro Engineering code 83, but I'll be using some code 70 and 55 on a few industrial spurs, laid on Central Valley "branchline" tie strips (wider spacing and irregular lengths). I got most of the tie strip either free or at a good price, and while I really like using it and like its appearance, too, I didn't bother to add joint bars every 39' on both sides of both rails - there's still too much other more important stuff to be done.
I'm learning to build turnouts using FT jigs.
Cost is hard to figure by the time you get through buying jigs, tools and supplies, but obviously once the overhead is covered they're cheaper. That wasn't particularly a motivator for me.
I am one of the ones gregc is talking about who do think the solid point rails of hand-made turnouts look vastly superior to the hinged commercial points rails, and the plastic commercial frogs look clunky.
I also have the perception that hand-made turnouts work better than commercial turnouts. That commercial turnouts can take quite a bit of fiddling with to tune, and by the time that's done you could have made your own if you knew how, and one that looks better overall.
When I was in the hobby as teen and even my other foray fifteen years ago I was envious of those who had the skill to hand lay track. In my recent re-entry to the hobby I was inspired by all the videos produced by Tim Warris and felt maybe I could learn to do that too and wanted to try.
But I can't see myself bothering to hand-lay regular track. Back in the day you could realize a cost savings over flex track, but I think that's closer to a wash now. The look of flex track has gotten better in the mean time.
I'd like someday to graduate from using jigs to jig-less custom turnouts built with pc ties and from there to 'real' hand laid turnouts (completely spiked, no pc ties).
For the challenge, I might like to try building a bit of dual gage track someday or hand-laying a short logging line. For the logging line, part of the goal would be to make it look roughly constructed, with imperfect tie spacing and roller-coaster rails that a locomotive would have to creep along to stay on. But I wouldn't want to do much of that.
I'd say that far from dead, hand-laying turnouts is in a resurgence thanks to Tim Warris. Straight track is a different story.
as has others have said, some feel a hand laid turnout looks better while others have mentioned cost
but what about thinking of a turnout as another scratch built structure on the layout that fits just the way you want. The time building it is part of the enjoyment. The fact that it costs < a few $$ is a bonus.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Those spike driving tools never worked well. Even the Kadee spiker had its issues, and I wouldn't want one to use now (although I used one to lay hundreds of feet or track on a club layout).
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
My little red track gauge with the four spike holes and the push tool with the two rods sticking out of the bottom to push the spikes down has been dorment for forty five or more years, and they will stay that way.
I have seen the two tools sometime ago, but time has a habit of slipping bye, so may have been years ago. Now...I wonder where they maybe hiding?
I found the spikes, some still in bags, PERFECT No. 428, 1000 chisel point HO rail spikes, offset head, 35 cents. The loose ones are HO scale 2-1/2 foot long and are in a gondola for scrap. Wow, if that gon. was loaded thirty some years ago and hasn't been unloaded yet! Somebody's gone a lose there job.
This brings up a point that has been suggested here but not directly stated.
If your goal is track that looks like a little used siding, old branch line, quickly laid 1800's route, then hand laid track can/will look more realistic.
If your goal is a neatly ballasted, carefully surveyed class I mainline, commercial track may well give an equal or better effect.
I model mostly the latter.
Yes, hand laid turnouts give you prototype like flexibility in design, I do that when needed. But commercial turnouts can be carefully laid out to similar effects in most cases.
there are some scales and narrow gauge where it is still required to get that look. I hand lay only where visible. Cannt beat real wood ties and tje staining variation. That adds alot to a scene. Especially shortline or older less used trackage. Cannt beat the turnout flexibility in a small space situatioN . Railroads build to suit, and it just looks better when I do the same. Remember, track is a model too and really makes or breaks a scene. It blends in but adds to it when done right. But ruins it it is not weathered or done right.
Wolfie
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
I am really wanting to get some N scale code 55, Fast Tracks assembly fixtures to make all of my turnouts.
I have heard the first one you make takes three times as long as it should and then after that it's a cinch.
I also understand they work very well and match ME flextrack being that ME supplies the products to make these turnouts.
They are spendy but you only have to buy one jeg for each size turnout. I think it would be worth it. Looks like a fun project as well.
TF