How effective is the NMRA?

[Steven Otte]

Really? Another thread of pointless bickering about the NMRA? If you like what the NMRA is doing, join and support them. If you don't, don't, and it's no skin off your nose.

I'm not a big fan of threads that complain about people/companies/organizations that aren't on this forum to defend themselves, so I'm locking this. Now go do something useful with your time.

[Howard Zane]

Well, one of you folks suggested to stop complaining and if the NMRA ain't doing the job of promotion outside of the hobby....do something. Well after I dropped my membership two decades back due to reasons other than poor promotion, I seriously toyed with starting a new organization with a catchy name. I actually had a display booth at our Timonium show and within no time felt like a hog at a Bar-Mitzvah. I was met with so many negative comments, that I took it down withn hours. So much for that idea....at least for then. I do realize that the NMRA does a decent job within the hobby after finally getting over the X2F (horn-hook)coupler standardazation bit.

Maybe now that I'm actually fully retired (no more shows), I can use my whatever writing skills even though my wife Sandy still calls me "unliterate" and write articles to hopefully be published in media outdside of model railroading. I have seen first hand the glow in "civilians" eyes when seeing a decent model railroad for the first time. Our hobby offers so much for so many...if only they knew about it and how they could turn intimidation into inspiration.

I will write these articles along with help from others and some great photos, but I cannot promise that they will be published....

[SeeYou190]

xboxtravis7992

Furthermore, it is the last generation in America to have had any exposure to railroad's golden years with streamlined passenger trains and common steam engines. When that group is gone I will bet the hobby does take a hit;

.

Yup, to a previous generation trains were stylish travel. To the current young generation they are Smoke/NOx belching monsters, blowing horns in the middle of the night, grafitti covered eyesores, and block intersections for hours.

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Trains in general need a good public image/relations makeover.

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-Kevin

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[SeeYou190]

richhotrain

 

Howard Zane

This question has dogged me for years and I do not know the answer, but I'd suspect the NMRA could do more to promote our hobby. 

 

 

Why would it be the task of the NMRA to promote the hobby? That is not what the NMRA is set up to do.

Rich

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Well... it is kind of what they say their mission is...

.

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-Kevin

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[bearman]

For what it is worth, the NMRA has to file IRS Form 990 and make the most recent 3 years' 990's available for public inspection.  I found a draft 990 for 2016 which document 7 employees  with total slaries and other compensation of $262,089 for an average compensation of almost $35,000 each.  Total revenues were a little over $2,000,000.  There is a lot more there but I am hardly qualified to analyze it all.  It does appear now, that there is some transparency regarding the NMRA's financial situation.

[mlehman]

IRONROOSTER

It's not and I have looked.

If you can't find what you need, you can always drop a line to the treasurer, Frank Koch, whose contact info is here: https://www.nmra.org/frank-koch-hlm

I happened to notice that Frank's retired from P&G. So is my sister, who likely knows him based on his bio info. I could ask my sister to vouch for him one way or another, but then you'd have to start considering I'm not pulling your leg on this stuff. But if you're too frightened about asking abiout it yourself, PM specific questionsto me and I'll send them to Frank for an answer.

IRONROOSTER

And why isn't the magazine distributed digitally over the internet - others seem to do it and save money besides.

Digital editions cost money in addition to the paper edition production costs. At least so far, that's just the way the cost structure comes about. Nothing unique to that in regard to the NMRA. I believe there was a survey of some sort that found that only about 15% of the membership getting the magazine wanted to go digital. Where? I don't recall, but your recall of these facts seems more fragile than mine and you're the one that wants them, so look it up yourself if you can't bother to ask Frank about any of this.

IRONROOSTER

I am and have been a member since 1972.

I've been a member since 1970, except for about a 10 year hiatus from 75 to 85 to chase women, 4x4 trucks, and remote campsites. Yes, the info available has varied over the years. In fact, I think recent prez Charlies Getz did a pretty good job of keeping the membership advised through his column of critical details of the NMRA's finances, one that improved over past efforts... Virtually all-volunteer, things do vary from time to time, but I see no reason for throwing massive shade on the work of thousands of dedicated volunteers because someome can't bother with asking for info on something they're not informed about.

[IRONROOSTER]

mlehman

Look, this stuff is published on a monthly basis.

...

it's there if you bother looking

It's not and I have looked.

mlehman

You didn't get a color-imaged magazine on slick paper in 1972.

No, but it was much better content.

mlehman

Or a vast array of services delivered electronically (the internet really isn't free, ya know?) including video content about basic and advanced topics available as part of your membership.

Not that we know how much any of this costs.  And why isn't the magazine distributed digitally over the internet - others seem to do it and save money besides.

mlehman

thousands of people every year disagree with you over the value of their membership. I'm on a fixed income and I consider it to be $75 well spent. You're free to do as you please, of course.

I am and have been a member since 1972.  As I noted above, the standards/RPs are important.  It's not the value I question, it's the lack of transparency.

Paul

[mlehman]

xboxtravis7992

I mostly just wanted to highlight that a lot of power rests in the hands of the individual hobbiest willing to share their hobby on their own terms via their own effort. Wink

Nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, it's one of the few arguments here that answer the corresponding question of "If you're not a NMRA member, what are you doing to promote the hobby?"

Bashing the NMRA doesn't do that, but you'd never know that from reading some of the factually incorrect rhetoric that seems to pass for a grounded argument by a few of those here.

I don't expect either organizations or individuals to take sole responsibility for the hobby's future. We all share that. And it is easier to share things now than it was 40 or 50 years ago. In the past, as a thoughtful earlier comment noted, the NMRA was one of the few organized options. Now there are many others, mostly more specialized in focus. But there remains a significant need for the NMRA's longstanding efforts to promote standards, as well as the diverse efforts made by its members across the US and the other nations that the NMRA operates in.

rrebell

Well, it has been 5 years and no Magic Of Model Railroading and no mention of it coming.

You're obviously unaware of the regular reports to the membership on this joint project between the NMRA and the California State RR Museum, some of them expressing considerable frustration over how long this is taking. It's a project that is being paid for by targetted donations as the funding for it doesn't come from dues or other regular NMRA income. The delays are almost wholly  due to the state of California's decision making process. However, these have mostly been resolved and the display wing is moving forward now. When completed, the displays will put a high quality exhibition explaining the hobby in one of the most well-attended museums in the nation. Just one more example of how, through thick and thin, the NMRA has actively pursued opportunities to expand participation in the hobby.

[xboxtravis7992]

mlehman

Nothing wrong with lots of content producers. But you seem to suggest that the NMRA doesn't bother with such things. 

 

I actually was going to add something saying your blog you linked earlier was a perfect example of a group using online media to reach out to a larger audience. I didn't see that part of your post when I first read through the tread, and noticed it after I published my first comment. If anything my lack of knowledge of what kind of online content the NMRA might be putting out is more of a case of ignorance on my behalf, than an argument saying they aren't doing it all. I mostly just wanted to highlight that a lot of power rests in the hands of the individual hobbiest willing to share their hobby on their own terms via their own effort.  

[mlehman]

rrebell

I just went over their tax returns, $400,000.00 in compinsations.

Please cite your reference here. Not sure what tax returns you're talking about? The NMRA is a 501c3 and the tax liability listed in the finanicial report is $24. And there is no way they're paying $400000 for what is 3 FTE positions. This is office work except for a single admin position and I think that's very unlikely to itself pay over $100000, more likely far closer to $50000. In any case, the exact amnounts are covered by the exclusions previously cited. But whatever "compinsations" you're talking about it has nothing to do with paying salaries of the paid staff.

Really, a lot less speculation and rumor-mongering would help this conversation. Facts are troublesome things but making stuff up is really not appropriate.

IRONROOSTER

So the 13700 dues paying members are carrying 3000+ member who don't pay dues?

There's a significant block of life members whose costs are carried by various investments and funds. There are also the trial memberships, family members who pay significantly less than $75. I did not intend to supply a detailed breakdown. I don't do HQ financees. I just was pointing out that dues are a significant part of revenue and that they are accounted for in the numbers.

IRONROOSTER

Exactly

Look, this stuff is published on a monthly basis. Claiming it's all mysterious because you're too busy to bother looking it up before you make stuff up and then blaming me for offering detail that tends to refute your baseless accusations after I do the best I can in a half hour to point out it's there if you bother looking...sorry, I don't really have any sympathy for my having an obligation to remove all your ignorance when I pointed you in the direction where you could educate yourself.

IRONROOSTER

When I joined in 1972 the dues were $5.00. Adjusted for inflation (using the governments CPI Inflation Calculator) that would be $30.76 today. Actual current dues are $75.00 - that's a $44.24 difference. Might be one reason people don't join.

You didn't get a color-imaged magazine on slick paper in 1972. Or a vast array of services delivered electronically (the internet really isn't free, ya know?) including video content about basic and advanced topics available as part of your membership.

The CPI represents average costs. Depending on the goods and services in the basket, there are considerable differences in the total inflation value. In any case, thousands of people every year disagree with you over the value of their membership. I'm on a fixed income and I consider it to be $75 well spent. You're free to do as you please, of course.

SeeYou190

Well, this does not look good.

As was already mentioned, the HQ building was sold. That income added to the organization's assets at the same time it greatly reduced annual upkeep expenses. It was exactly the sort of wise use of member assets that I thought motivated Zane's original question. Too bad so many have a problem recognizing good stewardship, as when these facts come up they might realize this is exactly what is good.

HOmainline

Other member-based non-profit organizations to which I belong or have belonged do indeed publish detailed, annual financial statements in their magazines. That the NMRA does not is very suspect.

You must've skimmed through. As I noted earlier, the most recent detailed finanicial report is in the September 2018 NMRA Magazine. It is an "audited report" which means it was reviewed by an outside accounting firm which undoubtedly employs CPAs.

HOmainline

the organization's jaw-droppingly laughable membership recruitment strategy announced in an e-Bulletin early this year: "Membership Retention is the best and most economical way to grow our numbers." Yep. Keep the ones (who are largely older and dying off) we've already got and we'll grow. Economical it certainly is.

Kerry,

You missed the point. What that means is that you work hard at satisfying your members, as it's easier to keep them on board than it is to add new members. That doesn't mean new members are disregraded, just that you should make sure the ones you have stick with you.

xboxtravis7992

Forget the traditional TV or film media... Do any of you have any idea what small hobby produced content online is doing to spread the hobby?

Nothing wrong with lots of content producers. But you seem to suggest that the NMRA doesn't bother with such things. In fact, around 130 clinics at the national convention and other video content is available for members.  Some of it may be Youtube-ish, but much of it is put together by people with considerable skill that they want to share with others.

[mbinsewi]

Nice post Xbox, someone from the younger generation speaks out.  I'm from the "baby boomers", 1949.

Mike.

[rrebell]

Well, it has been 5 years and no Magic Of Model Railroading and no mention of it coming.

[xboxtravis7992]

Howard Zane

I have heard arguements that promoting hobby in mass media like Cable TV and other magazines would be futile. I'm not sure. 

 

Forget the traditional TV or film media... Do any of you have any idea what small hobby produced content online is doing to spread the hobby? How many people might start working on model railroading because they watched a few videos on YouTube? How many railfans were born just because as a teenager they had a camera on their phone; vague memories of watching Thomas the Tank Engine as a kid, then in a moment turned that camera towards a train, snapped a picture and said "gee that's neat. I should take more!"? No, the NMRA is doing nothing to add to that; but online production of content via amateurs is doing it. That teenage kid trackside filming with his camera is going to return home to his computer and tell his friends on social media what train he saw, and spread the hobby via that. I know plenty of people chime about not wanting to use Facebook to check the hobby groups there, but please do at least once. You'll notice that those online groups are a healthy mix of people from their senior years through middle age and down to the teenagers who just got their driver's license.  

The problem's though are a translation of skill and money. Camera's are cheap. Layouts, even in their smallest form are not... It is more cost effective to buy a train sim and a few DLC packs than it is to build a proper layout. The struggle of the hobby will not be finding people interested, it will be teaching them how to transfer their 'digital' knowledge into tangible work. 

And again that is why so much 'amatuer' content online is so important to the hobby. Show a guy a Luke Towan video, and he will be scratchbuilding structures in no-time. Show that same guy a long NMRA list of specs and standards? He is going to go back to his video games, unless he has already learned the construction/engineering skills needed to make sense of those specs. 

Model railroading is not the only proof of this to. Go watch a Scott Manley, Everyday Astronaut or a Vintage Space video if you want to see how amateurs are legit teaching rocket science casually online. Go watch a You Suck at Cooking or Binging With Babish video to see how people share how to cook meals. Dive into ExtraCredits for a combination of literature, game design and science discussions. Or watch some Overly Sarcastic Productions videos on Greek myth and history. Get on a Cody'sLabs video and see how people are legit smelting raw rock into metals in their backyard and teaching other people how to do it via the internet. So many skills are being taught via casual hobby-folk right now for free its crazy. 

Now is their going to be a bit of a 'crunch' in the hobby as Baby-Boomer's age out of it? I will bet. That is a massive generation now retired in their years of 'disposible income' aplenty that no longer has to worry about getting their kids through school, working a job, etc. Furthermore, it is the last generation in America to have had any exposure to railroad's golden years with streamlined passenger trains and common steam engines. When that group is gone I will bet the hobby does take a hit; but it won't be the kind of mortal hit the naysayers might proclaim it to be. Trust me, plenty of younger generations are already primed to pick up the torch when they reach the right moment in their lives to invest in the hobby. 

So yeah, what Model Railroading needs to pass onto "the next generation" so to speak is lots of well produced, well executed, and entertaining online content. Somebody will stumble across it, and fall in love with the hobby because of it. Could the NMRA contribute to that? Sure, they could reach out to some of their more skilled and charismatic members to work in producing such content (but to be honest, as time goes on the group really is seeming less and less like a hobby advocate and more of a member's only social club. Reform will be needed eventually to survive, but I don't want to speculate how that might happen and what needs to change). But its nice to know the lay person can really get that spark of inspiration and use their skills themselves to share the hobby via their own means, isn't it?

[HOmainline]

kasskaboose

The NMRA could easily encourage new blood into the hobby.  Forget about social media blitzes and instead tap into STEM!  There are many young kids engaged in robotics, wiring, etc.  Coupling that with DCC is a fantastic way of potentially steering kids toward this hobby.

Bottom line: the NMRA has limited value.  Their standards are of some help, but leave much doubt about their ability to draw new members.  Gaining new blood is critical to encouraging the next generation of Howard Zane, Andy Sperandeo, etc.

For those to happen, there first has to be the will to do so.  Without that, the U.S. would never have gone to the moon.

[HOmainline]

SeeYou190

I really do not want to start another argument about this, but Howard asked what the NMRA is doing to promote the hobby.

From my point of view... nothing.

Shameful.

-Kevin

Oh, to disagree!

For the few years I belonged, nearly every issue of the magazine spoke - ad nauseam - to what a great hobby model railroading is, what great friends one can make by joining, earning MMR status, etc., etc.  To the membership.  What it seemed most interested in promoting - ad nauseam - however was the annual convention.

And the organization's jaw-droppingly laughable membership recruitment strategy announced in an e-Bulletin early this year:

"Membership Retention is the best and most economical way to grow our numbers."

Yep.  Keep the ones (who are largely older and dying off) we've already got and we'll grow.  Economical it certainly is. 

[tstage]

Yea, location makes a difference.  My wife and I live pretty decently on ~$50K.  While our modest suburban home (outside a major city) is paid for, I still have to pay for my own medical insurance because I'm only working part-time.  Property taxes aren't exactly inexpensive where we live but we do manage with only one vehicle and have done so for the past 21 years.

Tom

[HOmainline]

bearman

I looked into joining the NMRA and discussed the organization with a club member who was a Division Superintendent at one point.My feeling was/is that the NMRA does a good job on standards and recommended practices, and, as Paul noted, this is important.

However, at this point, before the organization can promote the hobby, it needs to promote itself to the vendors, manufacturers, and, yes, publishers like Kalmbach.  I base my opinion on almost 40 years of experience with national professional associations which have special membership categories of this nature.  The club member agreed with me.

There is one disturbing comment in this thread.  There should be complete, total and unconditional transparency regarding the NMRA finances including an annual budget and year-end financial statement audited by an independent CPA.  Otherwise, I would not think twice about joining the organization.

 

 

Other member-based non-profit organizations to which I belong or have belonged do indeed publish detailed, annual financial statements in their magazines.  That the NMRA does not is very suspect.  After all, without the members there is no organization.  And to whom is an organization indebted but its members?

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

rrebell

So that is only 8-10 paid positions at relatively modest wages.....or 4-5 people at a wage someone can actually live on......

Sheldon

You can buy a nice house there for under $100,000 and rent average for 2 bedroom under $1000. Now compare to where I live with average house over $700,000 and  rent for 1 bedroom at $1700. Just over the bridge where I used to live houses were around $2,000,000 and rents for 1 bedroom close to $2500 or more.

Everybodies idea of a nice house is different, I just bought one for $375,000 here in Maryland. We own rental, nice three bedroom townhouses, we get $1650 a month.

But $50,000 a year is hard to live on most places. And a $50,000 salery typically costs an employer about $75,000 total.

So, $400,000 does not buy much in the way of employees.

Sheldon

[richhotrain]

Howard Zane

This question has dogged me for years and I do not know the answer, but I'd suspect the NMRA could do more to promote our hobby. 

I think that this thread is based upon a false premise.

Why would it be the task of the NMRA to promote the hobby? That is not what the NMRA is set up to do.

I will agree that it would be great to see National Geographic, History or Discover channels do a program on model railroading, but it wouldn't bring youngsters into the hobby. It has become an old man's hobby simply because its time has come and gone.

My six grandkids all ooh and ahh when they see my layout, but it isn't something that they want to do. And it won't be when they grow up. It's over.

Notice that I didn't say that the hobby is dying, but the hobbyists are dying. Nothing lasts forever. And, besides, how many of us really care, other than paying lip service, whether youngsters will take up the hobby. Personally, I could care less. 

Rich

 

[Erie Lackawanna in Georgia]

Piedmont Division member here and have read some interesting comments above.   We are blessed with an extremely active Division here in Atlanta with 450 members.   Our monthly meetings average around 90 or so in attendance - and clinics at each meeting are a strong draw.

We have a booth set up at every show in our area with free information on the hobby, and a muliscale test track which gets a lot of use by kids and adults.  

There are dozens of both formal and informal operations groups, some of which go way out of their way to include newer model railroaders.   We also stage the Piedmont Pilgrimage for six weekends each fall with up to 80 layouts open to the public with thousands that attend.

i understand some of the thoughts above, but we get out of an organization what we are willing to put into it.  Getting back into the hobby five years ago, I benefited greatly from getting active in my local Division of the NMRA, made numerous friends and had the opportunity to operate and learn on some world class layouts!

Mike

[BigDaddy]

More correctly, you see that if you use google maps.   They sold that building in 2013 to the Tennessee Railway Museum

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/the-nmra-in-our-hobby-s-changing-times

[SeeYou190]

Well, this does not look good.

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If you Google the NMRA, it says it is "Permanently Closed".

.

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-Kevin

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[IRONROOSTER]

When I joined in 1972 the dues were $5.00.

Adjusted for inflation (using the governments CPI Inflation Calculator) that would be $30.76 today.

Actual current dues are $75.00 - that's a $44.24 difference.  Might be one reason people don't join. 

And why isn't the magazine distributed digitally?  My region and division do it quite easily on a much smaller budget than national.  I don't know what the printing and mailing costs are, but I would think it's a significant part of the $388,590 cost for the magazine.

Paul

[rrebell]

So that is only 8-10 paid positions at relatively modest wages.....or 4-5 people at a wage someone can actually live on......

Sheldon

You can buy a nice house there for under $100,000 and rent average for 2 bedroom under $1000. Now compare to where I live with average house over $700,000 and  rent for 1 bedroom at $1700. Just over the bridge where I used to live houses were around $2,000,000 and rents for 1 bedroom close to $2500 or more.

[IRONROOSTER]

mlehman

I'd venture what you're looking for is found in the first two lines under "NMRA Income" where Operations and Magazine are listed. You don't have to get the magazine, although it's part of the dues structure. But if you add the two figures, you can then divide by $75 and come up with a value of somewhere around 13700. That is very roughly about how many yearly dues paying members the NMRA has. The Life members and others add to that total. I think the actual number is around 17000+

So the 13700 dues paying members are carrying 3000+ member who don't pay dues?

mlehman

I couldn't locate things to be more specific

Exactly

mlehman

What is it you think is being "hidden"?

Well that's the question? - we don't know is the answer.

Paul

[NeO6874]

Depends where they're located - 50k is a bit tight here, but livable for a single person. 

 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

rrebell

 

 

mlehman

 

 

IRONROOSTER

It's so high level a summary as to be almost pointless. You can't even tell how much money they receive in dues from members.

 

 

It's an audited financial statement. It has to meet certain requirments to be that, which is actually important, even if the details don't get down to the level you want. I'll bet if you asked a specific question that you'd likely get an answer if it isn't covered by the exceptions.

I'd venture what you're looking for is found in the first two lines under "NMRA Income" where Operations and Magazine are listed. You don't have to get the magazine, although it's part of the dues structure. But if you add the two figures, you can then divide by $75 and come up with a value of somewhere around 13700. That is very roughly about how many yearly dues paying members the NMRA has. The Life members and others add to that total. I think the actual number is around 17000+ but I couldn't locate things to be more specific with the time I have right now.

Business Confidential and Personal Information are widely accepted exceptions in such audits and the NMRA is simply sticking to accepted practices here. What is it you think is being "hidden"? They have 2 full time and 2 part time employees, so there's not much that can be hidden anyway under those exceptions. I prefer to look at how well the organization meets its budget goals. In this case, they were within $30000 on a total income of almost $2 million. Better yet was that expenses, allocated at $1.8 million, came in almost $300000 lower, pretty darn good cost control when it's roughly 15% lower than projections.

As for mfg's "deep pockets" I think that is assuming a whole lot. However, the growing NMRA Partnership Program with various hobby vendors offers substantial discounts to members from about 3 dozen hobby vendors, with several more added every month.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just went over their tax returns, $400,000.00 in compinsations.

 

 

So that is only 8-10 paid positions at relatively modest wages.....or 4-5 people at a wage someone can actually live on......

Sheldon

[selector]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

...

All the NMRA needs is for all its critics to join, and for 10% of them to volunteer to do something.........

Sheldon

 

I couldn't have said it better myself, Sheldon.  Nice construction, and well said.

Our hosts have the same problem.  They have endless numbers of suggestions and requests for articles from people who would rather read them than generate them.  They can't do it all, try as they might...and do.

I believe I have related the following in years past: there is such a things as 'social loafing'.  It's the phenomenon where, when three or more gather for what is ostensibly a mutual pursuit or interest, approximately 2/3 of their number will actively apply their skills, knowledge, and time to the cause.  The others break off to the side to talk about stuff, go for coffee, excuse themselves for periods, and generally ensure that they are unavailable.  Later, they complain about the results, and hastily add that they had little part in them, so they can't be blamed.  They may even add more affront by claiming they weren't allowed to participate, or that they weren't polled, or that their advice wasn't heeded.

[rrebell]

mlehman

 

 

IRONROOSTER

It's so high level a summary as to be almost pointless. You can't even tell how much money they receive in dues from members.

 

 

It's an audited financial statement. It has to meet certain requirments to be that, which is actually important, even if the details don't get down to the level you want. I'll bet if you asked a specific question that you'd likely get an answer if it isn't covered by the exceptions.

I'd venture what you're looking for is found in the first two lines under "NMRA Income" where Operations and Magazine are listed. You don't have to get the magazine, although it's part of the dues structure. But if you add the two figures, you can then divide by $75 and come up with a value of somewhere around 13700. That is very roughly about how many yearly dues paying members the NMRA has. The Life members and others add to that total. I think the actual number is around 17000+ but I couldn't locate things to be more specific with the time I have right now.

Business Confidential and Personal Information are widely accepted exceptions in such audits and the NMRA is simply sticking to accepted practices here. What is it you think is being "hidden"? They have 2 full time and 2 part time employees, so there's not much that can be hidden anyway under those exceptions. I prefer to look at how well the organization meets its budget goals. In this case, they were within $30000 on a total income of almost $2 million. Better yet was that expenses, allocated at $1.8 million, came in almost $300000 lower, pretty darn good cost control when it's roughly 15% lower than projections.

As for mfg's "deep pockets" I think that is assuming a whole lot. However, the growing NMRA Partnership Program with various hobby vendors offers substantial discounts to members from about 3 dozen hobby vendors, with several more added every month.

 

 

 

I just went over their tax returns, $400,000.00 in compinsations.