This question has dogged me for years and I do not know the answer, but I'd suspect the NMRA could do more to promote our hobby. I was once a member, not so much for the standards page, track gauge, and magazine, but knowing or hoping some of the funds would go for more promotion. I was the co-owner of the Great Scale Model Train Show for 31 years and each year we offered free space to regional and national NMRA folks.....no takers. I'm yet to see a large display at a major show...or any show for that matter. Possibly I could have missed an NMRA presence, and if so I do apologize.
I have heard arguements that promoting hobby in mass media like Cable TV and other magazines would be futile. I'm not sure. I'd love to see on the National Geographic, History, or Discovery channels do a program on model railroading. Back in the 40's and well into the 50's model railroading was on TV. I'd think a national model railroad organization could and should promote coverage in mass media.
As a show promoter, we once tried to get more kids into the hobby by offering free admission to both boy and girl scouts, invitations to schools, free admission for teens, etc....no avail! We did find that the show attracted many newly retired folks as they remember trains, now have time for a hobby, and have the funds to pay for it. Kids have none of this. So what about articles in the AARP magazine, airline magazines, and other similar publications which could reach these folks.
The NMRA backed National Train Show is a plus, but it is really put on by local regions and pales to shows like The Big E in Mass.
Any comments or ideas
HZ
From Trains on Stamps to Master Model Railroader, the NMRA has left me behind (or, not kept up). And yet, that does not appear what is under discussion.
Is this ONLY a discussion about whether the NMRA is adequately promoting the hobby? That is what seems central to Howard's comments.
Ed
The orginization is a dinosaur. It was once very important but now there is so much infighting that it makes it ineffective. They used to fight for standards but that time is long gone. They make no effort to regulate the standards of the various regions so some areas have become nothing but clicks while others at great, no consistacy. I was a member but left, came back years later but nothing had changed.
Howard Zaneeach year we offered free space to regional and national NMRA folks.....no takers.
The Niagara Frontier Region must be an exception. They attend many shows in Ontario. There are usually 4 or 5 guys doing some excellent modelling and talking the hobby up with visitors to the show.
I choose to maintain my membership in the NMRA even though our club no longer requires it, if only to support their work in developing standards for what may come along in the hobby.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I have been a member for 46 years.
I think the chief benefit has been the standards (and RPs). As one who remembers command and control before the NMRA standard, I would say the standard has been the reason for DCC becoming so popular.
It's hard to tell since the NMRA is secretive about it's finances (even with the membership), but I don't think they have the money to promote the hobby.
One nice thing about the National Train Show is that it does occur in different parts of the country (unfortunately not all parts) and seems to have a large number of manufacturers. Never having been to the Big E I can't compare the two.
With the death of hobby stores and Toy R Us, train shows are about the only way to get people into the hobby. Unfortunately, many of the small local shows are really more like flea markets and have few if any good layouts. Larger shows like the GSTS and Greenbergs are too infrequent and/or too far away.
Another problem I see, is what are we promoting? What little the NMRA does is geared toward contest model building and mostly for adults. The operation side (OPSIG) has been become mired in minutia and paperwork. Frankly, it's Thomas the Tank getting kids interested in trains, but there isn't any real path from there to scale model railroading.
Getting electric trains into places like Walmart and Target would be a big help, but I don't see any way for the NMRA (or anyone else) to make this happen.
At this point standards are the only real benefit of the NMRA to the hobby. But that is important.
Paul
I looked into joining the NMRA and discussed the organization with a club member who was a Division Superintendent at one point.My feeling was/is that the NMRA does a good job on standards and recommended practices, and, as Paul noted, this is important.
However, at this point, before the organization can promote the hobby, it needs to promote itself to the vendors, manufacturers, and, yes, publishers like Kalmbach. I base my opinion on almost 40 years of experience with national professional associations which have special membership categories of this nature. The club member agreed with me.
There is one disturbing comment in this thread. There should be complete, total and unconditional transparency regarding the NMRA finances including an annual budget and year-end financial statement audited by an independent CPA. Otherwise, I would not think twice about joining the organization.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
I'm going to have to agree about financial transperancy. I would think any organization which wants to be above reproach should be able to publish an anual budget and what categories the monies are being allocated to. That is a reasonable expectation to have to mitigate any concerns of misuse of funds (which unfortunately is all to common if you read the news often).
It does sound like Howard has again, answered his own question, with the original post in this topic and used a question to point out a fairly serious endemic issue with the organization.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
bearmanThere is one disturbing comment in this thread. There should be complete, total and unconditional transparency regarding the NMRA finances including an annual budget and year-end financial statement audited by an independent CPA.
I totally agree, bear. Even my historical society, the NYCSHS, shares those annually with members and any non-members interested.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
The biggest benefit of the NMRA I've heard of is standards (1961) and DCC (proposed 1993, current standard 2006)
presumably it currently has some involvement with LCC today. not sure how they are involved
what is or should the NMRA be doing today if not promote the hobby?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Just kind of a bystander on this thread, as I know nothing about the NMRA, except the standards that have been set, but what is LCC ?
It seems that the only place I hear about the NMRA is in forums. I never considered being a member.
Mike.
My You Tube
I really do not want to start another argument about this, but Howard asked what the NMRA is doing to promote the hobby.
.
From my point of view... nothing.
I attended the National NMRA convention in Orlando, 2017.
The group did nothing, NOTHING!... to encourage any curious passers-by to get into the hobby. In fact, they openly shunned anyone who was interested.
The dollhouse convention in the next hotel over was a much more fun event. I even had more fun with the swimming pool sales convention in the Hilton where I was staying.
Shameful.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
mbinsewibut what is LCC
Layout Command Control
Having been a member of NMRA for a year, I found that organization unhelpful at best. Besides my mentor, no one offered to help me answer questions, etc. I attended one of their mini-cons and learned from the seminiars. The problem with a power-point slide is reducing things to the least common denominator.
The NMRA could easily encourage new blood into the hobby. Forget about social media blitzes and instead tap into STEM! There are many young kids engaged in robotics, wiring, etc. Coupling that with DCC is a fantastic way of potentially steering kids toward this hobby.
Bottom line: the NMRA has limited value. Their standards are of some help, but leave much doubt about their ability to draw new members. Gaining new blood is critical to encouraging the next generation of Howard Zane, Andy Sperandeo, etc.
The Green Mountain Division of the NE NMRA has a medium size switching layout based on Bellows Falls, VT.
Harrison
Homeschooler living In upstate NY a.k.a Northern NY.
Modeling the D&H in 1978.
Route of the famous "Montreal Limited"
My YouTube
Well I agree the NMRA could be more proactive in promoting the hobby.
I do have to say the NMRA saved the MSMRC after the 2016 flood, the insurance policy through them allowed the club to bounce back from that disaster without many lasting problems.
Walking into Walmart or Target and being able to buy the latest Athearn pr Walthers locomotive or rolling stock would be pretty cool.
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
Well, as a 50 year member of the NMRA, I agree, it could be run better and do more.
BUT, I don't have the time or the temperment..........
So I pay my dues to help support those who do. They are doing what they can.......
If you are not willing to chip in your dues or your time, what business do you have to complain?
By all estimates, less than 1 in 20 active, serious, modelers are NMRA members. Maybe if dues revenues were 10 or 15 times what they are now they could do more...........
Silly me, to think that one should pay, or work, first, then see the benefit later.........
Having made all those points, I will say that I have never been to an NMRA function. It just never fit into my lifestyle/situation, and I have a hard time justifing the time and expense of distant travel for such things.
I'm not that much of a social creature.........
But I consider the things the NMRA has done, and has provided me with, well worth the price.
Promoting the hobby......not my job, I did my part 40 years ago behind the counter in a hobby shop.
But, generally, I'm not one to try to recruit people into hobbies, churches, political parties, etc.
All the NMRA needs is for all its critics to join, and for 10% of them to volunteer to do something.........
Sheldon
gregc mbinsewi but what is LCC Layout Command Control
mbinsewi but what is LCC
Is that just a more generic umbrella name for DCC? For those of us who live in a cave (man cave), differentiate LCC from DCC?
gregc The biggest benefit of the NMRA I've heard of is standards (1961) and DCC (proposed 1993, current standard 2006) presumably it currently has some involvement with LCC today. not sure how they are involved what is or should the NMRA be doing today if not promote the hobby?
Just for the record, work by the NMRA on the Standards date to the 50's and before.
I still have my original print set of Standards, RP's and Data Sheets from 1968 when I joined. Still a valuable resource.
Many have original issue dates from the 50's.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIf you are not willing to chip in your dues or your time, what business do you have to complain?
To start with - if you don't see something worth spending the money on, then you don't want to waste it. Secondly, if you know about an organization which has a very long term vested interest in the hobby, it's definitely ok to have an opinion about it and ask the question Howard did, especially if he has an interest in the status and future of the hobby, as many do.
Silly me to think after all this time, a benefit should be visible to the bystander.
All the NMRA needs is for all its critics to join, and for 10% of them to volunteer to do something......... Sheldon
All well and good, but many of us don't have the time, but still may have an opinion and ask valid questions.
riogrande5761 gregc mbinsewi but what is LCC Layout Command Control Is that just a more generic umbrella name for DCC? For those of us who live in a cave (man cave), differentiate LCC from DCC?
From the useless NMRA:
https://www.nmra.org/lcc
Admittedly, unlike Howard, since leaving the hobby business years ago, I have no interest in making money off the hobby. So I see little benefit to me in promoting the hobby to others...........just like those of you who think the NMRA should prove its worth before you pay your money..........
My 7 year old grandson has an on and off interest in trains. A few weeks ago he and I had a great time at Strasburg, and Saturday we are going to the Greenburg show.
If he stays interested I will teach him everything I know.....
But if trains fade from his interest, I promise you, I will not be disappointed, upset, or loose one minute of sleep over the issue.
I don't like being told "what to like, or what I should be interested in", I did not do it raising six children, and I won't do it to him, or anyone else.
I think one of the things that troubles many making these comments is that it's all about me. Me is a likeable enough character, but when me is the main motivation for joining, me may be disappointed.
Why?
Like many associations, the NMRA is about us. Us is sometimes hard to locate, but generally consists of people who want to participate with others, contributing what one can while gaining from the contributions of others.
If you just need me in your life, then getting to know us is kind of difficult.
But we are out there.
Locally, our division -- the Illinois Terminal Division of the Midwest Region -- covers a large area with a relatively small membership of almost two dozen. We have had a booth at the Lincoln Square Mall Train Show every spring for about the last decade, thanks to the generorisity of the club that has operated the show for decades. The local club is getting up there in years and, frankly, the local division isn't a lot younger. The club was considering that 2019's upcoming show might be the last. In the NMRA, we do have a range of ages among us, from the mid-20s on up, and not wanting to see our area go without its biggest model railroading event, we are working with the current group to organize next year's show. Then it's on us to continue this community legacy.
We also helped a neighboring division, the Illinois Valley Division, bring their modular layout to the Monticello Railroad Days event this year at the Monticello RR Museum. It's a work in progress they acquired from a club, but it will be at several shows around the region in the future as they rework the scenery and maintain the track, etc. Our goal at RR Days was simple -- let kids operate. It was a great experience and when there weren't kids under 18 in line, we let kids over 18 operate, too.
One boy, in particular, had his grandparents bring him to the show and was just totally focused on learning as much as possible. Talking with his grandpa, we found out they were not exactly financially blessed and that he'd like to learn more to help his grandson build a better layout. Since they were attending both days, a brief discussion led to a nice little collection of cars, a couple of kits, and some basic how-to books from Kalmbach and others we gave to them when they returned the next day.
This summer also saw initiation of our new blog at http://cms.illinoisterminaldivision.org/ . While I still am doing much of the writing, although we'd like others to chip in, too, we try to keep up on local news about train and model RR happenings.
There's more beyond that, but I think we do pretty well considering the small size of the organization. Admittedly, we (the ITD) don't really publish annual finanical statements, because up to this point we've probably never had more than $200 in our divisional accounts. That will probably change once we start doin the annual train show, since somewhat more money is involved, but still a budget of around $4000 max once the show costs are taken into consideration.
However, if you want the latest annual financial statement for the national, it was published in the September 2018 edition of NMRA Magazine. AFAIK, it's been available in the past, but I generally am not a numbers guy so can't say more than it's just not true that the national's finances are opaque. They're not. How individual divisions and regions do it will vary, but I'm sure they're available on asking as ours are.
Speaking of NMRA Magazine, it's very competently edited by Cinthia Priest. That September edition also carried several stories about women in the hobby, along with the usual assortment of how-to articles, reviews of new stuff, and new innovative modeling techniques, along with news of the organization itself.
That's just a snapshot of what the NMRA does, even when we're rather small and limited in numbers. What binds it all together it that we regard model railroading as very much a "us" hobby process. We're still OK with "me" but consider it just the first step in really participating in the hobby in a way that makes it accessible to everyone who wants to be a part of "us."
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I took over as superintendent of the dormant Southeastern Region's Atlantic Division for a bit over a year. That division stretches from north of Myrtle Beach, SC to south of Savannah, GA, and is roughly fifty miles wide along the Atlantic coast.
We attended most of the train shows in the area during that time, setting up a table and banner with freebie reading materials from the NMRA. Other than that I also have not seen much of the NMRA at train shows.
Howard, would you know if the current owners of the Timonium show are open to having the NMRA set up a display? I'm now a member of the MidEast Region (NJ Division), and if so will ask around the divisions and region about setting up some sort of informational table.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
riogrande5761differentiate LCC from DCC?
DCC is intended to control locos via communication across the rails.
LCC is intended to control the layout. It uses a separate bus to communicate between nodes that sense block occupancy and turnout positions, and control turnouts and signals, among other things.
LCC also has a (wireless) spec for controlling locos that is separate from the bus controlling the layout.
unlike existing approaches which have some master communicating with various nodes on the layout, the LCC nodes are configured to communicate with one another. For example, a node detecting block occupancy will send messages to nodes that need to know that information in order to set signals, for example.
existing approaches using a master requires that the master poll each node. With a large number of nodes, response times will suffer.
The intelligence of the layout is distributed within the LCC nodes. I believe JMRI can be used for this.
the issue with having no master is that multiple devices may send messages at the same time, causing collisions. But CAN devices can quickly recognize a collision of a bit and immediately suspend transmission allowing the other messages to get thru. This maximizes use of available bandwidth
CAN devices are a more involved that simpler serial transmission that is common today (e.g. RS-485) that do not support collision detection and suspension of transmission at the bit level.
I have been told that LCC succeeds on larger layouts with (100s) of node where other approaches have had problems. This is what LCC is designed for, layouts with many nodes.
while LCC can certainly be used for even the smallest layout ... in my opinion, it would be overkill. But many modelers like to incorporate technology into their layouts.
riogrande5761For those of us who live in a cave (man cave), differentiate LCC from DCC?
LCC expands DCC from controlling trains and track to everything else that can be remotely or automatically controlled. Lighting, sound, signals, etc. Some has been covered as add-ons to the original DCC concept already, but the capacity of DCC alone is pushed to the limits in terms of what the bus can handle with many larger or more complex layouts. LCC is a way to add capacity, complexity, and functionality to the basic core of DCC to accomodate current and future needs.
My point about promoting to the manufacturers, vendors, etc. is that they have much deeper pockets than your basic modeler/hobbyist running around in a train room and fiddling with his/her layout. The NMRA could be a natural conduit for promoting the hobby and they also have the marketing expertise to suggest how to do it effectively and cost effectively. It is in their best interests to keep the hobby expanding and moving forward.
bearman My point about promoting to the manufacturers, vendors, etc. is that they have much deeper pockets than your basic modeler/hobbyist running around in a train room and fiddling with his/her layout. The NMRA could be a natural conduit for promoting the hobby and they also have the marketing expertise to suggest how to do it effectively and cost effectively. It is in their best interests to keep the hobby expanding and moving forward.
Manufacturers/venders deep pockets? Surely you jest.
If this industry had deep pockets, trains would actually exist before they were advertized for sale, stores would have "inventory", manufacturers and venders alike would not have "clearance sales" on product less than 24 months old, etc.
Rather they would work to hold the value of their products by not dumping them cheap to generate cash for thd next container load......
But what do I know........
I have been a dues paying member of the NMRA for the past two years.
Therefore I have the right to voice an opinion on where my money goes.
The NMRA could use some reform.
PruittHoward, would you know if the current owners of the Timonium show are open to having the NMRA set up a display? I'm now a member of the MidEast Region (NJ Division), and if so will ask around the divisions and region about setting up some sort of informational table.
Yes, the new owner, Scott Geare would most definitely welcome the NMRA. He can be reached from the web site. He is about the hobby before profit.
"As not what the NMRA can do for you, ask what you can do for the NMRA."
For anyone complaining about the NMRA, why don't you do something about it? Start a chapter and run it the way you think it should be run. Stop sitting around and telling others what they should be doing and do it yourself...or stop complaining.
No, I'm not an NMRA member, but then I don't complain about it, either. My local chapter (Hub Division) does quite well, and they are putting on their large train show this very weekend in Marlboro, MA. It's the 2nd biggest train show in Massachusetts (behind the Big E in West Springfield, of course).
http://hubdiv.org/fallshow/