Where is the FUN ?

[TurboOne]

This is long, but I am excited, happy, and frustrated with my local MRRs.

I used to be into trains back in the 60s and 70s. Computers and life has been replacing trains since moving out of my parents house. My son and daughter have way too much wooden Thomas the Train, so this Christmas we decided to check out where trains have gone. I started on EBay, checking out trains for sale. Thousands and thousands were there. I went to my local dealers in town, 2. Most were very high end, and the people came across as better than the common man. One guy though said to go to the GATS show and see the sights. The kids and I went and had a blast with the out of town clubs that showed their sets. Some dealers even had a running train. Play-Mobile I think. The kids had a blast playing, looking and even got to run some trains. We saw a 20 x 30 foot circus HO scale with moving rides. AWESOME.
Thanks to the internet, I have a pletoria of information. However here lies the question.
WHERE IS THE FUN ?

I dug out my 30 and 40 year old trains, set up a 4 x 8 on two sawhorses, and built an oval. Within 5 minutes rolled my engine off the table onto the cement garage floor. I went to the train store and got this answer: This train and the others ( I brought the rest in) were old and just basically junk. I needed to throw away my 200 pieces of track, old icky brass says he, and start all over. I bought some getting started books, and found out that to buy the track for they layout I liked was over $500. No trains, no power supply, just track. He showed me a 30 second demo on a new DCC engine, and then asked if I was ready to buy it. No smoke, no running on their nicely modeled display layout, just up and back on 3 feet of demo track. I could buy a inexpensive DCC controller and the engine for about $600. I said I would think about it. I went to the local club and they said my old trains, including some Tenshedo Brass, wouldn't be allowed on their tracks as it wasn't good enough. Most of the members were very nice, and answered my questions.
Most of the people I met, are over 50. No one at the stores acknowledged my kids, encouraged them, or said hello to them. I see the train business dying if this is the typical store salesmanship. Older people may have the money now, but in 20 years if there are no new customers, there is no business.
I would encourage all to make trains FUN. When someone new comes in, don't tell them their existing stuff is junk, throw it away. Tell them, I bet they have had fun with what they have, and look at some of the new stuff now available to ADD to their layout. Have classes for new people. How to classes, and how to take it to the next level. Not everyone wants a "real train."
For me personally, I want a train to go around my tree. I want presents as my tunnels. I want cheesy lights, and exciting buildings or decorations. I want to see the magic in my kids eyes when they see a train. Real is great to look at, but if you forget that not everyone wants to spend thousands on trains, you as the leaders can make it fun for everyone.
Spend 5 minutes and show everyone what a DCC engine can do. The smoke, the sound, the incredible detail, it all is fantastic, but treat us beginners like we are important. And most of all, make it fun for the kids, they are the future.
At the club, most of the members were very nice to the kids, and answered their questions and did offer encouragement, but were very serious about the train. The layout is incredible, but trains should be fun as well.
Todays newbies are tomorrows big "whale" customer. I love the new trains of today. The detail is fantastic. The question is, will I buy it from my semi caring, list price, dealer, or someone I don't know on the internet, or will I get lucky and find a dealer who wants my business, now and in the future. Better yet, a dealer who wants my kids business also !
Merry Christmas to all !

[ericsp]

Who is the manufacturer of the track? Go to http://www.walthers.com/ and do some searching. If you want to look at specific catagories instead of a specific product the print book (about $25, yikes) might be easier, but you can find what you are looking for on the website.

As for expensive locomotives, if you do not want to pay for DCC, don't buy it. Athearn Blue Box stuff is reasonably priced and are fairly nice (http://www.athearn.com/).

I am not a member of a club, so I do not really know how many model railroaders count rivets and the weight of the paint on real cars (don't laugh, soon there will probably be people doing that, if they can find out, okay, laugh). The amount of rivet counters does seem to be increasing, and it does appear that there are people who think that if a product costs less than $100 it is worthless. However, model railroading is what you make it. Only you can make if fun or frustrating, as long as kits are available.

[Anonymous]

[#welcome]TurboOne to the forum
You'll find that there is a wealth of information here so don't be hesistent to ask any questions![:)]

You pretty much hit what this this hobby should be about Having Fun!

[Jetrock]

As the commercial says, "Your mileage may vary."

Many clubs have gone to all-DCC control, which will limit what members can run on the club layout. A store owner's natural tendency is to sell you stuff--the grace and sincerity with which he presents his sales pitch depends on his own level of skill in doing so. Not everyone is a born salesman!

As to brass track: well, brass IS icky. It tarnishes, it doesn't look as good, and if it's 20+ years old it probably doesn't stay in gauge too well. If you don't mind how it looks or cleaning it regularly I'm sure it will work fine for you, so go ahead and use it.

For a lot of us, "real" IS fun--the kind of realism one gets from putting effort into researching and detailing a layout (and yes, some of us DO find that fun!) and producing a satisfying result, rather than the kind obtained through spending gobs of money.

If you don't give a hoot about real, then buy what you want and have the layout that you want, not the one anyone else tells you you should have.

[krump]

[#welcome][#welcome] TurboOne

Don't loose heart buddy... your "box set" from years ago is exactly what my CASTAWAY RR is all about - that, and the newer (to me) stuff that I've gathered at garage sales, swap meets, and occasionally at hobby shops. Prices have gone up - no denying that. The technology has advanced too - and that's good. Like you, I am using what I already owned - this is a HOBBY, and when I get good at it, it will be worth a bigger investment with newer equipment.
I began with the 4x8 sheet also, and now I am redesigning the entire layout into an extra room. I'm still using the stuff from 25 yrs ago. I have a limited budget, and I think that there are a lot of ways to avoid making this an expensive hobby. Many Model Railroaders eventually have some items that no longer suite what they are modelling - the items that they no longer want or need, might be sold or given away... I'd encourage you to attend / join the local model rr club, some swap meets etc Connect with other modellers in your area - the hobby shop might have a few leads here also.
You can learn how to make things inexpensively ( eg. 30 cent trees etc), by gaining insight from other modellers - the gang on this forum are full of ideas, a wealth of information, expertise, ability and know-how. Stick around, take a few notes, have a coffee (see coffee shop topic) and learn.
Set a budget, and make purchases accordingly - the $300 engine might be great to have, but it may take awhile to save for. Doesn't mean that you only need to settle for cheap engines etc.
As far as the track goes - nickel flex track might be the way to go (brass track works BUT needs to be cleaned too often, and generally not a great idea if you have the option of nickel track).
Make a loop, run a train, then learn some extra skills, and add to it --- I love the idea of the Railroad That Grows (beginning with a 4x8 sheet) or the Turtle Creek (Jan '05 MR)... lots of good stuff out there.
Mostly, have fun. Have a great Christmas.

[Anonymous]

I think most LHS owners believe the fun is selling you high priced items and that may very well be fun for them.Manf.produce more and more high end equippment to sell to the LHS probably fun for the company accountant to watch the profit rise.Once you sift through all the good information out there you will find that you don't need every option,or every feature.Your layout doesn't have to be a canidate for the hall of fame,Even with a basic loop and a engine or to of your liking,when you fire it up and see the look in the eyes of the children when it begins to move,I think you will know to atleast some degree where the fun really is.Welcome and Merry Chritmas. Terry.

[Eriediamond]

Welcome to the forum and the sane and not so sane!!!! I agree with krump and the others above. Back in the 40's Santa brought me my first electric train-a Lionel scout set. I spent many hours and a few years playing with that set and made towns and tunnels out of shoe boxes and card board and "painted" them with crayons. Not exactly scale, but to a young kids eyes very realistic. Sixty years later, I'm now modeling in HO scale and very lucky to belong to a club that cares about kids and the future of this hobby. We encourage kids to bring their trains and run them on our layout. Yes, prices have risen over the years, but so has the quality on the most part. I would bet that with a little tender, loving care and some good quality nick-silver track, your older trains would run just fine and be fun again for you and the youg ones. I've seen a lot of "junk" trains that all was needed was a litlle cleaning and tweaking to make them "new" again. To this old mans opinion, track is the key to reliable operation. Good old Atlas code 100 nickle-silver rail should be just fine for you. As your talents and the kids talents progress, then so can your layout and trains progress to higher levels. The main thing is to have fun doing it. Have a Merry Christmas and a good New Year.

[IRONROOSTER]

[#welcome][#welcome][#welcome]

First welcome back. As you have discovered, model trains can be big business with serious price tags. This is where the dealers make lots of money. There have been a lot improvements in the last 30-40 years that have improved operations of the trains. While you can certainly use the older items after cleaning them up, you probably want to upgrade your brass track to nicklesilver. You could do this gradually, but brass track requires cleaning more frequently. A good power pack with momentum from MRC should run your engines just fine - but it is generally agreed that older engines including brass ones just weren't as good operationally as what is now available. But what the heck I'd start out with them.

DCC is not a requirement. DC still works fine. If you want sound, dcc is one way to go or you can get MRC's under the table sound system for less - not quite the same as having it in the engine, but it works for all your trains at less money.

For the Christmas tree train you might want to consider a Lionel set like the NYC Flyer that has smoke, lights, and sounds. I have one and when I want a break from "serious" model railroading I run it. Having fun is what the hobby should be about. I enjoy the detail and building of scale models and I enjoy the Lionel set.

But as you have found out a lot of people think this a serious ADULT hobby to be done with long faces and much criticism of the guy who can't do it right. I say if your local hobby shop doesn't like children go somewhere else. One of the rewards of the hobby should be sharing it with your children.
Enjoy
Paul

[simon1966]

Turbo1, how old are your kids? Mine are 5 and 8. About 4 years ago we all got bitten by the bug and out came all my old trains. They are old and not that great, but they got us started. If your kids are in the 4-8 range, a great way to extend the life of the wooden Thomas track is to look at trains made by the Whittle Short Line railroad, found on the web at www.woodentrain.com They make more realistic locomotives and freight cars that run on the wooden track. My boys won't touch Thomas any more, but they still play with the Whittle trains all the time. All my 5 year old wanted for his birthday last month was a wooden Conrail Diesel!

As far as electric trains I started with some basic Atlas track with the attatched road bed and created a simple loop with a passing siding. A low cost DC power pack (Lots for sale on e-bay as people switch to DCC!). This did not cost too much, but was enough to run my old trains. They needed cleaning and lubing, but we were soon having fun.

4 years on and we now have a train room, a medium size layout under construction. The boys build simple Athearn Blue box freight car kits. They paint and weather their own cars and we have some great faimly time together. We are fortunate in that we have a very kid friendly hobby shop in the next town, but I don't think that it is a neccesity to develop a great family hobby.

Since you mention computers, don't be suprised if the DCC bug does not bite. I installed a low cost Digitrax DCC system and soon had my PC hooked up and programming decoders. I find the technology aspect of the hobby very satisfying. But then the great thing about this hobby is that there are so many people involved all finding different things to facinate them. The hobby really can embrace everything from museum quality modellers to a Dad and his kids having fun with an old beat up train set.

[cacole]

Five hobby shops in Tucson, Arizona have gone out of business within the past few years for exactly the reasons you cited -- a poor attitude toward their customers, lousy service, and overpriced merchandise. Many modelers today are turning to the Internet to purchase their items. There is one "hobby shop" left in Tucson today, and it is an Ace Hardware store! Their prices are cheaper than Internet dealers, and the manager is himself a G-scaler, so customers receive courteous service and can place special orders for any scale. His store is always full of customers because of his friendly, knowledgeable attitude, so his shop will no doubt survive and thrive as the word gets around.

As far as the items you own, especially that Tenshodo brass engine, don't pay any attention to those local hobby shop or local club critics -- Tenshodo has always been regarded as one of the best of the brass manufacturers, so you have a collector's item on your hands. Brass track is perfectly alright to use as long as you make the extra effort to keep it clean and it is for your own use.

I learned a long time ago to not pay any attention to the critics. We used to have a couple of them in our local HO-scale club. They were eventually invited to resign or be fired downrange by the club membership because we were there to have fun, not listen to their continual criticism of our "junk" locomotives and rolling stock. We now have a larger membership than ever in the history of the club, and it is a totally "free-lanced" layout with members free to run anything they want. We deliberately designed our layout so people can run using either DC block control or DCC because we realized that there would be members who could not afford to install decoders into their locomotives.

[Anonymous]

I don't know what part of the country you're in, TurboOne, but I'm sorry you had such a negative experience. As they say, it takes all kinds, and this hobby is no exception. I went to a model railroad display in a mall in the Kansas City area a few years ago and a local N scaler was in to calling Kato KAH tow and otherwise putting on airs. Other guys at the same display were real "down home". I have found a couple of local hobby shops where they treat you right and that's where I go. I hope you can find some in your area. Years ago when I lived in the Nebraska Panhandle I belonged to a club that encouraged junior members. I didn't care for some of the politics the adults like to play from time to time, but at least they encouraged the youngsters. They nice guys in the hobby and in the hobby shops are out there. Keep lookin'.

[Fergmiester]

You got Railroaded!

There are Hobby Shops and there Bad Hobby Shops
There are good Clubs and there are bad clubs

It's been said before and will be said again.

It's a hobby that gets you what you put into it. A wonderful past time and yes it can be epensive.

But for someone to say your brass locos are junk..... Well I'd question that!

There are some excellent starter sets for about $100, Bachmann Spectrum to name a few. Buy a Model railroader magazine and check out the adds.

If you have questions just ask us as the wealth of knowledge here is wide and varied as there are no Xspurts here!

Fergie

PS Welcome to our Merry band of Whistle Blowers

[TurboOne]

Thanks for all the kind messages. Just to update you, I am more excited about the hoppy then ever. My 6 yr old boy wants Santa to bring a "breakable Thomas", six year old talk for HO Thomas with moving eyes. Hopefully, Santa sets up the Bachmann Thomas and friends under the tree for Christmas, we will see in two days. Also he wanted a military train, because of all he heard about the war in Iraq, so we bought a Bachman. After Christmas, both him and my 9 year old daughter will be creating a building, and I will be proud to have their creations on OUR layout. We bought a gandy dancer handcar from a friend for $5, and he got more use on our set then he has in his whole life the former owner said. My son loves to make him go Mach Two. Our friend showed him how fun it is to go a more "realistic" speed. They now have slow contests, so my son is picking up things quickly.
To all the real guys, don't get me wrong, I love the layout at the club, and in MRR. The scenery is amazing, and I love the new detail on the engines and cars. I just believe fun first, keep the hobby growing, and let kids get excited. We met a really nice young guy at the club, and he offered to come over and share his ideas with the kids. I stll may join a club, we have two HO clubs in our town museum, 1 n scale, 1 o club, and a garden G club. I have always wanted to run my HO outside. HHHHMMMMMMM someday.
Thaks for all your posts, you guys are what MRR is all about. Sharing, Laughing, Teaching, and no matter what level, HAVING FUN !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[G60syncro]

Some people don't know how to run a nice business!! When I first started modelling seriously, I must have been 9 or 10 at the time... I walked into a hobbyshop in Montreal with my undecorated Atrearn SD40-2 and shopped for detail parts. The owner of the place was very nice and helpful. He showed me all the detail parts he had to make it look like CP Rail #5858... The parts he did'nt have, he orered for me... I had never ordered anything before in my life, so that's when I learned what a cash deposit was!! Montreal was an hour drive from where I lived, so we went there a couple times a year... Everytime I went there, he remembered me and served me well. When I went there recently, the place was different... Bigger, cleaner, new stuff on the shelf, but same great service!!

[TurboOne]

To simon1966;

I have two kids, a boy 6, and a girl 9. My boy is excited, we are working on his new Thomas engines today with a friend. My girl wants to build some models, so I bought some simple cardboard type to practice with. We found in my old box of trains, an old 7/11 building unassembled, and will start that after Christmas.

To jetrock:

I think real is awesome. My kids and I love seeing the museum layouts. I love seeing the incredible detail available in both the trains and the scenery. My point is at a club, I believe you need to welcome all levels, and show even the train set folks this hobby is fun for all. I have gotten excited over the high detail engines, and will be adding a cab-foward soon.

To Ericsp: awesome humor.

To Heartland Flyer: thanks for the welcome. The kids and Dad are having a blast.

To Krump: Thanks for the warm welcome. I have been in sales for years, so a few old negative people won't slow me down. Like I said most at the club were nice, and the only young guy, in his early 20s was especially nice. I found a new store about 1 hour away with a fantastic guy. The store is in the back of a craft store. Way cool. He has a good selection and is very friendly. Best of both worlds.

Thanks all

tim

[TurboOne]

To railguyho (Terry) and Ironrooster: You guys and I need to open a hobby shop for all, we can have some overpriced but detailed high end trains. But we also will have some entry level train sets, with classes on how to. That way we can get the starter folks to really get into this hobby. Bet the money wouldn't be bad either. Dreamin' in San Diego !!!!!!!

Thanks

Tim

[TurboOne]

To Fergie, G60, ebriley, cacole: thanks for all your positive hope. My buddy came over again today, and we tried out a new bachmann DCC and engine. It was fun, wished the engine had sound, but hey, only dug the train out two weeks ago.

Thanks again.

Tim

[twhite]

Any club that wouldn't let you run your Tenshodo brass on their tracks needs to have their collective heads examined! Welcome, Turbo, glad you're back in the hobby, but really sorry that you've had such bad experiences since you got back. You can run your Tenshodo brass on my Rio Grande California extension anytime you want, guy, they'll be right at home with MY Tenshodo brass and Akanes. (Maybe they were jealous when they realised just how much VALUE you might have in those locos?)
Tom

[TurboOne]

Thanks Tom, I would love to see some pics of your layout and trains. I am fitting my cars with kadee couplers so I can modernize my trains. It would be great to hook up, I am in San Diego where are you ?

I am buying a Cab Foward from a friend, and he replaced the motor with a VCR motor, and it can pull a huge train load. He added all the little details to the engine, so it meets the club standard. Can't wait to see how much it pulls in front of the club guys that laughed at my old trains. Hee Hee

[twhite]

VCR motor? Never heard of such a thing--sounds fascinating. I'm about four hundred miles north of you in Sacramento. Which means you live where that incredible Tehachapi layout is being built, right? I hope to get down there to see it before they trot me off to the Home. And I also think that San Diego should have some much BETTER hobby shops than the one you visited, that time. We have a couple here in the Sacramento area (Bruce's Trains/Railroad Hobbies) that are top of the line, both in product AND customer relations. They don't hoist their noses at my brass, they just drool, ha-ha!
Tom

[Roadtrp]

Welcome to the hobby and have fun!

Everyone gets to do it their own way. I started my layout a year ago, and I've spent about an hour a day playing with my trains ever since then.

Do I have a prototypical layout?
Ummm... no.

Do I have an expertly landscaped layout?
Ummm... no.

Are my buildings and trains weathered?
Ummm... no.

Do I stay consistent with the era I model?
For the most part yes, but sometimes... Ummm... no.

Do I love my trains and have fun with them most every day?
ABSOLUTELY!

Everyone should decide for themselves what they like about MR. I like building my own little world with built-up buildings, ready-made trees from Woodland Scenics, and landscaping that is fairly easy to create. I'm not going to win any awards with my layout, but I have as much fun with it as anyone has.

I basically have created the "toy train" layout I DREAMED about when I was a kid, but am doing it in 'N' scale instead of '027'. To me the realism is a whole lot less important than the fun. Do what you enjoy, and don't let anyone dictate what you should do.

It certainly pays to keep your ears open though to what the experienced folks here have to say. I may not want to implement their ideas on my FIRST layout, but I'm pretty darned sure I'll feel like getting a little more serious with my next one. This board is a great place to learn.

[:)]

[TurboOne]

The tehachapi layout is awesome, that is the club I checked out. Great guys but for me, very hard core. If you have Santa Fe or SP you can play, otherwise no. Some very nice guys, and very knowledgeable. The layout is adding a second story, it is amazing. There is also another HO layout, a N gauge, an O gauge, a cool LEGO layout, and a Wooden Thomas for the little ones.

I hear you have some amazing trains up your way, both real and good LHS. I travel to LA a lot, and that is a longer drive because of traffic from SD to LA then LA to Sac. Come spring, maybe we can hook up and get together. My kids love all trains, but Thomas is the king for now.

Tim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TurboOne

To railguyho (Terry) and Ironrooster: You guys and I need to open a hobby shop for all, we can have some overpriced but detailed high end trains. But we also will have some entry level train sets, with classes on how to. That way we can get the starter folks to really get into this hobby. Bet the money wouldn't be bad either. Dreamin' in San Diego !!!!!!!

Thanks

Tim

AH San DIEGO,That would be great,although I don't know if I would be a good partner or not,everytime I would see a young kid wanting something,I would be hard pressed not to just give it to them.Sharring with others, what others have shared with me is by far the best thing I get to do.Good luck I hope your vcr motored, puts all those old hardliners to shame.I would be sure to have your kids at the throttle when it does.[:D] You know one other thought on the hobby shop when you think of all the great people here in this forum we could get for tech support it probably would be the hobby shop of all hobby shops.Terry.

[TurboOne]

You have a great sense of humor roadtrp. I did go to Lionels website and WOW have they got some cool trains in fun scale. I even saw on MTH website a McDonalds where the lady takes an order. Way fun. I feel like a kid agains. Woo Hoo.

Tim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp


Everyone gets to do it their own way. I started my layout a year ago, and I've spent about an hour a day playing with my trains ever since then.

Do I have a prototypical layout?
Ummm... no.

Do I have an expertly landscaped layout?
Ummm... no.

Are my buildings and trains weathered?
Ummm... no.

Do I stay consistent with the era I model?
For the most part yes, but sometimes... Ummm... no.

I basically have created the "toy train" layout I DREAMED about when I was a kid, but am doing it in 'N' scale instead of '027'. To me the realism is a whole lot less important than the fun. Do what you enjoy, and don't let anyone dictate what you should do.

I'm one of the few people who never went through that "toy train" loving phase when I was a child. Therefore have no connect with a unweathered, undetailed, clean, grassmat covered layouts. I came straight up through the realistic stuff. Fun for me is going the real way.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BoRockhard

I'm one of the few people who never went through that "toy train" loving phase when I was a child. Therefore have no connect with a unweathered, undetailed, clean, grassmat covered layouts. I came straight up through the realistic stuff. Fun for me is going the real way.

Hey... how'd you know that I used a grass mat!! [:I] [:P]

That was just because I couldn't stand looking at the pink foam. I am covering it up with more realistic scenery made using Woodland Scenics ground foam in various sizes, textures and shades of green and brown. Some day my toy train layout will graduate and become an adult!

[:)]

[grayfox1119]

Hi TurboOne, welcome !!! I think after you have read all these replies, and more to come I am sure, you have seen by now that there are MANY MRR people across the country who are more than happy to help you with questions,and getting started, and plenty of encouragement. And remember, " the only dumb question is the one that never gets asked". I have one sonvery interested in MRR and 8 grandchildren, so I also know exactly where you are coming from.

grayfox1119 Cherry Valley, Massachusetts

[TurboOne]

Hey greyfox, thanks for the welcome. The kids and I are having a blast, and after the New Years Eve party tonight, we will start converting our 4 x 8 into a 6 x 10. Already have the plywood, the foam and just got bracing and support structure. I bought the kids some wood and cardboard kits to build their first buildings. They can't wait to get started....

Thomas under the tree is coming down for tonight, and will probably be rebuilt tomorrow in his room after the crowd leaves.

Thanks Tim

[grayfox1119]

If there is one big PLUS you will get from this hobby Tim, it is something that you can do together with your children as a family. That gives you prime time....something that families don't seem to do anymore and it shows big time. You will reap the seeds of happiness and fond memories from what you are doing TODAY!! Enjoy this wonderful hobby Tim, and have avery Happy and Healthy New Year!!!!

***

[TurboOne]

Happy New Year to all.

Thanks *** for the kind words. We just finished our new years party. Had lots of talk about the train with all. I got invited to the 3 rail exhibit at the museum tomorrow and just have to go check it out.

Barring rain, we will tear down the 4 x 8 and build our foudation for the 6 x 10 and be ready for adding the foam and maybe even some track bed maybe even track tomorrow.

You hit the reason I got back into trains, time with the kids. They can't wait to build something, and they will be a big part of the whole project. We still play video and computer games, but our train time is together time.

An awesome family hobby.

Happy New Year all

Tim[8D][8D][8D][8D][8D][8D]2005