I think I'm good putting all my eggs in your basket. You may not have all the answers, but you certainly seem to have most of them. I would like to hear from some other "experts" about the pros and cons of track alternatives...Peco, Atlas, etc, flextrack, track with preformed roadbed, etc. Choice of track seems to be a very important part of the entire layout and I want to be sure on that part of things. By the way, is there a PM option on this site? Doc
I'm not planning to go anywher Doc, so I'll continue to help in any way I can. I just wish some of the other members would join in as I certainly don't have all the answers!
Hornblower
Well, I am highly impressed with your knowledge of track. as I understand, I need to use Atlas flex track 83 for my Royalton layout and Peco 100 for my British layout. One last thing... don’t die or move out of the country! I’m going to need you every step of the way! Doc
Aahhh! Another can of worms. Flex track gives you much more flexibility when building a large layout. You can build a large layout with sectional track but you will be limited by the available curve radii and turnout sizes. Track with built in roadbed can be even more limiting. There are usually less track joints to deal with with flex track as well. If you want a British look to your track, go with the Peco Code 75 or 100 lines. Peco makes North American style track in their Code 83 line. Atlas is another favorite flex track in both Code 83 and 100 sizes. The Atlas rails are tempered to give them "memory" to spring back to a straight profile if not held (with glue, track nails, spikes, etc.) into a curve. This feature makes it easier to create smoothly flowing curves. Other brands tend to hold whatever shape they are bent into. This can make it more difficult to avoid kinks in your curves but the track will remain in whatever shape you bend it to while you attach it to your roadbed. Micro Engineering is one of the favorites of this type and is available in several rail weights. Rapido also has flex track but I've not seen any. I used Model Power (GT of Italy) Code 83 flex track on my layout but it is no longer available. Walthers/Shinohara track is another favorite in several Code sizes. Most all of these manufacturers sell turnouts in various Codes, diverging angles, radii and puzzle configurations (more jargon for you). You can also build your own turnouts using Fast Tracks or other methods. Building your own allows even more flexibility and can save you money. Check out the Fast Tracks web site for more on this option.
Lots of people swear by cork although I've had hit and miss experiences with product quality. I used Woodland Scenics foam roadbed on my current layout and like it better than cork.
As far as pricing, it's difficult to beat Model Train Stuff and/or Trainworld. You'll quickly see which brands are more expensive, too. If you find you have questions regarding specific products, let us know and we'll try to clue you in.
You raise the issue of track. Some more advice please: what sort of track do you recommend? flex track? snap together track? track with a built in road bed? which brand do you recommend? Where's the best place to purchase track/cork (if necessary) etc? Doc
I've settled on HO and OO for the obvious reasons most other people have in choosing those scales...space and money! Thanks ole pal. Doc
Before you spend time,m effort and money on S scale, make sure that the locomotives and rolling stock that you want are available.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
aprofitt0002I have decided to re-create a 13 mile section of the old rail line that runs from the Gun Creek Tunnel to the Tip Top Tunnel.
Sounds like a great place to start! I like the idea of a tunnel at each end of the layout as they will provide an easy way to hide staging tracks. As far as the length of the layout, 13 scale miles requires 788 feet of track in HO scale! Thus, you'll likely need to compress your version of this line. Even at six feet to the mile, you'll still need 78 feet of main line. Distance is always the biggest compromise in modeling railroads. In your favor, you plan to use two hidden helix structures. While a helix does not let you enjoy watching a train run a long open distance, it will help simulate distance (both actual and virtual) as the train's absence from sight helps the operator imagine greater distance.
Similarly, modeling actual elevation changes of 400 to 500 scale feet will also require more room then you have. A bit of vertical compression will also be required. Fortunately, watching a train climb even 18 inches on a typical model railroad looks impressive and most layout visitors will percieve a greater elevation change than is actually modeled. Your planned helix structures will provide significant help in this regard as they can offer substantial elevation change in a compact area. It is also fortunate that model trains will climb stiffer grades than the prototype. Depending on the desired train length and number of powered locos used, model trains can often climb grades up to 3% in a straight line and 2.5% in curves. The longer the trains you want to run, the lower the grade percentages need to be. Whatever you decide regarding the modeled grades and ultimate elevation changes, rest assured that no layout visitors are going to whip out a tape measure and start checking your accuracy! As long as the grades and elevation changes are percieved to be represented, your layout is a success!
As with the rest of the layout, the limiting factor for a helix is the grade. My own layout can support train lengths of only two locos and ten freight cars. This allows me to get away with helix structures of only 22" radius giving me an 18" elevation change with 4.5 loops plus approaches. With a rise of 3 5/8" per loop to provide adequate clearance above trains plus the thickness of the helix subroadbed, this yields a base grade of 2.62%. However, since the helix is such a small radius, the locos behave as though they are climbing a grade a little over 3%. It works, but in hindsight, it would have been better to use a radius of at least 24" for my layout (2.4% base grade). A 26" radius gets you down to a base grade of 2.2%, 27" yields 2.14 %, 28" yields 2.06%, 29" yields 1.99% and 30" yields 1.92%. Add .5% to each of these values to compensate for the grade on a curve and you find that you need at least a 29" radius to stay under a 2.5% corrected grade. Add two inches of clearance to either side of the track centerline and a 29" radius helix requires 33" of space. Instead of figuring the smallest radius helix you can use, I would focus on how large a radius you can make fit. Your trains will thank you and you'll be able to run longer trains.
There are lots of ways to build a helix. MR articles have covered several. Ready made kits are also available. The only real trick is to remember that you need to lay your track as you build each loop of the helix. Trying to lay track after the helix is complete is a real pain!
Thank you my friend. I'm glad you kept this thread going. It gives me another opportunity to "report in" on the progress I'm making. I have performed a labor of love in our basement enlarging the area for my layout. Not only that, but I've begun construction of my bench. In addition, I have been watching numerous "how to" videos...primarily those focusing on bench building and track laying and I have some very important questions at this point and I trust you can well answer them and give me the advice I need. Here in our county we have a Rail Trail where my wife and I ride bikes almost daily. The trail is 36 miles long (the longest in Kentucky) and it traverses 3 counties, Johnson, Magoffin (my county), and Breathitt. It begins in the town of Hager Hill in Johnson County, runs through Royalton here in Magoffin County, and ends at an old, abandoned coal camp called Evanston in Breathitt County (the Dawkins Rail Trail can be found online). My wife grew up near Royalton which was named after the Royal Timber Company in Canada back in 1919. The rail line was built to haul out timber and then later coal when mining hit its stride in the middle of the 20th century. The rail line shut down when the mines played out in the 1990's and was converted to a Rail Trail to encourage tourism. Royalton is now an official Rail Town. All that to say, I have decided to re-create a 13 mile section of the old rail line that runs from the Gun Creek Tunnel to the Tip Top Tunnel. The two tunnels will bracket my layout with Royalton dead center in the middle. Here are the issues I am facing:
1. Royalton is the low point at 857 feet rising on the one side to the Gun Creek tunnel at 1300 feet and the Tip Top tunnel at 1400 feet on the other end. The problem is, my layout is not long enough to represent this divergence in topography. I have researched and found that a 2% grade is about tops and that grade just wont get it done so I'm not sure what to do with that.
2. I have planned two helix turn arounds inside each tunnel area, hidden from view but still allowing me access to both. The helixes will bring the trains from the level of the tunnels to the level of my basic layout which will then run flat back through Royalton (a siding will serve Royalton). The helix configuration will be the same on either end. My question on the helixes is what is the smallest radius I can use on the helix. I have read that 27 inches is the smallest but I need to verify that.
Those are the two main issues I am dealing with right now. I know I'm going to need a lot of help in creating the "in the tunnel" helixes but that can come later.
Great to hear from you Mr. Hornblower. I look forward to hearing back on this. Thanks, Doc
Doc
Check out Steven Otte's sticky thread regarding posting pictures to the forum. I have not used Imgur so I don't know the particulars for that site. However, it shouldn't be too difficult. With a new reply box open, open another tab with your Imgur account. It should be as easy as right-clicking on the photo you want to upload, switching to the MR tab, then pasting the photo (Ctrl "V") into your reply.
Uploaded a pic of my proposed layout to Imgur and tried to post it here but could not seem to do so. I was wondering if the layout I have planned is able to support HO or OO or if I need to downsize to N. The layout has 4 "areas" arranged in an unclosed circle allowing access to each from the inside through a walk in and allowing access to two areas from both inside and outside. Area 1 is 7 x 3 ft. Area 2 is 9 x 2 ft. Area 3 is 6 x 3 ft, and area 4 is 3 x 2 ft. I was hoping to run two mainlines but I'm not sure this is enough bench room to do so. Sorry I can't be any more clear than that...but couldn't upload the pic I had saved to Imgur. Hope someone can reply and give me some advice on this. Doc
Sounds good! I plan on starting construction of my bench tomorrow...won’t finish because I have a lot of grading to do. I hope to post a pic when I finish and ask for layout suggestions. Dp
David
That's the great thing about this forum. So many brains to pick! You'll quickly learn the jargon and find that it really isn't that complicated unless you want it to be. I don't think you're ready for CTC computer dispatching yet anyway (more jargon to look up). Please feel free to pose your questions to the forum anytime. I certainly don't have all the answers but our collective information pool usually does. You'll also find that you'll often get more than one answer/solution/technique suggested so you can pick and choose whatever makes more sense to you. Keep us posted regarding your progress.
Although I've been playing with trains most of my life, I used to build and drive race cars for fun (until my eyes went south). Fortunately, I only played with aluminum transmissions!
Well, certain things have become obvious upon reading your fine email: 1) I now know who to call with any electrical problem! 2) you are most certianly not a novice, and 3) I can see that I'm going to have to learn a new "language" for model railroading...I had to do that restoring tractors and the same is going to be true for railroading. I do look forward to the learning part. I've always been an avid learner and I'm excited about all there is to master in this very promising hobby...I don't think I'm going to miss lifting 200 pound transmissions in the least bit! All thanks and I'm saving your email! David P. (Doc)
Don't sweat it! If you have the skills to rewire an old tractor, you already have the skills you need to wire up a train layout in either DC or DCC. I'm glad that you want to go DCC as it is sooooo much better than traditional DC. It's often easier to wire a large DCC layout than using DC.
My own layout is a 10' by 19' double decked layout currently wired to a single DCC command station relying on only the internal circuit breaker in the command unit. I have simultaneously run as many as three, two-loco consists with sound (by three different operators) for several hours with absolutely no problems. Yes, you can divide the layout into power districts and add multple boosters, circuit breakers and other components but you don't actually need all that to get started.
My DCC system has two wiring buses. One bus is the main track power bus consisting of two 14 gauge wires (one black, one red) connecting to the power connections on the DCC booster and running under the length of each section of the layout. The other bus is the throttle bus (Cat5 cables connecting RJ45 jacks) that allows handheld throttles to be plugged in at various places around the layout.
The layout uses 24 gauge feeder wires (again black and red to aid in maintaining the correct polarity) to connect each 3' to 6' section of track to the 14 gauge track power bus wires. That's about it for the track power. I do have two turntables and a "wye" leading to a small yard that each create reversing sections. These are handled by automatic reversing circuit boards with two-wire inputs and two-wire outputs. Nothing complicated.
For my throttle bus, I bought one finished Cat5 cable from a local electronics store long enough to reach each layout section. I also bought several Cat5 RJ45 jacks and wall plates to make several throttle plug-in ports. One RJ45 plug on the Cat5 cable connects to the command station and the cable then runs to each successive plug-in port where the color coded cable connections were made. Again, very simple to understand. I would recommend buying the Cat5 installation tools to make things go faster. These include a plastic cradle to hold the RJ45 jack and a wire insertion tool. I think I spent less than $20 at a local electronics store for all of the parts for my throttle bus. Wire for the track power bus cost about $50 mainly because copper prices are going nuts!
I soldered all of my feeder wire connections although a lot of people swear by suitcase connectors. Still no brain surgery though.
As far as selecting a DCC system, my advice is to actually hold and actually try to use a handheld throttle from each brand. Try setting up and acquiring a multi-loco consist on each brand throttle. I have operated layouts using four different DCC system brands and each has quite different displays, ergonomics and levels of user (un)friendliness. These systems aren't cheap and you will likely have to live with your purchase for the duration of your layout. Make sure you can live with the system you buy. Don't just buy the brand that the local club or hobby shop recommends as it's probably the system we all hate but have too much invested in it to publicly admit we hate it!
Well, Big Daddy, I’m about as ignorant as a mule looking at a new gate...there have been no former layout as I am making a transition from restoring tractors to model trains. Here’s how ignorant I am; two weeks ago I wouldn’t have known the difference between a turn out and a turnabout...need all the help I can get! dp
That's a broad question.
The Hornby site lists DCC ready (meaning it is a DC compatible but not actually DCC unless you install a decoder) DCC Fitted and DCC Fitted with sound. What is confusing to me is some of the DCC Fitted also have sound. Beware of those differences when you buy.
There are two other parts to you question, design of a layout and wiring for DCC. As a self confessed newbie, neither we, nor you, know what you don't know.
John Armstrong's book Track Planning for Realistic Operation is a must read for the first half of that question.
The difference between DC and DCC is that DC controls the track, DCC controls the engines. DCC likes a good signal with no voltage drop off. If you used a short pair of bell wires for you former layout, that isn't going to work for DCC. Not that it's hard, just picky.
Kalmbach has a couple starter books on DCC and you would do well to read one or two of those, before you start buying wire. Once you have some back ground, you will know what question to ask to fill in the gaps of your knowledge.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Just a quick question for a rookie... I'm having trouble designing my layout. I'm going to create a dcc system and I want to have more than a single line running north and south. I want to add turn outs and sidings and other points of interest. Any suggestions on where I need to begin and remember, you're talking to somebody who is as ignorant as a drum when it comes to railroads of any size. Also - did I get it straight that HO trains and OO trains are pretty well interchangable? David P.
Thanks for your confirmation on the OO scale. I've been poking around a scarcely populated site called BRMNA British Railway Modellers of North America and looking at some Youtube videos of British layouts and saw early on they were using a scale I had not heard of... the OO. My wife (Connelley) is from Ireland and my ancestors are from Scotland and we are both fans of British TV (yes...Downton Abbey and Idiot Abroad among others) so it just seemed to fall into place... a rail line extending from the fictitious town of Midsomer in York, through an Irish section followed by a section set in Scotland. My bench has 3 sides in a sort of U shape that invites such a layout so I'm onto this like white on rice. I've also realized a person can spend a lot of money really fast in this hobby. I'm used to buying an old rusty tractor and then spending 3 years or so rebuilding it...sort of spaces out the cash outlay. Stay in touch... David P.
Glad to hear you've settled on a project that you can also share with your wife (I wish I could interest my wife in my trains!). Not to confuse you further, but most British prototype models are actually OO scale (1:76 scale ratio or 4.0 mm to the foot vs. HO scale at 1:87.1 or 3.5 mm to the foot). Fortunately, OO scale still uses HO scale track (16.5 mm gauge) and Peco (a very high quality British manufacturer) offers European style track in both their Code 100 and 75 lines. Even though the OO scale trains are a little oversize compared to HO scale models, it can be difficult to notice as the British prototypes tend to be smaller than U.S. prototype trains. Thus, many modelers freely mix OO scale trains with HO scale structures, vehicles, figures and other scenery items. Since HO scale is the most popular scale today, you'll have lots of products choices available and at competitive prices. For a little inspiration, you might look up the original Thomas the Tank Engine videos (narated by Ringo Starr) as they were all shot on a beautiful OO scale layout designed to resemble the Isle of Man (though called the Island of Sodor in the videos). Don't bother with the current videos as they are all computer generated and visually suck when compared to the originals. Good luck and keep us posted with your progress!
Well, I must say I've had several changes of heart since my last post. After struggling with the space and cost requirements of O scale, and after visiting other retail establishments, watching innumerable Youtube videos, checking out various clubs and communitys, and after purchasing some basic equipment, I have revised my layout, increasing it in both size and scope and have moved away from my original thought to something my wife and I can both be involved in and that is a British countryside layout and design. My ancestors are from Scotland and hers from Ireland and we are big fans of British TV (yes...including Downton Abbey...). There is a British Railway Form/Club, the British Railroad Modellers of North America that fits exactly into our plans so I am now in the process of joining that group which is made of of people from Canada, the US, and around the globe who are united in the one area of British Model Railroading. I have also, after holding O, S, and HO and reading all the available stuff I can reasonably read, have decided to go with HO scale for a variety of reasons. I am getting ready to build my benchwork now and am excited to have finally decided on something that can truly be a "family" hobby (at least me and my wife...the kids are all grown and gone off). David Profitt
Great videos...thanks...went down to Lexington yesterday and visited Berkshire Trains on Rosemont Gardens Ave. The fellow there, David Sephanski, was very helpful...he's an "O" scale man and was able to tell me what the train I got when I was 8 years old is...a Marx. I'm going to have him restore the locomotives and rolling stock...lots cheaper than paying $1300 for a new loco. He has all prices though from $50 to $2000. Great little place. http//www.Berkshiretrains.com dp
https://www.nasg.org/
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Thanks so much, my friend. I appreciate the help and look forward to many years of happy "railroading." Dr. David Profitt
Good luck in your travels and product/info searches! I'm glad we've been able to help you learn more about what to look for and ask. I was curious about my own advice and logged on to the Walthers site to see what is available. While there is indeed a lot more available today in S scale, I still don't think it compares to the On30 selection. Interestingly, everything available in S scale is grouped together (trains, track, scenery, structures, etc.). However, looking up On30 shows you only trains and track. This is due to the fact that scenery, structures, details, etc., are all O scale regardless of track gauge. Thus, you also need to include all of the available O scale scenery, structure and detail products available, too. Trainworld currently offers deeply discounted prices on a lot of Bachmann On30 products, too.
I don't think I'd join a club 100 miles away as I don't think I'd be able to participate very often. Put your money toward your layout and ask any questions you might have here. While the forum may not be able to give you hands on assistance, we can answer a lot of your questions and may be able to refer you to videos that will provide further clarification. We were all newbies at one time so we've all made our share of mistakes. Please learn from our experiences.
I didn't see your previous pictures but I'm not much of a collector and likely couldn't identify what you have. No doubt, others can.
Thanks for the advice on the Walthers site. I'll definitely check it out before visiting the Berkshire Train Store in Lexington this Friday to give me some idea of cost. I think the Bershire visit will help me with an idea of scale. I have two possibilites of where I can build my layout and in this case at least, size does matter. There is a club in Lexington (100 miles from our home here in Eastern Kentucky)...the Bluegrass Railroad Club but I'm a little wary since they require a credit card number in their application for login...doesn't seem right to me. I should know more after my visit to Berkshire and Hobby Lobby in Lex this Friday. By the way, could you see the pics I uploaded a few days back? I had hoped somebody might recognize the brand, etc of that 60 year old train set I got for Christmas when I was 8 years old. Thanks for the help. David P.
You might also go to the Walthers website and explore what is available in each scale as well as the corresponding prices. Regardless of what scale you finally choose, there is no doubt that you will enjoy this hobby! Good luck and feel free to pose any other questions you might have. This forum is loaded with information and most members will patiently walk you through whatever problems you might run into.
I don't know whether you are fortunate enough to live in an area where an upcoming train show will visit, but these are great events to see the advantages of each scale first hand. Plus, the people running the trains are very knowledgable about their respective scales and most will talk your ears off.
I was just at the Great Train Show in Costa Mesa, CA this past Sunday and one display had side-by-side examples of each scale from G down to N. There were also several display layouts in Scales from G down to Z. The displays can also give you ideas about just what you'd like to model.
I tell you what I'm going to do. We're going to travel to Lexington Friday to babysit our grandson and I'm going to take that opportunity to go to a model train store there in town so I can see each scale first hand and talk to the proprieter there about the differences in availability, price/cost, size of layout required, and available technologies. Lexington is the closest large town to us...about 100 miles away. I can't find an outlet in this part of the state that carries anything other than a couple of basic, Christmas tree train sets. David P
aprofitt0002which would you select if you were just starting and wanted something heavier than an HO?
Either On30 or On3 should be easy to get started in. The majority of the commercially available "ready-to-run" rolling stock products come set up for On30. If you'd prefer to model the 3' gauge more commonly found on U.S. prototypes, you'll have to change out the wheelsets (and possibly trucks) on the On30 products to make them fit the On3 track gauge (unless you find equipment already set up for On3). Commercially available flex track and turnouts are available in both gauges although there are fewer manufacturers of On3 track.
In short, On30 should be less expensive to get started.