Ok, sounds wierd, but I have two HO freight cars which I recently converted to metal wheels. One Athearn BB flat car with P2K metal wheels and the other a covered hopper of unknown manufacturer but fairly recent with Kadee metal wheels. With both of these cars I was getting frequent and mysterious derailments on mainline track - no turnouts involved. Mainline track is Micro Engineering Code 83 flex, while staging and reverse loops are Atlas Code 83 flex. I have watched these two cars for hours and they derail in different places, mostly some obscured out of the way place. I have checked joints and checked gauge with several HO gauge tools, but the track looks good. I have checked wheel gauge - everything is perfect. I even put the flat car at the back of the train and still got derailments.
Now it gets interesting. Out of desperation I changed these two cars back to plastic wheels, and moved them to the front of a 19 car train, and not a derailment since.
I have many other cars running metal wheels. Estimate 60% of my rail cars are on metal wheels, and I am slowly converting the rest, until this experience!
Any idea what may be going on here? All my previous experience has been that metal wheels are more accurate and you should expect less derailments.
Thanks for any thoughts.
Doug
Welcome to the forum
I can't say why plastic works and metal does not, but one issue may be the cars are too light. Athearn cars typically need more weight to bring them to NMRA standard. If the flat has no load for sure it's too light. If the covered hopper is a plate C car like a grain hopper, they often are light as well.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Some questions for you, Doug:
Flat cars are notorious for derailing if they are light and do not have enough weight to them. You may need to secure lead or metal sheeting to the underside of the body. That should help. The covered hopper may be suffering the same issue and need additional weight added, as well.
The other thing you can do is to switch out the trucks for different ones to see if you can replicate the issue. (I would test with both plastic and metal wheels.) If the derailments cease; it's the trucks. If the derailments continue; it's the car. My guess is that both cars are too light.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Sounds like a problem I had once upon a time. Check to make sure the wheels are round. Believe it or not, I have had two wheels over the years that were not round. That caused derailments in random places for me.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Halloween is the perfect time for problems like this to arise since the supernatural is the most obvious explanation.
Nonetheless ....
Checking the gauge of the flanges with the NMRA standards template is good, but it is important to make multiple checks of the same wheel if by chance it is not mounted squarely on the axle. One part can be in gauge, another not.
In addition to the suggestions made above by Tom (most particularly the free rolling part, which is crucial), it might be interesting to just rearrange the metal wheelsets within the trucks and see if the problem is the same - that is, if each wheel is placed in a new location. Sometimes there are combos of wheel and truck that don't work, just as there are some combos of truck and car that don't work. Axle ends differ between makes for example.
One other possibility strikes me and I do not mean to be insulting but is there a chance some 36" metal wheels snuck into your supply of 33" wheels? That can cause all manner of issues. Not just rubbing on underframe or coupler draftgear box, but two sizes of wheel in the same truck causes issues of its own.
Also, if like me you use a wire brush in a Dremel to make the surface of the metal wheel tread shiny like the prototype, if you miss a spot that can leave a bump on the tread (particularly with Kadee wheels).
As to the lightness of flatcars, in theory the greater weight of metal wheels should make things better not worse. But not if they don't roll as freely.
Dave Nelson
(I was writing this as Dave was writing, above. I'll just leave it as-is.)
Since the cars were at the back of the train, I don't see how being too light is the problem. Especially since they were also "too light" with the plastic wheels, and they ran fine.
For the Athearn car, it can't be that the truck screw is "too tight", because there's a protruding boss that prevents that.
And it can't be just that they're metal wheels, because 60% of the fleet is doing fine with metal wheels.
It surely feels to me that it's a simple interface problem between truck and wheelset.
As pointed out already, the wheelsets should spin freely.
There's a slight possibilty that the wheelsets are too loose in the trucks. I've run up against that on some (all-the-same) cars. The side-to-side slop caused the wheels to rub on the underframe.
I note that one brand of wheelset went on one car, and a different brand on the second. I wonder what would happen if you switched the wheelset brands.
I also wonder was the derailed truck always the same truck on the car. What happened when you turned the car around? What happened when you switched trucks on the car?
Also, while I am dismissing the weight problem, it would still be interesting to run the flat car in its derailing "mode", and then add a lump of weight to the car and see if it stops it. A very simple spearmint.
Ed
We know it is very likely to be the wheels and axle. They're heavier than their plastic counterparts, so weight should not be a factor.
As Brent wisely asks, are the wheels really correct? Axle length correct? Do the wheels' flanges fall line astern when both axles in each truck are pressed hard to one side? Are the flanges free of defect in form and from burrs or warping? Are the wheels misshapen? Is one of the axles, or both, truly straight when mounted in the trucks, or is there a wobble imparted by some hitherto unseen bending? Is the wheel and flange diameter the same as those of the plastic wheels? Are both axles parallel in all viewable angles (looking at them with the car inverted and then from the ends of the trucks)?
If all those check out, look for sags in the outer rail on curves. They'll trip up the unwary every time. Even minute one over several inches that only sag a part of a millimeter can make a different to a wobbly car.
Yes, it pretty much boils down to either the metal wheelsets being slightly out-of-gauge, or the wheelsets not 'seating' right. Not all wheelsets will fit all trucks, some trucks use wheelsets having pointed axles, some need wheelsets with blunt axles. Plus, not all pointed axles have exactly the same 'point' on them.
Do the metal wheels look similar to the plastic ones? If not it's possible you accidently picked up some 'semi-scale' metal wheelsets, wheels with a much narrower profile than typical model wheelsets.
I would put the wheels in question on another car, maybe a couple of other cars and see if the derailment transfers to the other cars. If it does the wheels are suspect, if not the original car has a problem. either way you can determine if it is the wheels or not.
Lots of potential answer to the question. Given the stated facts, my guess is that the OP got the screws attaching the trucks too tight in the first case, then managed to adjust them to the proper tightness/looseness when remounting them with the plastic wheels.
To test this, reinstall the metal wheels, then tighten the bolster screws properly to see if that works.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehman Given the stated facts, my guess is that the OP got the screws attaching the trucks too tight in the first case, then managed to adjust them to the proper tightness/looseness when remounting them with the plastic wheels.
Given the stated facts, my guess is that the OP got the screws attaching the trucks too tight in the first case, then managed to adjust them to the proper tightness/looseness when remounting them with the plastic wheels.
Not on the Athearn flat. The truck mount screw tightens onto a projecting boss first.
Hello all,
Great suggestions and things to consider!
You mentioned that you use Code 83 track.
What are the code of the wheels you bought?
From the Kadee web site (Bold text added by me)- -
"The term Code 110 and Code 88 relates to the width of the wheels and has no relationship to track code. Code 110 wheels are .110" wide and Code 88 are .088" wide. Code 110 wheels are the common (or "Standard") width wheels and Code 88 are what is called "Semi-Scale" and are used when the modeler wants a more prototypical looking wheel width. Actual HO-Scale prototypical wheel width would be around .067" wide and although they will run OK on the average track they will not go through common turnouts and crossings. Code 88 (.088") is just about the minimum width of wheel that will run on most standard or common track if gauged correctly."
You can run code 88 or 110 wheels on code 83 track.
On my pike I run code 100 track and both code 88 and 110 wheels.
My preference when replacing wheels is code 110. I am not as concerned about esthetics over reliability.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
G PaineAthearn cars typically need more weight to bring them to NMRA standard.
Actually its a Recommend Practice not a Standard.Weight is not the cure all in this case I fully believe a wheel is out of round or slightly bent axel.
I have never used RP20.1 and have no derailment issues.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I've stuck 2 unloaded flat cars in the middle of a 25 or so car traina dn DELIBERATELY did hard stops and starts and couldn;t get them to tip over or otherwise derail. Its not the weight.
Almost every one of my cars has P2K metal wheels in them, that includes dizens of Athearn hoppers. The few that don't have P2K wheelsets are ones that already came with metal wheels - Kadee cars, Branchline, a few random others. The P2K wheels seem to be the proper axle length for Athearn and Accurail kits. There are no plastic wheels on my layout
One thing I do is use the truck tuner tool in each axle slot. Micro Mark adn Reboox each have one, one of those is too short and of the top of my head I forget which one that is - you don't want that one, you have to squeeze the trucks far too hard to use it.
I suspect truck mounting or some form of interference is the contributing factor here. Maybe excessive overhang coupled with tight curves.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I tried metal wheels once upon a time and had a lot of trouble with them so I gave up and went back to plastic which solved the problem...
I am just spitballing here, but my guess is that you have an out of round metal wheel or two. I use metal wheels on HO code 70 track and I have no issues with Intermountain brand wheels. I have however seen one Walthers rtr caboose that came with a wheel so badly out of round it looked like a cartoon from the Toonerville trolley.
Old Fat Robert
Interesting, I've used dozens upon dozens of P2K wheelsets, though most purchased before Walthers bought Life Like - in those days you could get a pack of 12 wheelsets for like $3.50 from MB Klein (Modeltrainstuff - I presume they just went down the road to Life Liek and piced up a pallet or two at a time which is how they coudl sell them for liek half the typical price anywhere else). I have NEVER had a bad set, out out of gauge, out of round, or tilted on the axle. Not one. I did have a Branchline kit where one wheelset had a chunk missing ou of one wheel. ANd I have a half dozen of the P2K cabooses, no issues with those other than the add-on brake shoe details actually rub the wheels so the brakes are on - have to take those off to roll freely. They do NOT fit the P2K replacemend wheelsets, but the included wheels are metal anyway.
My goal as always is derailment free operation. and on my last two layouts I've always achieved this. My train rarely derails on the club layout, either, which has track all over the place in terms of how well it was laid and the vintage - pplus loose fitter pieces between many modules with HUGE gaps.
marksrailroad I tried metal wheels once upon a time and had a lot of trouble with them so I gave up and went back to plastic which solved the problem...
Mark,
Like Randy I've replaced all the plastic wheels on my rolling stock with metal ones and I don't experience any problems. For the majority of them I used Proto 2000 33" wheel sets. The few that didn't work well I either reamed the trucks with the Reboxx tuner, and/or used a different manufacturer like Intermountain. I only use the truck tuner IF the wheels spin <5 sec. when flicked slightly with my finger.
Guys, thanks for the many great suggestions. Based on them and additional checking, here is what I have found:
1. All metal wheels are 33". I don't own any 36" sets.
2. Axle length of the plastic sets vary from 1.016 to 1.021". The P2K sets are 1.011" long, while the Kadee are 1.016" long. All axle ends are pointed and approx the same shape as the plastic sets.
3. The metal sets are round and true running. Double checked.
4. Yes, the Athearn flat is light, however the covered hopper is weighted and weighs 4.6 oz. At 5.5" in length, the NMRA recommended weight for this car I believe is 3.75 oz.
5. The trucks rotate freely. I normally adjust one truck with very little lateral wobble but still rotate freely, with the other truck looser. So that is the first thing I tried was to loosen the tighter truck. No difference on derailments.
6. The trucks seem parallel with axles parallel.
Findings: I changed back to metal wheels but switched wheelsets, so P2K wheels were in flat and Kadee in Hopper. Hopper derailed again, but flat was ok. On further examination of the hopper I found an offending truck on the hopper had a hairline crack in the mounting hole bolster. Ah ha! This resulted in a slight skew of the sideframes. I replaced that truck and no more derailements! (fingers crossed). My conclusion is that the slightly shorter axles of the metal wheels was enough with the broken truck to cause some slewing of the axle. Longer plastic axles was enough to keep it aligned. Lesson learned! Check trucks carefully!
Changing to different metal wheels on the flat car for whatever reason seems to have resolved that issue. And I was running both of these problem cars at the head end for this latest perfect run with no derailments.
Thanks for all the replies and recommendations!
Doug,
Thanks for the detailed update and confirmation, Doug.
I had a defective truck (due to incompelte filling in the molding process) that allowed the points of the wheels to slip out of the journal. I contacted the manufacturer and they sent me replacement trucks (with wheels) and the problem was solved.
Yea, sometimes you have to use the "Sherlockian" method to pinpoint where the problem lies. Congrats on capturing the culprit!
Glad you figured it out. Just as a point of reference, about 10 years ago, Walther's had a major change in the manufacturing quality on their Proto2k metal wheels. The quality dropped quite a bit. I wouldn't touch them any more at any price. I've been all intermountain ever since. Obviously not the problem here, but something to note.
Also, FYI, you very well can over tighten an Athearn truck. I have done it many times. The mount is about the same depth as the truck and the plastic is soft.
7j43k mlehman Given the stated facts, my guess is that the OP got the screws attaching the trucks too tight in the first case, then managed to adjust them to the proper tightness/looseness when remounting them with the plastic wheels. Not on the Athearn flat. The truck mount screw tightens onto a projecting boss first. Ed
Ed,
Not so sure about that. Don't have any of the flats in the fleet any longer, but as I recall the mounting is pretty much the same as on the BB boxcars. Yes, there is a boss on the bolster, but I can crank the truck munting screw tight enough that the truck won't turn. YMMV.
Axle length has to be pretty close - too loose and the wheel willw ander and possibly cause derailments. Too long and the wheel will be tight in the truck and cause derailments.
I WAS all P2k - but I will be getting Intermountain going forward - plus Intermountain are easier to install resistors on for block detection.
mlehman 7j43k mlehman Given the stated facts, my guess is that the OP got the screws attaching the trucks too tight in the first case, then managed to adjust them to the proper tightness/looseness when remounting them with the plastic wheels. Not on the Athearn flat. The truck mount screw tightens onto a projecting boss first. Ed Ed, Not so sure about that. Don't have any of the flats in the fleet any longer, but as I recall the mounting is pretty much the same as on the BB boxcars. Yes, there is a boss on the bolster, but I can crank the truck munting screw tight enough that the truck won't turn. YMMV.
Guys the BB 40' and 50' flats had the standard BB truck mounting system whereas the 89' flats had a swing coupler arm that was part of the truck mounting.
The 40' flatcar trucks used a shorter screw than the boxcar, 1/4" vs 5/16", for obvious reasons. In my experience it is possible to over tighten all the Athearn blue box freight car trucks, although I can't speak to the 89' flats or auto parts boxcars (yet - they are sitting unbuilt on the shelves).
I don't doubt that you guys CAN tighten Athearn truck screws so much that you squash the center boss down enough to bind the truck.
I just wonder WHY. I've been building (not lately, admittedly) Athearn blue box since 1958, and have had good success with just tightening the truck screw enough to lock it in place. Then I STOP. I guess I could keep going and going, but that would kind of negate the purpose of the boss--to limit truck binding. And keep the truck screw from falling out. Something that was known to happen with "boss-less" truck mounting back in the day.
7j43kI've been building (not lately, admittedly) Athearn blue box since 1958, and have had good success with just tightening the truck screw enough to lock it in place.
Ed,My standard method is to tighten the truck screw all the way down until the truck can't move and then I back it off two to two and half turns that kept the cars from rocking or as I like to say as it shimmies down the line like Little Egypt .
7j43kI don't doubt that you guys CAN tighten Athearn truck screws so much that you squash the center boss down enough to bind the truck. I just wonder WHY.
Well, not every one was born the perfect model railroader with no need to learn from experience. I muddle along as best I can and usually do OK, but have spent a lot of time observing how things go wrong for others. And if things can be mis-aimed at all, some human being will do it. Best thing to do is try to gently encourage them to do better, pass along tips from your own lessons learned (of course, if you've never needed to learn anything, this might be optional), and don't rub in the fact that you've gone all day without breaking something, miscutting it, or other getting things sideways to the track.
Life is hard for the imperfect, but we do OK and still have fun if we look at these as opportunities for education.
In this case, the OP clarified that he didn't believe this was an issue and that's a positive contribution, too. Someone else reading through the trials and travails detailed here will come away having learned something, maybe even that you don't overtighten things, but only because many of us described what went wrong for us. Not sure that observing that you've never had this problem helps as much, but some may draw a lesson from that in their own way. There is value in error, too, yours or someone else's, if it is properly applied to the future balance of your life.
BRAKIE 7j43k I've been building (not lately, admittedly) Athearn blue box since 1958, and have had good success with just tightening the truck screw enough to lock it in place. Ed,My standard method is to tighten the truck screw all the way down until the truck can't move and then I back it off two to two and half turns that kept the cars from rocking or as I like to say as it shimmies down the line like Little Egypt .
7j43k I've been building (not lately, admittedly) Athearn blue box since 1958, and have had good success with just tightening the truck screw enough to lock it in place.
I only tighten my truck screws until the truck is snug and no longer rotates then back the screw off ~1/4 or so turn. That keeps the truck flush up against the bolster but still allows it to rotate semi-freely so that the car can negotiate curves. It's worked quite well for me.
Having said that, I have run across a few pieces of rolling stock where the truck would NOT snug up to the bolster and continue to rotate. In cases like that I just tighten the screw as best I can to minimize the vertical play of the truck.
I'll remind youse guys that there are (at least) two ways to mount trucks to cars:
The (undoubtedly) original way was to have a smooth surfaced truck bolster and car bolster. You ran a screw through a clearance hole in the former and a "threaded" hole in the latter. Thus Brakie and Tom could do that trick of bottoming and backing screws out a bit. I put quotes on threaded, because some times there would be a real tapped hole, and other times it was a self-tap, and other times it was a wood screw. A REAL tapped hole just isn't interested in keeping a screw in when it's upside down.
A very long time ago, I noticed that on some of my rolling stock, the backed out screw KEPT backing out over time. And the results made me sad.
Like everyone else in the HO community at the time, I also had Athearn cars. THOSE had the little boss around the hole in the car bolster. You COULD tighten the screw without clamping the truck bolster tightly to the car bolster. The truck was able to wiggle around. And the screw was in tight.
Using the "Athearn" system, screws would never unwind again. I started adding my own boss by cutting off the tube inside the Kadee #5 box. Which, if you had Athearn cars, you had a lot of.
Screws didn't fall out anymore.
But wait, there's more:
I also had some AHM cars. And I noticed that they didn't do the Little Egypt shimmy. Which is very unprototypical, not because it happens, but because it happens at way too high a frequency to be believable. Anyway, those AHM cars had a three point suspension. One truck was free to rock every which way. The other truck had two pins that would only allow front-to-back rocking. Worked great. So I started copying the idea. And still do. I've got 48 Red Caboose coil cars I finished recently. And they go around a layout in majestic not-shimmy.
I do realize you can get a similar effect by tightening one truck screw up "just so". My gripe with that is that the screw(s) isn't/aren't tight. And can still back out. The way I do it, both screws still tighten up to the boss, but allow the movement I mentioned above.
Now, if you are able to do that back-the-screw-out-slightly trick, and it never BACKS OUT, that's great. But it's so easy for me just to slice up another couple of coupler pockets, and I KNOW mine won't back out.