Steve McDonough Why not check out Lowe's in New London ,CT for 2'x2' common pine square panels. Pre cut and sanded on one side you could build around the room and make a point to point layout that can be taken apart if needed. Screw and glue each section (double up to make a 2'x4' rectangle) and connect each with removeable wingnuts on the side of the boxes used to support the edges. You could make a "U" shape point to point layout or around all the walls if the room is big enough. The sheet squares are 15/32 " thick so sagging won't be a problem. You will have to cut the edges using dimensional lumber,1" by 4" is good which come in 4' lengths there at Lowe's. Happy building. Steven McDonough
Why not check out Lowe's in New London ,CT for 2'x2' common pine square panels. Pre cut and sanded on one side you could build around the room and make a point to point layout that can be taken apart if needed. Screw and glue each section (double up to make a 2'x4' rectangle) and connect each with removeable wingnuts on the side of the boxes used to support the edges. You could make a "U" shape point to point layout or around all the walls if the room is big enough. The sheet squares are 15/32 " thick so sagging won't be a problem. You will have to cut the edges using dimensional lumber,1" by 4" is good which come in 4' lengths there at Lowe's. Happy building. Steven McDonough
I went to Ring's End in Niantic, CT (because it is a rail served lumberyard). They also had high quality lumber. I had difficulty finding straight (not warped or cupped) lumber at both big box stores.
As far as plywood panels goes, a cheaper way might be to buy a 4x8 sheet for $21.93. They (HD) will do up to 4 (or was it 5) cuts for free. 50 cents per cut after that. 3 cuts will give you 4x 2'x4' panels. Comes out to about half the price of the precut panels.
Ive already built a layout (made freestanding standing sections somewhat like you describe due to living in an apartment). I disassbled it when I moved. That layout really isnt useable in my new space (was designed to fit the old space).
My current layout is made from modular sections (its technically a sectional layout because it will only go together one way). Most of them comply to the local modular club's standards.
The original post was meant to start a discussion on what would be the best type of "starter" layout to recommend to new people coming into the hobby. Not specifically for me, but just in general.
An avenue not yet discussed would be to join a modular club (if you are socially inclined). Its definitely not for everyone, and it is best if you are fortunate enough to have multiple options to shop around a bit for the best club for you.
My first layout was 4' x 16'. Later enlarged to 4' x 20'. This was 0-27 scale. Second one was/is 3' x 6' N scale. still never finished but got a spot to put it. Current one under construction is 14' x 28' with a peninsula. Seems like the fates are against me on building this one tho. Roof leaked, roof & ceiling collapsed, and now am putting a new roof over the building. Hope to have the major repairs done by snowfall time.
Surprising what you can fit into a small space (N) and can't get into a larger space (HO). I think first find the space you have available and then decide what scale you can fit into that space. I see people getting a boatload of one scale and then finding out it won't fit their space. Imagination is bigger than their room. I think a 4' x 8' is a size easiest handled in most rooms/basements. But it can give you the "build a boat in the basement" problem. Suggesting other shapes made out of a 4' x 8' is a better idea IF you make it able to be broken down in the event of a move.
Forums such as this give a lot of advice to noobies and oldies alike. Keep up the great work!
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
My first layout was of course N scale and was very small compared to the one I have now which is six feet six inches long by three feet wide. I just wish I had room for a 4X8 foot table...
I also think its here to stay, many modelers(myself included) do not have good wood working skills necessary to build more elaborate bench work or even open style bench work at the very beginning. With the ablity to build even a 4x8 that is lighter weight than your more old school plywood top design, this style of layout is hear to stay for beginners and seasoned modelers alike. In my very small room for my layout, a 4x8 just fits with 3 of its sides agaisnt the walls and only the one long side open to the operator. A shelf type around the wall with continoius running is difficult due to 2 doors right near each other opening into the room. Both doors would require a large curved removable section to access the room and I have not found a solution that I can manage to build on my own. So a 4x8 that will sport a removable hatch one area so I can access the rear corners should a derailment happen. For now there is no scenery, so I just lean over the layout while standing on a stool. Most of the track plans I try are from the various books put out by Atlas and Kalmbach. There are just so many nice plans for the 4x8 table that you can spend hours trying different ones. Many have no need to deal with flex track and trying to lay it straight or in a pleasing curve without kinks. Most older plans are designed for the Atlas "snap track" and many have been modernized for Kato Unitrak and other brands that now have the roadbed built in. I prefer old fashioned "snap track" and cork road bed(once the plan has been finalized), then ballest the old fashioned way. Although the new Unitrack really does look nice, if a bit expensive. Mike the Aspie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Lonnie Utah I did enough research thst i knew the limitations going in. My decision was made by other factors. Mainly because I did have a kid and the ability to walk around the layout was critical to us.
There is nothing wrong with that.
I wonder though, how many out there do not do the research to see what other options exist.
I am not really into the whole running a train in a circle thing. It took me 3 layouts to figure that out (maybe 4).
The current layout that I am building in my garage is a hybrid modular/sectional layout. Trains cannot run in a circle on this layout because one end is physically disconnected from the other. It is designed so that I can take out and store sections so that winter vehicle storage can be accomplished along with vehicle maintenance. It uses club standard modular sections and takes up most of the garage. But it is serving a purpose. Learning.
All I know is I have tried for years to build a 4x8 and everytime I saw something I liked by the time I got supplies together there was another layout I liked better.
I live in an apartment now and like most dwellers I can't bore hole in the walls. So my dining room is the proud home of a 10x10 shelf railroad that I have Frankenstiened myself from parts of track plans that I like.
It will never be another Gorre and Daphetid but I have the track down and this weekend I tart wiring.
Farthest I have ever made....
Lonnie Utah And as a newbie in this hobby I'll add this. Many model railroaders make many of us that have a 4x8 feel almost ashamed, embarrassed or inferior because of that choice. I did enough research thst i knew the limitations going in. My decision was made by other factors. Mainly because I did have a kid and the ability to walk around the layout was critical to us.
And as a newbie in this hobby I'll add this. Many model railroaders make many of us that have a 4x8 feel almost ashamed, embarrassed or inferior because of that choice. I did enough research thst i knew the limitations going in. My decision was made by other factors. Mainly because I did have a kid and the ability to walk around the layout was critical to us.
Most people in the hobby started with a 4x8 - I know I did. It's an easy way to get into the hobby without spending too much money. It's also the most popular size for MR's project railroads over the years. And yes a lot of people are very down on the 4x8. But this is a hobby, go with what works for you.
Good luck
Paul
SeeYou190 "Gorilla" brand duct tape is best thing since Champagne in a Can!
Anen. I wouldn't be without it in our Airstream. I drove across Wyoming with a busted window on it once upon a time. Gorilla tape, a piece of cardboard and a tarp did the trick. Held up just fine at 70 mph.
BMMECNYCOne of the things I have noticed when speaking with co-workers about my hobby is that those who are not model railroaders now all said kind of the same thing: "I had a 4x8 (or some such circular layout) when I was a kid, but I got bored with running a train around in circles after (some time period of time)".
I think that's the critical point. You either give up at this point or you move into model railroading. You may still run trains in a circle, but now with the perspective of a railfan.
BMMECNYC Geared Steam I'm not sure why some people are so concerned about noobs starting with a 4 × 8 as long as they are doing something besides posting hogwash in forums. Im not really. The point of this thread was to generate discussion on if the 4x8 was still the best choice to recommend for someone starting out in the hobby. One of the things I have noticed when speaking with co-workers about my hobby is that those who are not model railroaders now all said kind of the same thing: "I had a 4x8 (or some such circular layout) when I was a kid, but I got bored with running a train around in circles after (some time period of time)".
Geared Steam I'm not sure why some people are so concerned about noobs starting with a 4 × 8 as long as they are doing something besides posting hogwash in forums.
Im not really. The point of this thread was to generate discussion on if the 4x8 was still the best choice to recommend for someone starting out in the hobby.
One of the things I have noticed when speaking with co-workers about my hobby is that those who are not model railroaders now all said kind of the same thing:
"I had a 4x8 (or some such circular layout) when I was a kid, but I got bored with running a train around in circles after (some time period of time)".
The never got beyond playing with trains and so did not become model railroaders.
Model railroading has many facets beyond running trains in a circle or even operating trains. The range from learning about railroads to planning and building layouts with all the skills learned and tallents developed in doing so.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
I suppose it depends - I would get bored with the trains running around in circles allt he time. But others would get bored making slow speed switching moves for a couple of hours.
If you are bored of roundy-round running, cut the plywood in half the long way and make an 2x16 linear or 8x10 L shaped switching layout. Or even a 2x8 and save the other half for something else. Any of those has room for enough switching variety to keep you occupied for hours. And all of thoose take up less floor space than the 4x8 island. Just no option for continuous running. (in HO - in 2 feet of width you can cram in 10" or 11" radius N track)
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
BMMECNYCI admit that the additional carpentry skills required may be a turn off.
There is a good chance that people without the tools to do the job may know someone willing to help out.
As far as carpentry skills go, I have always been happy to have people come over and help them cut up their stuff in my shop and put it together if it can still be transported afterward. I expect them to help and learn as they go. I have invited people over only to have them watch me do everything. The helpful hints part of the day was cut short. You know the part about how to screw things together without splitting the wood and such.
The ones that are eager to learn and do their own work can come back anytime and have done so, even without me here as the wife can let them in. It is silly to go buy tools if you are not interested in that kind of thing, so they can use mine anytime. (at my house)
Some people have bought me Rapido coaches in appreciation or gift certificates at PWRS which is just down the road from me. While I am happy to help out and do not expect a gift in return, it makes me appreciate the fact that they were grateful for my help. The ones that just sat back and watched me work on their stuff are the ones that I barely got a thank you out of.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BMMECNYC"I had a 4x8 (or some such circular layout) when I was a kid, but I got bored with running a train around in circles after (some time period of time)".
This makes me wonder if there is some hybrid alternative that would be a alternate recommendation than the standard 4x8.
Im thinking layouts like the Rice Harbor Project railroad and the Virginian project railroad or some variation on those themes might be a good alternate suggestion to those looking to build a layout that does more than a circle. I admit that the additional carpentry skills required may be a turn off.
Geared SteamI'm not sure why some people are so concerned about noobs starting with a 4 × 8 as long as they are doing something besides posting hogwash in forums.
GraniteRailroader wrote the following post yesterday: vsmith I'm planning a 4x8, mostly because I plan to store it on a rope lift to keep it stored up and out of the way in the rafters. Using folding legs, 4x8 gives a nice size area without compromising alot of space. What scale is this plan designed for? As configured I see problems with grades, and very difficult transitions both for spiral easements and grade easements...assuming HO.
Have fun with your trains
That´s hitting the nail on its head!
Amen!
Those that are stuck with smaller cars can always buy a 4 × 8 trailer from Harbor Freight to haul the sacred 48" × 96"
Fortunately I live in a land of large vehicles and acreage, so hauling a pallet of plywood isn't a problem, and every man can handle a circular saw by the time they are 10, I can't relate to " I can't cut wood" excuse for the abundant number of 4 × 8 plywood plans (thank goodness)
The "sacred sheet"some liked to say is a stepping stone to a future layout, it's not the "be all, end all" that some make it out to be. It's a starter layout to learn the hobby, develop skills so when you are ready to upsize, you know what you want and how you want it.
I'm not sure why some people are so concerned about noobs starting with a 4 × 8 as long as they are doing something besides posting hogwash in forums.
There is no reason to have to pay someone to design a layout for you with a hole in the middle to stand in, most builders in this hobby are already creative enough to design a layout on their own. Much ado about nothing (as usual) and the attempts by layout designers to make this harder than it really is forum fodder.
Go play with trains and stop worrying what others are doing wrong (in your opinion).
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
GraniteRailroaderWhat scale is this plan designed for? As configured I see problems with grades, and very difficult transitions both for spiral easements and grade easements...assuming HO.
The potential construction, performance, and reliability challenges with this plan were discussed in an earlier thread.http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/264625.aspx
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vsmithI'm planning a 4x8, mostly because I plan to store it on a rope lift to keep it stored up and out of the way in the rafters. Using folding legs, 4x8 gives a nice size area without compromising alot of space.
What scale is this plan designed for?
As configured I see problems with grades, and very difficult transitions both for spiral easements and grade easements...assuming HO.
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BRAKIEWhile using duct tape to hold wire is unorthodox and bizarre it worked
.
"Gorilla" brand duct tape is best thing since Champagne in a Can!
I use it for anything that needs to be held in place. Wonderful stuff! I can see how it would have been great for your portable layout. Sounds good to me.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190I had to hurdle over neither one of those. My "door N scale layout" was all wired with light guage wire running across the table top and obscured by scenery.
Kevin,When I built a 36" x 80" HCD N Scale layout I used Atlas selectors for block control and simply drilled holes where needed and dropped the wire then used "all purpose tape" (aka duct tape) to hold the wires and that worked quite well for around ten years including train show displays.
While using duct tape to hold wire is unorthodox and bizarre it worked.
'
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
cuyamaThe challenge of dropping feeders through a hollow-core door (which isn't really hollow -- there is filler) is about the only issue. And the same scenery and grade issues as any flat layout substrate.
The other big problem, which I did not need to deal with, might be under the table switch machines. I used Atlas switched with the switch motor attached above the table. Completely "newbie" style!
I had to hurdle over neither one of those. My "door N scale layout" was all wired with light guage wire running across the table top and obscured by scenery. My father, who was a civil engineer, thought that leaving the underside perfectly smooth was a goal worth pursuing.
riogrande5761 cuyama riogrande5761 But the answer is build a 4x8 frame and have a 4x8 sheet cut in half long ways an then re-assemble on to the frame as 4x8 again. Right. So the proverbial 4x8 sheet of plywood for a table top layout based on a bazillion plans might be diverted "accidentally" to something better for those who can't fit a 4x8 sheet into their car to get it home. Isn't that serindipity?
cuyama riogrande5761 But the answer is build a 4x8 frame and have a 4x8 sheet cut in half long ways an then re-assemble on to the frame as 4x8 again.
riogrande5761 But the answer is build a 4x8 frame and have a 4x8 sheet cut in half long ways an then re-assemble on to the frame as 4x8 again.
Right. So the proverbial 4x8 sheet of plywood for a table top layout based on a bazillion plans might be diverted "accidentally" to something better for those who can't fit a 4x8 sheet into their car to get it home. Isn't that serindipity?
Doesn't fit in the car? No problem. Just get a friend to ride along so both of you can use a hand to hold it to the roof of the car.
Just this last weekend I met a car with people doing exactly that. It was in town and looked like maybe a half (4x4) sheet rather than a full sheet. Still it looked like a tricky move to me.
Jeff
cuyama BRAKIE A 4' x 6' works but, one needs to think small like #4 switches and 40' cars and maybe a small steam engine or 4 axle diesel. The curves will be 22" or better use 18" curves to gain room. The HO radius issues are imposed by the width, so they are the same if it's 4X6, 4X8, or 4X12.
BRAKIE A 4' x 6' works but, one needs to think small like #4 switches and 40' cars and maybe a small steam engine or 4 axle diesel. The curves will be 22" or better use 18" curves to gain room.
The HO radius issues are imposed by the width, so they are the same if it's 4X6, 4X8, or 4X12.
That is correct of course the only 4x6' display layout I ever seen used 18" so the builder could gain some room.
It was very impressive for its size seeing the fella used 36' cars and a Roundhouse 2-6-0. IIRC it took either third or fourth place in the display layout contest.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
SeeYou190If space was available though, I cannot imagine anyone cutting 2 feet off of a 4 by 8 other than just to show it can be done.
There are some spaces where a 4X8 won't fit but a 4X6 will ... of course, something else altogether might work even better as an HO layout.