That may be the case, Brunton, but at this point I buy very little any more, and, with the exception of MicroMark none of the vendors I buy from are on the NMRA list.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
Brunton After my post about offsetting the cost of membership through purchases from suppliers offering NMRA discounts, some glass-half-empty folks came out of the woodwork. Just goes to show - no matter what you do, some folks will invariably find fault or offense as a result.
After my post about offsetting the cost of membership through purchases from suppliers offering NMRA discounts, some glass-half-empty folks came out of the woodwork.
Just goes to show - no matter what you do, some folks will invariably find fault or offense as a result.
IRONROOSTERGood to know about OPSIG - I was thinking of joining, but now I won't. Paul
I believe they only post the info of those who wish to be posted... I will double check and get back to you.
I see someone already answered you.
rrebellNo, facts are facts. Now there may be discounts around but the example was with one company. Maybe it was just one bad example.
As I said, some people will be unhappy no matter what.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
IRONROOSTERHow much ad revenue does the magazine generate?
That is on the IRS Form-990. Second to last page. Its income, it has to be in there. Im not posting it here as it isnt anyone else's business besides members.
IRONROOSTERThe point being the information was shared with the members.
Request the information from the people who can actually give it to you. The CFO's email is available to all members.
IRONROOSTER BMMECNYC Dues increases are explained accurately in the budget, Okay, why were the 1972 dues $5 ($30.29 adjusted for inflation) and why are they $75 now. (Which BTW is considerably higher than other similar organizations, such as TCA, TTOS, NASG)
TCA doesnt have a print magazine from what I could tell, so their $50 membership is $3 more expensive than the NMRA non-magazine membership.
The other two are $30 and $35. One only prints 6 magazines a year, which are physically half the length (NASG, which is available to anyone online after 1 year.) The content appears comparable to the NMRA magazine. I would pay that much for that magazine a year, if I was interested in modeling Maine Narrowguage in Sn2. Maybe someday
The other prints 4 magazines a year (no idea about content).
As far as the difference between CPI adjusted dollars and what dues are currently, the magazine is now a separate fee from membership, because dues alone do not cover it, and also not everyone wants the magazine. Compared to MR, the magazine is a comparable value for its reduced length and content. I believe that $28 would be a fair price to request for the NMRA magazine if it were published as a separate entity from the organization (it operates at a loss or break even).
The difference between cost of magazine and cost of dues without magazine is $28. Which brings the delta to $17ish dollars between 1972 and now. The EHB states the rules which allow dues increases. You would have to go back over the years and figure out what the dues were each year and how each increase was justified at the time.
Did you take issue with anything in the budget up until they stopped publishing it? What year did they stop publishing the budget?
As far as contracts, well you can figure out how much total was spent on the magazine. I think thats about it though.
Life fund, you would have to ask directly.
rrebell Brunton After my post about offsetting the cost of membership through purchases from suppliers offering NMRA discounts, some glass-half-empty folks came out of the woodwork. Just goes to show - no matter what you do, some folks will invariably find fault or offense as a result. No, facts are facts. Now there may be discounts around but the example was with one company. Maybe it was just one bad example.
No, facts are facts. Now there may be discounts around but the example was with one company. Maybe it was just one bad example.
The MSRP for the 250W resistance soldering set is $568 from the manufacturer. The Micromark Price was $499 for the set. Discounted price $424. They do get you on the replacement electrodes, which were only a few cents under the MSRP with the discounts. $23 in shipping for the whole order (not the only thing in the shopping cart) = $447. Same set total cost was between $448 and $637 by google search (with shipping). And I would have to pay separate shipping costs for the additional items Iwould buy that were not a one stop shop.
Micromark's price for Walthers Proto GP35 is better than Walthers' price before the discount, and you get a 15% discount at Micromark. I checked around. Micromark with NMRA discount was the best price for this locomotive.
It does not appear that the discount is applicable to closeout items.
About 15 years ago there was a monthly NMRA "meet" in a nearby public library. One month they advertised an open house, open to the public, with models and several small layouts on display. So I went. Well, all the members of the group wanted to do was talk to each other. If you asked a question, you got a short, curt answer, and then they went back to talking among themselves. One guy even walked away when asked a question without saying anything. These guys had less social skills than the rocks in my garden. I've belonged to clubs where there were a couple of people like that, but the whole group? Geez.
I've belonged to several hobby organizations over the years, the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) - somewhat of an old-boys network; the National Association of Rocketry (NAR) - a small but very effective group.
When I had an amateur radio license I would constantly get material from the American Radio Relay League (ARRL) but even then they were getting a reputation as a self-serving old-boys network echo chamber, so I never joined.
By far the best organization I belonged to, completely in a different league from hobby organizations, was the EAA (Experimantal Aircraft Association). They put on the big annual fly-in and airshow at Oshkosh WI. Everyone I met was so friendly, and...enthusiastic. What a difference from the NMRA group I met, or hobby clubs in general.
ed_nAbout 15 years ago there was a monthly NMRA "meet" in a nearby public library. One month they advertised an open house, open to the public, with models and several small layouts on display. So I went. Well, all the members of the group wanted to do was talk to each other. If you asked a question, you got a short, curt answer, and then they went back to talking among themselves. One guy even walked away when asked a question without saying anything. These guys had less social skills than the rocks in my garden. I've belonged to clubs where there were a couple of people like that, but the whole group? Geez.
Well what do you expect from a bunch of guys whose idea of fun is to hang out by themselves down in the basement? This hobby attracts a lot of introverts.
The more social ones go to NMRA meets.
Paul
IRONROOSTER ed_n About 15 years ago there was a monthly NMRA "meet" in a nearby public library. One month they advertised an open house, open to the public, with models and several small layouts on display. So I went. Well, all the members of the group wanted to do was talk to each other. If you asked a question, you got a short, curt answer, and then they went back to talking among themselves. One guy even walked away when asked a question without saying anything. These guys had less social skills than the rocks in my garden. I've belonged to clubs where there were a couple of people like that, but the whole group? Geez. Well what do you expect from a bunch of guys whose idea of fun is to hang out by themselves down in the basement? This hobby attracts a lot of introverts. The more social ones go to NMRA meets. Paul
ed_n About 15 years ago there was a monthly NMRA "meet" in a nearby public library. One month they advertised an open house, open to the public, with models and several small layouts on display. So I went. Well, all the members of the group wanted to do was talk to each other. If you asked a question, you got a short, curt answer, and then they went back to talking among themselves. One guy even walked away when asked a question without saying anything. These guys had less social skills than the rocks in my garden. I've belonged to clubs where there were a couple of people like that, but the whole group? Geez.
Very true, just look at me. I belonged to a club and to a round robin in the past, I have "social skills", but I don't have much interest in using them anymore :)
For many introverts social skills with strangers are "work", not "fun". Their self esteem is not heavily invested in the opinions of, or contact with, great numbers of "outsiders". They are generally happy with small circles of friends.
It is clear from this whole conversation that the extroverts "expect" more from the NMRA - they need to step up and provide more, then they will get more. It is a volunteer organization......
I don't need/want any more than I already receive from the NMRA........
Sheldon
Brunton rrebell No, facts are facts. Now there may be discounts around but the example was with one company. Maybe it was just one bad example. The example I gave was a link to the current published list of vendors. Nothing bad about that. As I said, some people will be unhappy no matter what.
rrebell No, facts are facts. Now there may be discounts around but the example was with one company. Maybe it was just one bad example.
The example I gave was a link to the current published list of vendors. Nothing bad about that.
There is also another page listing the discount program, which includes a number of hobby shops, plus a large number of museums and attractions. Some attractions give a decent discount. Other museums offer NMRA members free admission.
But you are right. Some people are never happy.
betamaxThere is also another page listing the discount program, which includes a number of hobby shops, plus a large number of museums and attractions. Some attractions give a decent discount. Other museums offer NMRA members free admission.
Brunton betamax There is also another page listing the discount program, which includes a number of hobby shops, plus a large number of museums and attractions. Some attractions give a decent discount. Other museums offer NMRA members free admission. I didn't see that one. Can you post a link, please?
betamax There is also another page listing the discount program, which includes a number of hobby shops, plus a large number of museums and attractions. Some attractions give a decent discount. Other museums offer NMRA members free admission.
I didn't see that one. Can you post a link, please?
It's under the Benefits, Member Discount Program. Right below the partnership program where various manufacturers/suppliers are listed.
BMMECNYC rrebell Brunton After my post about offsetting the cost of membership through purchases from suppliers offering NMRA discounts, some glass-half-empty folks came out of the woodwork. Just goes to show - no matter what you do, some folks will invariably find fault or offense as a result. No, facts are facts. Now there may be discounts around but the example was with one company. Maybe it was just one bad example. The MSRP for the 250W resistance soldering set is $568 from the manufacturer. The Micromark Price was $499 for the set. Discounted price $424. They do get you on the replacement electrodes, which were only a few cents under the MSRP with the discounts. $23 in shipping for the whole order (not the only thing in the shopping cart) = $447. Same set total cost was between $448 and $637 by google search (with shipping). And I would have to pay separate shipping costs for the additional items Iwould buy that were not a one stop shop. Micromark's price for Walthers Proto GP35 is better than Walthers' price before the discount, and you get a 15% discount at Micromark. I checked around. Micromark with NMRA discount was the best price for this locomotive. It does not appear that the discount is applicable to closeout items.
rrebell BMMECNYC rrebell Brunton After my post about offsetting the cost of membership through purchases from suppliers offering NMRA discounts, some glass-half-empty folks came out of the woodwork. Just goes to show - no matter what you do, some folks will invariably find fault or offense as a result. No, facts are facts. Now there may be discounts around but the example was with one company. Maybe it was just one bad example. The MSRP for the 250W resistance soldering set is $568 from the manufacturer. The Micromark Price was $499 for the set. Discounted price $424. They do get you on the replacement electrodes, which were only a few cents under the MSRP with the discounts. $23 in shipping for the whole order (not the only thing in the shopping cart) = $447. Same set total cost was between $448 and $637 by google search (with shipping). And I would have to pay separate shipping costs for the additional items Iwould buy that were not a one stop shop. Micromark's price for Walthers Proto GP35 is better than Walthers' price before the discount, and you get a 15% discount at Micromark. I checked around. Micromark with NMRA discount was the best price for this locomotive. It does not appear that the discount is applicable to closeout items. Hey I want to be fair, once discounted the Walthers price was best (without going to far into looking for a better price), however the American Beauty could be had for as low as $278 and lots of places for $362, new, same model etc.
Hey I want to be fair, once discounted the Walthers price was best (without going to far into looking for a better price), however the American Beauty could be had for as low as $278 and lots of places for $362, new, same model etc.
100W or 250W? Which probe?
The 250W full set with everything you need, the lowest price I could find was Micromark after the discount. Where did you find a 250W complete resistance soldering set (base station, tweezer probe, footswitch) for $278 to 362? All the lower prices I found in the range you stated were base station only (no probe or footswitch).
250w on e-bay, brand new, couple companys. Also saw same unit on Amazon for over $800.
rrebell 250w on e-bay, brand new, couple companys. Also saw same unit on Amazon for over $800.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMERICAN-BEAUTY-105A12-Resistance-Soldering-Power-Unit-250w-Var/381942699914?epid=1301672634&hash=item58ed8f178a:g:fOsAAOSwiHpaD2DL
$362 base station only.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Beauty-105A12-Resistance-Soldering-Power-Unit-220V-w-foot-pedal/222904483668?epid=1301672634&hash=item33e6247f54:g:548AAOSwdzVXnr67
220V and it only has a footswitch. $268
All of the 250W listings for the equivalent to what I purchased from Micromark were over $500.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMERICAN-BEAUTY-10504-Tweezer-Style-Soldering-System-250w-1-8/332189025396?epid=1301666655&hash=item4d58024474:g:C7UAAOSw8b1aDuJc
https://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Beauty-10502-Resistance-Soldering-Station-Light-Capacity-Tweezer-Style/391333145790?epid=17011372181&hash=item5b1d45ecbe:g:jL0AAOSwbdpWXdeS
Only the last one is comparable to what MicroMark offers. The ones I found for the price you stated are not stand alone useable products.
Kerry
HOmainlineWhat's the point? That's clear from the question we posed. If you can elucidate any logic to that "plan" we're all ears. And if you've been reading the related president's columns over the past few years, you'd see that there isn't any.
Thanks for the heads up, Maxman. I thought I could respond directly to Atlantic Central's March 24 reply to my post of the same day as is possible on some other sites. I see now that's not the case. My original is below, followed by the relevant portion of A.C.'s reply. -------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're an NMRA member and read the recent eBulletin about its plans to increase the number of members, you may be interested in reading the letter below that was passed along by some friends, who had written to the association and received that letter in reply. They were as puzzled and as stunned by the "plan" as was I - but not surprised, given the amount and frequency of baseless talk in the magazine about getting more members, an issue in which apparently no one on the NMRA board has any interest or understanding. I find that truly amazing for a membership organization that depends on member volunteers and whose major income stream is their dollars.
The "plan" in its entirety reads: "Membership Retention is the best and most economical way to grow our numbers."
The reply:
"Hi ____________, Thanks for your note. No – I am not going to devote a column on this topic but let me explain the math and our reasoning. We recruit members very successfully each year. But each year we lose more members than we recruit and that loss results in a net loss. Some of those losses are due to death but much of the loss is due to first-time members not being contacted or made to feel welcome. Thus, were we able to continue recruiting on an annual basis as we have historically but retain 50% of our new members, we would grow. It is far easier to keep an existing member then to attract a new one. But it does require work at the local level and that is always been our Achilles heel. We are therefore encouraging local folks you come up with innovative programs with this new idea. But the most effective program is mentoring. Identifying new members and making them feel welcome. Easier said than done. I hope this answers your question and I hope this dispels any skepticism that retaining members somehow grows our numbers. By itself, of course not. But added to our annual successful recruiting efforts, it certainly would. Thanks for your question"
One step forward, four steps backward. Economical? Yep, you don't have to spend a penny to do nothing. If you can flesh out any logic or reason in that explanation, then please fill us in. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From A.C.:
So what is your point? And what is the big deal?
HOmainlineI thought I could respond directly to Atlantic Central's March 24 reply to my post of the same day as is possible on some other sites.
What you need to do if you want to reply directly to a particular post is to click the reply button at the bottom of the post in question.
Then highlight the section of the post you are interested in addressing, and then click the "add quote to your post" button. That will add the relevant portion and who said it.
For the NMRA haters:
At least they're trying, folks. Rather than just sit and baselessly criticize, why not offer up some suggestions?
If you're gonna say "this makes no sense," offer up some ideas that will help it make sense, or offer a whole 'nuther alternative.
It's easy to sit on your tail and offer up useless remarks like "That'll never work!" It's not as easy to step up and try to help out, is it?
Brunton For the NMRA haters: At least they're trying, folks. Rather than just sit and baselessly criticize, why not offer up some suggestions? If you're gonna say "this makes no sense," offer up some ideas that will help it make sense, or offer a whole 'nuther alternative. It's easy to sit on your tail and offer up useless remarks like "That'll never work!" It's not as easy to step up and try to help out, is it?
Mark, I have made that point several times in this thread. It is a volunteer organization. Things only happen if people step up to help. And generally, those who do the work, make the choices.
My personal situation does not afford me the time, but it does afford me the dues money, so I pay it happily to support the efforts of those able to devote the time.
But respect for the efforts of others, or any sense of obligation to those in the past who brought us to where we are, seems to be in short supply these days.
HOmainline Thanks for the heads up, Maxman. I thought I could respond directly to Atlantic Central's March 24 reply to my post of the same day as is possible on some other sites. I see now that's not the case. My original is below, followed by the relevant portion of A.C.'s reply. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you're an NMRA member and read the recent eBulletin about its plans to increase the number of members, you may be interested in reading the letter below that was passed along by some friends, who had written to the association and received that letter in reply. They were as puzzled and as stunned by the "plan" as was I - but not surprised, given the amount and frequency of baseless talk in the magazine about getting more members, an issue in which apparently no one on the NMRA board has any interest or understanding. I find that truly amazing for a membership organization that depends on member volunteers and whose major income stream is their dollars. The "plan" in its entirety reads: "Membership Retention is the best and most economical way to grow our numbers." The reply: "Hi ____________, Thanks for your note. No – I am not going to devote a column on this topic but let me explain the math and our reasoning. We recruit members very successfully each year. But each year we lose more members than we recruit and that loss results in a net loss. Some of those losses are due to death but much of the loss is due to first-time members not being contacted or made to feel welcome. Thus, were we able to continue recruiting on an annual basis as we have historically but retain 50% of our new members, we would grow. It is far easier to keep an existing member then to attract a new one. But it does require work at the local level and that is always been our Achilles heel. We are therefore encouraging local folks you come up with innovative programs with this new idea. But the most effective program is mentoring. Identifying new members and making them feel welcome. Easier said than done. I hope this answers your question and I hope this dispels any skepticism that retaining members somehow grows our numbers. By itself, of course not. But added to our annual successful recruiting efforts, it certainly would. Thanks for your question" One step forward, four steps backward. Economical? Yep, you don't have to spend a penny to do nothing. If you can flesh out any logic or reason in that explanation, then please fill us in. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From A.C.: So what is your point? And what is the big deal?
Kerry,
The NMRA is an all volunteer organization, with limited resources. Example - You join the NMRA, you happen to be in a region where NMRA regional activity is low or non existant, poorly run, lacks volunteers, lacks funding, etc.
Your only contact to this orgianization on line. With today's privacy concerns it is difficult for some stranger at NMRA headquarters to just give out your name and number to some random member who may live near you and be willing to participate with you in the hobby.
In the old days, there was a member directory with peoples names, phone numbers and addresses. Another group I belong to still does that........
So maybe you are lucker, maybe you join and you are in a region with better local events. It will still be up to you to read the local newletter when it is emailed or snail mailed to you, and for you to show up. When you show up, you need to be willing to talk to people, introduce yourself, find those who are interested in making you feel welcome and who will show you the ropes.....
It is beyond unreasonable to expect a welcoming committee to tackle you at the door, drill you for information to find out you are new, and give you some grand tour. It is equally unrealistic to expect that every member in attendance wants to meet and greet new people. Some are there for their own reasons, making new friends may not be on their agenda.
OR, should we make that a membership requirement? Only happy, cheery, outgoing people who want to make a 100 new friends and be an ambasador for the hobby can attend an NMRA function so that no new people feel slighted?
That is not an excuse for rude,but the reality is, one persons rude is another persons privacy - even in public.
And they have a point, what is the point of getting new people to sign up if they just quit in a year? Nearly any organization has some sort of "aquisition cost", often not covered by one years membership...........so keeping members is likely more important than getting members....
So, if you want the NMRA to be better, make it better. Help run a meet, volunteer for any job they need done, get on a committee, help revise data sheets, go to the event and offer to be the newby meet and greet person, OR just pay your dues so others have some resources to work with, but otherwise, stop complaining.........
I've been in the NMRA for 50 years now, I don't go to those things, they don't interest me much, they are never convient in location or time for me. That does not stop me from getting up off a few dollars to support the work they do. For the amount of money I have spent on this hobby in 50 years, I would be imbarassed to not belong to the NMRA.
But maybe I was rasied different in a different time..........
HOmainlineIf you're an NMRA member and read the recent eBulletin about its plans to increase the number of members, you may be interested in reading the letter below that was passed along by some friends, who had written to the association and received that letter in reply.
I would be interested in what your friend or friends wrote.
Some divisions are actually really good at retention. The small amount offered with the retention program is probably because it is a trial program, and they dont want to dump a lot of money into things that do not work, or worse. Probably going to take a look at which divisions use the program to grow, then develop recommendations to other divisions on how to grow their membership (dont know if they will change how much National is going to pitch in or not).
Given the number of divisons, the number seems reasonable. Some regions have quite a few divisons.
Ive been racking my brain on how to best utilize the program within my own divison. Got ideas? Share em.
Every job Ive had I have been told "If you find a problem or something that could be improved, you should have a solution when you tell your boss about the problem."
maxmanWhat you need to do if you want to reply directly to a particular post is to click the reply button at the bottom of the post in question. Then highlight the section of the post you are interested in addressing, and then click the "add quote to your post" button. That will add the relevant portion and who said it.
Maxman,
Thanks! Works a bit differnetly than other sites.
BruntonFor the NMRA haters: At least they're trying, folks. Rather than just sit and baselessly criticize, why not offer up some suggestions? If you're gonna say "this makes no sense," offer up some ideas that will help it make sense, or offer a whole 'nuther alternative. It's easy to sit on your tail and offer up useless remarks like "That'll never work!" It's not as easy to step up and try to help out, is it?
Brunton,
So you're familiar then with what we and others have done or attempted in the past? We're not NMRA haters at all and recognize the value the organization has brought to the hobby over the decades and continues to bring today.
What's your take on this "plan" and the membership growth-related content in the president's columns over the past few years?
BMMECNYCI would be interested in what your friend or friends wrote.
BMMECNYC,
Our friends asked if there would be a followup in an upcoming issue of the NMRA magazine detailing how this plan would work from a numbers perspective. And, we take it that you also read the NMRA's reply?
I'm familiar with what some have tried. Not all, I'm sure. Some have essentially suggested disbanding the organization and restarting it in their own image. Pretty much a non-starter.
Not everyone who criticises is a hater, but those who do nothing BUT criticize every idea that comes alongs may as well be. "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."
My take on the membership plan - Probably not going to be all that effective. But I haven't worked up any suggestions for improvments, so I don't criticise it. If it's even marginally effective, it's an improvement.
Again - they're trying. If it's lame, help it not be. If it's an abject failure, suggest soemthing else you think won't be. Try to help, but within the organization. There are some really good people in there, who will welcome you and your ideas. There are some who are just the opposite, and they poison far too many against the organization. Try to ignore the latter without forming an opinion on the whole organization based on them.
Brunton I'm familiar with what some have tried. Not all, I'm sure. Some have essentially suggested disbanding the organization and restarting it in their own image. Pretty much a non-starter. Not everyone who criticises is a hater, but those who do nothing BUT criticize every idea that comes alongs may as well be. "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..." My take on the membership plan - Probably not going to be all that effective. But I haven't worked up any suggestions for improvments, so I don't criticise it. If it's even marginally effective, it's an improvement. Again - they're trying. If it's lame, help it not be. If it's an abject failure, suggest soemthing else you think won't be. Try to help, but within the organization. There are some really good people in there, who will welcome you and your ideas. There are some who are just the opposite, and they poison far too many against the organization. Try to ignore the latter without forming an opinion on the whole organization based on them.
I’m a new member (started this post) so I don’t know if this has been tried already. Many companies have “Exit interviews” with employees who leave. These help them understand not only why they leave but in the case of leaving because of moving or retirement, why they stayed.
Perhaps some kind of contact to those 50% who leave each year may yield a better understanding of why and in turn lead to an effective retention program.
For me, I was thinking of leaving almost immediately after I joined when my wife asked what I got for the $75 fee. Another magazine? as it turned out the fee has almost disappeared due to savings through the partnership program
So next year I’m in again. If I do leave at some point, I would think NMRA would want to understand why, as opposed to just accepting the fact that I’m gone.
Just my two cents.
Gary
I am not a member, nor am I aware of any members. That being said the reason I have not joined the nmra is a simple lack of interest on my part. I really do not think that will change either and there is probably a few more like me.