I already own John Armstrong's Track Planning book, and after reading it I grasp most of the concepts, but it's not giving me that "a-ha" moment. I'm struggling with practical implementations of what he is writing about. I'll start another thread with questions, in the Layout section though.
Right now, I do not even know whether I should be selling whatever H0 equipment I got and going into N, or not.
YouTube Channel
Website
richhotrain It seems to me that everyone who is replying is merely trying to offer sincere advice based upon their own experience with various scales.
Rich,The reason I know what a 3' section of track holds that's the way I measure the needed track so,to have headroom for 7 cars and (say) a GP38-2 I need at least 6'.
OTOH if I need headroom for a SW1500 and 4 cars a piece of flex track and a 9" straight will give me that room. I call that my no frills measurements which is goof proof since I measure it with models I will be using.. Such "real time" measurements is needed when one builds small HO ISLs.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Dannyboy6 An around the room layout depicting a local short line might be the ticket; have fun!
An around the room layout depicting a local short line might be the ticket; have fun!
And the upside modeling a short line is its less expensive since one or two locomotives is needed and for long term rotation 80-100 cars at most since you're dealing with a short train.
I have a suggestion. If you don't have a copy of Track Planning For Realistic Operation by Armstrong, get it.
https://www.amazon.com/Track-Planning-Realistic-Operation-Railroader/dp/0890242275
or you can buy it direct from our hosts.
Purchase a subscription to Model Railroader, if you don't already have one. That gives you access to the hundreds, if not thousands of trackplans published in Model Railroader and other Kalmbach publications. Download them all or just those that interest you.
Study them. There is a wealth of information in there if you just look at them after diving into Track Planning For Realistic Operation. You will gain a good insight into what track planners and accomplished modellers consider good layouts.
Then decide on scale and start planning your layout. You will be in a better position to make the right decisions.
CG
TrainzLuvrN scale is like the other side of the Force, tempting and luring me toward it. More track, longer trains, more scenery...yet is it the right choice (for me)?
That is a question only the modeler can answer. My love for ISL really leans toward N Scale since a 1' x 12' can yield a excellent ISL with lots of room. OTOH a HO ISL on the same board yields three background industries and a transload track without overcrowding-that's my current ISL design.
Ironically, I already own some H0 equipment because I dived into it on an impulse half a year ago as I thought the stars have finally aligned. Like someone said elsewhere, they were emotional purchases. Today, I have doubts H0 was a right choice, even though I (thought I) prefer the H0 size and detail.
I did contemplate a "chainsaw" layout, although the size of my space will not be changing in the future, so might as well build to fit then. But what?
N scale is like the other side of the Force, tempting and luring me towards it. More track, longer trains, more scenery...yet is it the right choice (for me)?
I really appreciate all the feedback everyone had posted so far, and I feel guilty that I seem to have hijacked the thread from the OP. My hope is that those in the future seeking answer to their dilemma will find our continuing deliberations useful.
As for me, I am my worst enemy...
I don't see kaffeeklatsch, virtually gab-filled or not, as a bad thing. The idea is to bat around ideas, no matter how crazy they might seem. The good stuff eventually rises to the top, and the rest falls by the wayside. I'm sure there was a time when a bunch of cavemen sat around and one said, "I think I'm gonna eat one of those oysters." No idea what the others thought, but I'm sure it involved lots of guffawing.
Pontiff Third Class Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
richhotrainGeez, well then, who were you directing those comments at? It seems like a harsh indictment of everyone who has replied to this thread. As I read back through all of the replies, I don't see anyone pontificating (defined as expressing one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic).
Simple -- the many people (not all here) encouraging him to worry about insignificant minutia.
Edit: As he said himself:
TrainzLuvrAnd I mean, you are absolutely right in what you wrote. Especially for newcomers like myself, I feel I have been (mis)directed by opinions I read, or viewed on YouTube, that totally distorted my perspective.
To me, pontificating implies speaking from a place of self-importance and hearsay rather than experience. Perhaps I chose that one word poorly.
"Indictment of everyone on this thread"? Not at all ... but apparently there will always be those who take offense.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
TrainzLuvrIn another LHS, someone told me that if I go H0, I'll realize pretty soon that I've ran out of space. My space is 23' x 12', is that really not much for H0?
Many fine layouts have been built in that space or less in HO or N. If you want modern era (which generally means longer cars and locos) and long trains, N scale would allow more to fit, of course. An HO layout in that space could work; you’ll just be limited to fewer and relatively shorter elements (yards, industries, passing sidings, etc.)
... and you could always start with a smaller layout (in either scale) that you view as a "chainsaw" layout, a term Dave Clemens coined to describe something that you don't expect to be the ultimate layout, but is instead a test bed to try things out and grow your skills. And then later that can be disassembled after you start the next layout elsewhere in the space. Structures, benchwork framing, turnouts, even flextrack can be re-used.
I hope that you won’t let the “noise” keep you from getting started and having fun. Many of the things that long-time forum denizens and self-proclaimed gurus rave on about are often unimportant to modelers’ actual enjoyment.
cuyama I think that it's helpful to recognize that many, many people who talk about HO vs. N (and the hobby in general) on forums have themselves never completed a layout in any scale. Many of today's active N scale modelers built one or more HO scale model railroads first before switching, so they know the strengths and weaknesses of each. The inverse is not true. HO scale is fine. N scale is fine. I personally think folks should make their decisions for themsleves and not be swayed by the gabbers in the virtual kaffeeklatsch.
I think that it's helpful to recognize that many, many people who talk about HO vs. N (and the hobby in general) on forums have themselves never completed a layout in any scale. Many of today's active N scale modelers built one or more HO scale model railroads first before switching, so they know the strengths and weaknesses of each. The inverse is not true.
HO scale is fine. N scale is fine. I personally think folks should make their decisions for themsleves and not be swayed by the gabbers in the virtual kaffeeklatsch.
cuyama TrainzLuvr Why, thank you, for putting me in my place...
TrainzLuvr Why, thank you, for putting me in my place...
"Gabbers in the virtual kaffeeklatsch"? Byron, the gentleman is "seeking advice on on modern Ho equipment and layouts". It seems to me that everyone who is replying is merely trying to offer sincere advice based upon their own experience with various scales.
Rich.
Alton Junction
TrainzLuvrInstead of focusing on running trains and enjoying the hobby in general, I'm obsessing whether to use Code 100 or Code 83 rail and what manufacturer at that; or whether rail spikes are too big and not prototypical.
One should consider what rail size,track and switches to use as well as era but,never to the point of being obsess.
To tell you true I never worry about that because either code 83 or code 100 works quite well for me. Spikes? I favor large spikes because they hold the track better.
In another LHS, someone told me that if I go H0, I'll realize pretty soon that I've ran out of space. My space is 23' x 12', is that really not much for H0?
The original idea was to freestyle our layout and not be fixed in the transition era, but also have some modern equipment. Now, I'm not too sure about anything...
If I was doing modern, I would stick to N scale. Your space is small for the size of modern equipment to get the right look and feel. Also alot of the details that make old equipment stand out (like what I model in the late 1930's) is missing or dose not proturd as much on modern stuff, doors don't stick out as much, roofwalks are gone for the most part etc.
Water Level Route Is part of the problem of the information age. Don't get discouraged and don't give up. Are you planning on showing your layout to a bunch of nit-pickers with no manners? I didn't think so. I assure you that it isn't going to ruin your hobby experience if for example you choose code 100 rail over code 83. Instead of worrying about which type others like best (something that there is virtually never anything close to a consensus) get what looks good to you, is reasonably available, and fits your budget. You may be amazed how enjoyable code 100 rail and "not accurately proportioned" locomotives can be. Perfection can come later if at all.
Is part of the problem of the information age. Don't get discouraged and don't give up. Are you planning on showing your layout to a bunch of nit-pickers with no manners? I didn't think so. I assure you that it isn't going to ruin your hobby experience if for example you choose code 100 rail over code 83. Instead of worrying about which type others like best (something that there is virtually never anything close to a consensus) get what looks good to you, is reasonably available, and fits your budget. You may be amazed how enjoyable code 100 rail and "not accurately proportioned" locomotives can be. Perfection can come later if at all.
Mike
cuyamaThat certainly wasn't directed at you, sorry it came across that way. I was talking about people pontificating to newcomers like yourself. [So maybe I was putting myself in my place .... ?]
[So maybe I was putting myself in my place .... ?]
Thanks.
And I mean, you are absolutely right in what you wrote. Especially for newcomers like myself, I feel I have been (mis)directed by opinions I read, or viewed on YouTube, that totally distorted my perspective.
Instead of focusing on running trains and enjoying the hobby in general, I'm obsessing whether to use Code 100 or Code 83 rail and what manufacturer at that; or whether rail spikes are too big and not prototypical.
Being overwhelmed, part of me just wants to go do something else and not bother at all.
TrainzLuvrWhy, thank you, for putting me in my place...
That certainly wasn't directed at you, sorry it came across that way. I was talking about people pontificating to newcomers like yourself.
cuyamaI think that it's helpful to recognize that many, many people who talk about HO vs. N (and the hobby in general) on forums have themselves never completed a layout in any scale. Many of today's active N scale modelers built one or more HO scale model railroads first before switching, so they know the strengths and weaknesses of each. The inverse is not true. HO scale is fine. N scale is fine. I personally think folks should make their decisions for themsleves and not be swayed by the gabbers in the virtual kaffeeklatsch.
Why, thank you, for putting me in my place...
TrainzLuvrAnd, it's not the first store I was told that the hobby is in a decline and suffering.
Brick-and-mortar hobby stores are suffering. On-line retailers are doing pretty well.
The hobby has allegedly been in a death spiral since slot cars took off in the 1960s. 50 years later, it looks like it must be a pretty shallow dive. If one can buy what they need from a variety of sources to complete a layout today, what does it matter?
TrainzLuvrBesides we have seen manufacturers scaling down their productions to limited and one-time runs
Which results in a much wider variety of more-accurate products and roadnames than "back in the good old days." Plus, nearly everything that's ever been made will eventually come up for sale on eBay and other resale sites.
It's never been a worse time to be in brick-and-mortar model railroading retail. It's never been a better time to be in the model railroading hobby.
TrainzLuvrNot to be defending Horribly 0versized against the iNsignficant, the Oversized and the Scratch scales, but I was told at the LHS that H0 occupies about 70% of the hobby, while all the other scales are the remaining 30%.
I think those figures are for scale model railroading. I think there are a lot of folks into 3 rail O gauge. At least in terms of stuff, there seems to be almost as much as HO. And there seems to be a lot of interest in sceniced 3 rail O gauge layouts.
Paul
BRAKIEMany of those teens enjoy Train Sim far more then model trains simply because you are a virtual engineer facing the problems of a real engineer even running a local is possible all for $24.95-59.00 depending on your package. The hobby can't match that experience in any scale. I know that as fact since I have Train Sim 2017.
I have one of the earlier train sims, but I didn't find that as much fun as running the model trains. It's a different kind of experience.
I also have a Lionel sim that simulates running Lionel trains on floor layouts with puzzle switching tasks. I found that to be a lot of fun.
I guess nothing is left to imagination anymore.
TrainzLuvrAnd, it's not the first store I was told that the hobby is in a decline and suffering. The influx of new modellers is not what it used to be, and this gentleman pointed out that teenagers (and pre-teens), spend more time on their mobile phones than on anything else, including trains.
Many of those teens enjoy Train Sim far more then model trains simply because you are a virtual engineer facing the problems of a real engineer even running a local is possible all for $24.95-59.00 depending on your package. The hobby can't match that experience in any scale. I know that as fact since I have Train Sim 2017.
Not to be defending Horribly 0versized against the iNsignficant, the Oversized and the Scratch scales, but I was told at the LHS that H0 occupies about 70% of the hobby, while all the other scales are the remaining 30%.
To be honest, I did not find that misleading. Matter a fact, a sales gentleman I spoke to was a N modeller. He also told me that if he had to start over, would go N again, because he likes long trains and, has space constraints at home. Yet, he would've been quite happy to sell me whatever scale I wanted, as they carry both H0 and N.
But looking at this warehouse size store, it had 2-3 shelves of N and isles of H0, so he didn't really need to tell me anything. Big stores like this one don't care that much about scale detail, long trains and 89' autoracks. They carry what people are looking for and what makes the sales.
And, it's not the first store I was told that the hobby is in a decline and suffering. The influx of new modellers is not what it used to be, and this gentleman pointed out that teenagers (and pre-teens), spend more time on their mobile phones than on anything else, including trains.
Besides we have seen manufacturers scaling down their productions to limited and one-time runs, and some of them going out of business. Yes, we have more small manufacturers coming up today, which is good, but they are also falling in line with the (shrinking) market demands.
H0, N...it's a tough decision that I'm also faced with myself. Maybe should just go (back to) virtual and stare at the computer screen. But that neither creates social interactions with other people nor build friendships and many various skills one acquires in this hobby.
Youbalso need to account for curves especially if you plan to build a modern layout. Longer Rolling stock requires longer curves with greater spacing ( Don't ask me how I know this I found out the hard way though it does make for some interesting rules on the SIW.).
Joe Staten Island West
BRAKIE Think before you leap..What these Horribly Oversize modelers isn't telling you I will.
Think before you leap..What these Horribly Oversize modelers isn't telling you I will.
When I was a kid, I had two American Flyer S-scale trains that ran in circles, and later ovals. Not much else except the locomotives and a few freight cars.
As an adult, I started an HO scale layout back in 2004. I am fortunate to have a large basement because prototypical model railroading takes up a lot of space - - an awful lot of space.
I have thought about converting from HO scale to N scale but the cost is high and I am intimidated by the smaller scale and the lack of available product to replicate by HO scale layout.
Now, some will tell you that HO scale does not require a lot of space. That may be true if you are content with short wheelbase locomotives and simple operations. But, if you like passenger trains, long freight trains, stations and yards and lots of scenery, be it mountains or urban settings, you need a lot of space in HO scale.
I run a lot of passenger trains on a double main line. I need 2 feet of space just for a crossover between the two mainlines. I need 6 feet of space to take the trains around the curves at the ends of the layout. I need 6 square feet (i.e., 6' x6') for a turntable and 9-stall roundhouse.
Trust me, you need lots of space to build a prototype HO scale layout and, even then, it doesn't exactly look prototypical after taking selective compression into account.
Rich
Modern freight cars range from 50-89 feet all of a sudden a 3' section of track holds a GP38-2 and three cars or a GP38-2 and two 89' cars or three SD80MACs. That nice 18" radius N Scale curve now jumps to at least 32"-24" will work but,those long locomotives and cars doesn't look right IMHO. Buildings triple in size etc.
My personal experience. Had I thought long and hard about selling my N Scale because my vision became blurred-this was due to a new medication not my eye sight going South-I would have sold my HO instead.
Why you may wonder?
A 12' board doesn't yield much of a Horribly Oversize switching layout.
All of that beautiful detail on cars and locomotives can not be seen under normal layout operation viewing.
I'm quite happy working in HO. If I were to change, I think I'd go to scale O. Layout options do get constricted in that scale, but I do recall a 4 x 8 O scale layout in Model Railroader once upon a time. And I wouldn't end up with so many cars and locos.
Ed
If highly detailed locomotives (and rolling stock) is what you want, then O scale is the way to go - especially where eye sight is the problem.
If the layout is the most imporatant, then stay with N scale. Elevate it near eyelevel for good viewing.
If you need a good compromise between these, then S scale is the way to go.
Good luck