riogrande5761 mlehman Late spring shows are probably ones least likely to draw a crowd, particularly with good weather. Many folks shift to outdoor activities with the change in seasons. And with spring coming earlier (doesn't matter what's causing it, that's a fact), this only aggravates the issue. Which also means judging the most recent shows in the last few weeks isn't really representative of anything long term, particularly when it comes to the "health of the hobby" question that some seem to spend more time on than what's on their workbench. I'm gonna have to agree with Mike here. The weather had been really nice in the days leading up to the show and sure, it rained in the morning but otherwise it was a nice weekend. I think people were in a spring frame of mind and thats bad for the show. I did go on Saturday with my wife and I did notice the Timonum show was lightly attended. My wife goes with me and knows the show well too, and noticed a number of vendors who used to come have been absent since HZ bowed out and new managers took over the show. She reminded me that we spoke with a dealer who usually comes from Ohio a to some of the Timonium shows; we saw him at the Greenberg show last August and he mentioned that a number of vendors werent happy with the new management and walked away. Kims trains, which used to be just inside the big layout room has been gone, I haven't seen Tom's trains in a couple years nor a few others. It's a shame because I think the show has gone down as a result of some of the old regular vendors leaving.
mlehman Late spring shows are probably ones least likely to draw a crowd, particularly with good weather. Many folks shift to outdoor activities with the change in seasons. And with spring coming earlier (doesn't matter what's causing it, that's a fact), this only aggravates the issue. Which also means judging the most recent shows in the last few weeks isn't really representative of anything long term, particularly when it comes to the "health of the hobby" question that some seem to spend more time on than what's on their workbench.
Late spring shows are probably ones least likely to draw a crowd, particularly with good weather. Many folks shift to outdoor activities with the change in seasons. And with spring coming earlier (doesn't matter what's causing it, that's a fact), this only aggravates the issue.
Which also means judging the most recent shows in the last few weeks isn't really representative of anything long term, particularly when it comes to the "health of the hobby" question that some seem to spend more time on than what's on their workbench.
I'm gonna have to agree with Mike here. The weather had been really nice in the days leading up to the show and sure, it rained in the morning but otherwise it was a nice weekend. I think people were in a spring frame of mind and thats bad for the show.
I did go on Saturday with my wife and I did notice the Timonum show was lightly attended. My wife goes with me and knows the show well too, and noticed a number of vendors who used to come have been absent since HZ bowed out and new managers took over the show.
She reminded me that we spoke with a dealer who usually comes from Ohio a to some of the Timonium shows; we saw him at the Greenberg show last August and he mentioned that a number of vendors werent happy with the new management and walked away. Kims trains, which used to be just inside the big layout room has been gone, I haven't seen Tom's trains in a couple years nor a few others. It's a shame because I think the show has gone down as a result of some of the old regular vendors leaving.
Maybe the weather is a factor?
I can't say because for me, model railroading is a year round activity not driven or controlled by the season or the weather. And to be honest, I'm not someone with a lot of other outdoor hobbies that would compete with trains for my time.
Outdoors is mostly just work for me - work I now do most of with a checkbook.
I enjoyed the light crowd, makes it easier to manage the 4 year old.....
Truth is I hate crowds, a fact that has kept me away from the shows unless I really thought I could find a few things on my want list.
Sheldon
First off, thanks for all the thoughtful replies.
To be clear, I did say that my question is in no way a comment on the "hobby dieing". Personally, I think the hobby is very healthy. It is changing, but it is plenty healthy.
In my opinion the success or failure of train shows has little or nothing to do with the health/success of the hobby in general. The question was are trains shows healthy?
It appears from the responses the the results are mixed, and may be very regionally varied and driven by regional factors.
I don't know how big the four buildings are at Amherst, but the Maryland State Fair Cow Palace is 3-1/2 acres under roof. The GSMTS once filled it with no room to spare, now days it is about 70%.
It could be that the train show thing is just a little played out in this region. At this location alone there are at least 6 every year. The GSMTS puts on 5, and Greenburg comes at least once a year. That is one every 60 days, more or less.......
I will say that for me personally, I have never used train shows as a primary means to purchase my modeling needs. I see the train shows mainly as a source for bargin NOS, and if something else I want is the right price, I will pick it up.
I am primarily a local shop buyer, and an internet buyer.
I don't buy much on Ebay either, again except to search for specific NOS items.
I buy virtually nothing that has "already been played with" - that's just how I am.
So, for those of you who enjoy the train shows, I'm glad they are alive and well in other areas.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
csxns BRAKIE yellow box Atlas/Roco Alco S4 isn't worth $85.00 especially since you can buy the newest upgraded release for around $99.00 on li Any yellow box Atlas Roco.
BRAKIE yellow box Atlas/Roco Alco S4 isn't worth $85.00 especially since you can buy the newest upgraded release for around $99.00 on li
Any yellow box Atlas Roco.
Well,I like my three Atlas/Roco S4s that I bought at two difference shows for $30.00,25.00 and 35.00. My three Atlas/Kato RS1s are nice too.
Hopefully this summer I will get 'em painted for my new all ALCO powered terminal road-Cincinnati Belt Line..Era 1966/67.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRALbut human activity is not causing climate change
Russell
BRAKIEyellow box Atlas/Roco Alco S4 isn't worth $85.00 especially since you can buy the newest upgraded release for around $99.00 on li
richhotraindon't believe in climate change either
The hobby died years ago, this is all a dream.
The number of shows is growing here in the mid south, and I, like Larry, see the same old guys asking too much.
I don't use train shows to decide on the health of the hobby, but what do I know?
I'll just keep purchasing these new products that are being released, by manufactures that obviously aren't making it..........
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Train shows in the Indianapolis area are doing just fine. There are regular local shows that take place in the surrounding suburbs during the fall/winter season. They seem to have more activity than in the past, at least when I have gone.
The larger shows such as GATS and WGH aren't as attractive, IMO. Parking fees and no real price advantage over what can be found at a LHS or OnLine keep me away for the most part. Went to WGH this winter. High prices were abundant.
And the time of year has a lot to do with it. Train shows stop about mid march. This time of year they would struggle....as they do in September.
- Douglas
Sheldon, I attended the one held yesterday mid-island. Haven't been in maybe six years. It was busier than any of the others, and there were more vendors. Even a well-stocked Hornby table and one with Piko products. In fact, I got bumped and jostled, unlike other years. First time ever I purchased something, and scored a couple of NIB Spectrum heavyweights in Pennsy livery.
My buddy and I went to the Vancouver train show last November. It was quite busy as well. It was my first time in a large show, so I don't know how to compare it, but I would say it was probably average. Busy, lots of families streaming into the venue when we got there mid-day. Inside, it was dense and one couldn't move quickly.
I guess it depends on what else might be competing with the show any one year. Sometimes a major RV spring show, or a boat show, or something else can draw people away from the trains.
I know the one I went to Saturday, "Choo Choo Bob's" train show in Eagan Minnesota, had virtually no one there. Compared to last year, attendance was only 10-20% of what it was. Problem here In the Twin Cities is everything's all bunched together - this was the fourth of six straight weekends with flea markets / train shows within an hour drive time or less of each other.
(IIRC, the order is: Century College RR flea market, Randolph MN "Railroad Days", Woodbury high school RR flea market, Choo Choo Bob's show/sale, St.Paul Union Depot "Laker Rail", then finally May 7 the Twin City Model RR Museum's big flea market at the state fairgrounds.)
Which also means judging the most recent shows in the last few weeks isn't really representative of anything long term, particularly when it comes to the "health of the hobby" question that some seem to spend more time on than what's on their workbench. Maybe that's why they're not having as much fun as they used to?
That said, our local show is doing OK in its second year back after a several year hiatus. The mall owner wanted to go in a different direction (not sure what he was thinking...), but he kept getting inquiries about when the next train show was going to be. Imagine that (I know, hard to do for people who are wedded to the doom-and-gloom forecast for whatever reason)? So by public acclaim, the train show has been back.
I know some of the organizers and asked one who was operating here the other night. The vendors seem really positive about returns on their visit. The crowd seemed a bit smaller to me, but I could only attend briefly one day due to other commitments. Maybe the crowd is thinner elsewhere, too, but those who do attend are spending more indovidually? Perhaps mere headcounts are probably not indicative of the success of the vendors is one takeaway message that people should consider before again predicting the hobbypocalypse?
Yet, it's also the case, for those with only a casual interest in the hobby, having something in front of them and people around to interact with is probably more inspiring than hours spent hanging out online. This person-to-person aspect is a crucial feature of shows.
In any case, locally the main threat to the show continuing is the ageing of the promoters. They have to set up tables and chairs and do other prep work, then break it all down, in the course of a weekend. Figuring out a way to get them more help may be important to the future success of the show, but I think that's doable.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I think you're right about the date, Paul. Plus, unless I missed it being mentioned, having the show four times a year really dilutes the attendance. No one show is "special" like the annual shows (Trainfest, Amherst, etc.).
Another thing that could be affecting some shows is how limited production runs are now. Years back some larger companies would close out merchandise to dealers in their area. When they brought the items to train shows it would be like a feeding frenzy. Now you very rarely see those kinds of deals. Of course, many dealers were unhappy with that practice, so it just depends on which side of the table you were on.
Lastly, I know some of the Greenberg shows in Western PA had less dealers because the promoters changed the dates and they conflicted with shows many dealers were already committed to.
So between the graying of the hobby, folks passing away, and the economy, you have all sorts of other issues affecting show attendance too.
Jim
At a mid-March swap meet in Portland OR, organized by a local club:
There was a one-year change in venue this year, due to issues at the armory used for the past several years. Wet weather, which usually helps attendance.
Attendance has been declining slightly over the past two or three years. All the tables were sold but a couple of no-shows accounted for maybe 8 empty tables out of 125+.
Family groups -- mom, dad & kids -- were noticeably absent. This meet does not have operating layouts or clinics because the organizers have been able to sell out table spaces. The age spread of shoppers was tilted toward 50+, but there were significant numbers of buyers in their 20s, 30s and 40.
Fewer hobby stores took part, and fewer traveling commercial dealers. Most participants were from no more than 200 miles away, most within 100.
Dealers reported OK sales, nothing exceptional. The best-moving items were older items that aren't always economical to sell via the internet.
For some reason, fewer dealers tried to pack up early and leave before the 3 pm closing. Often this can be a problem.
I was at the Timonium show on Sunday.
I agree that the show is not what it was before the great Recession. That along with high gas costs really hurt the show. And it has never recovered (even with gas down a little). But there are always fewer dealers/attendees for spring than the winter or fall show.
One thing I think that hurt the spring show is having it at the end of April. It used to be the end of March / 1st weekend April (and the winter show was in January). I think many people are into the hobby in the winter and not in late spring or summer.
But all said. I enjoyed the show. There were some bargains. I picked up a "new" old S-Helper 3 car set for less than half of what MTH sells the cars for now. My son who (at age 42) is now into Lionel trains found a couple of things.
Enjoy
Paul
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain BRAKIE And yet their is no proof the hobby is dying since we do not have the figures and all the new companies.thousands of new products etc over the last ten years or so means nothing to the grand scheme. Larry, something tells me that you don't believe in climate change either. Rich The climate is changing, just like the hobby, but human activity is not causing climate change........
richhotrain BRAKIE And yet their is no proof the hobby is dying since we do not have the figures and all the new companies.thousands of new products etc over the last ten years or so means nothing to the grand scheme. Larry, something tells me that you don't believe in climate change either. Rich
BRAKIE And yet their is no proof the hobby is dying since we do not have the figures and all the new companies.thousands of new products etc over the last ten years or so means nothing to the grand scheme.
And yet their is no proof the hobby is dying since we do not have the figures and all the new companies.thousands of new products etc over the last ten years or so means nothing to the grand scheme.
Larry, something tells me that you don't believe in climate change either.
Rich
The climate is changing, just like the hobby, but human activity is not causing climate change........
kasskaboose I'm glad I didn't make the drive.
Me too. More stuff for the rest of us
Yes, the show did seem lightly attended. But I sort of judge these things by what I'm able to find rather than the number of attendees.
My one big purchase was a BLMA SF beer car for $29. I think list for these is about $40, so not too shabby.
On the other hand, from one vendor I picked up an Athearn 65' mill gon, a Walthers 65' mill gon kit, a Walthers 54' GSC flat kit, and three P2K gon kits. Total for all that was $30.
I also picked up several P2K beam loads for $2 each.
So I think I did okay.
Sheldon--
I was at Timonium on Sunday, too, with a friend who normally works in a train store on Saturday, so it was the only day we could attend.
Howard Zane sold his rights to the show to others several shows ago, and perhaps their advertising is not or has not been quite as effective as when Howard and his cronies were running the show.
Also, Howard still had tables at the show and was offering some insanely good deals on selected HO brass models. For example, a 1977 PFM DRGW Class L-131 2-8-8-2 (this is the version with the backhead detail and the improved drive with can motor) with a decent custom paint job on it went for less than $800 (I have no idea what the final sale price was, but the listed price was only $795 and Howard was verbally discounting aggressively). I would have bought it myself, but didn't have the cash.
One dealer was offering 50% off MSRP on Bowser diesels. I don't know how he could possibly do that kind of discount...
Though there were indeed many deals to be had on HO plastic, the best deals at this particular show were on Howard's HO brass models. Simply stated, nobody can beat some of Howard's prices. Some of the models he has would be ideal for those who actually want to operate the models on a layout and get reliable performance, and for folks who want engines not available from BLI or others.
It seemed there was a huge amount of BLI merchandise available for sale, much more than I noticed in the past.
John Mock
I usually go to the Chantilly Va greenberg show. I think the attendance is slightly smaller. I would like to see the train shows add some variety to the show with different things for kids to do like have a hands on modeling project, different indoor rides, train table they could actually run, maybe a train race table where they could race each outher or like a drag race. I would also like to see more manufactures there with there latest product. It would be wonderful if the NMRA would set up a booth. Just recently I joined the N&W Historical society because they had a booth there that I could talk to a live person and discuss there society. I found out that I could obtain access to N&W info that would help me better my modeling. There is only so much electronics can do. At some point meeting and talking to a real person is very helpful.
Larry - WHAT you dont believe in UFOs ???? Havent you watched "Men in black" which explains a lot about what one sees in the USPS offices !
Like Mark B (above) I too went to the Titletown train show in Green Bay WI (both days since I had other reasons for being in the area). Attendance seemed good, somewhat better on Saturday which seems pretty typical for two day shows. I do think there were fewer vendors this year and some familiar ones were missing, such as Kalmbach. In at least one case (Don Manlick decals) I know the reason is due to the owner's death this last year. In other cases it might be the cost of each table (which I was told was $80) might have gotten too high.
Unlike Trainfest in Milwaukee, Titletown does not have manufacturers per se (a few "basement" manufacturers of trees or scenery materials to the contrary) and Titletown has a lot of swap meet style dealers in used stuff which Trainfest does not have. Apart from that it is the usual mix of display layouts, hobby shops, historical societies, and some guys (including groups, perhaps clubs) who seem to just buy a table to sell off their personal surplus but are not really swap meet dealers per se.
A few trends in the hobby were worth noting. The move to DCC has caused DC power packs and other electrical gear to be sold used, often at very attractive prices for stuff that just a few years ago was top-of-the-line. Similarly I think a lot of guys who have DCC have just decided to finally dump their DC locomotives rather than convert them themselves or pay to have someone else do it for them. Some pretty impressive bargains were out there as a result for BLue Box, Stewart, and earlier P2K diesels.
The move to digital magazine subscriptions and things like the MR all-access pass has caused boxes of free or nearly free MRs and RMCs to be available. This includes even recent issues from 2015. I was surprised by this.
For whatever reason there seemed to be alot of assembled structure kits available for sale at Titletown. They do not look plucked from a layout either: I think there are still lots of guys who like to build kits but their layouts are full to bursting with structures already. Conversely I saw fewer structure kits available for sale than in some prior years, particularly the older AHM, IHC, Revell, Model Power, Con-Cor and similar makes. I don't think I saw anyone selling Rix or Smalltown USA or Pikestuff or City Classics kits. In past years those were plentiful
I was looking for Jordan vehicle kits since it appears the firm is out of business with the recent death of its owner -- very few on sale.
I was on a rather unusual quest this year - I am putting together a two part clinic on weathering and need lots of cars that I can weather to demonstrate a point, and then hand out to the room to look at. It would be foolish to use really nice cars for that purpose, so those much maligned train-set quality cars, stacked on each other in tops of boxes, and often with busted trucks or couplers, are exactly what I was looking for. I did not have much competition looking through the "Tyco ward" I can tell you! And because the N scale types always complain my clinics are too HO oriented, I was also looking for N scale junk cars. Actually the quality of N scale junk seems higher than HO because all it takes for an N car to be sold for a buck or two is for it to have the old Rapido couplers.
I also bought some train set quality track in N (also very cheap) because the cars I pass around will be mounted/bolted on lengths of track fastened to wood bases. That way, with luck my sacrificial lamb cars might survive to be used again for future presentations of this clinic.
At least one technique in my clinic makes almost no sense to demonstrate on stage using HO (much less N) scale cars because it is so small a thing. Fortunately one vendor was selling Lionel O-27 car bodies for a buck. That should enable me to show what I do, then pass around HO and N cars where people can examine what I am talking about in closer and better detail.
All in all I was pleased with my two visits to the Titletown train show, but I might have felt differently if I was not shopping for that particular clinic. Next weekend is the train show in Davenport Iowa which is a long drive from Milwaukee WI but is usually worth it.
Dave Nelson
BRVRRMy grandson and I have attended most ot the train shows in NE Ohio over the past few years and noticed a decline in the number and quality of the vendors and a decided decline in attendance.
I favor these Ohio shows:Bucyrus,Berea,Dalton and Marion. The Berea and the Dalton shows is the biggest I attend.
My grandson and I have attended most ot the train shows in NE Ohio over the past few years and noticed a decline in the number and quality of the vendors and a decided decline in attendance.
It is really a shame as we counted on several of the better vendors for good stuff and bargain prices.
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
I like trains shows and though I don't do the same kind of shopping I used to do, I still enjoy just the fun of going and seeing what's there. Especially when there are excellent operating layouts.
Alvie
In Chantilly, VA, Greenburg used to visit 2x/year until Walmart took over part of the space. Greenburg seemed smaller than before, but you need to know fair market value for things. I did quite well at those shows and agree with many that knowing the market is invaluable.
Thanks for the update on Timonium. I'm glad I didn't make the drive. Vendors who are trying to sell old cars (read Tyco horn-hook couplers and its ilk) are wasting time.
Regardless of the show, going there is a great way for meeting people and exchanging ideas. No question that the internet causes this hobby to evolve. I like not only the ability to quickly purchase stuff online, but also have access to various HO swaps which often have a greater selection than Craigslist.
Have to agree internet shopping is killing both the shows and the LHS, and I plead guilty to accelarating this trend. Why wait for a show when I can price shop the online retailers and get what I need without waiting or driving to a show or LHS and praying they have what I want.
Having said that I still attand some of the Greenberg shows in Edison and have been to the National Train Show and the WGH shows. Each time we go though I find myself spending less and less because I already have all the stuff I need for the SIW ecept for a very specialized items like caboose industry ground throws which I ordered from Amazon) I like looking at the layouts My wife looks at the toys and knik-knacks, and talking with fellow hobbyists. It is a fun 2 hours. Attendance is very seasonal with the holiday show being crowded and the others less so.
Joe Staten Island West
richhotrain BRAKIE Why bother with a train show when your finger tips can do the shopping from the comfort of your home? But that same argument could be made during the heyday of the LHS. Why bother with a train show when you could do the shopping from the comfort of driving your car a few blocks to the local hobby shop? Rich
BRAKIE Why bother with a train show when your finger tips can do the shopping from the comfort of your home?
Why bother with a train show when your finger tips can do the shopping from the comfort of your home?
But that same argument could be made during the heyday of the LHS.
Why bother with a train show when you could do the shopping from the comfort of driving your car a few blocks to the local hobby shop?
Rich,In the heyday of LHS I seldom attended a train show and why bother when my friend Fred or Billy Bob at the shop has it in stock or could get it for me at discount?
Saturday morning was hobby shop day-that's before and after my railroading career interfered..
As for your second question nope,no more then I believe in Big Foot UFOs,Lake Erie's "Bessie" monster or the Loch Ness monster.
Alton Junction
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL It seems to me, that the last four or five of these things I have been to seem to show a gradual deline in attendance and activity. I'm not suggesting some "the hobby is dieing" scenerio, more like maybe train shows have run their course? I know that nobody likes to mention the fact that the hobby is dying so I won't either, but don't you think that dropping attendance in recent years is a sign of something other than nice weather outside? Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL It seems to me, that the last four or five of these things I have been to seem to show a gradual deline in attendance and activity. I'm not suggesting some "the hobby is dieing" scenerio, more like maybe train shows have run their course?
It seems to me, that the last four or five of these things I have been to seem to show a gradual deline in attendance and activity. I'm not suggesting some "the hobby is dieing" scenerio, more like maybe train shows have run their course?
I know that nobody likes to mention the fact that the hobby is dying so I won't either, but don't you think that dropping attendance in recent years is a sign of something other than nice weather outside?
The hobby is dying cry has been heard for as long as I care to remember and its still around. The pallbearers will be called if and when they are needed since there is no need to stand by a empty casket.
This isn't the 80/90s its the computer age where the widest selection of models is at our figure tips. There's no longer a need to drive miles to a show with fingers cross hoping we might find what we need after paying our way in,paying to park and maybe a light snack and still need to pay full or slightly less then MSRP..