The B&O also had a Small fleet of 2-10-0's that they inherited when they acquired the BR&P Ry in 1932. Some of these Decapods lasted until the late 1940's.
This is where the manufacturers are missing the boat - they need to work on expanding the market - not fighting over the known parts of it.
Blasphemy! Heresy! Burn the witch!
Or, you could just do what a Robin Williams line in "The Survivors" suggested doing. IIRC, it involved smoking something really nasty in the nether regions of Hades.
Here's a thought for the manufacturers. Capitalize on what you already have to create something that hasn't been done yet. Right now, Bachmann has a good percentage of the components to follow up their EM-1 with a T-3 4-8-2. They have a useable chassis in the USRA 4-8-2 and they've got a tender for it. http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?//july99/07-07-99/bxo5575.jpg
Yo, BLI, how's about a Santa Fe 3450 class 4-6-4 (after modernization)? The NYC Hudson chassis can be used as a starting point and the tender from your 3751 class 4-8-4 will work just fine. Even better, ATSF 3450 still exists out in Pomona, CA. Here's a pic of her in 1960 just prior to going into the fairgrounds: http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/4/9/5/5495.1318851405.jpg
BLI, you've already done the 3751 class 4-8-4 and the 3800 class 2-10-2. Why not take it one step farther? There are lots of Santa Fe fans out there. And spice it up a little bit. Here's a modernized 4-6-4 with the double sandboxes and the same tender you're using on the 3800 class. Have at it. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_sf3455.jpg
Oh, BTW, BLI and while we're at it, that brass hybrid NH I-4? There's a useable chassis for for a Santa Fe 3400 class 4-6-2. http://www.steamlocomotive.com/pacific/atsf3424-wessel.jpg
The I-4 chassis is also useable for a Erie K5a. In its final form, that's one of the prettiest Pacifics ever to grace the rails. Even better, it's kind of a neat engine for the free lancer, especially if you get the boiler proportions right. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3062565
Why invest in completely new tooling just to try to take Big Boy/Challenger/GS-4/N&W J (you get the idea) market share away from that spawn of Satan competitor of yours? Do something original. And I don't mean removing the Belpaire firebox off a Pennsy H9/H10 and trying to pass it off with a different tender and different road name. Fer crying out loud, at least offer it with a centered headlight.
Andre
I understand B&O Big Sixes (S-1 2-10-2's) were used on 17 Mile Grade, but I'm not sure whether they operated over the summit to Grafton. They were commonly used on the main lines from Brunswick, MD to Chicago; Cincinnati to Toledo; as well as Holloway, OH to Willard. They were particularly numerous on the main line between Cumberland and New Castle (via Pittsburgh). The last ones I saw were on a dead line in Willard in 1958 or 59.
Tom
dti406 Well, since we got a B&O EM-1, we might as well get the EL-3 2-8-8-0 which was used everywhere there was a grade on the B&O and they looked cool with that giant Vanderbilt Tender. Also on the B&O the S-1 and S-1A 2-10-2 of which there were 125 made and could be found on freight and mineral trains all over the B&O. Rick J
Well, since we got a B&O EM-1, we might as well get the EL-3 2-8-8-0 which was used everywhere there was a grade on the B&O and they looked cool with that giant Vanderbilt Tender.
Also on the B&O the S-1 and S-1A 2-10-2 of which there were 125 made and could be found on freight and mineral trains all over the B&O.
Rick J
Agreed, two great locos that it would be nice to see made - large or not.
There was however one place on the B&O where you never saw an S class loco - lines west from Cumberland to Grafton, over the Allegeny summit. They tried one once and rolled over on its side - the curves were too sharp.
Sheldon
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
And I think the manufacturers are smart, not stupid. I don't model the steam era anyway so I don't give a crap what they produce, but I'm unwilling to assume that they have no marketing data, or don't use what they have, or use it wrong.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
ATLANTIC CENTRALI am not making as much of a statement about size as I am about variety. We don't need six Big Boys to choose from, we need four or five of those companies to make something else - big or small. Sheldon
To expand on this thought - main point that keeps being missed - sure, some people just buy whatever is impressive and available to the limits of their descressionary spending.
But not everyone thinks that way.
The question is how much business is bing missed by not making more variety?
I think it is a lot.
I want some modern east coast 10 wheelers for my layout - the money that I would spend on them is not spent on something else just to spend it - in fact the $1,000 or so I would be willing to spend to add 4 or 6 such locos to my roster is money that will not be spent on this hobby if I never get them - because everything else my layout requires will be bought - with or without the ten wheelers.
DAVID FORTNEY With all the angst about the large engines the reason they are being made is that they sell. The smaller prototypes of which I have quite a few are really nice but you have to admit there is something about a big boy, Y6b, etc. running around your layout. I have almost every type of articulated engine ever made from the triplex to the big boy and Y6b. When the urge its me they come off the shelf and onto the track for a trip around the layout. Visitors love the big engines, they could care less about a 2-8-0. Big mainline engines are where it is at, climb on board.
With all the angst about the large engines the reason they are being made is that they sell. The smaller prototypes of which I have quite a few are really nice but you have to admit there is something about a big boy, Y6b, etc. running around your layout.
I have almost every type of articulated engine ever made from the triplex to the big boy and Y6b. When the urge its me they come off the shelf and onto the track for a trip around the layout. Visitors love the big engines, they could care less about a 2-8-0.
Big mainline engines are where it is at, climb on board.
As has already been stated - Big Boys pulling 12 cars on 22 inch radius look silly (actually they look silly on any curve less than about 40").
One 2-8-0 might not be very "impressive", but three of them pulling 40 cars is.
Hardly any train on my layout is pulled by one loco - except lessor passenger trains - 5 cars behind a single Pacific - double and triple heading is the rule here - even with the big power in most cases - but we pull long trains.
And, as has been stated - many of us have no interest in seeing a Big Boy and a Y6b on the same railroad - it never happened.
So to each their own.
There is no evidence that these choices on the part of the manufacturers are strickly market driven - why you ask?
Because for over two decades Bachmann has made every size of steam and diesel loco and clearly sold massive numbers of all of them. I suspect the total sales of Bachmann 2-8-0's are ten times BLI's total sales combined - why else would they still be making them 20 plus years later - with nearly continious availablity?
And while Bachmann has done their share of bigger power, much of it has been locos not offered by others - or they offered it first. If big power is all the rage, why did it take so long to get a B&O EM-1? Why no WM Challengers?
Largest company in this business? Likely Bachmann. There must be money in it, they are the only company in the hobby that has stock holders to answer to.
I am not making as much of a statement about size as I am about variety. We don't need six Big Boys to choose from, we need four or five of those companies to make something else - big or small.
andrechapelon Bayfield Transfer Railway Paul3 Sheldon,You're making a classic mistake in thinking just because something has more examples in real life will equal greater sales. People don't want the common item, they want the "best", "biggest", "fastest", etc. Paul A. Cutler III There ya go. The statistics presented earlier are just as accessible to manufacturers. The fact that there are more manufacturers making Big Boys than there are making Consolidations is no accident.Unlike some, I work under the assumption that the manufacturers actually know what they're doing. When I was getting my MBA way back in 1985-87 I learned a highly esoteric technical term for companies that guess wrong on what will sell."Out of business." PS Look at wargamers too... nobody buys Panzer IIIs, they all want dozens of Jagdtigers. Real companies create markets, not try to grab market share in relatively static markets by creating copycat products. I see that Rapido will be creating a Stirling Single for the UK OO market. Granted, it's under the auspices of Britain's National Railway Museum, but Rapido is entering unfamiliar territory. OTOH, I don't think Rapido has a single MBA on its payroll, otherwise we'd probably just see another Big Boy, Challenger, or Van Sweringen Berkshire and the NRM would have been turned down. http://rapidotrains.com/single.html Andre
Bayfield Transfer Railway Paul3 Sheldon,You're making a classic mistake in thinking just because something has more examples in real life will equal greater sales. People don't want the common item, they want the "best", "biggest", "fastest", etc. Paul A. Cutler III There ya go. The statistics presented earlier are just as accessible to manufacturers. The fact that there are more manufacturers making Big Boys than there are making Consolidations is no accident.Unlike some, I work under the assumption that the manufacturers actually know what they're doing. When I was getting my MBA way back in 1985-87 I learned a highly esoteric technical term for companies that guess wrong on what will sell."Out of business." PS Look at wargamers too... nobody buys Panzer IIIs, they all want dozens of Jagdtigers.
Paul3 Sheldon,You're making a classic mistake in thinking just because something has more examples in real life will equal greater sales. People don't want the common item, they want the "best", "biggest", "fastest", etc. Paul A. Cutler III
Sheldon,You're making a classic mistake in thinking just because something has more examples in real life will equal greater sales. People don't want the common item, they want the "best", "biggest", "fastest", etc.
Paul A. Cutler III
Real companies create markets, not try to grab market share in relatively static markets by creating copycat products. I see that Rapido will be creating a Stirling Single for the UK OO market. Granted, it's under the auspices of Britain's National Railway Museum, but Rapido is entering unfamiliar territory. OTOH, I don't think Rapido has a single MBA on its payroll, otherwise we'd probably just see another Big Boy, Challenger, or Van Sweringen Berkshire and the NRM would have been turned down.
http://rapidotrains.com/single.html
Again, well said Andre,
While Rapido has not made much that fits my modeling needs, I applaud them for consistantly making stuff not already available - and it seems to be working.
MBA - I've been successfully self employed most of my life without one........
Paul, I won't copy your reply as it's too wordy. When I say sold a bill of goods, I meant that that's what's been featured in the model press almost exclusively since the beginning.
Surely not every NH modeler is mesmerized by the Shore Line (David Popp comes to mind), nor every Santa Fe fan held in thrall to Cajon Pass. Not every SP fan faces Tehachapi when paying homage to The Sunset Route and I've even heard rumors of an NYC fan or two blowing off the blandishments of Mohawks and Niagaras for the simpler joys of the Adirondack Branch and its bevy of K-11's.
Oh well, gotta go. We're having dinner with a neighbor.
I would love to see a B&O Q4 mike. B&O fans would love it-heck, I'd want 3 or 4-and it's an attractive enough engine that it would appeal to many non-Bando modeler's as well.
As for diesels, how about an updated box cab such as MDC/Roundhouse used to make? Something that compact wold make a fine industrial engine as well as it's waterfront duties.
Andre,Well, yes, of course it depends on the RR and the mainline. Some railroads didn't have any "big steam power" at all, and many "mainlines" weren't "The mainline" because they had mulitple, lesser, routes (see: New Haven to Boston vs. New Haven to Springfield). The route itself could also affect things as steep grades meant bigger power. For example, the NH's freight-only Maybrook Line was home to 50 lumbering 2-10-2's that rarely roamed off the Maybrook because they were too slow to be mixed with too many passenger trains.
I have a NH March 1, 1922 Engine Assignment Book. On the "New Haven And New London Divisions" (covering the NH's "Shore Line" from New Haven, CT to just South of Providence, RI, plus branch lines to Worcester, MA, Northampton, MA, and Willimantic, CT), it lists 240 steam locos. Of these engines, the list includes:58 2-6-049 4-6-240 0-6-034 4-4-028 4-8-217 2-8-04 2-8-24 0-8-03 0-4-02 2-10-21 4-6-0According to some, a railfan watching the trains go by in 24 hours would see more 2-6-0's than anything else, and see 0-6-0's going by at a greater rate than 4-8-2's just because they had more on the roster in that Division. But when you look at the actual assignments:Only 3 of the 58 2-6-0's were assigned to Shore Line local freights (none of which overlapped).Only 3 of the 17 2-8-0's were on a Shore Line assignment (two through frieights, one local freight).Only 2 of the 34 4-4-0's were on Shore Line trains (one the Employee's Train).None of the 0-8-0's, 0-6-0's or 0-4-0's saw mainline service.The two 2-10-2's were on hump duty.The lone 4-6-0 was on a branchline.So of the above list of engines, only 8 "small" engines were on that part of the Shore Line. Compare that to the 36 "large" engines (well, for 1922, that would be anything with a trailing truck) that were all assigned to the same stretch of track during that time (the 47 other large engines were spare or on a branch).The result is that if one wants to accurately model the NH's "Shore Line" Division in 1922 between New Haven and Providence, one would need over 4 times the number of big steam power over little steam power, even tho' little steam power out numbered big steam power 2 to 1 in that entire Division.As for the choice of modeling the mainline, why is that a "bill of goods"? Who's selling it? The reality is that this is what people want. People have interest in the best, busiest, fastest, greatest, etc. Just look at sports: far more people follow MLB over the minor leagues. Why? Because MLB is the "best" league with the best players. Go to a minor league game and you can have just as much fun as going to an MLB park (maybe more so) for a heckuva lot less money, yet MLB teams are nationwide front page news and minor league teams are buried in the paper (if at all).I'm not saying that's the case for everyone, but the majority of people want to model the mainline of their favorite road because they want to, not because someone told them to.Paul A. Cutler III
AS an N scaler we have chance in the last year to receive good steam models on the Nscale offer.
Hope to see a Mercecedes of steam N&W class A in Nscale, a good running Y6b, and may be an C&O alleghenys.
Of course some very early articulated steam locomotives like a Z1....
Speaking of small power. The Pennsylvania railroad had over 3600 2-8-0 H1 thru H10 consoldiations. They were used for everything from yard engines to hauling passenger and freight trains. That was more engines of one type than most railroas had in total motive power.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Garry, I asked the question to the forum back on the first page but it may have gotten lost in the discussion. Perhaps you know the answer. Does ANY manufacturer currently produce a decent 2-6-2, even one that's generic? Bachmann has a VERY generic one in their basic line. They have improved all their drives down to even their least expensive stuff, but detail is still a little "train set" on that piece. Sheldon
I asked the question to the forum back on the first page but it may have gotten lost in the discussion. Perhaps you know the answer. Does ANY manufacturer currently produce a decent 2-6-2, even one that's generic?
I asked the question to the forum back on the first page but it may have gotten lost in the discussion. Perhaps you know the answer.
Does ANY manufacturer currently produce a decent 2-6-2, even one that's generic?
Bachmann has a VERY generic one in their basic line. They have improved all their drives down to even their least expensive stuff, but detail is still a little "train set" on that piece.
Yes. I think that is the only one being produced. I'm no expert, but I think that piece is really an 0-6-0 with pilot and trailing trucks added, and its leftover from Bachmann's cheaper train set "smoke" lineup...although the running gear may have been upgraded.
- Douglas
Doughless Heartland Division CB&Q My hobby is model railroading. It is not model locomotiving. I believe the locomotive should be a prototypical match for the train it hauls, in the location it operates, and in the era of the layout. For example, an 8 car freight train being hauled across the prairies in the 1920's would not have a Big Boy. A small steam locomotive such as a 2-6-2 would be mor appropriate. Garry, I asked the question to the forum back on the first page but it may have gotten lost in the discussion. Perhaps you know the answer. Does ANY manufacturer currently produce a decent 2-6-2, even one that's generic?
Heartland Division CB&Q My hobby is model railroading. It is not model locomotiving. I believe the locomotive should be a prototypical match for the train it hauls, in the location it operates, and in the era of the layout. For example, an 8 car freight train being hauled across the prairies in the 1920's would not have a Big Boy. A small steam locomotive such as a 2-6-2 would be mor appropriate.
My hobby is model railroading. It is not model locomotiving.
I believe the locomotive should be a prototypical match for the train it hauls, in the location it operates, and in the era of the layout.
For example, an 8 car freight train being hauled across the prairies in the 1920's would not have a Big Boy. A small steam locomotive such as a 2-6-2 would be mor appropriate.
Garry,
andrechapelon Paul3 If one wants to model their RR's mainline, then they are going to want to buy more of the bigger engines vs. the more common (in number) types Depends on the railroad and the mainline. For the most part, if you're a Southern fan, it's Mikes and Pacifics. If it's SP's Siskiyou line, the largest engines allowed were 2-10-2's and 4-8-2's. IIIRC, the largest engines used on the Santa Fe north of Bakersfield were 3700 class 4-8-2's and a couple of 3450 class 4-6-4's. These were not the large engines on the roster. Prior to the rapid dieselization of SP, it was rare to see a cab-forward in the San Joaquin/Sacramento valley and they didn't call SP's 2-6-0's "Valley" Mallets for nothing. The biggest bill of goods sold to the hobby is that the only modeling worth doing is mainline modeling (and really heavy duty main lines at that). Very few people have the space, time or money to do justice to that ludicrous ideal (else why so many complaints that Brand x 4-8-8-4 won't round an 18" radius curve). I once calculated that, to model SP's climb from San Luis Obispo to Santa Margarita would require 4-5 cab-forwards, at least 2 GS-4's, a couple of 4-8-2's, a like number of 2-10-2's, with 2 or 3 2-8-0's for good measure and that's just motive power. SP's Monterey Branch would only require a single 4-6-2 (for the Del Monte), 2 or 3 2-8-0's with a 4-6-0 and a 4-8-0 thrown in for variety. The Del Monte loaded up to 8 cars and could be reasonably downsized to 6 (vs 15-20 for the Daylight and Lark). During the 40's, there would have been up to 8 scheduled trains ( #'s 77/78 Del Monte and 3 local freights in each direction). Plenty of action for a 2 1/2 hour op session. Better yet, 12-15 cars behind a 2-8-0 looks better than 15-20 behind a 4-8-8-2. Andre
Paul3 If one wants to model their RR's mainline, then they are going to want to buy more of the bigger engines vs. the more common (in number) types
If one wants to model their RR's mainline, then they are going to want to buy more of the bigger engines vs. the more common (in number) types
Depends on the railroad and the mainline. For the most part, if you're a Southern fan, it's Mikes and Pacifics. If it's SP's Siskiyou line, the largest engines allowed were 2-10-2's and 4-8-2's. IIIRC, the largest engines used on the Santa Fe north of Bakersfield were 3700 class 4-8-2's and a couple of 3450 class 4-6-4's. These were not the large engines on the roster. Prior to the rapid dieselization of SP, it was rare to see a cab-forward in the San Joaquin/Sacramento valley and they didn't call SP's 2-6-0's "Valley" Mallets for nothing.
The biggest bill of goods sold to the hobby is that the only modeling worth doing is mainline modeling (and really heavy duty main lines at that). Very few people have the space, time or money to do justice to that ludicrous ideal (else why so many complaints that Brand x 4-8-8-4 won't round an 18" radius curve). I once calculated that, to model SP's climb from San Luis Obispo to Santa Margarita would require 4-5 cab-forwards, at least 2 GS-4's, a couple of 4-8-2's, a like number of 2-10-2's, with 2 or 3 2-8-0's for good measure and that's just motive power. SP's Monterey Branch would only require a single 4-6-2 (for the Del Monte), 2 or 3 2-8-0's with a 4-6-0 and a 4-8-0 thrown in for variety. The Del Monte loaded up to 8 cars and could be reasonably downsized to 6 (vs 15-20 for the Daylight and Lark). During the 40's, there would have been up to 8 scheduled trains ( #'s 77/78 Del Monte and 3 local freights in each direction). Plenty of action for a 2 1/2 hour op session. Better yet, 12-15 cars behind a 2-8-0 looks better than 15-20 behind a 4-8-8-2.
Andre, great reply.
I don't have time this morning for everything I would like to say in response to Paul, but you covered an important part of it.
I do choose to model the "heavy duty mainline" (and I have a 900 sq ft room to do it in), but in this region even that usually only meant double headed 2-8-2's or 2-8-0's, or 2-8-4's until you got to the mountains. Then the big power pulled the train over the mountain, then the Mikes took over again.
And I like long trains - the layout is designed for 35-45 car freights - typical of the 1950's in this region.
For me, it is all about the "medium sized power" that ruled the mainlines of the Mid Atlantic in the steam era.
The ATLANTIC CENTRAL has two 4-6-0's, nine 4-8-2's, eight 2-8-2's, eight 2-8-0's, three 4-6-2's, three 2-10-2's, and two 4-8-4's.
Big power does exist here, but it does not dominate the roster: two 2-8-8-2', two 2-6-6-4's, one 2-6-6-6 and four 2-6-6-2's.
Most of this is ATLANTIC CENTRAL power, some is B&O, C&O and WM.
As you can see, even the "big power" is mostly on the smaller side. Again, we are mostly about "medium power" here. Notice as the locos get bigger, the quantities get smaller - just like rosters on the prototype.
The one locomotive I would buy a six pack of - a modern east cost 10 wheeler like those on the B&O.
So based on my purchasing habits, 2-8-2's and 2-8-0's, and 4-8-2's outsell everything two/three to one - but what do I know.
Great thread.
How about some generic models with Elesco feedwater heaters (i.e. Pacifics, Mikes)
More offerings with Vanderbilt tenders.
A generic Camelback say a 2-8-0.
My $.02
Mark
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
Burlington Steam But it was funny because it's TRUE. Burlington Steam Think your all missing the point here......small while much more practical is boring to us manly man types .........big as Tim Allen said is MORE POWER!!!!!ARRRRRGH!!! gee guys that was strictly tongue in cheek!!
But it was funny because it's TRUE.
Burlington Steam Think your all missing the point here......small while much more practical is boring to us manly man types .........big as Tim Allen said is MORE POWER!!!!!ARRRRRGH!!!
Think your all missing the point here......small while much more practical is boring to us manly man types .........big as Tim Allen said is MORE POWER!!!!!ARRRRRGH!!!
gee guys that was strictly tongue in cheek!!
Here is a locomotive for 18" R HO track.
mlehman -E-C-Mills We need a new D&SL 2-6-6-0, a smaller articulated locomotive thats going to look ok on 24" (HO) curves. But not a logging locomotive. It was used on mountain mainline service for 3 decades. Yeah, good idea. And how about a Rio Grande C-48? I would really like to see Blackstone do that as their first standard gauge engine, which will happen eventually.
-E-C-Mills We need a new D&SL 2-6-6-0, a smaller articulated locomotive thats going to look ok on 24" (HO) curves. But not a logging locomotive. It was used on mountain mainline service for 3 decades.
Yeah, good idea. And how about a Rio Grande C-48? I would really like to see Blackstone do that as their first standard gauge engine, which will happen eventually.
Mike:
I'll take five. For a start. Sweetest little SG 2-8-0's I've ever seen!
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!