Need Help! New HO Lionel Challenger

[rexhea]

I received my new and beautiful Lionel Challenger yesterday from Internet Trains and have a few problems that I need help with. First, I need to say that I don't know very much about the workings of a steamer, but I am mechanically and electrically savy.

Run time has been about 1 hour.

1. ???
I have done all the things to the tender that was suggested in the tips at Tony's Train except one. It says to remove the pilot spring. Is this the pilot on the centipede or one on the loco?

2. ???
The front loco pilot and the front drivers will frequently derail in a 26" Radius curve. My Class A and others have no problems anywhere on the layout.

3. ???
After switching to reverse, the gearing sometimes seems to be locked up. You can feel the motor thumping and a tap on the loco will get it going.

4. ???
I looked at the Lionel site and couldn't find a parts breakdown manual. Does anyone know if there is one on this site or where I can get one?

All considered, the Lionel Challenger is beautifully detailed and it really adds class to the layout. I hope many of you will respond to my need for help and I will be able to get him running proud.

Thanks, REX

[Anonymous]

Did you get the 31 page DC/DCC owners manual?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rexhea

I received my new and beautiful Lionel Challenger yesterday from Internet Trains and have a few problems that I need help with. First, I need to say that I don't know very much about the workings of a steamer, but I am mechanically and electrically savy.

Run time has been about 1 hour.

1. ???
I have done all the things to the tender that was suggested in the tips at Tony's Train except one. It says to remove the pilot spring. Is this the pilot on the centipede or one on the loco?

2. ???
The front loco pilot and the front drivers will frequently derail in a 26" Radius curve. My Class A and others have no problems anywhere on the layout.

3. ???
After switching to reverse, the gearing sometimes seems to be locked up. You can feel the motor thumping and a tap on the loco will get it going.

4. ???
I looked at the Lionel site and couldn't find a parts breakdown manual. Does anyone know if there is one on this site or where I can get one?

All considered, the Lionel Challenger is beautifully detailed and it really adds class to the layout. I hope many of you will respond to my need for help and I will be able to get him running proud.

Thanks, REX

My Lionel engine that I purchased a few months ago had the same hitch in it. I checked the gearboxes and the front engine idler gear was my problem. Many other varibles also happened. One problem was the screws that hold the side rods onto the wheels. They are large and will catch also on the rods under centain conditions. I filed them almost flat. After much work, the engine runs fairly well. I have a set of rollers and ran it for about twenty hours and the engine is much better now.

It takes work, but it will be worth it.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bangert1
My Lionel engine that I purchased a few months ago had the same hitch in it. I checked the gearboxes and the front engine idler gear was my problem. Many other varibles also happened. One problem was the screws that hold the side rods onto the wheels. They are large and will catch also on the rods under centain conditions. I filed them almost flat. After much work, the engine runs fairly well. I have a set of rollers and ran it for about twenty hours and the engine is much better now.
It takes work, but it will be worth it.

Amazing! Why torment yourself? If this is indicative of the kind of problems that Lionel has with these engines, than maybe them getting out of HO is a good thing!
Maybe this is good riddance!

[Anonymous]

Rex needs a little help. That's why he posted.

[rexhea]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

Did you get the 31 page DC/DCC owners manual?

Yes, I got the manual. It doesn't have a parts breakdown section. I haven't taken a steamer apart yet and thought that a parts section would help finger it out.

QUOTE: My Lionel engine that I purchased a few months ago had the same hitch in it. I checked the gearboxes and the front engine idler gear was my problem. Many other varibles also happened. One problem was the screws that hold the side rods onto the wheels. They are large and will catch also on the rods under centain conditions. I filed them almost flat.

Thanks Banger1. I am looking at the engineer's side and see the small lever that rides an eccentric shaped slot and connects to the back wheel of the front driver. It is floppy loose at the eccentric compared to the one on the other side. Can't see how to tighten anything. Maybe this is causing hang-ups and the derail?? Are the levers attached by screws or rivets in this part of the mechanism?

What did you end up doing about the idler gear? I see four corner screws under the boiler. Are these the ones to take out to remove top and if so is this all?
Which pilot spring was mentioned in the tech tip at Tony's?

QUOTE: Amazing! Why torment yourself? If this is indicative of the kind of problems that Lionel has with these engines, than maybe them getting out of HO is a good thing!
Maybe this is good riddance!

You may be right, kbfcsme, but I already have this loco and would like to get him going. He's beautiful and powerful looking and would do any layout proud. Did you ever stop and think that Lionel's problem in HO was the price? I could have never paid $700.00 for this Challenger.

REX

[cacole]

I never removed any spring and mine runs just fine without any derailments. One thing you MUST do right away is lubricate the model. Read through the booklet that came with it and lubricate it as instructed because it was not oiled at the factory. It seems that none of the locomotives coming out of factories in China are lubricated, because I have had similar experiences with Athearn Genesis, Broadway Limited, Bachmann Spectrum, and the Lionel beginning to squeak and bind after a short period of running, and having to be lubricated. I removed the weight from the tender as Tony's Web site advised, and could tell no significant difference in the weight of the tender or in the pulling power of the locomotive with less weight. I tweaked the sounds as recommended on Tony's sight and the whistle sounds a little better on DCC, but still not what I would call good. I have never heard a real Challenger's whistle so I can't say if it was really so horrible sounding or not, but the model's whistle is irritatingly shrill and too high pitched. Initially, the Challenger wouldn't pull itself out of a wet bag because there was some type of very slick coating on the drive wheels that had to be worn off. Now it is one of the best running engines I have other than a Broadway Limited Santa Fe 4-8-4 Northern and a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation.

[rexhea]

Cacole,
Your right about the tender weight removal. The Tender is so heavy it didn't seem to make that much difference. Maybe an additional 4-5 cars. I haven't given the loco a test on the inclines yet. Still waiting to solve the derail problem. I already ran my 4-8-2 into the pasture siding by going against a turnout and don't need another in the maintenance shop.

The whistle sound is terrible. I did improve it some using the cotton, but it still is too raspy. The proto sound is very deep, but doesn't have what sounds like white noise instead of steam included. At low volume it's good, but that is too low to be heard well.

REX

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rexhea

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

Did you get the 31 page DC/DCC owners manual?

Yes, I got the manual. It doesn't have a parts breakdown section. I haven't taken a steamer apart yet and thought that a parts section would help finger it out.

QUOTE: My Lionel engine that I purchased a few months ago had the same hitch in it. I checked the gearboxes and the front engine idler gear was my problem. Many other varibles also happened. One problem was the screws that hold the side rods onto the wheels. They are large and will catch also on the rods under centain conditions. I filed them almost flat.

Thanks Banger1. I am looking at the engineer's side and see the small lever that rides an eccentric shaped slot and connects to the back wheel of the front driver. It is floppy loose at the eccentric compared to the one on the other side. Can't see how to tighten anything. Maybe this is causing hang-ups and the derail?? Are the levers attached by screws or rivets in this part of the mechanism?

What did you end up doing about the idler gear? I see four corner screws under the boiler. Are these the ones to take out to remove top and if so is this all?
Which pilot spring was mentioned in the tech tip at Tony's?

QUOTE: Amazing! Why torment yourself? If this is indicative of the kind of problems that Lionel has with these engines, than maybe them getting out of HO is a good thing!
Maybe this is good riddance!

You may be right, kbfcsme, but I already have this loco and would like to get him going. He's beautiful and powerful looking and would do any layout proud. Did you ever stop and think that Lionel's problem in HO was the price? I could have never paid $700.00 for this Challenger.

REX

The idler gear is hard to determine if that is your problem, but fix the hitch you found by the rods catching other parts, like the piston rod slide. The space between the two on my engine required I file the screws down to allow the space between the two. The rods would actually catch on them. The gear seemed to be out of round and you can watch it from below if you remove the cover. I don’t recommend the fix I used on the gear, but if it does not have clearance between it and the other gears, they will bind.

Look carefully and make sure none of the rods or valve gears are touching as this was one reason they lock up and you have to change directions to get it to run.

I believe Lionel should have worked on the design with some of us modelers before they put it into production.

I did remove the weight from the tender also as someone else has mentioned. The best fix for the tender will be to get an Athearn shell and replace the Lionel tender shell if you can. The vertical lines about halfway down the sides should be rivets, not formed like a pipe.

[rexhea]

Thanks Banger1. I had one rod assembly that was catching. I did as you said and ran it back/forward and at 50% speed mainline for over an hour without any problems. I didn't have any more derails either. I believe some of the problems were taken care of by breaking it in more. I did remove the tender pilot spring and let it float. It doesn't seem to be as sensitive going over turnouts now. I also adjusted the whistle volume to 12 and got much better sound. 9 was a bit too low although very good quality.

Thanks again all, REX

[Anonymous]

To rexhea: I know you posted your questons about the Challenger on August 1st, but this is the first time I've been on the "Forum" so I just read it. I don't want to discourage you but I am now on my 3rd Lionel Challenger and it doesn't operate any better than the first two did. If you send it to Lionel, you'll have to wait three days for them to send you a shipping number, then you can send it, but FIRST you have to call them to get their permission to return it in the first place. I've heard nothing about removing any springs, but I did have to tighten the spring under the pilot wheels on all three locos. I did it simply by bending it and it did help some. I have been back and fourth with Lionel since last December of '03, and I still have a locomotive I cannot depend on. It will derail at the least provocation and seldom in the same place twice in an evening of playing with it. I have even gone to great lengths to replace track where it would frequently derail, but that hasn't helped. I am presently in the motions of "getting permission" to return this 3rd Challenger, but I'm sure they will say I abused it, like they did on the first one and NOT honor their warranty. I paid an additional $280.00 for the second one and they exchanged the third one for free. If they want any more money for this 4th Challenger, they can keep it and I'll buy the new Athern Challenger, whenever it comes out in DCC. It IS a beautfully detailed locomotive and I love it, but I can't seem to live with it.

[Anonymous]

Hey, Rex! I forgot to tell you something else about the Challenger. If you have a problem derailing at times and not other times, check the flapping-floor behind the cab. It sometimes impinges on the temder's front end and causes a derailment. This also happens to other locos, so you've probably already eliminated this problem. It took me 3 days to find out about that problem because I don't have anyone with whom to talk about model railroads.

[rexhea]

Crabb
Thank you very much for the info. So far my testing has been on flat track and I haven't hooked on to a consist or gone up an incline yet. After some tweaking last night, the loco appeared to be tracking good. I haven't had any problem with the walkway, but I hook to the outer hole on the tender and this gives plenty of clearance on mine.However, I have a lot of open grid and I am very nervous about derailing into the pasture siding. Its a long drop to a concrete floor particularly from the upper levels.

I have a friend that has his NMRA Master Builder certificate in Motive Power. He specializes in steam and I am going to get him to tear into it and check it out. I believe it will help me feel more secure, particularly after what you have posted.

UPDATE: Well, I spoke to soon. What I am finding out is the Challenger, in its present condition, will derail with the slightest track irregularity. Also, I am questioning the amount of rock the boiler assembly has versus that on my Class A. I think it may be causing something to intermittently hang.

REX

[Anonymous]

Hi Rex: Looks like you're doing something right. I had a break-through day today! The Challenger derailed only twice in five laps around the layout! I immediately parked it back in the Engine House before something drastic happened. By the way, I'm not sending it back to Lionel. Even if I have to frame it and hang it on the wall, it's still the most beautiful locomotive in HO. Last January I saw the real UP Challenger #3885 roar past me at twenty feet away on the way to Little Rock. It was breath-taking when I heard that loud whistle and the clanging bell, as the crowd cheered it on. It must have been going 60 or 70 MPH because by the time my digital camera recycled for the second picture, I cought the tail end of it. I wish I knew how to post pictures on this hodgepod of forums and I could send you a couple of great pix I took of it. You know, our challengers have too many wheels....just like this website. It has too many forums. It took me fifteen minutes to find you again, and this particular "conversation." I took someone's advice from this column last night and lubricated my #3801. Maybe, that's why it acted so good today. I never knew they didn't lubricate them before they were sold. Now, I'm in the process of lubricating my BLI Mikado and Mountain just to be sure.

As for the open framework and a mishap to the pasture, I had the same doubts and fears only a few months ago. In fact, I was so scared of running the Challenger (#3801) to check the track, I spread a thick blanket on the cement floor of my garage then covered it with all kionbds of throw pillows from our bed to the living room sofa and chairs. My wife had a hissy-fit, but I returned them unharmewd and clean. By the way, #3801 hit the pillows only one time. Was I glad a pillow was there? Another suggestion is to take out some building time and stretch an old blanket, sheet, or whatever across the underside of the table and tie it securely to the legs of the table about 2 feet from the cement., ...kinda like an trapeze safety net. I could have checked the track paying with a 0-6-0 switcher, but that wouldn't mean a thing when #3801 got on the rails. By the way, what is your average track radiusand how do ou know? Nice talking with you.

[Anonymous]

(Sigh)

I fell for the BS too. Got one from trainworld for $225. Damn.....this thing has so many issues, design of certain basic parts being the largest one. Lets begin....

The pins that connect the drivers to the rods have oversized heads which snag and run into the the valve gear with each rotation.

The timing rod isn't projected out far enough from the rest of the rods, so it rubs them.

The gear tower on the rear engine is located too far back on the rear frame and cause this 2 pound loco to balance improperly. It should be closer to the center driver. Its placement cause the 1st drivers of the rear engine to raise up and not contact the rail.

The spring on the trailing truck is too stiff and doesn't ride well.

The tender weights about 6 oz too much, which reduces the number of cars Challenger can move. I removed that extra lead weight.

It's 2 pound body isn't balanced well on the two engines. Not stiff enough.
It tilts to far side to side. [V]

I've done "tweeking" to most of these problems and now can move 36 cars up our 2%
grade. But it runs with sort of a jiggle wobble, more visible on curves.


Very dissapointing. Now I'm glad Lionel's leaving the HO market. They don't know what their doing.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Crabb

Last January I saw the real UP Challenger #3885 roar past me at twenty feet away on the way to Little Rock. It was breath-taking when I heard that loud whistle and the clanging bell, as the crowd cheered it on. It must have been going 60 or 70 MPH .

According to the UP literature it's top speed is 70 MPH.

[Anonymous]

Banger1, did you figure out how to get inside the front gear tower? How did you solve the idler gear problem?

I've dissassembled the towers to the point of being stumped. Can't figure anything else to take apart.

[AggroJones]

I've noticed an abundance to threads adressing problems with the Lionel Challengers.
Are they really that bad? At $225, it seems like I should look into one.

[Anonymous]

Guys, I've had the same problems with high priced brass steam locos that y'all are having. I think it is hard for manufacturers to QC so many moving part. Break-in is very important to the reliable running issue. I have always had trouble getting steamers tractive effort up to snuff even using rubber traction tires. I don't have the Lionel Challenger, but do have one made by Rivarossi. I've had it for almost 25 years. My biggest complaint about it was the oversized flanges. It had issues when I first got it, but with patience and a little elbow grease it came around.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AggroJones

I've noticed an abundance to threads adressing problems with the Lionel Challengers.
Are they really that bad? At $225, it seems like I should look into one.

These new Challengers seems to be a Challenge.

I opted for the Athearn since they may be around to service them a bit longer.

I bot a pair of Mantuas three years back and the President told me, "Lifetime warranty".
A few months later they were history. I