Ever since I read "Brakeman on the Yellow Extra" in oh, 1972, or so, operations has been my aim, goal, and desire in this hobby.
I love good quality RTR models such as we have now, because they allowed me to get enough cars on the rails to start running op sessions almost instantly.
I love good quality kits too. I have a 3 pack of Bowser CNW cement hoppers, and I've built two. They are just plain fun to build. On the other hand I've gotten very tired of Athearn blue box kits; they aren't complex enough to be any fun for me.
But my op sessions do not live or die on building those kits.
Same thing with locomotives. I am EXTREMELY grateful I no longer have to spend hours just trying to get the stupid thing to run reliably, or weeks making it match a prototype. The ability to buy CNW GP-7s, Soo GP-9s and F-units, and even an ex-D&H Baldwin sharknose and put them right on the rails, means I have more time to spend on things like the ex-MKT Baldwin/EMD hybrids or the FM H-1666s.So, my answer is "yes."
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
I think for me, that I was always into super detailed. Back when I started you could build your own or buy brass (which you ussually had to paint and decal). Now super detailed is for sale in vast qunitys and sometimes cheaper than a kit on e-bay or at train shows.
dknelson...to my way of thinking RTR versus shake the box versus complex modern plastic versus true craftsman kits is NOT a differentiator between types of modelers or the abilities or seriousness of those modelers, but more to why that particular car was purchased and what "need" the purchaser was filling when they bought it.
That's how I see it. A car's a car. I don't care where it came from, only that it fills a need.
My layout has my own stamp on it everywhere -track, structures, scenery, weathering, room finishing, whatever. By the time a car receives extra decals and weathering, it's one of "my" cars, and may have several hours of time invested. The source of a particular car is meaningless to me in that context, but it's important the car is appropriate for the era and modeled location within the rail network.
Given my late 70s, early 80s era, I do prefer to use kits for older house cars so I can readily model the post-1966 safety appliances as necessary. It's often easier to build kits into the proper configuration than to remove the running boards and modify ladders on RTR models.
Rob Spangler
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
mlehman steemtrayn It would be nice if a bluebox 50 foot boxcar would fit in the box it came in after it was built. That's probably water over the bridge, now... On the other hand, at least the RTR cars do fit back in their box, so that's "progress" of a sort.
steemtrayn It would be nice if a bluebox 50 foot boxcar would fit in the box it came in after it was built.
It would be nice if a bluebox 50 foot boxcar would fit in the box it came in after it was built.
That's probably water over the bridge, now...
On the other hand, at least the RTR cars do fit back in their box, so that's "progress" of a sort.
Isn't that supposed to be water under the bridge, not water over the bridge?
Mike, do you mean water over the dam?
See, I just knew that this thread would turn controversial.
Can't you get it right, Mike???
Rich
Alton Junction
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I’ve never really understood why arm waving and foaming at the mouth seems to dog these sorts of discussions; heck we’re all supposed to be having fun aren’t we?? Cheers, the Bear.
richhotrainWait a minute ! Isn't that supposed to be water under the bridge, not water over the bridge?
Flood waters maybe?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I haven't noticed any real arm waving or foaming at the mouth here yet, Mr Bear.
But who knows what waits ahead past the next mile post.
Dusty
trainnut1250As for kits I won’t build: Every train guy I know already has more kits than they can complete in this lifetime stashed away. A rather sobering realization when you reach that point. I have seven file boxes full of some pretty cool stuff. My stash is comparatively small. Your mileage may vary,Guy
In my case I had quite a few kits stashed away and after enough years had gone by, I realized (just like some house hold items) if they've been unattended that long, out they go. I had to come to the realization that I didn't generally enjoy building kits and it was simply a means to an end - which is probably true for many in the pre-HQRTR era. Since that realization, I have sold off more than half of them to folks who like doing that sort of thing. My guess is hundreds of others have to judging from the quantities of kits at train shows. I do build kits if the rolling stock is important as a typical era type freight car for my era/local.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Dusty SoloBut who knows what waits ahead past the next mile post. Dusty
Approach medium approach maybe?
richhotrainWait a minute ! Isn't that supposed to be water under the bridge, not water over the bridge? Mike, do you mean water over the dam? See, I just knew that this thread would turn controversial. Super Angry Can't you get it right, Mike??? Hmm
I thought this thread didn't have enough controversy, so I made some up...
The only way I'll start getting things like that all politically correct is if my brain starts getting younger. I suspect some of the water does go over the bridge some of the time, so it'll be controversial to say most of it still goes under the bridge...
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I have said previously that I love wood kits and while I agree that attempting to make a metal car with wood is a hard project, I think wood kits for wood cars work just fine. It's pretty easy to finish the wood to a point where there are no fuzzies anymore and the cars will turn out wonderful. All my Northern Pacific cabooses that where wood cabooses in real life are made from wood kits. I have kit bashed an Athearn cupola caboose into the early N.P. steel caboose, added metal grabs and brake detail, and I think it turned out pretty well. I just bought another wood Gloor Craft N.P. 24 foot caboose and look forward to building that.
When I get into the R/C hobby, it is all about building planes and not flying Almost Ready to Fly (ARFs)! All three of the hobbies I enjoy, I enjoy because I love building. My love of building things helped me greatly with my lifes work and a Tool & Die Maker, back before this trade became a "push button" CNC operation.
I suppose I should break down and spend $40.00 on a RTR freight car so I can admire all the glorious details. Howevr, I just can't get by the fact that I can almost buy 3 Accurail cars for the price of the one RTR.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I think that it is generational, speaking in model railroading terms.
If you are an old timer in the hobby, you are going to love kits, especially because that was about all that was available at one time. But, if you are a relative newcomer to the hobby like me (I started in early 2004), you went with RTR because they were readily available and you got a quick start into the hobby. I, for one, have no interest in building kits.
This is an old argument. It is like DC versus DCC. Old timers in the hobby love DC, and a relative few move to DCC. Relative newcomers to the hobby like me have no interest in the complexities and limitations of DC.
Same with steam versus diesel. Old timers like me remember steam. As a kid, I crawled through the fence and over the tracks to reach the park to play ball. I loved it when I heard the steam whistle and watched my mother run out to pull drying laundry off the clothes line in the back yard. So, I love steam. A 30-year old doesn't have that first hand experience, so he is less likely to model steam, preferring late era diesels instead.
richhotrainIf you are an old timer in the hobby, you are going to love kits, especially because that was about all that was available at one time.
How's about old geezers like me that likes the RTR cars and locomotives?
While I've built some kits lately I haven't stop buying the needed RTR cars and after I gain the required 60 cars(number needed for best rotation) I will reassign my older kit cars to club use.
BRAKIE richhotrain If you are an old timer in the hobby, you are going to love kits, especially because that was about all that was available at one time. How's about old geezers like me that likes the RTR cars and locomotives? While I've built some kits lately I haven't stop buying the needed RTR cars and after I gain the required 60 cars(number needed for best rotation) I will reassign my older kit cars to club use.
richhotrain If you are an old timer in the hobby, you are going to love kits, especially because that was about all that was available at one time.
Exceptions to every rule Brakie.
One other thing to add to the discussion.
We all have our RTR cars. Kit cars and scratchbuilt (ok I don't have any scratch built cars, but I am sure some people do.)
What about structures?
For myself "Built-up" (TM) structures have been nice for the club modules, because they are built up, come in a travel box that can take a fair amount of jostling and still look nice. For my personal layout though I'm finding that the "Built-up" (TM) just don't fit. Kits and kitbashing with a hefty amount of scratch building is the order of the day (who am I kidding...it'll be years.) Loading platforms, unloading platforms, accessways between pickle vats, brining vats, etc. While I find the building of the platform bents tedious, the finished product seems more authentic. Don't ask me why. But the constant sameness, even when modified, wears on my imagination. The sameness undermines the varied nature of human design. That being said, for the club modules, sameness is the watch word, because try as I might I can't scratchbuild a structure that has the same strength as the Walthers, DPM, and WS kits. Inevitably the structures I scratchbuild or kitbash just can't take the beating that the kits can.
I think it was John Armstrong who said something about this years ago...I can't remember the exact quote but it was basically 'I enjoy building things, but it's primarily a means to an end. If I can buy an already built model of what I need, I have no problem buying it and using it." That's kinda how I feel. I like building kits, but in recent years I've primarily done structure kits. Most freight cars I get are RTR and pre-decorated, but if I find say a pre-dec kit of something I want, I'm fine with building the kit.
I am biased towards kit-building- but also, I take great satisfaction in re-building and re-purposing old built Athearn and other cars I pick up at swap meets. The several RTRs I do have represent cars for which current kit availability is non-existent, but more importantly, it is not just the satisfaction I get from working with my hands and eyes, but the mental design process that I truly enjoy. Right now- as I write- I am drawing the B&M McGinnis logo on CAD, so I can downsize it to HO decal dimensions, sufficient to enable me to print my own decal out on white decal paper. Sure- it is a bit of work, but it adds intrinsic personal value to the model I will use it on- it also is a skill-building exercise, and ultimately, keeps me mentally agile as I enter late middle age. So- there is a health-benefit argument to kit building and working on the railroad; one that RTR alone cannot claim!
Cedarwoodron
Everytime our OPs Group gets together and the subject of Detailed cars vs the Kit cars comes up and the discussion gets heated
I always sit back and have to laugh at the proponents of one type over the other.
Finally after everyone is at a feaver pitch - I ask this simple question -
I will take a simple old Tyco car and the latest greatest super detailed RTR car and hold both out at arms length
Then Drop both on the cement floor!
I then ask - WHICH of the two cars do they think will still be Operable?
And it always somes down to the old TYCO car - it wins everytime!
So what good is all of this Detail - if it can't stand a little derailment (and we ALL know the only place a car DERAILS will be where it can fall to the cement floor)! ;-) ;-)
Unfortunately I have had this Scenerio happen and it isn't a pretty sight!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I have perhaps 20-or-so r-t-r cars on the layout, but none were truly ready to run.
These r-t-r Proto1000 boxcars came with free-standing grabirons, but they were, unfortunately, plastic, and overly thick. I replaced all 34 of them (on each of a dozen cars) with metal ones, all custom bent as they're a non-standard size. The same cars also got new A-Line sill steps, 6 apiece, to replace the clunky plastic ones:
A friend gave me three of these Proto2000 r-t-r hoppers, and I was pleased to see that the grabirons were metal:
However, never one to leave well-enough alone, I was compelled to scribe board detail on the cars' interior walls:
This Walthers r-t-r express reefer looked pretty-good until I checked some prototype photos and noticed that the running boards and end detail were somewhat different than those found on the model (the model is not necessarily wrong, though - I don't model Pennsy specifically and can't say for sure). I liked the look in the photos better, though, so changed the details on the model, then renumbered the car to match one of the photos:
The Athearn/MDC r-t-r milk cars were era-appropriate for my late-'30s layout, but not a car normally seen in southern Ontario and certainly not with any of the paint schemes in which they were offered. Besides that, they were beyond my budget. Apparently, other local modellers weren't too enthused about them, either, and they languished on the shelves of a LHS for some time. Surprisingly (for that store, at least) they eventually went on sale for a price I could afford. Mine aren't much changed from original (new roofwalk grabirons) but I did strip off the lettering for American dairies, then re-painted the cars with Accupaint CNR Green, and used C-D-S dry transfers to letter them for my own home road. No longer fitted with interior milk tanks, they're used as insulated (but not refrigerated) cars in either milk can service or for fresh fish (with top-icing).
dti406 I prefer kits to ready to run, but I also prefer undecorated kits and these are getting scarcer than hen' teeth anymore. A big plus to Intermountain, Exactrail and Atlas for continueing to bring in undecorated kits with each new shipment of cars for the most part. And a Big BOO! to Athearn and Walthers for their avoidance of undecorated kits.
I prefer kits to ready to run, but I also prefer undecorated kits and these are getting scarcer than hen' teeth anymore. A big plus to Intermountain, Exactrail and Atlas for continueing to bring in undecorated kits with each new shipment of cars for the most part. And a Big BOO! to Athearn and Walthers for their avoidance of undecorated kits.
Surprisingly, I picked up this Pennsy RPO as an undecorated semi-kit (one of two available at English' Model Railroad Supply). The car was new-in-box and mostly assembled, with a bag of detail parts to be added by the modeller. As mentioned, I don't model the Pennsy, and it would be unlikely that this car would have ever been in southern Ontario, so I altered the porthole-type windows in the doors to a more generic rectangular type, then re-painted the car for my home road:
Not a true kit, but definitely not r-t-r, either.
Wayne
cmrproducts Everytime our OPs Group gets together and the subject of Detailed cars vs the Kit cars comes up and the discussion gets heated I always sit back and have to laugh at the proponents of one type over the other. Finally after everyone is at a feaver pitch - I ask this simple question - I will take a simple old Tyco car and the latest greatest super detailed RTR car and hold both out at arms length Then Drop both on the cement floor! I then ask - WHICH of the two cars do they think will still be Operable? And it always somes down to the old TYCO car - it wins everytime! So what good is all of this Detail - if it can't stand a little derailment (and we ALL know the only place a car DERAILS will be where it can fall to the cement floor)! ;-) ;-) Unfortunately I have had this Scenerio happen and it isn't a pretty sight! BOB H - Clarion, PA
I do have the occasional derailment, but it's usually due to operator error, and minor in nature. The only "drop-to-the-concrete-floor" mishap involved this loco:
"Someone" forgot to shut off the power to a staging track and, with the lift-out at the doorway not in place, the loco fell head-first to the concrete floor (only about 3', though). The only apparent damage was a destroyed Kadee on the pilot and a broken drawbar pin on the tender, both easily repaired.About two years later, the same loco was running, doubleheaded with a sister Consolidation when the train stalled on a grade - both locos were still running, but the 26's drivers were not turning. Upon disassembly, it was discovered that one of the plastic posts into which the screw which held the motor/gear assembly in place had broken off, allowing the worm to disengage from the axle gear. The only way this could have occurred was in the original mishap, as there had been no other catastrophic incident. The repair was easily effected, and the loco again runs as if new.
As for Tyco (much of which could be considered r-t-r), I use them but usually mount the cars on better trucks and add body-mounted Kadees, plus a little brake gear and wire grabs and steps:
However, because the floors in these reefers tend to sag, I decided to give them new floors. One thing lead to another...
...and I ended up with a bunch of these:
They probably wouldn't fare all that well in a meet with the floor, but stuff like that almost never happens here.
Without doing a head count I don't think I have any R-T-R freight cars. Passenger cars: yes of course, but not freight cars. This is by happenstance rather than as a preference for models that require final assembly to be layout ready. Some models I bought from other modelers & were built kits & were well priced.
I do have waiting to be built three V9 Watermelon/Ventilator cars. These are resin kits produced by, Wrighttrack & require a lot of work to produce a highly detailed car - a daunting task right now that not every thing works quite the same as they did when I was a little younger.
I have a kit for one of those same watermelon cars, along with an undecorated one from Tangent for a 3-dome ACF tank car. And, supposedly in October, I should be receiving my undecorated meat reefer kit from Rapido. High quality kits are available, but I'd guess that we won't have them for long unless enough folks buy them.
NP2626 I suppose I should break down and spend $40.00 on a RTR freight car so I can admire all the glorious details. Howevr, I just can't get by the fact that I can almost buy 3 Accurail cars for the price of the one RTR.
Honestly, if there are no RTR cars that fit your NP modeling, no need to buy one just to be politically correct! =P My guess is RTR Intermountain may have some good cars for Pacific north-west NP modeling and while they may not be crazy detailed, they are nice and can be had at street prices of $20-25, a good deal less than $40. Now for $39 I did bite and pickup a few of the ExactRail Bethlehem 4-bay D&RGW coal cars - those are gorgeous and very accurate for D&RGW great steel fleet - but no way I can afford a full unit train of them. The 6 I do have will be behind the road power with the 36 Walthers kit built hoppers following behind - see! I do build kits! Have quite a few built.
Accurail are nice easy to build kits but many are not very good matches for specific prototypes but some are decent stand-in's, and of course the CF4600 hoppersr are very decent.
YoHo1975I'm a price sensitive modeler. Shake the box and even more difficult kits have traditionally and often still offer a good price. Time equals money, and I'm willing to trade some of my time for a larger fleet. The flip side is that as a "modern era" modeler, there are only so many kits out there that are appropriate since the largest producers don't do them anymore. So I buy RTR and Kits as appropriate and as the Wallet dictates.
Yoho, prices is definitely a limiting factor for many of us, me included. I'd like to have a lot more ExactRail and Genesis freight cars, especially because many areexcellent for 70's/80's era Southern Pacific/D&RGW railroad, but at costs in the $30-40 range, I can only afford 1 or 2 of this or that and am always playing catch-up to have a good sampling of appopriate freight cars. I have found that at train shows you can often gleen nice RTR freight cars - for prices in the $10-15 dollar range if there is a collection for sale which helps in the budget war. For example I found an ExactRail UP PC&F box car for $10, and some RTR Intermountain box cars for $8 to 14 depending on the car. Some online places if you stay vigelent will have sales on Intermountain RTR cars recent production models for around $20. Kits? even cheaper, in the $5-10 range often.
riogrande5761 I have found that at train shows you can often gleen nice RTR freight cars - for prices in the $10-15 dollar range if there is a collection for sale which helps in the budget war
Jim,That's the thing..I have notice new old stock RTR cars at $12-18.00 while some older BB and Roundhouse kits was $10.00 each at some shows..Then as we know there are dealers selling BB kits 3/$10.00 in the next aisle..
It even worst on e-Bay..I seen the BB and Roundhouse car kits at the same price as some of the better brands of RTR cars.Accurail kits can be as much as some older Atlas or Athearn RTR cars.
I will mention some of the better Accurail deals can be found in their 3 packs.
I haven't purchased any rolling stock in any kind of quantity for many years, but just about all of them are kits. I have always liked the tried and true BB (most of my stuff is YB) kits, but I have few MDC and TM cars. I have one RTR car and I also have 3 more modern cars that my wife picked up at a garage sale, which may have started as kits.
For the most part, I like the kits. BBs don't have much challenge to them, but they're fun and relaxing. I also have a car in mind that I want to try scratch building In styrene. The original kit was wood, but I feel it would be too light in weight, hence styrene. I'll kept you posted if and when I tackle it.
Jim (with a nod to Mies Van Der Rohe)
I don't consider myself a rivet counter by any means, primarily because I do not know enough about the prototypes to be very good at it....but details and paint matter to me.
The factory can build a model better than I can. This isn't a philosophy...its just reality.
I like Accurail kits...I will always support them....but other than them, I'm RTR for rolling stock and locos. I like to weather items, so I get a taste of model building and customizing there.
For structures, I despise RTR and prefer kitbashing. I guess that's where I realy let out my modeling part of the hobby.
- Douglas