NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Model builder here -- I love (and, sometimes hate!) the challenges presented.
I've also got a lot of "train-set RTR" stuff that I also want to bring up to higher standards as well (body-mounted couplers, better grabs, etc.). They'll likely "fall short" of the advanced kits like Blueprint Series / Tichy / Red Caboose ... but still, they'll look good.
RTR is nice and all, but (IMO) takes that part of the "fun" out of model railroading.
HOWEVER, for the guys who's "Model Railroading" centers around operations or photo-realism or stuff like that, opening 10-15 boxes, and putting the cars in the yard might be "just the thing" that they need.
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
I spend more time building kits than I do running trains.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley I spend more time building kits than I do running trains.
Well and economically played, Mr. B.
I certainly do, but there's also lots of bashing and hacking going on, too.
On the other hand, as a narrowgauger I certainly appreciate how RTR had given me more time to build the kits I want to build. If you're a Rio Grande NG modeler, you now have the option of using Blackstone RTR to supplement and grow your fleet of essential cars. You almost can't get enough 3000-series boxcars. Between building them and buying RTR I have dozens. But building them does get a bit tedious and there are so many other kits I can -- even need to -- build instead that it makes buying RTR sensible.
Then there are the drop-bottom gons. The kits for these are especially challenging, yet when coal was king you need lots of these, along with the standard gons which also carried coal in the days when hand labor to unload them was cheap. Here, I am especially grateful for RTR, as the the kit build needed to produce one is particularly lengthy and involved. There's a new batch of the 800-series DB gons just hitting the stores in case anyone's interested. For me, these will be enough to round out my fleet.
I'd like to have another half-dozen boxcars in the future to go along with the last of my 3000-series kits, but after that I can be even more selective about what I need to build. I'll have enough cars to meet the traffic needs of the layout during ops sessions. If I had to build 'em all, meeting that quota would still be 20+ years away. I'd rather be operating during much of that time as the eyes get weaker and the hands shakier. RTR has given me that time and one of the primary things I intend to do with it is build kits in a more leisurely manner.
That to me is the real benefit of RTR. Buying RTR frees up time to build kits of stuff that will likely never be available RTR. My situiation/prototype may be a bit of an outlier where most folks are concerned, as they often buy RTR simply because A) It's there, and B) They can afford it. On the other hand, the expense of RTR has grown so that kits again seem increasingly attractive to many -- and you sure can't beat the entertainment value of building versus opening a box. This suggests somewhat of a kit revival may be in store as people realize there is a lot of value in kit building and most people's hobby budgets are still suffering.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I prefer kits to ready to run, but I also prefer undecorated kits and these are getting scarcer than hen' teeth anymore. A big plus to Intermountain, Exactrail and Atlas for continueing to bring in undecorated kits with each new shipment of cars for the most part. And a Big BOO! to Athearn and Walthers for their avoidance of undecorated kits.
I do buy RTR cars for cars that are unvailable as kits or there is no decal set for the car I want to do. The loss of Champ, Greg Komar, Jerry Glow and Oddballs decals in the last few months have dealt a great blow to those that want to paint and decal their own cars and locomotives!
Just my
Rick J
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
I used to buy kits or RTR by someone else but once the RTR from the manufacturer started having better detail than what I could do (and I am far from unskilled). I started buying mostly RTR and now only RTR. When I want to kit build, I build a building, a place that is almost impossible to find quality RTR, even from other builders.
Brings up my personal problem, since I am downsizing do I want to get rid of all my kits now, will I ever build them?
I was buying nothing but the new RTR cars until I found several old Roundhouse kits at a train show and building these simple kits renewed my interest in kit building and since building those kits I have boughtand built several more Roundhouse and Bev-Bel/Athearn cars..
Here's the watch it!
I have to watch the prices on these cars especially on e-Bay since one can find the better detailed RTR cars at or near the same price as these older kits.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I hear you rrebell -- I will probably die of old age with unbuilt kits on my shelves and some of those kits are there right now and were there a decade ago too. And I keep adding to the pile! And in the final analysis, that's fine. I bought them because they were "needed" (using that word in the strange way we model railroaders use words like "needed" or "essential" or "important" -- that is, meaning they are merely "wanted").
But I myself do not view our world as a RTR versus kit environment. A couple of years ago when I started to tally my roster I realized that given the industries on my layout I "needed" far more flat cars than I had, or had unbuilt on the shelves. Moreover the kind of flatcars I "needed" were often available in very nice RTR versions from Intermountain and others. So when I'd see them at Trainfest I'd buy them, even if similar kits were available because I realized that regardless of the time I set aside for kits, these flatcars were really "needed" (see above) in quantity if I wanted to run my layout the way it should be.
I also have plenty of boxcar, flatcar, reefer, and tank car kits sitting on my shelves, ranging from shake the box Athearn blue box, Bowser and Accurail to more challenging Intermountain, Red Caboose, P2K, Tichy, IMWX and other lines. If it's 9 pm and I am yawning after a nice dinner and just want to do something, I can grab a blue box or Bowser or Accurail and go to bed having moved that car from kit shelf to active shelf. If it is New Year's Day morning and I am home snowbound and feeling like the time has come, darn it, to really accomplish something, I pull down a Red Caboose or Intermountain or P2K kit after breakfast and it won't likely even be completed by dinnertime. I like the challenge and I like the feeling of accomplishment.
But those who have serious benchwork or scenery or structure goals can get that feeling of challenge and accomplishment in other ways having nothing to do with rolling stock.
There really should be no reason to feel nervous or uneasy about starting a complex kit. With a few exceptions it is not that they are so much more "difficult" than other kits, but rather there is just so much more to do with them that requires such a larger commitment of time and concentration. They can be frustrating as a result. I think it is that need for sustained concentration and commitment, rather than skill or seriousness, that makes complex kits a lower priority for some modelers.
What I am getting at here (slowly, as is my custom) is that to my way of thinking RTR versus shake the box versus complex modern plastic versus true craftsman kits is NOT a differentiator between types of modelers or the abilities or seriousness of those modelers, but more to why that particular car was purchased and what "need" the purchaser was filling when they bought it. The need for a particular car or type of car to be on the layout NOW. The need to occupy time in an enjoyable challenge. There are many such "needs" -- and again, not needs at all but "wants."
If building complex kits keeps you from accomplishing other important goals on the layout then you have made a decision I won 't argue with, but you have seemingly placed the layout second. Some guys place the layout first, some don't. Some guys can build the most complex kits really fast; I cannot. And some guys can build the most complex kits AND keep moving forward on completing the layout and operating it. I hate those guys! (not really)
Dave Nelson
NP2626 Instead of making the above a Kits VS RTR ... I’m wondering if the act of building models in Model Railroading has become blasé, obsolete, old hat, given the availability and dominance of RTR. If you still enjoy building models, I’d like to hear from you. If you like buying RTR cars you certainly can respond.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
dknelsonWhat I am getting at here (slowly, as is my custom) is that to my way of thinking RTR versus shake the box versus complex modern plastic versus true craftsman kits is NOT a differentiator between types of modelers or the abilities or seriousness of those modelers, but more to why that particular car was purchased and what "need" the purchaser was filling when they bought it. The need for a particular car or type of car to be on the layout NOW. The need to occupy time in an enjoyable challenge. There are many such "needs" -- and again, not needs at all but "wants." If building complex kits keeps you from accomplishing other important goals on the layout then you have made a decision I won 't argue with, but you have seemingly placed the layout second. Some guys place the layout first, some don't.
Dave,
Well said. You have to be conscious of what your priorities are. If it's to build kits, well then do that. But the realities of time mean that unless your layout is limited to more modest proportions, you need to commit significant time to building the layout if you want it to be satisfying and operational.
That's why kits are very seductive for some, without them realizing it. No matter how complex, a kit usually has directions, a plan (not all, but most). A layout isn't like that, unless you've drawn up your own detailed plans as some do, and even then it's not like the straightforward nature of kit directions. So what do modelers often do? They reach for the security of a good kit build and avoid the somewhat more complex task of what to do next on the layout.
Nothing wrong with either, but it's just a psychological observation about what used to be a somewhat fraught and frustrating situation for me until I figured it out for myself and achieved a new comfort level with my prioritization of tasks.
It would be nice if a bluebox 50 foot boxcar would fit in the box it came in after it was built.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Me too. And, similar to kit building is fixing up some trainshow RTR with paint, decals, grab irons, stirrups, brake rigging, and whatever. Tinkering is fun.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I started out building kits back in the 1950's as a teenager when I first got into model railroading, and I've kept on for the past 60 odd years. However, now close to my mid-seventies, my close-up eyesight just ain't what it used to be (oddly enough, my 'far' sight is excellent, which still lets me work as a musician), so a kit with lots of tiny parts is a little beyond me, now. Instead of an Intermountain or Red Caboose (or Athearn metal, Silver Streak or Ambroid back in the day, lol), my kits tend to be of the Accurail or Bowser variety as far as difficulty. So now, it's about 50-50 between "shake the box" and RTR. But with me, it was always about Getting the Right Freight Car, not neccessarily how difficult (or easy) it was to build.
But I'm still having fun, and that's the most important thing.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I stockpiled Kits for years before I started on my current layout in 2001.
My main focus was an Operational Layout and I began OPs Session in the fall of 2001 with just 2 TOWNS.
We wanted to checkout how the track layout was and I quickly put together a number of basic kits to get things going!
Fast and easy!
As the layout progressed - I added more track and towns and the need for more cars was required (the layout now covers over 2500 sq ft)!
Again into my stockpile of kits and the layout was again populated to keep up with the every two week OPs Sessions.
By 2008 I had over 3000 feet of track down but had long since run out of Blue Box & MDC kits.
I began buying Bowser 100 ton Hopper kits by the case and any of the Accurail kits that fit my Era of the 75 - 85 time period.
Soon I had all of the kits everyone made and the need for more cars was required - the Kits were nowhere to be found but the Walthers Catalogs had lots of the proper Era cars RTR - so it was a no brainer as I keep the OPs Sessions going and the RTR cars looked way better than what I had already on the layout.
I now have over 1200 cars and 80% are RTR and I keep replacing the older (Kit Cars) with the newer RTR cars that are WAY MORE Detailed than even the early RTR cars were.
Seeing as Operations is the Goal of the layout - and if the scenery gets done someday - Fine - It certaily doesn't make the trains run any better - so I feel my first piroity is to have good trackwork - Zero Derailments and ZERO Maintenance.
The RTR cars provides this and more - it makes me get out the scenery materials and spruce up the layout to keep up with the detailed RTR cars!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
Remember that say 20-30 years ago, most pre-decorated kits were pretty poorly done. You generally had to paint and decal the car yourself, or get custom decorated cars from say Bev-Bel (who would buy undec kits from Athearn or MDC etc. and decorate them.) In recent years, not only are there many more RTR cars than there used to be, but now even relatively cheap cars and engines have 'state of the art' decoration. Compare a decorated Athearn bluebox caboose of today to one from c.1990 and the new one has a much more complete and correct decoration. So...the need for undec cars isn't as great as it once was. I still like to 'roll my own', partly because I freelance and have custom made decals for my railroad, but if a car I like is available RTR I'll buy it if it's not too expensive.
steemtrayn It would be nice if a bluebox 50 foot boxcar would fit in the box it came in after it was built.
That's probably water over the bridge, now...
On the other hand, at least the RTR cars do fit back in their box, so that's "progress" of a sort.
For me it depends on the kit and the RTR. I don't mind spending time on a unique car, but if my route has more than 3 of them and I can find them as RTR, RTR it is. It also depends on how much justice I can do to the car building it.
I still haven't worked up the nerve to build the 16" Navy Gun Flat yet.
My first choice for freight cars is a kit, but I've made RTR exceptions. Examples are an Athearn caboose, a Walthers snowplow and a Walthers depressed center flat car. I'm currently building / rebuilding a couple of kit cabooses, one an Athearn BB and one a Roundhouse. The Athearn was used and someone drilled lamp holes in the side and I decided to fill them and repaint. And the old Roundhouse had an awful UP paint job. While doing this, I've noted the detail on the RTR UP Athearn and it is impressive in comparison; e.g., silver painted windows trim, windows, red painted (molded on) handrails. So there are definite pro's & con's.
On passenger cars, I've bought more RTRs, Walthers UP streamliners and MOW cars. The Athearn heavyweights I acquired and re-did are the simplest of kits; i.e, add the floor, couplers, trucks and handwheel and it's done (unless adding lighting).
To me it's more of a preference than an economic issue, though the time requirement is also a key item before retirement.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
A kit that is within my capabilities may capture my attention just as eaily as a R-T-R item, and vice versa. Then the questions will have to do with accuracy, price, suitability for my needs, etc. The material might be brass, plastic, plaster, wood, resin, or something else. There are lots of options, and the "kit vs. R-T-R" question is just one of many possibilities to consider. R-T-R items can go right onto the layout, thus allowing more time to devote to tracklaying, wiring, and other tasks that can't be easily addressed by R-T-R products. But R-T-R often costs more, and that's something we all have to consider.
Like many others, I do what suits my needs and my fancy.
I love to build kits - everything from the Athearn BB kits which I upgrade a bit with metal wheels, Kadees and recommended weight, to Kaslo and Tichy which are kind of at the opposite end of the kit spectrum. Some of my favourite builds were the old Roundhouse 3 in 1 kits. I have built one older wood kit of a CP wood sided caboose but I wasn't pleased with how the wood fiber on the sides stood out despite sanding. Other than that the kit was great.
I also like to kitbash. I am currently working on a fleet of BB cabooses which will have all the molded on grabs replaced with wire, working marker lights and of course the aforementioned Kadees and Intermountain metal wheels. I also have four Russel snow plows, two of which will be bashed into double track plows and the other two will be turned into CP shorties.
To add a little spice I also do some scratchbuilding of things like the critter in my avatar and service vehicles like a Hirail maintenance truck and a "Goose" freight railcar.
However, I have purchased RTR rolling stock when they show up on eBay at reasonable prices, particularly if they have a Canadian theme.
Its all fun or I wouldn't do it! (Ground breaking statement eh?!)
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Indeed..I found both Roundhouse and Accurail fits their boxes when built.
Never figured out why Athearn wouldn't unless you removed the KD coupler.
I'm 22 years old and prefer kits. But yeah, I will buy RTR if it is something I cannot find a kit for.
(My Model Railroad, My Rules)
These are the opinions of an under 35 , from the east end of, and modeling, the same section of the Wheeling and Lake Erie railway. As well as a freelanced road (Austinville and Dynamite City railroad).
So far, it seem to be a nice friendly conversation we're having here, let's keep it up. I like working on my layout, as there are plenty of challanges there, too. It is done enough so I can operate. However getting to a completion point is not a strong goal I have and it may not happen before I quit, kick the bucket; or, am unable to. It's just not that important to me. My goals have always been to be down in the shop or on the layout working on something I'm having fun doing. However, I have absolutly no problem with others having completely different ideas about what's important. Who am I, to think my way is the right (only) way?
I have both. I enjoy building kits, but as others have said, sometimes R-T-R offers something not available, reasonably priced, in a kit. I have only done a couple of more complicated kits, but hope to do a few more, with an improved tool collection and more time available.
There are times that you can take a kit with you to work on, when away from the layout.
I have a friend with some compromised use of his hands. Simple kits he enjoys doing, but the more complex ones do not fair well, so he seldom even considers them. For those of us who enjoy kit building and have the time, they are fun. For those folks with limited time or ability, the R-T-R's are often the best solution.
I think they both have merit, with your personal preference being the deciding factor.
Have fun,
Richard
I like kits, depending upon how the kit is manufactured, the final level of detail, and the instructions. For example, the P2K kits were very well designed, went together well, had a high level of detail when completed, and had good instructions. On the other hand, I have a couple Funero kits that will probably never be started. I look at them from time to time, but the instructions are very poor. I don't need that frustration.
I have a bunch of Athearn and Roundhouse kits that will probably never be built, and I'd like to sell them off. This is because I only have need for so many cars and at this point in my life I'd rather have one nicely detailed car than four hardly or coarsely detailed car. (most of us have more cars than we need, anyway) Of course, I have a simple around the walls layout that is chest high so I can see the detail. My viewpoint is more 1 foot rule than 3 foot rule.
Wood kits were discussed in the other thread, so I will only say here that they were okay for their time, which has long passed except in cases where a modern replacement is not available. They can be made to look very good, but there is no way that a Ambroid covered hopper can be made to look as good as a recent Athearn covered hopper which comes with etched roof walks, rivets, fine metal grabs, and so forth. Unless one purchases all those extra items to add to the wood kit, at which point it becomes not cost effective to do so.
From memory I've built only two, what I would call craftsman kits, resin from F&C, just for the fun of if. Most of the freight cars I run are really just quick assembly jobs of simple kits from Athearn, Roundhouse & the like.
Recently I've taken off in a new, but allied direction from my late 1940's transition era modeling interest to now include some freight, passenger cars, using two steamers I had already that suit the turn of last centuary interest I have started to enjoy. Short lines with mixed trains.
This has meant that I have needed to buy some freight cars that were used during that time. These have been easy enough to get hold of with most coming from eBay. But it's been quite a while since I bought any freight cars & so I was not prepared for the big prices sellers are asking for the simple assembly kits from, usually, Roundhouse who seem to have a good selection of the cars I need.
But back to the OP: I'm shame faced enought to admit that the less factory style of repititious production line processes I can do the better I like it. I view these type of cars more as assembly rather than building a kit.
But many of the modeling projects I do enjoy are the ones where I need to tear down a model to more or less its basic constituency as part of the job needed to run, usually, a road specific passenger car(s). In this I find Blue Print models to be the most challenging & bring me to the outer limits of my modeling skills.
Dusty
BRAKIE steemtrayn It would be nice if a bluebox 50 foot boxcar would fit in the box it came in after it was built. Indeed..I found both Roundhouse and Accurail fits their boxes when built. Never figured out why Athearn wouldn't unless you removed the KD coupler.
What I do is save all my boxes from all the kits and then put 40' cars no matter who they are made by in the Athearn Short Boxes and 50' cars in the MDC, Accurail, and Branchline Boxes that can handle the 50' cars with Extended Draft Gear and Couplers.
I find scratchbuilding with wood, cars and structures, to be the most satisfying and fun.
2nd are wood craftsman kits.
3rd are plastic kits
4th are screwdriver kits.
OTOH what I want most is an operating layout. So I have lots of RTR - as much as I can find. And truth be told, a lot of the modern plastic RTR is better than the wood stuff - not that this will stop me from using wood stuff on the layout.
Once the layout is operational, then I'll start building more cars and structures. I have a big stash of kits and scratch/parts building supplies - in 3 scales yet. While I plan to build all the kits in all 3 scales - realistically that probably won't happen. Of course I migh have a better chance of it if I didn't keep buying kits faster than I can build them.
In the end, my layout(s?) will have a combination of RTR and all the types of kits out there. I even have some resin kits although I have yet to build one.
But, hey it's all fun.
Enjoy