CTValleyRRThis is pushing dangerously close to a "you're not a real model railroader unless..." thread. I don' t think you can categorize model railroaders. We are who we are, we all have our skills and tastes, and that's fine.
Actually there are several different groups of modelers but,there;s nothing new about that since its been around as long as I can remember.
Sorry to say I've met the worst of the lot thankfully that lot seems to be insufficient in the grand scheme of the hobby..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Big Boy ForeverI knew some people would take offense, it's inevitable, "you can't catergorize me" and "that's elitism", that's just how it goes, even though I made it clear that "satisfaction" of the model railroader was the deciding factor, and that it was a broad big picture, lacking sub groups.
I wasn't taking offense, just pointed out how artificial the whole scheme was. I'm not sure what point setting up arbitrary categories then asking people to pick or stick to one serves.
Richard was wondering where this thread will be after he gets back from a trip on the NG. Pretty much the same arguments about what category to stick people in I suspect.
As for the NMRA being elitist, come on now. All you have to do is send in your money and join. There no ceremony, secret induction, or introductions needed. You're welcome to come as you are to enjoy model railroading, get advice, construction experience, operate on others layouts, and generally share our love of the hobby.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Darn and doggone it. After all these years, I seem to fit best in the anachronistic and contrarian categories. Since I keep building and rebuilding about every ten years, on average ( all the while slipping a bit further behind in technology), the current version still has some Plastville structures intermixed with kit bashed and scratch built ones. The track plan dates back to 1959, and comes from a heavily panned publication-yet runs a bit beter each time my skills improve. The closer visitors look, the more visual puns and quirkiness they find, each one slipped into settings that while not prototype , are inspired and adapted from bits and pieces of the real world that have been mushed together within the constraints of my existing space.
Construction techniques include foam, paperboard, paper mache, hard shell and anything else I can blend in. Goal is not to win awards-though external validation, whenever offered is always welcome- but to create just a small amount of delight in a world that has more than enough stresses and rough spots to bother almost all but the most hardy.
Best philosophical bumper sticker that I have ever seen: " Being grown up is highly overrated-PLAY WITH TRAINS"
The more ways that people can enjoy and find satisfaction within the hobby, the more the precious parts of the hobby will thrive.
Don H.
Are we having fun yet? I think I will go move those gons of U ore down to Placerville from Paradox with old K-27 #453, hit the stand pipe at Naturita for a big gulp, pick up the single box on the siding there and get back in time to see where this thread is then.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
up831 Hey! What's wrong with Plasticville?!?! :)
Hey! What's wrong with Plasticville?!?! :)
Nothing !
jmbjmb I think the "failure to communicate" is people are seeing this as a progressive scale with 1 being bad and 5 being good. But I believe you meant these were five different and equally valid approaches. People really want to rank things and set up a scale, even when it's not the right answers.
I think the "failure to communicate" is people are seeing this as a progressive scale with 1 being bad and 5 being good. But I believe you meant these were five different and equally valid approaches. People really want to rank things and set up a scale, even when it's not the right answers.
Thank You !
You understand the intent. "Different approaches to Model Railroading", Lionel 3 rail to Craftsman and sub groups.
People tend to jump to their own conclusions based on their own prejudices and personal bias.
Perhaps we could have a Jeff Foxworthy style thread. "You might be a model railroader if......."
Jim (with a nod to Mies Van Der Rohe)
ACY Big Boy Forever: How many model railroaders are there? Give me whatever number you choose. That's the number of model railroad hobbies there are, so that's the number of categories you need. Your 5-stage scale is linear, but a complete picture of the many model railroad hobbies is multidimensional. There are folks who are heavily into a particular road, a particular era, or a particular type of equipment. I once knew a guy who was so into 4-8-4's that Northern were the only locos he would buy. There are those who are fascinated by freight cars and little else. Painting experts who let others do the construction. Clubs benefit when they find one person who loves layout design, and another who loves wiring or trackwork. Prototype research is another valuable interest that benefits the guy who does it, as well as everybody else (so long as he shared his findings). All of us are all of these things and more, but to varying degrees. While creating a rankings system may be kind of fun, it doesn't really provide much useful information, and it can make for some divisiveness if we let it. In quite another context, the French say "Vive la difference!"
Big Boy Forever:
How many model railroaders are there? Give me whatever number you choose. That's the number of model railroad hobbies there are, so that's the number of categories you need.
Your 5-stage scale is linear, but a complete picture of the many model railroad hobbies is multidimensional. There are folks who are heavily into a particular road, a particular era, or a particular type of equipment. I once knew a guy who was so into 4-8-4's that Northern were the only locos he would buy. There are those who are fascinated by freight cars and little else. Painting experts who let others do the construction. Clubs benefit when they find one person who loves layout design, and another who loves wiring or trackwork. Prototype research is another valuable interest that benefits the guy who does it, as well as everybody else (so long as he shared his findings). All of us are all of these things and more, but to varying degrees. While creating a rankings system may be kind of fun, it doesn't really provide much useful information, and it can make for some divisiveness if we let it.
In quite another context, the French say "Vive la difference!"
Right!
Like I have said several times now, "there are Sub Groups".
Bayfield Transfer Railway Big Boy Forever Geezsh ! Let me repeat again: "I knew some people would take offense, it's inevitable, "you can't categorize me" and "that's elitism", that's just how it goes, even though I made it clear that "satisfaction" of the model railroader was the deciding factor, and that it was a broad big picture, lacking sub groups. IT'S A BROAD BIG PICTURE LACKING SUB GROUPS"---that means, that not every group and category is highlighted...it's BROAD, that means WIDE. and like the other poster said, NMRA has it's own certifications and categories, so categorizing is nothing new, and no big deal. This is the Internet.TRAINZ U R DOIN IT RONG!!!
Big Boy Forever Geezsh ! Let me repeat again: "I knew some people would take offense, it's inevitable, "you can't categorize me" and "that's elitism", that's just how it goes, even though I made it clear that "satisfaction" of the model railroader was the deciding factor, and that it was a broad big picture, lacking sub groups. IT'S A BROAD BIG PICTURE LACKING SUB GROUPS"---that means, that not every group and category is highlighted...it's BROAD, that means WIDE. and like the other poster said, NMRA has it's own certifications and categories, so categorizing is nothing new, and no big deal.
Geezsh !
Let me repeat again:
"I knew some people would take offense, it's inevitable, "you can't categorize me" and "that's elitism", that's just how it goes, even though I made it clear that "satisfaction" of the model railroader was the deciding factor, and that it was a broad big picture, lacking sub groups.
IT'S A BROAD BIG PICTURE LACKING SUB GROUPS"---that means, that not every group and category is highlighted...it's BROAD, that means WIDE.
and like the other poster said, NMRA has it's own certifications and categories, so categorizing is nothing new, and no big deal.
This is the Internet.TRAINZ U R DOIN IT RONG!!!
I had to use BOLD to emphasize the points which are bypassed and ignored.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
This is pushing dangerously close to a "you're not a real model railroader unless..." thread. I don' t think you can categorize model railroaders. We are who we are, we all have our skills and tastes, and that's fine.
take me, for example. My current layout is slightly bigger than a 4x8. The scenery is as detailed and realistic as I can make it, yet there are puffball trees, sedum florets, and even a few commercial trees in the mix. My layout is essentially a large loop, yet I am not happy with trains that just go in circles. They have to do things, but I'm not a stickler for realistic operations either. My structures are all weathered and painted,but 75% of them are built right out of the box with no modification. Everything on my layout is of the right prototype and era, yet I'm not a huge stickler for exact matches to prototypical appearance or configuration. And while I do the best work I can, I don't aspire to "level up", as the OP's categories would seem to suggest.
Compare that to my uncle, who has probably 800 square feet of layout, an intricate track plan, dozens of locos and probably several hundred cars,and hyper-realistic operations, without a speck of scenery to be seen. Or a friend of mine, on whose layout every structure is intricately scratchbuilt and highly detailed, with superb paint jobs, while his track plan and scenery is right out of a Tyco set.
We defy classification. Our railroads, our rules!
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Big Boy Forever Just as a matter of casual discussion: It seems that there are different satisfaction categories of model Railroaders. (1) In my case, as many others, I had a Lionel 3 rail train as a kid, with the flagman who popped out of a shack when the train went by, and a RR crossing that dropped at Mach 1 when the train came by. The pedestrians and cars had no chance of escape. that's one category, and one some people like even today. (2) Then there is the grass mat and plasticville layout, maybe 4 X 8 or a little larger, with un-painted track, stock scenery like woodland scenics out of the bag, stock locos and rolling stock. (3) Next is the more realistic modeler who weathers cars and locos, tries to get more realistic than the plasticville layout. (4) Then the super-detailer who takes painstaking effort to get every little detail right on the train equipment, more accurate scenery and even focusing on the lettering and text of an era, including the culture of the layout time period. (5) The ultimate modeler, is the "Craftsman", who spares no expense or time getting a miniature movie set quality layout, amazing dioramas, which can fool the eye to think that the scene is real life in every detail, super artist, and engineering fanatic. (DCC) Of course, now the DCC technology adds more realism to any level layout. In general, this is what I've observed for what it's worth. Feel free to add your own opinions.
Just as a matter of casual discussion:
It seems that there are different satisfaction categories of model Railroaders.
(1) In my case, as many others, I had a Lionel 3 rail train as a kid, with the flagman who popped out of a shack when the train went by, and a RR crossing that dropped at Mach 1 when the train came by. The pedestrians and cars had no chance of escape. that's one category, and one some people like even today.
(2) Then there is the grass mat and plasticville layout, maybe 4 X 8 or a little larger, with un-painted track, stock scenery like woodland scenics out of the bag, stock locos and rolling stock.
(3) Next is the more realistic modeler who weathers cars and locos, tries to get more realistic than the plasticville layout.
(4) Then the super-detailer who takes painstaking effort to get every little detail right on the train equipment, more accurate scenery and even focusing on the lettering and text of an era, including the culture of the layout time period.
(5) The ultimate modeler, is the "Craftsman", who spares no expense or time getting a miniature movie set quality layout, amazing dioramas, which can fool the eye to think that the scene is real life in every detail, super artist, and engineering fanatic.
(DCC) Of course, now the DCC technology adds more realism to any level layout.
In general, this is what I've observed for what it's worth.
Feel free to add your own opinions.
Where do I fit?
Craftsmen-no way no how..
The grass mat and plasticville layout type?
Nope never was one of those modelers.
Next is the more realistic modeler who weathers cars and locos, tries to get more realistic than the plasticville layout:
Close but,no cigar.
Then the super-detailer who takes painstaking effort to get every little detail right on the train equipment, more accurate scenery and even focusing on the lettering and text of an era, including the culture of the layout time period.
Nope not exactly here either.
I guess I'm the odd fellow..I want my ISLs to be believable without going to the extreme.
Cars,locomotives and vehicles must match the era.I follow the prototype as closely as I can when planing the track work.
I am not above using Woodlawn Scenics ready made trees,running unweathered cars,nor am I above buying certain things prebuilt and RTR cars.I'm not above painting and decaling a car or locomotive either.I love common sense modeling.
I won't run a engine without handrails and won't settle for anything less then 100% derailment free operation.
I loathe loop running,building and wiring..I enjoy doing scenery and super detailing the layout.
I love prototypical operation and studying railroads above all other hobby activities.
So,I'm not exactly sure where I stand in the grand scheme..
Of course it is never as clear cut as this. What about the beautiful layout filled with great modeling both in rolling stock and structures all put together by a guy who is an NMRA MMR that is never run - I know of at least one -- versus a largely RTR layout that is run constantly with a large crew of operators?
Sophistication of wiring. The existence of an operating signal system. What role do those play?
And how would you compare a layout with handlaid track, scratchbuilt rolling stock, wonderful scenery -- but the trains just run round and round -- versus a Lionel or American Flyer layout that is intensely operated with completely accurate paperwork for Timetable and Train Order operation, on an actual timetable? And yes I know of at least one of those too.
I think the more interesting progression is not comparing this modeler to that modeler, but what does an individual modeler do to evolve and how do they do it, and what time frame? And sometimes the evolution in an individual has less to do with their modeling, or what they own and run, but in their increasing sophistication and expert knowledge as a railfan.
Dave Nelson
cedarwoodron Elitism? The NMRA has a master modeler program that, upon sufficient performance and evaluation, results in a "certificated" competency document. That surely can be considered "elitism", as one must first pay a fee to join and participate; then exhibit the requisite skill level to be evaluated and thereby obtain an award in a particular modeling category. Not all of us can afford to join the NMRA, and I have a feeling that many high-quality modelers are not members, given their membership totals as a percentage of the approximate total number of active model railroaders, yet they do not hold a certificate themselves. Basically, some know more than others, have more modeling expertise and experience. I'm glad those fellows are around and share their knowledge, as I learn from them constantly. One final thought- it IS a hobby, not a professional vocation, so why worry! Cedarwoodron
Elitism? The NMRA has a master modeler program that, upon sufficient performance and evaluation, results in a "certificated" competency document. That surely can be considered "elitism", as one must first pay a fee to join and participate; then exhibit the requisite skill level to be evaluated and thereby obtain an award in a particular modeling category.
Not all of us can afford to join the NMRA, and I have a feeling that many high-quality modelers are not members, given their membership totals as a percentage of the approximate total number of active model railroaders, yet they do not hold a certificate themselves.
Basically, some know more than others, have more modeling expertise and experience. I'm glad those fellows are around and share their knowledge, as I learn from them constantly.
One final thought- it IS a hobby, not a professional vocation, so why worry!
Cedarwoodron
Damn Elitist NMRA....(lol)
Maybe it's just a hobby to some but consider this, "Rod Stewart" big time Rock Star, and Model Railroader, said,about his layout in Model RR magazine, and recognition from other Model railroaders:
"it means more to me than the cover of Rolling Stone". (magazine).
http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/toys-in-the-attic-rod-stewart.aspx
I think model RR can be a hobby and also an Art / Engineering endeavor. Some model RRs have been used in movies and there is something special about this "hobby", but maybe I'm just prejudiced.
RideOnRoad richhotrain You are missing a category between #2 and #3. Once you get beyond the grass and Plasticville buildings, not everyone weathers locos, rolling stock and structures nor do all of us paint our track. But we build some pretty nice layouts with structures painted in detail, ballasted track, believable back drops, and all the rest. Rich I am an aspiring 2 1/2'er. (As in I am aspiring to be a 2 1/2.)
richhotrain You are missing a category between #2 and #3. Once you get beyond the grass and Plasticville buildings, not everyone weathers locos, rolling stock and structures nor do all of us paint our track. But we build some pretty nice layouts with structures painted in detail, ballasted track, believable back drops, and all the rest. Rich
You are missing a category between #2 and #3.
Once you get beyond the grass and Plasticville buildings, not everyone weathers locos, rolling stock and structures nor do all of us paint our track.
But we build some pretty nice layouts with structures painted in detail, ballasted track, believable back drops, and all the rest.
Rich
I am an aspiring 2 1/2'er. (As in I am aspiring to be a 2 1/2.)
Alton Junction
Back when I was a kid I read "Brakeman on the Yellow Extra" by Bruce Chubb. I knew at that moment that OPERATIONS was what this hobby was about.*
My last layout ran with DCC under timetable and train orders using the 1986 General Code of Operating Rules, the last edition to feature train orders.*You are entitled to a contrary opinion, but, of course, you're wrong.
Big Boy Forever I knew some people would take offense, it's inevitable, "you can't catergorize me" and "that's elitism", that's just how it goes, even though I made it clear that "satisfaction" of the model railroader was the deciding factor, and that it was a broad big picture, lacking sub groups.
I knew some people would take offense, it's inevitable, "you can't catergorize me" and "that's elitism", that's just how it goes, even though I made it clear that "satisfaction" of the model railroader was the deciding factor, and that it was a broad big picture, lacking sub groups.
That's it !
I hereby demand that the OP create a #2.5 category.
Having returned to the hobby yet once again (and for good,) I have trouble with #3. Many of us are above #2, but while we don't all weather our cars and locos we do strive to be more than "Plasticville" modelers.
I am generally content with my rolling stock out of the box, as long as it runs well and gives me no problems. However, I do kitbash and paint/weather (usually dry brush) most of my structures. And I am building this for my pleasure only.
I recently retired and we moved into a manufactured home with a room large enough for me to construct a layout that is basically a 6x14 "twice around." I know no one in the area who is a model railroader, so whatever I do is soley for myself. When I began the benchwork, pushing 70 years of age, I thought I just wanted someplace to watch the traines go round-and-round. Then I realized that this is called MODEL RAILROADING. And I still wanted to model! I don't care if the buildings, scenery, etc., look real, as long as I am happy with them.
I am trying, in my mind, to create an illusion of time, space and reality. If I can please myself, the layout which I began in 1960 will be a success.
RAILROADING.
Pretty much all these characterization and classifications fail unless they are extremely broad. There are dozens of different dimensions of modeling aspects and no asbolute scales to measure where somebody lies on any of those scales. Another fourm had a similar thread and after over 100 posts was nowhere closer to any concensus defining the terms under consideration.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
While I agree with the sentiment of others that we shouldn't attempt to classify other model railroaders, I will admit to getting annoyed when someone finds out what I do and I get the response "oh, so is my dad, he's got a huge collection of Lionel stuff up in the attic... almost all of it in the original boxes". I don't even bother trying to explain the difference any more.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Interesting thread!
In going with the OP's list, I think that I fall somewhere between #3 and #4 or perhaps, a "3.5"! If I refer to Cedarwoodron's list than I'd consider myself a "Tradesman", Journeyman Operator, Journeyman Designer.
I enjoy taking models and sprucing them up to look more prototypical. Light to moderate weathering. However, I also freelance and don't have to have units that match the prototype down to the last bolt. For layouts I want realistic looking mainline track (Code 83) and simplified signaling (2-aspect).
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
I think your hierarchy list is an example of the elitism of a small group of model railroaders who feel that their way is the only way. Another example of the old topic "Who's a REAL model railroader"
There are many people who enjoy collecting and operating Toy Trains. Many of them create elaborate layouts as well to recapture the toy train layouts of Lionel, American Flyer, etc. of years gone by.
There are many people trying to recreate railroad operations on fairly large layouts who have neither the time or inclination to super detail or create movie/museum dioramas.
There are many people who enjoy building models without having to do hours of research.
The list goes on and on.
There are even people who enjoy more than one way of model railroading.
The "ultimate modeler" is the one who is having fun with trains. Even if that's a Tyco train set running through Plasticville on a grass mat.
As usual just my waiting for change
Paul