Big Boy Forever I knew some people would take offense, it's inevitable, "you can't catergorize me" and "that's elitism", that's just how it goes, even though I made it clear that "satisfaction" of the model railroader was the deciding factor, and that it was a broad big picture, lacking sub groups.
I knew some people would take offense, it's inevitable, "you can't catergorize me" and "that's elitism", that's just how it goes, even though I made it clear that "satisfaction" of the model railroader was the deciding factor, and that it was a broad big picture, lacking sub groups.
Rich
Alton Junction
Back when I was a kid I read "Brakeman on the Yellow Extra" by Bruce Chubb. I knew at that moment that OPERATIONS was what this hobby was about.*
My last layout ran with DCC under timetable and train orders using the 1986 General Code of Operating Rules, the last edition to feature train orders.*You are entitled to a contrary opinion, but, of course, you're wrong.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
richhotrain You are missing a category between #2 and #3. Once you get beyond the grass and Plasticville buildings, not everyone weathers locos, rolling stock and structures nor do all of us paint our track. But we build some pretty nice layouts with structures painted in detail, ballasted track, believable back drops, and all the rest. Rich
You are missing a category between #2 and #3.
Once you get beyond the grass and Plasticville buildings, not everyone weathers locos, rolling stock and structures nor do all of us paint our track.
But we build some pretty nice layouts with structures painted in detail, ballasted track, believable back drops, and all the rest.
I am an aspiring 2 1/2'er. (As in I am aspiring to be a 2 1/2.)
Richard
RideOnRoad richhotrain You are missing a category between #2 and #3. Once you get beyond the grass and Plasticville buildings, not everyone weathers locos, rolling stock and structures nor do all of us paint our track. But we build some pretty nice layouts with structures painted in detail, ballasted track, believable back drops, and all the rest. Rich I am an aspiring 2 1/2'er. (As in I am aspiring to be a 2 1/2.)
Big Boy Forever Just as a matter of casual discussion: It seems that there are different satisfaction categories of model Railroaders. (1) In my case, as many others, I had a Lionel 3 rail train as a kid, with the flagman who popped out of a shack when the train went by, and a RR crossing that dropped at Mach 1 when the train came by. The pedestrians and cars had no chance of escape. that's one category, and one some people like even today. (2) Then there is the grass mat and plasticville layout, maybe 4 X 8 or a little larger, with un-painted track, stock scenery like woodland scenics out of the bag, stock locos and rolling stock. (3) Next is the more realistic modeler who weathers cars and locos, tries to get more realistic than the plasticville layout. (4) Then the super-detailer who takes painstaking effort to get every little detail right on the train equipment, more accurate scenery and even focusing on the lettering and text of an era, including the culture of the layout time period. (5) The ultimate modeler, is the "Craftsman", who spares no expense or time getting a miniature movie set quality layout, amazing dioramas, which can fool the eye to think that the scene is real life in every detail, super artist, and engineering fanatic. (DCC) Of course, now the DCC technology adds more realism to any level layout. In general, this is what I've observed for what it's worth. Feel free to add your own opinions.
Just as a matter of casual discussion:
It seems that there are different satisfaction categories of model Railroaders.
(1) In my case, as many others, I had a Lionel 3 rail train as a kid, with the flagman who popped out of a shack when the train went by, and a RR crossing that dropped at Mach 1 when the train came by. The pedestrians and cars had no chance of escape. that's one category, and one some people like even today.
(2) Then there is the grass mat and plasticville layout, maybe 4 X 8 or a little larger, with un-painted track, stock scenery like woodland scenics out of the bag, stock locos and rolling stock.
(3) Next is the more realistic modeler who weathers cars and locos, tries to get more realistic than the plasticville layout.
(4) Then the super-detailer who takes painstaking effort to get every little detail right on the train equipment, more accurate scenery and even focusing on the lettering and text of an era, including the culture of the layout time period.
(5) The ultimate modeler, is the "Craftsman", who spares no expense or time getting a miniature movie set quality layout, amazing dioramas, which can fool the eye to think that the scene is real life in every detail, super artist, and engineering fanatic.
(DCC) Of course, now the DCC technology adds more realism to any level layout.
In general, this is what I've observed for what it's worth.
Feel free to add your own opinions.
Elitism? The NMRA has a master modeler program that, upon sufficient performance and evaluation, results in a "certificated" competency document. That surely can be considered "elitism", as one must first pay a fee to join and participate; then exhibit the requisite skill level to be evaluated and thereby obtain an award in a particular modeling category.
Not all of us can afford to join the NMRA, and I have a feeling that many high-quality modelers are not members, given their membership totals as a percentage of the approximate total number of active model railroaders, yet they do not hold a certificate themselves.
Basically, some know more than others, have more modeling expertise and experience. I'm glad those fellows are around and share their knowledge, as I learn from them constantly.
One final thought- it IS a hobby, not a professional vocation, so why worry!
Cedarwoodron
cedarwoodron Elitism? The NMRA has a master modeler program that, upon sufficient performance and evaluation, results in a "certificated" competency document. That surely can be considered "elitism", as one must first pay a fee to join and participate; then exhibit the requisite skill level to be evaluated and thereby obtain an award in a particular modeling category. Not all of us can afford to join the NMRA, and I have a feeling that many high-quality modelers are not members, given their membership totals as a percentage of the approximate total number of active model railroaders, yet they do not hold a certificate themselves. Basically, some know more than others, have more modeling expertise and experience. I'm glad those fellows are around and share their knowledge, as I learn from them constantly. One final thought- it IS a hobby, not a professional vocation, so why worry! Cedarwoodron
Damn Elitist NMRA....(lol)
Maybe it's just a hobby to some but consider this, "Rod Stewart" big time Rock Star, and Model Railroader, said,about his layout in Model RR magazine, and recognition from other Model railroaders:
"it means more to me than the cover of Rolling Stone". (magazine).
http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/toys-in-the-attic-rod-stewart.aspx
I think model RR can be a hobby and also an Art / Engineering endeavor. Some model RRs have been used in movies and there is something special about this "hobby", but maybe I'm just prejudiced.
Of course it is never as clear cut as this. What about the beautiful layout filled with great modeling both in rolling stock and structures all put together by a guy who is an NMRA MMR that is never run - I know of at least one -- versus a largely RTR layout that is run constantly with a large crew of operators?
Sophistication of wiring. The existence of an operating signal system. What role do those play?
And how would you compare a layout with handlaid track, scratchbuilt rolling stock, wonderful scenery -- but the trains just run round and round -- versus a Lionel or American Flyer layout that is intensely operated with completely accurate paperwork for Timetable and Train Order operation, on an actual timetable? And yes I know of at least one of those too.
I think the more interesting progression is not comparing this modeler to that modeler, but what does an individual modeler do to evolve and how do they do it, and what time frame? And sometimes the evolution in an individual has less to do with their modeling, or what they own and run, but in their increasing sophistication and expert knowledge as a railfan.
Dave Nelson
Where do I fit?
Craftsmen-no way no how..
The grass mat and plasticville layout type?
Nope never was one of those modelers.
Next is the more realistic modeler who weathers cars and locos, tries to get more realistic than the plasticville layout:
Close but,no cigar.
Then the super-detailer who takes painstaking effort to get every little detail right on the train equipment, more accurate scenery and even focusing on the lettering and text of an era, including the culture of the layout time period.
Nope not exactly here either.
I guess I'm the odd fellow..I want my ISLs to be believable without going to the extreme.
Cars,locomotives and vehicles must match the era.I follow the prototype as closely as I can when planing the track work.
I am not above using Woodlawn Scenics ready made trees,running unweathered cars,nor am I above buying certain things prebuilt and RTR cars.I'm not above painting and decaling a car or locomotive either.I love common sense modeling.
I won't run a engine without handrails and won't settle for anything less then 100% derailment free operation.
I loathe loop running,building and wiring..I enjoy doing scenery and super detailing the layout.
I love prototypical operation and studying railroads above all other hobby activities.
So,I'm not exactly sure where I stand in the grand scheme..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
This is pushing dangerously close to a "you're not a real model railroader unless..." thread. I don' t think you can categorize model railroaders. We are who we are, we all have our skills and tastes, and that's fine.
take me, for example. My current layout is slightly bigger than a 4x8. The scenery is as detailed and realistic as I can make it, yet there are puffball trees, sedum florets, and even a few commercial trees in the mix. My layout is essentially a large loop, yet I am not happy with trains that just go in circles. They have to do things, but I'm not a stickler for realistic operations either. My structures are all weathered and painted,but 75% of them are built right out of the box with no modification. Everything on my layout is of the right prototype and era, yet I'm not a huge stickler for exact matches to prototypical appearance or configuration. And while I do the best work I can, I don't aspire to "level up", as the OP's categories would seem to suggest.
Compare that to my uncle, who has probably 800 square feet of layout, an intricate track plan, dozens of locos and probably several hundred cars,and hyper-realistic operations, without a speck of scenery to be seen. Or a friend of mine, on whose layout every structure is intricately scratchbuilt and highly detailed, with superb paint jobs, while his track plan and scenery is right out of a Tyco set.
We defy classification. Our railroads, our rules!
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Geezsh !
Let me repeat again:
"I knew some people would take offense, it's inevitable, "you can't categorize me" and "that's elitism", that's just how it goes, even though I made it clear that "satisfaction" of the model railroader was the deciding factor, and that it was a broad big picture, lacking sub groups.
IT'S A BROAD BIG PICTURE LACKING SUB GROUPS"---that means, that not every group and category is highlighted...it's BROAD, that means WIDE.
and like the other poster said, NMRA has it's own certifications and categories, so categorizing is nothing new, and no big deal.
Big Boy Forever Geezsh ! Let me repeat again: "I knew some people would take offense, it's inevitable, "you can't categorize me" and "that's elitism", that's just how it goes, even though I made it clear that "satisfaction" of the model railroader was the deciding factor, and that it was a broad big picture, lacking sub groups. IT'S A BROAD BIG PICTURE LACKING SUB GROUPS"---that means, that not every group and category is highlighted...it's BROAD, that means WIDE. and like the other poster said, NMRA has it's own certifications and categories, so categorizing is nothing new, and no big deal.
This is the Internet.TRAINZ U R DOIN IT RONG!!!
Big Boy Forever:
How many model railroaders are there? Give me whatever number you choose. That's the number of model railroad hobbies there are, so that's the number of categories you need.
Your 5-stage scale is linear, but a complete picture of the many model railroad hobbies is multidimensional. There are folks who are heavily into a particular road, a particular era, or a particular type of equipment. I once knew a guy who was so into 4-8-4's that Northern were the only locos he would buy. There are those who are fascinated by freight cars and little else. Painting experts who let others do the construction. Clubs benefit when they find one person who loves layout design, and another who loves wiring or trackwork. Prototype research is another valuable interest that benefits the guy who does it, as well as everybody else (so long as he shared his findings). All of us are all of these things and more, but to varying degrees. While creating a rankings system may be kind of fun, it doesn't really provide much useful information, and it can make for some divisiveness if we let it.
In quite another context, the French say "Vive la difference!"
Bayfield Transfer Railway Big Boy Forever Geezsh ! Let me repeat again: "I knew some people would take offense, it's inevitable, "you can't categorize me" and "that's elitism", that's just how it goes, even though I made it clear that "satisfaction" of the model railroader was the deciding factor, and that it was a broad big picture, lacking sub groups. IT'S A BROAD BIG PICTURE LACKING SUB GROUPS"---that means, that not every group and category is highlighted...it's BROAD, that means WIDE. and like the other poster said, NMRA has it's own certifications and categories, so categorizing is nothing new, and no big deal. This is the Internet.TRAINZ U R DOIN IT RONG!!!
I had to use BOLD to emphasize the points which are bypassed and ignored.
ACY Big Boy Forever: How many model railroaders are there? Give me whatever number you choose. That's the number of model railroad hobbies there are, so that's the number of categories you need. Your 5-stage scale is linear, but a complete picture of the many model railroad hobbies is multidimensional. There are folks who are heavily into a particular road, a particular era, or a particular type of equipment. I once knew a guy who was so into 4-8-4's that Northern were the only locos he would buy. There are those who are fascinated by freight cars and little else. Painting experts who let others do the construction. Clubs benefit when they find one person who loves layout design, and another who loves wiring or trackwork. Prototype research is another valuable interest that benefits the guy who does it, as well as everybody else (so long as he shared his findings). All of us are all of these things and more, but to varying degrees. While creating a rankings system may be kind of fun, it doesn't really provide much useful information, and it can make for some divisiveness if we let it. In quite another context, the French say "Vive la difference!"
Right!
Like I have said several times now, "there are Sub Groups".
I think the "failure to communicate" is people are seeing this as a progressive scale with 1 being bad and 5 being good. But I believe you meant these were five different and equally valid approaches. People really want to rank things and set up a scale, even when it's not the right answers.
Hey! What's wrong with Plasticville?!?! :)
Perhaps we could have a Jeff Foxworthy style thread. "You might be a model railroader if......."
Jim (with a nod to Mies Van Der Rohe)
jmbjmb I think the "failure to communicate" is people are seeing this as a progressive scale with 1 being bad and 5 being good. But I believe you meant these were five different and equally valid approaches. People really want to rank things and set up a scale, even when it's not the right answers.
Thank You !
You understand the intent. "Different approaches to Model Railroading", Lionel 3 rail to Craftsman and sub groups.
People tend to jump to their own conclusions based on their own prejudices and personal bias.
up831 Hey! What's wrong with Plasticville?!?! :)
Nothing !
Are we having fun yet? I think I will go move those gons of U ore down to Placerville from Paradox with old K-27 #453, hit the stand pipe at Naturita for a big gulp, pick up the single box on the siding there and get back in time to see where this thread is then.
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
Darn and doggone it. After all these years, I seem to fit best in the anachronistic and contrarian categories. Since I keep building and rebuilding about every ten years, on average ( all the while slipping a bit further behind in technology), the current version still has some Plastville structures intermixed with kit bashed and scratch built ones. The track plan dates back to 1959, and comes from a heavily panned publication-yet runs a bit beter each time my skills improve. The closer visitors look, the more visual puns and quirkiness they find, each one slipped into settings that while not prototype , are inspired and adapted from bits and pieces of the real world that have been mushed together within the constraints of my existing space.
Construction techniques include foam, paperboard, paper mache, hard shell and anything else I can blend in. Goal is not to win awards-though external validation, whenever offered is always welcome- but to create just a small amount of delight in a world that has more than enough stresses and rough spots to bother almost all but the most hardy.
Best philosophical bumper sticker that I have ever seen: " Being grown up is highly overrated-PLAY WITH TRAINS"
The more ways that people can enjoy and find satisfaction within the hobby, the more the precious parts of the hobby will thrive.
Don H.
Big Boy ForeverI knew some people would take offense, it's inevitable, "you can't catergorize me" and "that's elitism", that's just how it goes, even though I made it clear that "satisfaction" of the model railroader was the deciding factor, and that it was a broad big picture, lacking sub groups.
I wasn't taking offense, just pointed out how artificial the whole scheme was. I'm not sure what point setting up arbitrary categories then asking people to pick or stick to one serves.
Richard was wondering where this thread will be after he gets back from a trip on the NG. Pretty much the same arguments about what category to stick people in I suspect.
As for the NMRA being elitist, come on now. All you have to do is send in your money and join. There no ceremony, secret induction, or introductions needed. You're welcome to come as you are to enjoy model railroading, get advice, construction experience, operate on others layouts, and generally share our love of the hobby.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
CTValleyRRThis is pushing dangerously close to a "you're not a real model railroader unless..." thread. I don' t think you can categorize model railroaders. We are who we are, we all have our skills and tastes, and that's fine.
Actually there are several different groups of modelers but,there;s nothing new about that since its been around as long as I can remember.
Sorry to say I've met the worst of the lot thankfully that lot seems to be insufficient in the grand scheme of the hobby..
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Once when you get beyond stage 2, does it become a matter of personal preference, budget and skill level? I accept the idea that perhaps we should be striving to improve, but not everyone has the needed resources.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
HaroldAOnce when you get beyond stage 2, does it become a matter of personal preference, budget and skill level?
Absolutely..I been saying that for years..Budget and skill level plays a larger part then most realized.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I accept the idea that perhaps we should be striving to improve, but not everyone has the needed resources.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I never bought into that idea some folks will never gain the needed skills,have no desire to learn unneeded skills (and there are many) or may have a physical handicap that limits their modeling abilities.
My advice is and will always remain find the areas you are good at and and hone those skills.
I have no idea how to wire a toggle switch but,I shine at realistic industrial scenery which is far more important to me then learning to wire a needless toggle switch on a 10-12' ISL.
OK I'll jump in here.
I started with Model Railroading when I discovered that toy trains like Lionel are too big and too expensive for mere mortals.
So I started with a type 2 layout grass mat and plasticville but soon discovered the limitations of that approach so I began covering the grass mat with ground cover roads etc. Bringing me to level 2.5 on what I call a learning layout. Since I promised my wife that I would not tear down the layout until the remodeling of the bathroom and den are done in 2016 or so I continue to use the layout as a learning tool.
I have no desire to do operations on the home layout but if and when I find a suitable club I have ops on the top of my list. Unfortunately I was unhappy with my test visit to my local club. I did not feel welcome so I did not join . However I am a member of The NMRA and find that to be worthwhile.
Next for me will be building structures. I have done a few already.
Joe Staten Island West
joe323 OK I'll jump in here. . I have no desire to do operations on the home layout but if and when I find a suitable club I have ops on the top of my list. Unfortunately I was unhappy with my test visit to my local club. I did not feel welcome so I did not join . However I am a member of The NMRA and find that to be worthwhile. Next for me will be building structures. I have done a few already.
OK I'll jump in here. .
Joe
Don't limit yourself to a Club atmosphere when I comes to OPERATIONS!
Your local NMRA Division is where to make friendships and most of those members may have a home layout that they do OPs on.
See about getting invited to one of there OPs Sessions and just take some time to see how OPERATIONS! really works!
This also applies to a MRR Club!
While my local Club is trying to get our HO layout up to the point of Operations again (we are adding on to the layout) most of the membership are or already have their own Home Layouts that support an OPs Session of some form.
The others are building layouts and most plan on having Operations as a major part of the Layout.
While the fun for some is the building of a layout - as the layout nears completion (No Layout is ever done) most become disillusioned as they now don't know what to do next - other than tear down the layout and start again!
Some have tried Operations but found they never planned for OPS in the initial design and destroyed all of their hard work to rebuild the layout with Operations planned into the design!
Other don't feel OPs is important but soon lose interest in the layout and it just sits around collecting dust (which BTW is NOT Weathering) ;-)
What a colossal waste of money!
If one is a lone wolf - and do not want to hang around with other like minded individuals and have fun running a layout and have friends in to run your dream - then be a loner but then don't complain that model railroading is not fun anymore!
Each time I host an OPs Session - I am seeing me dream come alive!
While some think that they don't like groups - even with 20 guys on the layout - I only occassionally have to interact with a few of them as a train comes by or they are dropping off cars at the interchange I am working that session.
Most of the time I am alone an am working the Shortline (I have 7 of them plus the CR Mainline whic is my focus of the layout) and not even have to get involved with anyone if I so choose.
So as you can see - Operations can be a simgle person running a layout or with a Group but still acting alone - if they so choose!
But the good natured talk that we get into while waiting for the Mainline to clear is fun also.
With me being the Layout owner - I am not going around and watching the others to see if they are doing things right.
If they have a questions (as I get a lot of NUBEs and their first times can be have a lot of questions about things) I answer them with as minimial of advice, as I want them to make the decisions as to how a train should be switched (as I believe Operations is a 3D Game) and they should be making all of the decisions (NOT what some GAME Designer thinks YOU should play the game as - as it is predertimined how one gets for one level to another) on how to move the cars at a town.
There is far more to Operations than when just taking a casual look or as how some try to explain this on the Internet.
Some Operations can be very complicated and others very simple - most only see the complicated side and my visitors think it is too complicated when they see us moving around the layout - until I show them we are just matching colors to move cars to Industries.
Now the light bulb comes on and they understand.
If we hook them - then in a month to a year or so we begin having them attend other layouts using the different movement systems and move them up the ladder of experience on OPS!
Just as we get better in detailing our layout one can also get better at running a layout.
If we are suppoed to be building a Model of a Railroad - should we not be running it as one too?
While some state there many sides to this Hobby - shouldn't we explore all of them? Maybe we might be missing something interesting to us that we never considered! ;-)
BOB H - Clarion, PA
mlehman Big Boy Forever I knew some people would take offense, it's inevitable, "you can't catergorize me" and "that's elitism", that's just how it goes, even though I made it clear that "satisfaction" of the model railroader was the deciding factor, and that it was a broad big picture, lacking sub groups. I wasn't taking offense, just pointed out how artificial the whole scheme was. I'm not sure what point setting up arbitrary categories then asking people to pick or stick to one serves. Richard was wondering where this thread will be after he gets back from a trip on the NG. Pretty much the same arguments about what category to stick people in I suspect. As for the NMRA being elitist, come on now. All you have to do is send in your money and join. There no ceremony, secret induction, or introductions needed. You're welcome to come as you are to enjoy model railroading, get advice, construction experience, operate on others layouts, and generally share our love of the hobby.
I was "joking" about the NMRA "Categorizing" (see the "lol" and sunglasses?), because another poster insinuating NMRA could be considered elitist and categorizing.
One thing that most of the posters have failed to mention, at least directly, is that each one of us have our strong points and our weak points.
In my case, I am horrible when it comes to scenery. My layout still has the base wood decks and white hills (with the exception of some tan or concrete retaining walls, depending where you look).
I am resonable when it comes to painting especially given the fact that I paint using brushes. (Where I model precludes the use of an airbrush due to a northern climate.) My one weak place in painting comes in clear finishes. I never seem to be able to get them to come out correctly. When I have other people look at my models, I have gotten many compliments on my cars, engines and buildings. (However, referencing the last point, I don't clear coat them.)
Just like the general population, every model railroader is different in how they approach the hobby. As the old expression goes: "Normal is only an average."