Weighting Flat Cars and Similar Rolling Stock

[fwright]

Another consideration - in weighting cars and locos we are generally looking to get maximum weight in the minimum amount of space.  Density plays a factor - it's not just pure weight.  Lead has the advantage of being heavy and dense, so has a high mass (weight in Earth's gravity) per cubic centimeter.  Brass, suprisingly, is very dense and has almost as much weight per cc as lead.  But lead is generally cheaper than brass, and is easier to work or pour for weighting.  Tungsten (used in welding rods) is heavier per cc than lead.  Welding rods can be snapped or cut into short pieces. 

Depleted uranium is a top choice, but sourcing the material is a little more difficult. 

[cedarwoodron]

Never realized my original post would have the discussion become as viable as it is! I bought a "lead roof boot" at Home Depot for 14.98 and used a standard large scissors to cut the pipe portion from the base, then cut the pipe so I could "monger" it into a flat sheet. The base was also flattened. Methods: I put on disposable gloves (Harbor Freight- great buy!), and when through with the scissors, washed them with dish soap (still wearing the gloves). I used a scrap piece of wood as a "flattening tool) and a dead blow mallet to do the hammering. The gloves were then removed and tossed (in a small grocery plastic bag). I presume I was sufficiently cautious by doing things this way. Further handling of the lead "sheets" I created will entail use of disposable gloves as well. The idea behind the "sheets" is to enable me to cut identically-sized rectangles as compared to the original steel weight plate, then put them together, drill or punch out holes in the lead sheet(s) and use them as weight plates on top of the original steel one (lead facing the plastic bottom of the flat car). That way, as thin as they are, (either singly, or in pairs)their aggregate additional weight gives me the extra ounces needed to increase the total flat car weight. This way, if I want an empty flat, I have the improved weight, without placing a load on top, and the weight is evenly distributed low on the flat car. Similar smaller lead plates can then be cut for empty hoppers at each slanted end, etc. Cedarwoodron

[dbduck]

I too use the bird shot method. Almost exactly the way Jim does

On cars such as hoppers, where the shot needs to be put inside the car body I either put a false floor over the shot or some coal..etc to hide the shot

[jrbernier]

hornblower

Has anyone tried pouring lead bird shot into the underframe cavities and fixing it in place with some type of glue?

  I use #9 bird shot in my flat cars(and some gons/open hoppers).  I use white glue to 'seal' the cavities, and add bird shot - then I give it several soakings of Matte Medium to seal the deal.  I paint the bird shot to match the underbody of the freight car.  Most pf my flat cars match or are very close to the NMRA spec.  I bought my bird shot on-line(25 lbs) - it should last my lifetime!

Jim

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

fwright

doctorwayne

I visited a small factory where they make ornamental planters and other such items from lead and was told that the Ontario Ministry of Labour does not require the use of breathing apparatus in facilities where lead is simply melted for such purposes.  However, at higher temperatures, it does begin to vapourise, and is dangerous to breathe.  For that reason, I always wear a two-stage respirator when doing this work - these use the same filter canisters which you should be using if you're airbrushing or using spray cans, so it's not an added expense to your hobby budget.
As mentioned, do not eat, drink, smoke, or pick your nose when working with lead and do not leave it, or its filing residue where children or pets have access to it, as it's even more dangerous to them.  After you've handled lead, wash your hands thoroughly and it should pose no hazard.

Wayne

In the late '90s we lived in miltary housing in Kodiak, Alaska that had been built in the 1930s.  Lead paint had obviously been used, as had asbestos as insulation on the steam and hot water heat pipes.  A survey found that my two kids, 6 and 4 at the time, had slightly elevated blood lead levels coming from the lead paint being converted to dust where windows were being opened and closed.  The kids were running hands on window sills and eventually ingesting the lead dust.  The windows were replaced, and eventually their lead levels dropped to normal.

Lead does not absorb through the skin - unlike the mercury I used to play with as a kid.  Lead dust gets transferred to the mouth and ingested.  If heated sufficiently, lead vapor can be ingested via the lungs.  Signficantly elevated lead levels in the blood stream interfere with normal growth in children, particularly brain development.

Wayne gives sensible precautions.

FWIW, asbestos dust is ingested through the lungs, where it is a serious and permanent irritant to the lung tissues.  Encapsulation of the asbestos insulation is the normal mitigation.  Our pipes were wrapped with cloth and painted over.  Any damage to the encapsulation were to be reported.

just my experiences

Fred W

As a construction/design professional, and one time home inspector, it is part of my business to understand lead and asbestos hazards.

Lead presents little or no risk to adults in limited exposure situations like working on our models, and even most moderate level risks are temperary for adults. Even proper use of a heat gun to remove paint presents little risk to adults with proper proceedures. Lead does not vaporize at normal temperatures necessary to melt/scrape paint. Proper cleanup of the scrapings is all that is required to be safe.

Children however are at great risk from lead ingestion, and great care should be taken to limit their exposure.

Asbestos is a real and permanent danger to all - that said, no know case of asbestos illness in the U.S has ever been linked to a residential or consumer product containing asbestos. I have personally read the trial transcripts of the original asbestos litigation, and the primary hazard has always been industrial use exposures.

Despite the facts about lead and asbestos, there is still much "fear mongering" on the subject, much of it coming from our own government.

Sheldon 

[hornblower]

Has anyone tried pouring lead bird shot into the underframe cavities and fixing it in place with some type of glue?

[fwright]

doctorwayne

I visited a small factory where they make ornamental planters and other such items from lead and was told that the Ontario Ministry of Labour does not require the use of breathing apparatus in facilities where lead is simply melted for such purposes.  However, at higher temperatures, it does begin to vapourise, and is dangerous to breathe.  For that reason, I always wear a two-stage respirator when doing this work - these use the same filter canisters which you should be using if you're airbrushing or using spray cans, so it's not an added expense to your hobby budget.
As mentioned, do not eat, drink, smoke, or pick your nose when working with lead and do not leave it, or its filing residue where children or pets have access to it, as it's even more dangerous to them.  After you've handled lead, wash your hands thoroughly and it should pose no hazard.

Wayne

In the late '90s we lived in miltary housing in Kodiak, Alaska that had been built in the 1930s.  Lead paint had obviously been used, as had asbestos as insulation on the steam and hot water heat pipes.  A survey found that my two kids, 6 and 4 at the time, had slightly elevated blood lead levels coming from the lead paint being converted to dust where windows were being opened and closed.  The kids were running hands on window sills and eventually ingesting the lead dust.  The windows were replaced, and eventually their lead levels dropped to normal.

Lead does not absorb through the skin - unlike the mercury I used to play with as a kid.  Lead dust gets transferred to the mouth and ingested.  If heated sufficiently, lead vapor can be ingested via the lungs.  Signficantly elevated lead levels in the blood stream interfere with normal growth in children, particularly brain development.

Wayne gives sensible precautions.

FWIW, asbestos dust is ingested through the lungs, where it is a serious and permanent irritant to the lung tissues.  Encapsulation of the asbestos insulation is the normal mitigation.  Our pipes were wrapped with cloth and painted over.  Any damage to the encapsulation were to be reported.

just my experiences

Fred W

[gondola1988]

I got an old electric melting pot for making bullets and fishing sinkers works great. My buddy has a garage and gets me all the lead weights I can use. I made a mold out of plywood and strips of thin balsa wood and make strips about a foot long and 1/8 inch thin for my cars. Its also easy to shape with a hammer, as for the flat cars I get the small round shot used in reloading shotgun shells and fill the small holes in the bottom with them mixed with white glue and paint them after it dries, Jim.

 

[NP2626]

I built a couple of Central Valley Model Works 41 foot Northern Pacific Flat Cars.  The undersides are completely detailed with all piping and brake hardware, making installing any weight difficult.  I love the cars and the extra detailing provided with them.  During the time I model, the Northern Pacific mostly used these cars in service to the company.  So, coming up with a load to add weight to is one way of getting the car to come up to NMRA standards.  I have packed the undersides with thick diameter solder, where I could find room, although this does destroy the realism of the undersides of the car (a part not seen, unless involved in a rollover wreck).  What was nice is that these cars have fish-belly sills as the outer frame of the car.  Had I forgone the piping and brake details, there is more than adequate room to add enough weight to the car, by molding lead weights for the underside.

By the way, if you like to build your rolling stock, Central Valley Model Works has these N.P. flat cars and an N.P. round roofed stock car that build into wonderful models.  Be aware that the come unpainted and therefore undecorated.  So, decals from Microscale (or other decal producer) will be necessary.  They are fun to build and unusual subjects.

["JaBear"]

zstripe

Maybe,that's why I'm ''Goofy''..

Far be it from me to argue with my elders, Frank. 

As not as elegant or as tidy as doctorwaynes mouldings but lead fishing sinkers squished in a vise, hammered flat, then cut with snips, what ya gotta do when you don't have access to a heaty device.

The bottom of my depressed centre car shown in this weeks WPF, http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/221113.aspx

Cheers, the Bear.

[zstripe]

Wayne,

I agree with you,,,,,I used to be one of the ''Goof's'' that used,Lead for body repair's on car's,,mainly,ona counta because,there was nuttin,else,,,Maybe,that's why I'm ''Goofy''..

Cheers, 

Frank

[doctorwayne]

zstripe

I often wonder,what fishermen do when they attach,the lead weights,to the fishing line and they are usually,eating and drinking,when they do it...plus smoking..Is that really, much different,than handling it for a Model Train car ?

Cheers, 

Frank

Probably not that much difference at all, Frank, but we're more aware nowadays of its hazards.   The warnings are there for each individual to heed or ignore, as they choose, but it would be irresponsible of me to not mention them.   I handle a fair amount of lead, as I use it in all of my locomotives and passenger cars, and much of my freight equipment, too.  I try to be careful, but I don't get paranoid about it. 
The toxicity is probably magnified greatly for small children and pets, so even if the modeller wishes to be blasé about his own well being, it would be prudent to prevent risk to those more vulnerable.

Wayne

[zstripe]

I often wonder,what fishermen do when they attach,the lead weights,to the fishing line and they are usually,eating and drinking,when they do it...plus smoking..Is that really, much different,than handling it for a Model Train car ?

Cheers, 

Frank

[bogp40]

If you need additional thickness for the lead, instead of trying to glue numerous strips, score and fanfold the lead flashing to the size required. Peening and shaping to fit within centersills, frame, etc.

Again I will reiterate, the need to wash hands, avoid eating, drinking and smoking while working w/ this stuff.

[tomikawaTT]

You can add a little more weight where it will do the most good by painting the axle and the backs of the wheels, then wrapping a turn or two of lead wire or solid wire solder around them.  Watch coupler draft gear/screw clearance, and clearance to deep-girder main sills.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

I install metal sprung trucks with metal wheel sets on almost all my freight cars, and I find that most flat cars track fine after that upgrade.

Metal trucks put the weight where it does the most good.

Sheldon

[doctorwayne]

I've also used lead sheet where there's little available space to hide additional weight, but generally prefer to cast lead weights to suit each particular car.

When a car has fishbelly-type side sills, like this modified Athearn Blue Box flatcar...

...I simply remove the underframe (I also removed the steel weight and plastic floor of these particular cars and replace them with a flush deck of .060" styrene, to which individual stripwood boards can be affixed.  This results in a car which rides prototypically lower).  I then use contact cement to attach a suitably-sized cast weight.  The one below is also held in place by styrene strips cemented to the sidesills:

This Walthers GSC flatcar has its frame and sills cast as a single piece, like the prototype, and required a slightly different approach:

To cast such weights, I use wheel balancing weights - used ones can usually be had for free from any garage or automotive centre. 
Once you have the lead, the first task is to make suitable moulds.  I use sheet aluminum, readily available at most hardware stores.  A scrap piece of aluminum siding will also work, but remember to form the mould with the painted side "out".
Do the layout work using a ruler and pencil.  In the picture below, I'm making multiple moulds of the same size (this allows you to heat and use larger batches of lead, without having to wait to re-use a single mould).

Use a utility knife to score along the layout lines - a couple of passes is good enough where you'll be bending the material, and four or five passes where you want to break the strip of laid-out moulds from the main sheet:

Next, use a pair of tin snips to make one cut, as shown, at each corner.  I like to pair the cuts so that one side of the mould can be easily opened to facilitate removal of the cast weight.  You can usually get several casts from a mould before the aluminum fatigues enough to break off:

Use pliers to bend the sides into place - I prefer smooth-jawed ones to avoid scarring the inside faces of the mould:

You can make pretty-well any simple shape and size using this method:

I made a simple pot in which to melt the wheel weights, using the metal cap from a large spray can.  A short length of broom handle was attached to it using a couple of screws and a scrap of aluminum, and a couple of crimps formed with pliers yielded pouring spouts.
With a number of wheel weights in the pot, I placed it on my opened bench vise (allow as little contact area as possible to safely support the pot, as the vise will suck-up a lot of heat through those contact points).  Next, I used a propane torch (similar to those used by plumbers and readily available) to heat the bottom of the pot.  As the weights melt, the steel clips and any dirt or paint will float to the top, where it can be removed - the clips can be picked out using an old screwdriver, while the dirt and other dross will cling to the cooler tip of the screwdriver, and can be lifted out. 

When all of the unwanted material has been removed, and the lead is all in liquid form, it's ready to pour.  I place the moulds on a metal sheet, then simply tip the pot to fill each one.  Don't worry if you overfill a mould, simply keep moving along to the next one until the lead in the pot is either gone or begins to solidify.
To correct overflowed moulds, simply play the flame of the torch over the mould - as the lead becomes liquid again, the excess will bead-up and fall away onto the metal sheet.  You can also use the screwdriver to scrape excess lead from the top of the molten material in the mould.  Lead forms a convex meniscus, so the top edges of the "ingot" will draw away slightly from the mould walls.  If you require flat-edged weights, use a mill file to shape them after they've cooled.

I visited a small factory where they make ornamental planters and other such items from lead and was told that the Ontario Ministry of Labour does not require the use of breathing apparatus in facilities where lead is simply melted for such purposes.  However, at higher temperatures, it does begin to vapourise, and is dangerous to breathe.  For that reason, I always wear a two-stage respirator when doing this work - these use the same filter canisters which you should be using if you're airbrushing or using spray cans, so it's not an added expense to your hobby budget.
As mentioned, do not eat, drink, smoke, or pick your nose when working with lead and do not leave it, or its filing residue where children or pets have access to it, as it's even more dangerous to them.  After you've handled lead, wash your hands thoroughly and it should pose no hazard.

Wayne

[dstarr]

cedarwoodron

Dave: What exactly does vinegar do to the lead- etch it, as in etching an ho diesel loco frame prior to painting? Cedarwoodron

  Pickling puts some tooth in the surface, microscopic roughness to which the adhesive (and paint) can grab.  It also cuts thru a slick, slightly greasy surface film which is probably some kinda lubricant off the rollers at the mill which rolled it out flat

[dknelson]

I purchased some sheets of lead at a swap meet and they may well be flashing.  The guy who sold them had carefully wrapped them in newspaper to avoid direct contact.  I use the lead to replace the steel weight on cars that would otherwise be underweight.  Once I cut the lead to size I thoroughly cover it with black spray paint again to minimize direct skin contact.  I am also thorough about washing my hands afterwards and I do not drink or eat anything while at my workbench.  I have also heard that smoking is a bad idea -- perhaps I should say, an even worse idea than usual -- while handling lead.

Dave Nelson

[cedarwoodron]

Dave: What exactly does vinegar do to the lead- etch it, as in etching an ho diesel loco frame prior to painting? Cedarwoodron

[dstarr]

cedarwoodron

I read of where one modeler bought a lead roof flashing boot to cut up for additonal car weighting on flat cars and other hard-to-hide (the weight) cars. Anyone using this? Cedarwoodron

I do that.  I buy sheets of flashing lead at the lumberyard.  It's dense, easy to hide, cuts easily with snips. Sticks in place with silicone bathtub caulk.  To improve the stick, pickle the lead in vinegar for 5-10 minutes.   

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I might be the one you read about. I cut up the flashing/vent/whatever into appropriate size pieces and glue them into the spaces in the flat cars frame, hide them inside loads, remove the steel weight and replace it with a lead sheet, whatever it takes. In a gondola a lead sheet can be put in and painted to look like the floor of the gon, In empty hoppers the bottoms of the bays can be lined with lead.

[cedarwoodron]

I read of where one modeler bought a lead roof flashing boot to cut up for additonal car weighting on flat cars and other hard-to-hide (the weight) cars. Anyone using this? Cedarwoodron