Rich,
OK, not a good night, so let me get back to Train #325 later...
First, take another look at West and East, as you have them both going in the same direction. They should be opposite to each other. I'd also recommend that N and S just be taken off the trackplan. They'll cause confusion between talking about timetable direction, for ops purposes, and compass direction, which is surprisingly irrelevant when discussing ops. In fact, you could be going East by compass, yet be traveling West by timetable direction, just as an example of the confusion that could occur.
I'd suggest that the "4-track siding" might also double as staging. That way, timetable East from it would go the way the E arrow above it is pointed and would yield a "east to the right" convention to those viewing the layout, which is the expected direction when orienting to most maps, for instance. This also means that timetable West goes to the left, matching the convention for East.
The freight yard is noted and sounds like a good destination for originating and terminating local trains. I'd argue that's where your local that's going to originate from when going to switch Farm siding. On the other hand, you could assume that it originates from an off-layout location, but that's actually the 4-track siding being used as staging, stops at Farm siding to work there, then proceeds to terminate at the freight yard.
If the loaded hoppers are going to separate destinations, that cut can be broken down there. Cars going West would be picked up by the next appropriate Westbound through train. If going East, then those will be picked up by the next through Eastbound train, even though this means they'll backtrack back PAST Farm siding. That's OK, as the through train is not expected to stop and work Farm siding.
This is probably a good place to stop now and get feedback on these suggestions from you. Does it sound viable? Confusing? Or you'd rather that we not use 4-Track siding as staging and put it somewhere else?
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
OK, we're ready to follow Silverton Union RR #325 West up the branch to Animas Forks, then turn as #326 to return to Silverton. Got your heavy boots, a good jacket, and a hat? You'll need them all, plus a good set of gloves.
You gotta start somewhere. #456 is a leased Rio Grande K-27 that has just finished up switching around the yard. The early crew left her hooked up to a drop bottom gon that needs to go east down the branch. Here's the car card they left and your authority to operate, the bright green Train #325/326 card. There's also a note from the dispatcher with the MT order for the mills and mines on the branch. Looks like MT, one each to the Sunnyside, the Haymarket Tram and the Gold Prince. Here's a lineup of the cars in Yard Track 1. Thinking ahead a little, the drop bottom can just be dropped where it is, then reverse the loco, grab the string of MTs outta Yard Track 1, then shove them with MOW car 3057 on the end to couple to the drop bottom. The whole string goes back in Yard 1, then cut the couplers to pull back out with the 3 MTs you need for today's train. Somehow, I didn't get pics of the string of loaded cars in Yard 3, but I did get the car cards picked up, pulled that string of cars back, then shoved them forward to connect with the MTs, then grabbed a couple of more car for Eureka from Yard 2. We'll see them all in a minute. In the meantime, #456 was taken to the wye and turned to face the right direction. It then goes to the south House track at the depot and plucks out SNRR Coach 4, which will carry passengers and locked bag express and mail and puts it on the rear of the train. Then it moves back to the head of the train, leaving us with this shot of it, the 10 cars and the coach on the track closest to the fascia. Here we see the card pack, not too thick, ready to go. Ten cars is about the limit for tarin length on this branch, so we've got a pretty big train today. Train #325 backs out of town, down to SN Junction, then will proceed forward up the hill. That's it for right now. More later. Enjoy the scenery!
You gotta start somewhere. #456 is a leased Rio Grande K-27 that has just finished up switching around the yard. The early crew left her hooked up to a drop bottom gon that needs to go east down the branch.
Here's the car card they left and your authority to operate, the bright green Train #325/326 card. There's also a note from the dispatcher with the MT order for the mills and mines on the branch. Looks like MT, one each to the Sunnyside, the Haymarket Tram and the Gold Prince. Here's a lineup of the cars in Yard Track 1. Thinking ahead a little, the drop bottom can just be dropped where it is, then reverse the loco, grab the string of MTs outta Yard Track 1, then shove them with MOW car 3057 on the end to couple to the drop bottom. The whole string goes back in Yard 1, then cut the couplers to pull back out with the 3 MTs you need for today's train. Somehow, I didn't get pics of the string of loaded cars in Yard 3, but I did get the car cards picked up, pulled that string of cars back, then shoved them forward to connect with the MTs, then grabbed a couple of more car for Eureka from Yard 2. We'll see them all in a minute. In the meantime, #456 was taken to the wye and turned to face the right direction. It then goes to the south House track at the depot and plucks out SNRR Coach 4, which will carry passengers and locked bag express and mail and puts it on the rear of the train. Then it moves back to the head of the train, leaving us with this shot of it, the 10 cars and the coach on the track closest to the fascia. Here we see the card pack, not too thick, ready to go. Ten cars is about the limit for tarin length on this branch, so we've got a pretty big train today. Train #325 backs out of town, down to SN Junction, then will proceed forward up the hill. That's it for right now. More later. Enjoy the scenery!
Here's the car card they left and your authority to operate, the bright green Train #325/326 card. There's also a note from the dispatcher with the MT order for the mills and mines on the branch. Looks like MT, one each to the Sunnyside, the Haymarket Tram and the Gold Prince.
Here's a lineup of the cars in Yard Track 1. Thinking ahead a little, the drop bottom can just be dropped where it is, then reverse the loco, grab the string of MTs outta Yard Track 1, then shove them with MOW car 3057 on the end to couple to the drop bottom. The whole string goes back in Yard 1, then cut the couplers to pull back out with the 3 MTs you need for today's train. Somehow, I didn't get pics of the string of loaded cars in Yard 3, but I did get the car cards picked up, pulled that string of cars back, then shoved them forward to connect with the MTs, then grabbed a couple of more car for Eureka from Yard 2. We'll see them all in a minute. In the meantime, #456 was taken to the wye and turned to face the right direction. It then goes to the south House track at the depot and plucks out SNRR Coach 4, which will carry passengers and locked bag express and mail and puts it on the rear of the train. Then it moves back to the head of the train, leaving us with this shot of it, the 10 cars and the coach on the track closest to the fascia. Here we see the card pack, not too thick, ready to go. Ten cars is about the limit for tarin length on this branch, so we've got a pretty big train today. Train #325 backs out of town, down to SN Junction, then will proceed forward up the hill. That's it for right now. More later. Enjoy the scenery!
Here's a lineup of the cars in Yard Track 1.
Thinking ahead a little, the drop bottom can just be dropped where it is, then reverse the loco, grab the string of MTs outta Yard Track 1, then shove them with MOW car 3057 on the end to couple to the drop bottom. The whole string goes back in Yard 1, then cut the couplers to pull back out with the 3 MTs you need for today's train. Somehow, I didn't get pics of the string of loaded cars in Yard 3, but I did get the car cards picked up, pulled that string of cars back, then shoved them forward to connect with the MTs, then grabbed a couple of more car for Eureka from Yard 2. We'll see them all in a minute. In the meantime, #456 was taken to the wye and turned to face the right direction. It then goes to the south House track at the depot and plucks out SNRR Coach 4, which will carry passengers and locked bag express and mail and puts it on the rear of the train. Then it moves back to the head of the train, leaving us with this shot of it, the 10 cars and the coach on the track closest to the fascia. Here we see the card pack, not too thick, ready to go. Ten cars is about the limit for tarin length on this branch, so we've got a pretty big train today. Train #325 backs out of town, down to SN Junction, then will proceed forward up the hill. That's it for right now. More later. Enjoy the scenery!
Thinking ahead a little, the drop bottom can just be dropped where it is, then reverse the loco, grab the string of MTs outta Yard Track 1, then shove them with MOW car 3057 on the end to couple to the drop bottom. The whole string goes back in Yard 1, then cut the couplers to pull back out with the 3 MTs you need for today's train.
Somehow, I didn't get pics of the string of loaded cars in Yard 3, but I did get the car cards picked up, pulled that string of cars back, then shoved them forward to connect with the MTs, then grabbed a couple of more car for Eureka from Yard 2. We'll see them all in a minute. In the meantime, #456 was taken to the wye and turned to face the right direction. It then goes to the south House track at the depot and plucks out SNRR Coach 4, which will carry passengers and locked bag express and mail and puts it on the rear of the train.
Then it moves back to the head of the train, leaving us with this shot of it, the 10 cars and the coach on the track closest to the fascia. Here we see the card pack, not too thick, ready to go. Ten cars is about the limit for tarin length on this branch, so we've got a pretty big train today. Train #325 backs out of town, down to SN Junction, then will proceed forward up the hill. That's it for right now. More later. Enjoy the scenery!
Then it moves back to the head of the train, leaving us with this shot of it, the 10 cars and the coach on the track closest to the fascia.
Here we see the card pack, not too thick, ready to go. Ten cars is about the limit for tarin length on this branch, so we've got a pretty big train today. Train #325 backs out of town, down to SN Junction, then will proceed forward up the hill. That's it for right now. More later. Enjoy the scenery!
Here we see the card pack, not too thick, ready to go. Ten cars is about the limit for tarin length on this branch, so we've got a pretty big train today.
Train #325 backs out of town, down to SN Junction, then will proceed forward up the hill. That's it for right now. More later. Enjoy the scenery!
Train #325 backs out of town, down to SN Junction, then will proceed forward up the hill.
That's it for right now. More later. Enjoy the scenery!
I'm going to start posting the Local run and its pics and need to stay at it to get done tonight. The trackplan is very helpful and I've got some ideas for you, will get back to later with them.
mlehman Your layout sounds very much like the standard gauge part of mine. Let's sort out directions. Look at E,S, N, and W as pairs, but adopt only one set and don't worry too much about the other. What we're talking about here is "timetable direction." For your purposes, I'd choose East/West, because I'm pretty sure that what's the C&NW used. Is there staging? If not, can you designate tracks that the train begins it's run on? Is there a passing siding (or crossovers in your case) nearby the farm spur? So for your example, coming from the yard where it originated, does the train arrive to find a facing point or trailing point spur to pick up the hoppers? Which direction E or W do you enter the spur from? What is your maximum train length?
Your layout sounds very much like the standard gauge part of mine. Let's sort out directions. Look at E,S, N, and W as pairs, but adopt only one set and don't worry too much about the other. What we're talking about here is "timetable direction."
For your purposes, I'd choose East/West, because I'm pretty sure that what's the C&NW used.
Is there staging? If not, can you designate tracks that the train begins it's run on?
Is there a passing siding (or crossovers in your case) nearby the farm spur?
So for your example, coming from the yard where it originated, does the train arrive to find a facing point or trailing point spur to pick up the hoppers? Which direction E or W do you enter the spur from?
What is your maximum train length?
Alton Junction
mlehmanFirst post looks like 30 January 2008
Thank you, Mike. I was starting to question my own memory and think I was just daytime dreaming.
You're asking some fundamental questions, which was my intent to starting this thread. My philosophy is to get something simple working for operations that is rewarding and enjoyable. Once that's working for you, you can always add in various more complex tasks. The whole point of operations is to simulate operations, not create operations paperwork. You do need some, but my approach is more minimal than many start out with intentionally. That way you develop your own ops scheme, rather than filling out paperwork that you'rer not quite sure about its usefulness and meaning.
Your layout sounds very much like the standard gauge part of mine. Let's sort out directions. Look at E,S, N, and W as pairs, but adopt only one set and don't worry too much about the other. What we're talking about here is "timetable direction." For your purposes, I'd choose East/West, because I'm pretty sure that what's the C&NW used. While you can still use north and south in relationship to the "compass direction" to the main, but they're otherwise not something we'll worry about right now. There, I've already eliminated half the compass, so this project just shrunk by half.
I'm going to guess we're using East/West from here on in, but let me know if you want to do N/S instead.
You didn't mention any staging, but I'll assume it's either there or you can use the main itself for staging, with maybe another siding or two supplementing that. I'll also mostly ignore what I'm sure are other trains than the local you want to run. Let's assume that you've chosen an appropriate loco, too. What's best is whatever you think suitable, as I can see steam or a Geep or two or other locos all being suitable for this run.
Next thing we need to decide is how to switch that spur. Is there a passing side nearby? Or can you use the opposite main for a runaround? If so then you can come from either direction to pick up those cars. If not, then you'll want to switch it as a trailing point pickup, where the loco stops before getting to the turnout, uncouples, moves forward, turnout is thrown, then backs into the spur to couple and drag those 12 hoppers out. After that, once the switch is thrown to line the main route through, then the cars are backed onto whatever was left of that train, maybe just a caboose, possibly other cars already in the train.
If the local comes to the spur in the other direction, then it's a facing point spur. You need a siding long enough so you can runaround the rest of the train, bring the cars out, and couple them to the rest of the train (if applicable) to continue. If you're not running cabooses anymore and have just the loco, it does simplify the need for runarounds somewhat.
Let's pick start and end points for that train and figure what else is in it. Your yard can be the start point for the train, although it may have come in from elsewhere the night before or even from staging if you have that. There could be other freight cars that will need delivered, including MTs to replace the cars you'll pull. These don't need to arrive when the hoppers are picked up, but that's one option. There could be just a caboose or, if you're really modern, just the loco itself. That's up to you.
This is a good time to mention train length as a limiting ops factor. You'll see that come up a lot when I get my local run pics posted soon. If you have 12 hoppers, then you'll need sidings that are longer than that to allow passing if there are other trains that you need to meet and clear the main for, lets say a passenger train. In your case with double track, it may be more about spacing between crossovers, as that makes things a little different than on a single-track main. Ultimately, it's the shortest siding length that determines maximum train length (although you can double into yard tracks, etc, to keep things fluid, you just need to get your lowly local outta of the way of the passenger train.) If you don't already know what maximum train length works for you, this is a good time to figure that out.
Finally, yes, all this complexity will include no more than two stops on the four-part waybill. There could be a an entry on the waybill sending the car MT to the grain spur - or maybe not. It could also be the case that there is a Return To instruction on the car card that sent it to where your local began its run. There it sat in the yard, until you got an order for 8 more MT hoppers that your train has brought to spot once the 12 loaded hoppers are pulled. We don't know if that's how the 12 loaded hoppers got there or not, it's possible either way, but it doesn't really matter once they're loaded. That's the part we're sure to have on our waybill(s) for these, which is the destination of the loaded hoppers. So all this action can be the result of just one entry on the waybill. Then there are 3 more possible waybill entries, depending on your talent for excurciatingly filling out forms, that can be used after the current load is delivered. The next waybill turn entry after these outbound loads could be a waybill returning them MT to be reloaded. Then the final shipment can be to the location that sent to first waybill entry to you as an MT.
That also points out why I use the Return To line on the car card to send MTs back more and more, as that opens up more shipping destinations. Essentially, if you use the waybill to send MTs home all the time as an entry on it, you only half as much space to write-in destinations. Obviously, you choose what works best for you.
mlehman OK, we'll work on your example while I'm working up the local walk-through. We'll take it step by step. Where does this train originate? Does it return there, drop the cars to be forwarded for later pickup by another train? Or does the train that will pick up the hoppers then take them further down the line to another destination, possibly to staging or otherwise off the visible layout? This is where the directions on your layout are important. East/West? North/South? Once you decide, then you can simply route some cars one way and some the other. Another thing to remember about destinations is to figure out where the destinations on your layout, better known as industries, get shipments from, basically the reverse of shipping stuff, which is your example here. So where did the train picking up the cars originate from? Crew had to park somewhere.
OK, we'll work on your example while I'm working up the local walk-through. We'll take it step by step.
Where does this train originate? Does it return there, drop the cars to be forwarded for later pickup by another train? Or does the train that will pick up the hoppers then take them further down the line to another destination, possibly to staging or otherwise off the visible layout?
This is where the directions on your layout are important. East/West? North/South? Once you decide, then you can simply route some cars one way and some the other.
Another thing to remember about destinations is to figure out where the destinations on your layout, better known as industries, get shipments from, basically the reverse of shipping stuff, which is your example here.
So where did the train picking up the cars originate from? Crew had to park somewhere.
Mike, I took the liberty to excerpt you response to my questions.
In terms of where the loco/train picking up the cars originate from, are you ready for this, I don't know. That is part of my learning process when it comes to Ops. I know that I have 12 covered hoppers to be picked up from the farm siding, and I know that I want to make them part of a longer train taking them to some destination. So, I need to send a loco from the yard and pick them up and bring them to the yard to become part of a longer train to some ultimate destination. That's why I was asking about the different locos that might be used to initially retrieve the cars and to eventually take them to their ultimate destination.
In terms of direction, here is my basic question. On my layout, although it is a large and long continuous loop, it is a double main line with a large downtown passenger station at one end, a coach yard, freight yard, engine servicing facility and multi-track siding in the middle, and a large farm at the other end. At one time, I was going to establish a C&NW layout, but I have since abandoned that idea. Even so, I follow certain C&NW protocols, one of which is to run trains clock wise on the inner main and counter clock wise on the outer main. The outer main line is considered west bound, and the inner main line is considered east bound. The downtown passenger station is considered to be at the north end, and the farm is considered to be at the south end. That said, how does these geographic (north, south, east, and west) considerations come into play in the Ops process?
One other question. In a typical Ops session, I assume that the whole process of picking up the covered hoppers, moving them to the yard, and then taking them to their destination is just one of the four turns on the 4-turn waybill. Or, is it? Then, I assume that I must take steps to get the covered hoppers back to the farm. Can you explain this part of the Ops process.
Cripes, I feel like I have hijacked this thread. My apologies.
Rich
Dave, thanks for that comprehensive tutorial on Ops. Very, very helpful.
wp8thsub richhotrainLet me throw this one your way in the best laymen's terms that I can use. I have 12 covered hoppers on my farm siding. They are loaded with grain and ready to be shipped somewhere. So I need a loco (yard loco - ???) to go get the hoppers, bring them somewhere, my yard or a main line siding, to be picked up by a main line loco and taken to market. Dave H. given you a good explanation of the basics of this. I'll add to it with a specific example from my layout.
richhotrainLet me throw this one your way in the best laymen's terms that I can use. I have 12 covered hoppers on my farm siding. They are loaded with grain and ready to be shipped somewhere. So I need a loco (yard loco - ???) to go get the hoppers, bring them somewhere, my yard or a main line siding, to be picked up by a main line loco and taken to market.
Dave H. given you a good explanation of the basics of this. I'll add to it with a specific example from my layout.
Rob, thanks for that explanation. It certainly adds to my limited understanding of the Ops process.
Capt. Grimek http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/11187 The Ops intro videos:
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/11187
The Ops intro videos:
I just watched the first of the four videos, and it is excellent and highly informative.
As an aside, does anyone know which method that fellow is using to throw turnouts. I don't see any manual ground throws, so I am curious what he is doing to move the point rails.
mlehman kenkalHopefully, someone knows for sure or within a year or two. First post looks like 30 January 2008: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/117346.aspx
kenkalHopefully, someone knows for sure or within a year or two.
First post looks like 30 January 2008:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/117346.aspx
Thanks for that info on the origins of the Electronics and DCC forum. I realize we somehow drifted off topic, but this is encouraging to see that the administrators are willing to consider additonal forums.
Hopefully this link will work. If not, perhaps someone else can make it "live".
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Yes! It is definitely time for an Operations forum here. There has been one at modelrailroadhobbyist.com for some time and its great to have that resource. I feel that some folks here who are unfamiliar or intimidated by operations are going off task if not off subject (a bit) doomsaying the addition of a new/ops forum.
The hobby is in a large part heading in this direction and MR itself is supportive of this aspect of model railroading and it IS a gateway for young people to enter the hobby. The gamers and computer kids are attracted to the role playing and educational (historical, job practices, strategies) aspects of Ops.
I'm a new operator myself and have found things to be confusing and a lot to learn but the newer forums and finally finding a mentor or two who will guide me, I'm finding it to be the focus of the hobby for me these days and for the future.
MRH has recently posted 4 excellent instructional videos (I think they're on youtube also) that explain how to switch yards and industries, etc. Very informal and eye opening for beginners.
It's my opinion that it's time for an ops forum here whether everyone is interested or not. There are plenty of us who are. I truly believe that Ops will bring new blood (and old blood) into the hobby and the hobby needs that to grow and survive.
Please, MR/Kalmbach, consider this?
I'll start with an idea of the territory involved, although this isn't the whole layout. I have a major yard at Junction City. The next town west of that is Chester, site of a cement plant, commercial printing plant, and a grocery distribution center. The second town to the west is Milton, where there's a grain elevator, feed mill/farm supply distributor, a propane dealer and a team track. A fairly involved local works both these towns. As is typical on the prototype, an industry is worked by only one local, and when it's done, all the cars it picks up come back to the yard.
There's a Milton Turn job that's called around 11:00 AM out of Junction City (JC). The JC yard blocks the train in rough station order, with Chester at the front. The Milton Turn crew get their power from the engine facility, and tie on the caboose. The locomotives and caboose used will vary.
Based on its procedures (helpful for inexperienced operators, and subject to interpretation by the more seasoned ones), the turn stops at Chester to switch the trailing point printing plant/grocery warehouse spur (the cement plant is facing point, so it'll be switched later). The cement plant is the biggest industry on the layout, and there's no purpose hauling all its cars with the train to Milton, so they're temporarily dropped on a double-ended company setout track at Chester, along with everything that was picked up already (they're also going back to the yard, so no need to haul them to Milton either).
The local proceeds west to Milton, working the industries there as needed - including the elevator and its loaded hoppers. Remember this job is a "turn." Once it finishes at Milton, the train starts heading back east on a return trip to the yard.
Upon reaching Chester once again, the turn grabs the cement plant cars from the company track and works that industry, which is now trailing point. With all the pickups done, the crew will reassemble the train and continue east to JC yard.
At JC, the train will pull into whichever track the yardmaster designates. Power and caboose are removed. The JC yard switch crew will then take the train apart and block all its cars by destination. Those hoppers from the elevator may be split up depending on where they're going.
Consider what's happening:
So, based on the above, I'll address your remaining questions also...
Do I put waybills in each of the 12 car cards for the 12 covered hoppers?
To keep it simple, each car would have its own waybill to show where it's going.
How do I indicate which loco retrieves the hoppers?
You really don't. The TRAIN works the industry based on its set procedures, using whatever power it has.
How do I direct the loco where to take the cars?
You provide instructions to the crew on what to do with "pulls." As in the case of the local I described, I tell the local crew to just take everything back to the yard.
How do I direct a main line loco to get them from wherever they are being moved to from the farm siding?
The through freight crews also have procedures. Once in the yard, the cars would typically be blocked, and the through freight will pick up the appropriate block(s).
Rob Spangler
richhotrain Ken, is that right? You may be correct, but it seems like the Electronics and DCC forum has been around as long as I have.
Ken, is that right?
You may be correct, but it seems like the Electronics and DCC forum has been around as long as I have.
Well Rich, I am geting up there in years and my memory isn't as sharp as it used to be, so of course I could be wrong. However, I didn't get my DCC system until 2005 and I just don't recall the DCC forum being there for some time afterwards.
Hopefully, someone knows for sure or within a year or two.
Ken
kenkal Not quite true about 10 years, Rich. I and others suggested a number of times to split out DCC since it's popularity was increasing tremendously and so many people had questions on how tos, etc. I think it was around 2008, maybe even earlier that the Electronics & DCC forum was created to split off those topics from this forum. As busy as this forum is today, can you imagine the congestion if we still had to do with the electronics and DCC topics? Ken
Not quite true about 10 years, Rich. I and others suggested a number of times to split out DCC since it's popularity was increasing tremendously and so many people had questions on how tos, etc. I think it was around 2008, maybe even earlier that the Electronics & DCC forum was created to split off those topics from this forum.
As busy as this forum is today, can you imagine the congestion if we still had to do with the electronics and DCC topics?
Can anyone tell us when the Electronics and DCC forum was created?
richhotrain Let me throw this one your way in the best laymen's terms that I can use. I have 12 covered hoppers on my farm siding. They are loaded with grain and ready to be shipped somewhere. So I need a loco (yard loco - ???) to go get the hoppers, bring them somewhere, my yard or a main line siding, to be picked up by a main line loco and taken to market. Is this a valid operation?
Let me throw this one your way in the best laymen's terms that I can use. I have 12 covered hoppers on my farm siding. They are loaded with grain and ready to be shipped somewhere. So I need a loco (yard loco - ???) to go get the hoppers, bring them somewhere, my yard or a main line siding, to be picked up by a main line loco and taken to market.
Is this a valid operation?
Yes.
They would probably be at an elevator rather than a farm. But that's bside the point. Normally a local pulls and spots cars from industries.
Through freights move blocks or groups of cars between yards or interchanges.
Locals pull and spot cars at indistries.
Yard engines switch cars in yards.
Some switch engines can perform local work, but switch engines generally only run 25 miles or less from the yard at which they are based. Locals can run over an entire subdivision. Through freights ran run over one or more subdivisions.
Generally yes, especially if they are all going to different places.
You don't do that on the car card. You assign a TRAIN to switch the industries. All the industries at Anna, Bess and Cloy are switched by Local #741 and all the industries at Dora, Eve and Fay are switched by local #745. The loco is just whatever engine is assigned to that TRAIN that day. Today #741 might have the ABC 1234 and tomorrow it might have the ABC 2345.
All the waybill does is say where the car goes.
Each train has a schedule. Local #741 runs from the yard at Anna to Bess to Cloy, then turns and comes back through Bess to the yard at Anna. So all the cars that the local pulls come back to Anna. The locals know which cars to pull because the waybills say the car goes someplace other than where the car is. If #741 pull into Bess and there is a boxcar with a waybill that says the car goes to New York, then the local pulls that car.
Local #741 pulls the cars from the farm siding and brings them to the yard. The yard switcher sorts the cars and puts al lthe cars going to destinations east of the yard onto the east thru freight and all the cars going to destinations west of the yard onto the west thru freight. Then later you run an east thru freight and a west thru freight. If your yard is at St Louis and the 12 cars you pulled include 3 cars for New York, 3 for California, 4 for Portland, OR and 2 for Norfolk, you would put the 3 NY and 2 Norfolk cars on the east freight and the rest on the west freight. All this is driven by the destinations on the waybill.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Don't sweat where things start from in the scheme of sequential operation. You should be able to jump in anywhere and pick up the next train. In fact, if you worry too much about the begnning or end, you'll end up a little batty. Obviously, your train will show up to pick up the hoppers from somewhere. Sounds like the siding is out in the country, but you've got to get it from the shipper to a yard to send it somewhere else (ignoring the cases where you might stick one of the cars just loaded in a siding at the elevator in the next town.) Let's give that train a reason other than showing up to get the hoppers out of that siding.
We''ll do one more in this round...You don't NEED 12 waybills in the cards for 12 cars. You probably do need the 12 individual car cards, though. It depends. Are the 12 hoppers all going to one destination? You could use one waybill in the front car, noting it's a unit train, and use a small binder clip to hold the packet of car cards together. Simple. Or you could ship a few here and there, but a six-car string could also be part of a unit train.
Unit trains. Keep them in mind if you model anything after 1970 or you can ignore them mostly if before that date. But they are another opportunity to condense the paperwork by writing one waybill for a bunch of cars
The critical thing, wherever, however, is what are the destinations of these cars going to be? Some or all could stay online if you have customers for them. Others may need to go to the coast for export or to the South in a place where there are lots of chicken farms for chicken feed.
There are ways to get lists through the Op Sig group and other online resources of industries located elsewhere in the country. You may know places where stuff shipped on your line could be headed. Then there's Google, where your can find out a lot, including historical industries that may be of more use than current industries.
Or you can keep it simple for now. This is where the directions on your layout are important. East/West? North/South? Once you decide, then you can simply route some cars one way and some the other. If you're following a prototype, that usually gives lots more clues as to what sustained the RR. In any case, for now, you can just half the cars one way and half the other by putting either E or W or S or N in the Return to the slot for foreign road cars and doing the same in the Routing slot on your waybills that will send cars offline. You could spend days doing research and filling databases with your industry info to write waybills OR you can use my method to quickly set up those destinations and mark down E, W, N, or S, then fill in the industry info as you can and feel like later on. The point is to imagine the destination of that car sitting before you, then write a quick note to yourself about by how it'll get there with the waybill and car card, then follow what your notes say to do to get it there.
As for what loco is on your train, I use the magnetic tape strips with labels to make a small magnet with the lead loco # on it to show the assigned lead loco. There's a pic up above of them stuck on the black binder clip that holds the cardpack. I'm only assuming you have the correct assigned locos with the train at this point. Maybe when you let me know where the train will originate, we can figure out if you need to do more about loco assignments, etc. For now just assume that magnetic loco tag is with the card pack.
Mike,
This is a great explanation on your part, and I get it.
Hope this all makes sense.
No problem, this is an entry level ops scheme, so it's to be expected people have basic questions.
The standard 4-turn waybill is a standard item in Ops speak, although many people use other means to achieve it. It has places to mark the reporting marks, road number, length, and a short description, along with a "Return to" designation.
The waybill itself is a card that is inserted into the car card. The car card provides info on the car, while the waybill tells about what the load is and how it gets where it's going. In real life, waybills are usually one-way documents to a single destination (although there are cases where a split load would be spotted at successive locations to unload.) For model ops purposes, there are 4 spots on the waybill, marked 1, 2, 3, and 4. At each stop, the card is turned, 180 degrees first to pick up destination 2, then card flipped over for 3, then turned 180 again to get Number 4.
For model railroad ops, the 4-turn waybill was originally filled out completely and the same waybill stayed with the same car card in most ops schemes, being changed out infrequently, if not at all. The 4 stops sent a car to four different spots. Often, the stops were set-up in successive order, so the car made the same 4 movements every time it appeared. Not really a big deal with large layouts, this repetition was supposed to represent random car movements, but on smaller layouts often became obvious it wasn't random movement.
Plus, it was an intimidating prospect to set-up a layout. Imagine having 250 cars (not huge, but a lot of people have that many or more) and having to write up 1,000 movements just so you had a completed 4-turn waybill in each car card. Yep, that's where a lot of folks figure things going roundy round is just fine with them and the hecks with all the work involved in ops.
In my scheme, there is no requirement for the waybill to stay with the card. Instead, the waybill can have just a single destination, leaving the other 3 slots on it open, or use up to all 4 destinations. I still have many that are multi-stop. It all depends on the nature of the traffic, but I'll discuss that separately at some point.
Where do waybills go if they're not in the car card? They go into the Loads slots located in one of the car card boxes at each station, if the train originated on line or to the car card boxes in the staging area if originating somewhere that's off the layout. It's when they go from being a load by being plucked out of the car card by the "agent" (that's you or whoever manages things between sessions) and placed into the future Loads slot that randomnization occurs.
With single load waybills, it goes directly back to the originating station's Loads slot and is placed behind all the Loads that came up before, if I don't want to see it for some time, or is slotted somewhere in the middle of the pack of the Loads cards if I think it needs to send a shipment sooner.
If it's a multipart waybill, then I turn the card so that when placed in the loads slot the waybill will show that next stop turned up and to the front.
One thing that is usually not marked on waybills is the Car Class, already discussed above, and the 2-digit AAR car class designation, which I also mark down at the top (X, for boxcars, LO for covered hopper, etc). That makes it easy to find a load I want sent somewhere in a boxcar or tank car, as need be, in the pack of different waybills. You can look at the load and usually determine what car will work best (no, don't try to load gasoline in a boxcar!), but that AAR designator just speeds it up.
My crews also get notes designating the number of MTs needed, usually up in the mine and mills around Silverton, placed with a car card, so a waybill isn't necessary for movement. Likewise, most MTs don't have a waybill, just the Return to written on the car card to send them where needed. A few of my waybills do designate a Return to different than written on the car card and that temporary instruction supercedes the permanent Return to on the car card. You may end up with a train that has mostly MTs moving and waybills in car cards for just a couple of loads in with everything else.
OK, that probably raised more questions. Some of this will also become clearer as we take a ride with the local crew to see how this works in practice. But keep asking and I'll do my best toe xplain.
richhotrain Car cards, waybills, suitable loads !!! Yikes, it is all Greek to me. I don't believe that I am alone when I express interest in "operations" but confess total ignorance as to how to begin. Over the last 8 year period, I have built and expanded a fairly large layout, double main line, large passenger station, coach yard, freight yard, engine service facility, sidings, spurs, whatever. I have a decent number of freight cars, passenger cars, steamers and diesels. I am a lone wolf operator with the only exception being a 2-day visit by a fellow member of this forum where we attempted operations based upon a predetermined "work order" sheet. it kinda worked, although neither of us had any idea how to set it up. As a lone wolf, I go down to my layout and start running trains. Operations? I am clueless. Where to begin? What to do? Rich
Car cards, waybills, suitable loads !!!
Yikes, it is all Greek to me.
I don't believe that I am alone when I express interest in "operations" but confess total ignorance as to how to begin.
Over the last 8 year period, I have built and expanded a fairly large layout, double main line, large passenger station, coach yard, freight yard, engine service facility, sidings, spurs, whatever.
I have a decent number of freight cars, passenger cars, steamers and diesels.
I am a lone wolf operator with the only exception being a 2-day visit by a fellow member of this forum where we attempted operations based upon a predetermined "work order" sheet. it kinda worked, although neither of us had any idea how to set it up.
As a lone wolf, I go down to my layout and start running trains.
Operations? I am clueless. Where to begin? What to do?
I'm lost.
I went back to re-read this entire thread, and I immediately got hung up on 4-turn waybills. I still cannot figure out what they are.
But, that aside, I wonder if we could get back to - - - LOL - - -basics. And, I do mean basics.
I have never run an ops session in my life.
Let me describe my layout. It is pretty good size, and a significant portion of it is devoted to passenger operations including a 10-track passenger station, a 9-track coach yard, an engine servicing facility with turntable, round house, coaling tower, etc. Both steamers and diesels are on the layout.
I have a 9-track freight yard with 100 freight cars of all types.
The layout is large but, essentially, a continuous loop with four significant sidings - - - a farm, an electric gas works, an oil terminal, and a manufaxcturing district. The layout is flat, no grades, and no towns or villages so no names of destinations.
If you were to visit my layout and you had one or two hours to tutor me on operations, how and where would you start? From the beginning with a rank newbie to operations in mind.
Be gentle !
NP2626Thanks Mike! Your explanations are very in-depth and detailed and much appreciated! I noticed that where you are describing East and West trains, you also use an Alpha and Bravo sign before the train number. What does this mean?
NP,
The funny symbols were just what the Cut and Paste in Word button converted the East and West arrows to that were in my original. Alphas should all be East arrows and Betas are all West arrows. I was just too lazy to go back and correct all by hand after doing the first two as examples.
I appreciate the comments and agree that Operations might make a good addition to the topical forums here.
Not sure if I'll get it done today or not, but I'm working on an illustrated local run as my next step here in this thread, which should bring a lot of concepts I've laid out already together in a semi-coherent fashion.
richhotrain I have been a member of these forums for nearly ten years, and I cannot recall that the forum topics have ever been revised, although several have been suggested over time. While Operations is a noble topic for consideration, I could think of a few topics that ought to take precedence over Operations. But, if I were a betting man, I would lay down a few bucks that this will all go nowhere. Rich
I have been a member of these forums for nearly ten years, and I cannot recall that the forum topics have ever been revised, although several have been suggested over time.
While Operations is a noble topic for consideration, I could think of a few topics that ought to take precedence over Operations.
But, if I were a betting man, I would lay down a few bucks that this will all go nowhere.
Yes, I was actually a member of this forum back in 1996-97 and I think it has pretty much been the same since even back then.
It might be that they are more likely to consider closing it down, than expanding it! I've seen that happen on a couple of occasions. Running a commercial venture along with a forum that can cause strife and ill will for/by it's customers, I would think twice about that!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Thanks Mike! Your explanations are very in-depth and detailed and much appreciated! I noticed that where you are describing East and West trains, you also use an Alpha and Bravo sign before the train number. What does this mean?
I sent an email to Steven Otte about creating a forum just for operation, here is what he had to say:
Steven,
With all the focus on Operations and the dedication that Model Railroader Magazine has to the subject of Operations, with monthly articles from authors like Tony Koester and Andy Sperandeo why isn't there a forum topic dedicated to Operations?
Mark DeSchane
It's been a while since we've revised the topics of the Forums, but that's a good idea we'll keep in mind for next time, thanks.
This item is what I call PUDLE. On most lines, it's the locals that do the work of most interest in basic operations. In real life, there are often complex rules about what train does which work. On my layout -- and I'm suggesting on most layouts -- PUDLE is what saves a lot of trouble sorting out which train picks up which cars.
A critical part of PUDLE is the need to determine tonnage limits for you locos. It's this maximum number of cars the loco is able to handle that governs the limits of PUDLE for any train. There are also limits on train length, because sidings will only allow meets up to a certain bnumber of cars. This is more a factor for trains moving downgrade, as tonnage limits usually kick in before train length limits. Here it is:
>>>
PUDLE
What does it mean on your train order?
P ick
U p [and]
D rop
L oads [and]
E mpties
In short, PUDLE is a reminder to check your train’s car cards and the cards in the car card boxes at each location to determine if there are loads or empties that must be picked up or dropped. Unless specifically instructed otherwise, on the narrowgauge each freight train is a local and should work each station along the way. There may also be instructions on spotting or re-spotting individual cars in notes attached to the car cards. In general, return empties EAST towards the location specified on each car card’s “Empty Car Return To” field. While paying attention to tonnage ratings and maximum train length restrictions, always pick up empty cars at all locations up to the capacity of your train.
<<<
The basic concept can be applied several different ways. When it's just me, I know my way around the layout and am likely familiar with how the car got there, where it's going when MT, and the priorities of operating. When a number of visitors are operating, I'll write up switch lists, making it clear what they'll be dropping and picking up.
Loaded cars to be dropped usually have waybills. Dropped cars that are empty either are directed there by a waybill or they are dropped based on car service rules. Waybills are familiar now and need be nothing more than having the destination station and industry filled in, with MT marked in the contents/lading line. Sometimes this is by marking MT as one of up to 4 possible stops between loads on a waybill. Other times it's a waybill that just sends a single MT to a specific industry; I just write more of those whenever needed. Like randomnization, I locate car balancing in the car card boxes at each station. Oftentimes I can find an outgoing load in the Loads waybills slot. If not, I'll write up an MT directive on a waybill and send the car in from staging or elsewhere on the layout.
As the local comes to a station, the crew/conductor either checks the switchlist and matches it against car cards found in the boxes at that station or - in the absence of a switchlist -- goes through the card boxes and decides what gets picked up after any drops are made. In some cases, I use a pink Post-It note to direct representing of a car from one industry to another, etc. The overall priorities once the train leaves the station run this way, although switching is performed in whatever order most quickly accomplishes all switching:
Pickup loads
Drop loads
Drop MTs to load
Pickup MTs
With attention paid to restrictions of tonnage and train length, the conductor chooses to leave cars that will make the train too heavy or long at each station, also paying attention to what other traffic must be worked and in what priority before reaching the destination to get the maximum work done given the limitations. Generally, the priorities accommodate most loaded business given grades and siding lengths, which were given close attention in the design phase. If necessary, extra trains are called to pick up cars that didn't move when displaced by higher priority traffic.
I also put emphasis on car class or condition. In my case, all those 3000 series boxcars are the same right? Nope, too easy. Fortunately, Blackstone supplies extra tackboards printed up to reflect common usages and car classes. I attach this properly next to the door. The lettering is tiny, but fortunately formatted differently for each class to make it easy to tell them apart without reading.
Placarded Box Car Lading Restrictions
Placard lettering too small to read?
Box car lading restrictions are noted on the car card!
Class A – Food Stuffs or other Clean Lading Only
Flour Sugar
And Bean
Loading Only
Class B – OK for any lading except Food Stuffs or ore/concentrates
[Blank]
Note: If Placard is missing or blank, assume Class B.
Class C – OK for ore, concentrates, or other low grade lading
Assigned to
Concentrate Service
Between Silverton
And Alamosa
I think the formatting will come through, but what's important is that what's on the tackboard is rendered so it's easily recognizable by your crews. A car can be used for a lower grade product, but only if it's clean and won't contaminate the car. For instance, clean milled lumber is OK in a food service car, but not ore or concentrates. I mark the car card with the car class, which is really helpful when the car's a long way off to see.the tackboard.
The last thing here also is marked on the car card, which is the Return To: line. Once empty, the car is generally circulated back toward the Return To: line. If it can be loaded good, but otherwise send it most quickly as possible. I send gons to the coal mine, boxcars to the freighthouse, grocery distributors, and mills in the various classes,, stockcars to loading points, and reefers to places where there are ice houses and loads, etc, etc. This is another process that achieves randomnization of car circulation, while providing a steady supply of cars without tying up your yards.
Unless I can think of anything else that needs to be first, next time I'll be showing how a local operates over the line with lots of pics to put all this book-learning into action.
OK, going to try to post a few docs I use. First is my most recent train sequence:
NG Consolidated Train Sequence, January 12, 2013/1956
<-- EASTBOUND #216 The San Juan – Passenger, Silverton to Alamosa
--> WESTBOUND #461 Passenger, Durango to Silverton (meet #216 @ Rockwood)
ß EASTBOUND #2, Morn Passenger, Red Mountain to Silverton (swap RPO w/ #461)
à WESTBOUND #1, Morn Pass, Silverton to Red Mountain
à WESTBOUND #313, Freight, Silverton to Red Mountain
à WESTBOUND #325, Mixed, Silverton to Animas Forks
à WESTBOUND #469 Freight, Durango to Silverton (meet #461 @ Rockwood)
ß EASTBOUND #462 Passenger, Silverton to Durango (meet #469 at Rockwood)
Silverton Yard Switcher
Durango yard switcher
à WESTBOUND #219 Freight, Chama to Durango
ß EASTBOUND Extra, Logs, Cascade Branch/Tefft to Rockwood
à WESTBOUND Extra, Pass. San Juan Zephyr, Chama to Gladstone
ß EASTBOUND #470 Freight, Silverton to Durango
ß EASTBOUND #4 Pass, Red Mountain to Silverton
à WESTBOUND #115 Pass, New Mexico Express, Alamosa to Silverton
à WESTBOUND #3 Passenger, Silverton to Red Mountain
ß EASTBOUND #116 Pass, New Mexico Express, Silverton to Alamosa
à WESTBOUND Extra, Stock MTs Chama to Silverton
à WESTBOUND #215 Pass, San Juan, Alamosa to Silverton
ß EASTBOUND Extra, Stock, Silverton to Durango
ß EASTBOUND Extra, Mine Run-Loads, Hesperus-Durango
à WESTBOUND #221 Freight, Durango to Hesperus
à WESTBOUND #11, RGS Freight, Durango to Ridgway
ß EASTBOUND #222 Freight, Hesperus to Durango
ß EASTBOUND #220 Freight, Durango to Chama
ß EASTBOUND #6 RGS Passenger, Dolores to Durango
à WESTBOUND Extra, Mine Run-MTs, Durango-Hesperus
ß EASTBOUND #12, RGS Freight, Ridgway to Durango
à WESTBOUND #5 RGS Passenger, Durango to Dolores
I don't think we got through half of it in 3 hours. We only had 4 crews when everyone was on duty. Thing is, I have trains that are just waiting to be switched, loads and MTs to deliver, and 4 passenger trains at various stations. I can pick up the next train or I can -- to a certain extent -- start over again the next session with others.
This works best with passenger trains, as there is usually little in the way of switching consists. They circle around because of the modest luxuries I planned into the layout design, with loops and holding tracks. In fact I had to add it and intend to add more, express and other traffic, just to slow them down some more in the sequence the way it's actually been running with others.
By yourself, time is largely irrelevant, it's sequence that matters. But even there, once you start operating, you'll find you can jump around a little because trains aren't in anyone's way with only you out on the road.