I'm real glad I held onto these kits for years. It made having them affordable, one of the ways I saved money accumulating. I'm kind of flexible on era, the layout is big enough I can "backdate" the look to various eras. A lot of stuff stayed the same, so easy enough to look OK to me to run them alongside C-19s. I also was exposed to modern narrowgauge in Europe, so to me it's totally plausible building something the Rio Grande might have done if things had turned out differently.
But I feel your pain from letting those things go. They're gutsy, really need 24" min R, but do they do the job. I may weight the other one, too, although no reason. Togheter, they easily handle 20+ cars up 2.5%...and all the non-Blackstone trucked stuff is just not as slippery, I think 24 cars was the max, and they still could handle more, just makes no sense.
PSC does have some parts, but get 'em while you can, I suspect it's over runs from the several differents runs they did and won't be re-run except for things people are likely to buy for repair, like horns, that fit in with the more regular cataloged stuff.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I often run my DL-535s together on long trains, but they tend to tie up the line because of siding length limitations. Been running one on a passenger train, where they always have plenty of TE to handle things. One on a freight has it limits, despite being heavy and a great puller with 12 wheels turning. She'll shudder and buck when you reach the limit.
When building them, I noticed the fuel tank would provide a great space to add more weight, but I didn't thinking this wouldn't be an issue. Now that I need a bit more TE, I decided to drop the fuel tank and open it up to see what I could add easily. I managed to squeeze in 32 grams, bringing the overall weight to 335 grams. With a little extra power, she does her work well, straining but able.
I figured I'd mention this as there are many of these models out there, many which were assembled. The owners may not have realized how easy it is to use the fuel tank to add weight. It's possible that assembled models did have weight added at the factory, but I suspect not. There are just two screws holding the tank in place. I managed to unsolder one end and carefully opened things up. On reassembley, I decided to use gap-filling CA to limit the heat damage to the paint. A shot of matching satin black and I was back in business, although there's very little showing if you're careful when opening up the tank if you do have locos in WP&Y paint that is more difficult to match.
Dave,
Happy you enjoyed it. It's my second brass loco build. Hard to find these kits or others like them, but well worth it.
I wanted people to know there's no reason to let them gather dust. Life pretty much got in the way of a lot of things I've been working on over the last couple of years, which I've needed badly to do now to counterbalance and clear my head to chill from my writing. Don't be intimidated about building one of these kits if you get the chance. Get some practice with basic soldering skills before you plunge in if that's an issue. Other than that, this isn't rocket science. The parts are very high quality and fit well with minimal prep.
I'm even now starting to think I should bug PSC about making more, it's been that much fun. It's pretty neat to hear it transformed from the rattling hulk it was on Saturday to a pretty darn good loco as I go through it and adjust things. Not quite as quiet as I want it to be yet, like 60 is now, but give it time...
And how about another pic of 64 on the plow train. mwhile we're here.
Mike:
I was going to say that the offset on that drive line was a bit extreme but you beat me to it! Your solution was exactly what I was thinking.
I have yet to venture into brass although I have been tempted many times. Your example shows that addressing the downsides of brass locos is quite doable.
Nice work!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
A little more on tuning this model's drivetrain, some of which may translate into similar arrangements in other brass diesels.
The main issue with brass diesels tends to be noise from the driveline, which the brass sheell tends to amplify. In extreme cases, you'll also have binding and even get the driveline hung-up. What it comes down to is getting the driveline running true, straight, with a little slack but not enough to create slop.
This model uses a very typical driveline, the components of which are available from NWSL and other vendors. The shafts are either brass - as came with the kit - or stainless or other steel as NWSL supplies.The cups and balls -- what would be U-joints on your vehicles driveshafts -- are slippery engineering plastic.
What's the right amount of slack? Hollywood Foundry, an Australian custom chassis mfg, recommends around a 1/2mm IIRC, in other words, the driveshaft should be 0.5mm shorter than the distance between the ends of the shafts it is to couple. Obviously, you sometimes need to fine tune that small a measurement, even if you can accurately create the needed shaft. This can be done by filing the end of the shaft.
After getting everything else pretty much squared away I tuurned back to quieting the drive. With all the back and forth testing, plus break-in running, one end ended up with too short a shaft. I made a longer one and that helped. The other end was somewhat different. The shaft fit well enough, but the angles/offset of the driven shafts was pretty extreme. Here it is before I fixed it.
The solution? In my first DL-535, I went to trouble of tilting the axis of the motor, angling it to help lower the output shafts to be better in line with the shafts on the truck gear towers. I wanted to leave maximum space for an eventual sound install. Sound keeps getting smaller, so it was less of a concern here. I can still go back and do it if needed.
Here it was easy enough to improve. I simply cut about 1/8" off each shaft, since they were plenty long. You need to leave enough so you can slide the cup back on the motor and gear tower shafts to let you slip the intermediate shaft in. Don't cut too short.
This made a dramatic improvement in lowering the noise level and smoothing the drive by reducing the angle the driveline had to change through as it rotated. I did have to make a longer shaft, but was able to reuse the old parts to do it.
NorthWest Thanks, I hope they return soon.
Thanks, I hope they return soon.
You may want to drop PSC a line letting them know of your interest. It can't hurt, even though it sounded like there were no current plans to produce the kit or loco again.
Here's some pics of the decoder and lighting install.I had the chassis running as well as I could on its own. Without the weight of the shell, it's kinda jumpy, so it wasn't until I got everything together and went for a test run I found I had a problem and disconnected things again. Loud squalling led to figuring out the pinions needed lubed, mainly the rear one. Also had to do some drive shaft fine tuning.
Here you can see the other side of things, as well as the 4 wire connection that is all between the shell and chassis.
Generall arrangement when everything's hooked up right.
The nose LEDs. I use 1/4" ID Evergreen tubing sections for LED holders. Paint them balck to start with, the touch up as needed with black liquid electrical tape. I used 5 mm warm white LEDs salvaged from Xmas lighting. Note how the nose lights lead split to leave clearance in the middle for the gear tower.
Wiring taped to walls to clear motor.
The NCE D13SR decoder is tucked up in the rear roof clear of the gear tower below.
So that's the install. Once I got the squalling pinion gear calmed, things were still somewhat noisy compared to the well past broken in #60. So I sent it for a spin and that's helped after 2 hours going various directions and speeds.
I don't really plan to consist the two together much, but would like the speeds to match better. I've added a custom speed table and adjusted CVs 116 and 117, but things aren't very close yet. I think it's a matter of more break in running. Brass locos are a little different than more modern designs, which are designed to work right out of the box.
.
Thanks!
Unfortunately, not from PSC. I've seen completed models for sale on ebay, either from this kit or PSC's builds of them (several runs since the mid-70s intro), but don't remember seeing any of the kits come up. I needed to call to get my missing cab door (yeah, dumb of me to not check this kit when the first one came up missing) again and they did have that, plus a scattering of other parts. But the kit is no longer produced.
For reference, I bought these 2 kits from PSC at the 1996 Nat'l Narrow Gauge Convention in Durango. I think these were from the last batch of kits made, so they've been sold out awhile now. Cost was $250/each. Assembled models tend to sell from $500 up, unless you find a heck of a deal.
Excellent work!
Are these kits still available?
I decaled onto the gloss balck paint...
Then Dull-Koted it.
I put the LEDs in tonight while I await a decoder. But I took it out for a photo op tour. Here's #64 posed with #60, the previous DL-535, and several other narrowgauge diesels, along with the leading SD40T-2 Tunnel Motor for a size comparisons.
Not quite as big as a Geep, it can do its part when called on -- after the decoder arrives.
With the motor leads temporarily hooked up, check for any obvious problems.
Next is the basic shell assembly.
I next finished up the front porch...
After adding various castings and built-up rooftop assemblies, the shell detail is mostly complete.
It wasn't long before things were basically comeplete (3 views)
At this point, the poor thing is rather homely, coverede with resin and scorch marks. A bath in denatured alcohol cleans things up well.
Next is a vinegar bath, which puts a paint-holding tooth on metal.
After things are throughly dry, it's paint time.
Primed.
Painted.
I built my secnd DL-535E kit over the last couple of weeks at a more leisurely pace than the first. It was a much easier task the second time around and I think this one came out a little better in terms of fit and finish.I took a few more pics this time, so will post them up in case it helps anyone else.
This is what you start with...
First, build the pilots, walkways, and steps assembly first, as true as you can make it. Here the sides of the frame have been soldered to the walkway stamping.
Next, you attach the pilots and plow, as well as some other end details.
Next, you build the driveline. You'll tune it some now after testing on DC most likely. Keep in mind that this mechanism is "jumpy" without the weight of the shell on it yet.
I too have this model kit lurking in my cupboard. I had always thought that my set of instructions were missing, but I now see from your article, that PSC never produced them, leaving just photographs of the parts, and a research project for the builder. You have encouraged me to build my model. Thankyou
Just wanted to note PSC's outstanding customer service support. I was missing one of the two cab doors in this DL-535 kit, called PSC last Monday and the missing cab door arrived here one week later, no charge. Their rep said they don't always have parts for older kits, but they will make it right if they do have the part.
Now to find the time to start the build on my second DL-535...
NP2626 I guess Athabaska shops is still in business, here is their website: http://www.athabascashops.com/ Maybe Lazer won't work for brass, which I believe is etched for the most part.
I guess Athabaska shops is still in business, here is their website: http://www.athabascashops.com/ Maybe Lazer won't work for brass, which I believe is etched for the most part.
Yep, they have some great stuff. If I live long enough I might even be a Canadian modeler...
Maybe I already am? The DL-535 is sort of a Canadian model, right?
Yes, I suspected Athabaska might be etched. But that's OK, there is some fine work being done out there, but I think brass kits are an area of the hobby that someone could really build a business on. It's not something one can dive into with some practical knowledge and the capital for some extensive machinery and tooling usually. The bar to entry to photo-etching is a bit lower, but lots of issues with chemicals.
Bless all our hardworking manufacturers.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Excellent modelling!Nice Work!!
NP2626,
What does/did Athabaska offer?
In HOn3, PSC currently lists a C&S 4-wheel caboose and a 29' log car in brass. There are probably others out there, so if folks know of them, feel frr to post 'em here. I'd like to know more, too.
Can lasers shape brass components? That would be cool and suggests an area that might be profitably explored. Lots of prototypes lend themselves really well to brass construction, which is why it was the "gold standard" in model construction at one time.
The DL-535 kit has a number of components that required specialized methods beyond cutting and casting. The tooling must be exquisite, because the fit of the parts was really amazing, especially considering this was all done in the 70s, so few if any computers had a hand in making this. It's one of those really neat products of the analog era.
Mike,
It's nice you had the foresight to buy brass kits! I wish they were still offered as I would love to try my hand at a brass kit. I'm sort of surprised that they aren't being offered anymore as everyone and their brother seems to have lazer cutters now.
Maybe I'm all wrong, maybe brass kits are still being offered. If so, does anyone have websites for producers of brass kits? I know that Athabaska used to offer them.
Dan,
Micro-Mark, how could I forget? I'll check it out.
Richard,
AFAIK, the DL-535 kits are sold out. I've seen built models on Ebay, but don't remember seeing any kits, but that doesn't mean they're not out there. The kits were first released in the mid-70s. Runs of built models have shown up over the years, so PSC may have produced more kits at several points. Interestingly, my 1994 edition of The Brown Book of Brass has no listing for the built-up models of the DL-5353Es or any other WP&Y diesels.
There are plenty of potential NG diesel models. I have pretty good roster of them, as they are cheap motive power compared to most NG steam, although the DL-535 doesn't really fall into that category. Thus, I think diesels are an often overlooked way of getting into HOn3 or expanding you motive power roster relatively inexpensively.
Here's a list of diesel models I have in operation. I'm planning on starting a thread on these soon to describe each in more detail
GE SP#1 (brass, Jonan)
GE 70-tonner (plastic, Bachmann conversion)
GM NW2 (plastic, Kato conversion)
Alco export DL-531/Class 48 (plastic, Powerline shell on K&M Engineering chassis)
Alco DL-535E (brass kit, PSC)
Whitcomb centercab (plastic bash, with Athearn SW chassis conversion)
I've also ordered a Liliput D75 HOe/HOn30 diesel for conversion, which I hope will be a relatively easy conversion, since wider gauge HOm wheelsets are available for it.
That diesel looks pretty cool and like nothing else out there the standard gauge lines. Now the diesel buffs can do narrow gauge if they wish. The only stuff around previously have been the small 40-50 ton Plymouths, etc. This is a significant NG diesel. Is anyhting like this currently out there? I am 100% steam HOn3, but something this cool might entice me to do a build and kit bash to something special.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
Micromark has one or two brands of solder.
Per their website -- Stay Brite melts at 430F, and the Tix melts at 275. I think the Radio Shack is either somewhere in between. I use it (or one of their other ones, don't have it in front of me right now) for the electronics work.
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Thanks for your comments. One thing I did was try to stick to commonly available tools and methods. There was some speculation from a colleague that a resistance soldering might be required to assemble this model. That might have made things easier, but not having any experience with one means I'd be on a different learning curve. Having seen pics of brass assembly overseas, I knew that plain old soldering irons should work if I practiced good techniques.
I used Radio Shack #64-035E Silver-Bearing Solder for the entire assembly process. I'm not sure what the melting point is for this solder, but it's good stuff in general and makes a quick, strong joint. The issue is that you need to start with the highest melting point solder, then proceed to lower melting point solders. I may do this for the next one, If I can find a higher temp solder that I can then use my primary solder with. It would be good if there was a chart somewhere that would guide solder choice options.
I guess what I'm saying is that using different solders can be helpful, but isn't absolutely necessary in this case. Using heat sinks is another way to help. I use a short piece of steel bar stock to work assemblies on, as well as various tweezers, etc to draw off heat and protect previously made joints. Just being quick and neat in making subsequent joints also obviates many issues.
Impressive work :)
A hint for doing this kind of work in the future -- use "high temp" melting solder for the initial joints, then step down temperatures until you're using "low temp" solder (effectively the electronics stuff at Radio Shack) with the final detail parts (i.e. use 4-5 solders with different melting points). That way, you're not melting the previous joints you made...
I've had a pair of PSC HOn3 Kit-#10664 sitting on my shelf since I purchased them from PSC at the 1996 Durango National Narrow Gauge Convention, aging until they were ripe to start moving freight on my under-construction layout. I model the Rio Grande, with Durango as a dual-gauge interchange between SG and NG. There's a bit of standard gauge main with some switching and main line running. Most of the layout is narrowgauge, representing a much busier Silverton Branch. There, the D&RGW interchanges with my Silverton Union Rail Road, which is an amalgamation of the three little lines that went up to the mines from there.
I have 4% grades on 24" radius curves, so hauling tonnage uphill to Silverton is a challenge. I do enjoy my Blackstone and brass steam equipped with sound. But I really enjoy narrowgauge diesels, too. I want to eventually do a post on the entire NG diesel fleet, but here I'm going to discuss building one of these brass PSC kits, which represents the WP&Y 100 class Alco/MLW DL-535E locomotives purchased in 1969.
If the Rio Grande's NG lines had warranted additional investment, instead of shut down and salvage as happened, the just might have acquired modern diesel power very similar to the WP&Y's 100 class C-C locomotives. The DL-535 weighs less than a K-28, but provides nearly the same starting tractive effort as a K-36. Despite delays in the acquisition process, the first of at least two was finally delivered after some 16 years.
Some may have seen various pics of this build, which I started on last Wednesday, posted in the last Weekend Photo Fun. I won't repost those images here, but this is the link for reference:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/210155.aspx
When you start off, this is what you find in the box.
Note the "instructions" aren't really that. It's three pages of the various parts illustrated and identified. So at least you get to start with a clue... as this was my first brass kit build, that was a good thing.
A week later, I have this:
There were lots of hours in this, which could have been fewer if I didn't make a wrong move or two. All in all, you start at the trucks, build the mechanism, build the subfloor/walkway, build up the shell, build the "roof candy" on top of the shell, then finish up with handrails.
I mostly used a 25 watt soldering iron. I used plain old rosin flux, and lots of it. That's why it was so ugly in many of the build shots in WPF. To clean it up was easy, just a bath in denatured alcohol, followed up with some scrubbing in a spot or two to get the last of the sticky stuff off. She cleaned up really well:
You learn a lot about soldering as you go. I do OK with electrical components, but this is a bit different. The hardest is order of assembly when you have many small part to add, but don't want to melt you previous work. There were many points when I thought this is just too ugly, but I persevered and redid things when necessary. I cleaned it up more at the end. Then I found that paint covers up a multitude -- not all, but many -- of sins. First I shot it with gray primer: I then did multiple light coats of black and baked in the over for a couple of hours. The decals are Microscale, cut down to size. Here's my impression of what modern Rio Grande narrowgauge motive power would look like. I eventually want to add Tsunami sound. Right now, Blackstone has a 12-cylinder 251, but only in the full size Tsunami, no 6-cylinder like the DL-535. I also need at least three light outputs, because I need F, R and 1 more to run the Pyle Gyralite in the nose, so this wouldn't work with the Micro-Tsu as too few outputs, even if they have the right sound. For now, I installed a NCE D13SRJ and it gets things rolling. In fact, this is an amazingly well-running unit even without being broken in. It's also heavy, so will move that tonnage up to Silverton easily. I doubt that I will go through brass boot camp again when I build the next one at a more leisurely pace. After some doubts, I'm really pretty happy with the results. #60 represents the most modern motive power on my NG lines, will serve my customers many happy years, and then be an asset to my survivors. I still love my steam, but more and more, I like to mix the old with the new.
You learn a lot about soldering as you go. I do OK with electrical components, but this is a bit different. The hardest is order of assembly when you have many small part to add, but don't want to melt you previous work. There were many points when I thought this is just too ugly, but I persevered and redid things when necessary. I cleaned it up more at the end. Then I found that paint covers up a multitude -- not all, but many -- of sins. First I shot it with gray primer:
I then did multiple light coats of black and baked in the over for a couple of hours. The decals are Microscale, cut down to size. Here's my impression of what modern Rio Grande narrowgauge motive power would look like. I eventually want to add Tsunami sound. Right now, Blackstone has a 12-cylinder 251, but only in the full size Tsunami, no 6-cylinder like the DL-535. I also need at least three light outputs, because I need F, R and 1 more to run the Pyle Gyralite in the nose, so this wouldn't work with the Micro-Tsu as too few outputs, even if they have the right sound. For now, I installed a NCE D13SRJ and it gets things rolling. In fact, this is an amazingly well-running unit even without being broken in. It's also heavy, so will move that tonnage up to Silverton easily. I doubt that I will go through brass boot camp again when I build the next one at a more leisurely pace. After some doubts, I'm really pretty happy with the results. #60 represents the most modern motive power on my NG lines, will serve my customers many happy years, and then be an asset to my survivors. I still love my steam, but more and more, I like to mix the old with the new.
I then did multiple light coats of black and baked in the over for a couple of hours. The decals are Microscale, cut down to size. Here's my impression of what modern Rio Grande narrowgauge motive power would look like.
I eventually want to add Tsunami sound. Right now, Blackstone has a 12-cylinder 251, but only in the full size Tsunami, no 6-cylinder like the DL-535. I also need at least three light outputs, because I need F, R and 1 more to run the Pyle Gyralite in the nose, so this wouldn't work with the Micro-Tsu as too few outputs, even if they have the right sound. For now, I installed a NCE D13SRJ and it gets things rolling. In fact, this is an amazingly well-running unit even without being broken in. It's also heavy, so will move that tonnage up to Silverton easily. I doubt that I will go through brass boot camp again when I build the next one at a more leisurely pace. After some doubts, I'm really pretty happy with the results. #60 represents the most modern motive power on my NG lines, will serve my customers many happy years, and then be an asset to my survivors. I still love my steam, but more and more, I like to mix the old with the new.
I eventually want to add Tsunami sound. Right now, Blackstone has a 12-cylinder 251, but only in the full size Tsunami, no 6-cylinder like the DL-535. I also need at least three light outputs, because I need F, R and 1 more to run the Pyle Gyralite in the nose, so this wouldn't work with the Micro-Tsu as too few outputs, even if they have the right sound. For now, I installed a NCE D13SRJ and it gets things rolling. In fact, this is an amazingly well-running unit even without being broken in. It's also heavy, so will move that tonnage up to Silverton easily.
I doubt that I will go through brass boot camp again when I build the next one at a more leisurely pace. After some doubts, I'm really pretty happy with the results. #60 represents the most modern motive power on my NG lines, will serve my customers many happy years, and then be an asset to my survivors. I still love my steam, but more and more, I like to mix the old with the new.