ENOUGH !!!

[Anonymous]

and ... hey
If you don't want to read UP or Hizon stuff... read the subjet line and skip it

Oh, yeah... Topic starters should do a better job of posting the subject... not stuff like ENOUGH ... enough of What?

IOW- you, too, wasted the time of readers (like me) who didn't get the purpose of your post until we opened it.

[AntonioFP45]

Hello Bill Matthewson,

I think the reason that the topic you're referring to was deleted, not because it was bogus news (that's always easy to check), but because the "F-word" was used in one of the posts and there was absolutely no justification for it. As Northern Studio so well referred to it: "Pottymouths" and "much needed housekeeping".

The moderators give us a lot of latitude here and have very seldom locked or deleted threads unless it got too far out of hand. They have even allowed "arguments" and some "Flaming" however, we simply have to keep it clean. Since this is a hobby we enjoy at our leisure, that "should be" easy for us. As someone inidicated on another post a while back, young ones under 12 read our posts also.

If we feel we must disagree with a poster, just maintain cool civility.

10-4!

[philnrunt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

MAbruce,

Just what was it that Big_Boy said that indicated to you he needed to have a new posterior orifice installed?

Or were you just cranky today?

[:P]

I was kind of curious about that too![:p][?][:)]

[Roadtrp]

MAbruce,

Just what was it that Big_Boy said that indicated to you he needed to have a new posterior orifice installed?

Or were you just cranky today?

[:P]

[easyaces]

Sorry to see you go Dr. Bailey, but as with any forum, there will always be a bit of bashing here and there. This forum has been no exception. But you have to take the bad with the good, filter the through the trash, and press on with pride. I heartily agree with the others that there is still heaps of good info in here for the novice to the pro and we all can contribute in one way or another big and small !!!!!!! [:D]

[Anonymous]

If you want to see what a completely unmoderated web discussion site is like, go to [urlhttp://yourturn.npr.org/cgi-bin/WebX][/url] NPR's Your Turn. Lurk there for a day or two. When you return here, you'll be grateful for this place.

Edited to give link.

[Anonymous]

Maybe there's hope yet.

Looks like some much-needed housekeeping occured with the bogus newsflashes and potty-mouth posts gone into the dustbin.

Perhaps those so inclined could continue the UP discussions, bashing or otherwise, in one of the several threads still live? It doesn't seem too unreasonable to behave in the nomal forum fashion.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

fine....[:(] leave us here to die[B)][B)][xx(][xx(]
well have a good time without us

[Anonymous]

You may want to read my post in the Prototype section of the Model Railroader Forum - topic is: UP Wins Lawsuit !!. I hadn't read any of this thread (ENOUGH !!!) before I posted to the latest UP dealie, but I think it is appropriate to this thread as well.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is an edit to my original post and that referenced above - that topic thread has been completely deleted within the past hour or so. Perhaps that's a bit heavy handed in the censorship arena, but when an 'uninformed' spreads an incorrect rumor about UP winning a $17 million lawsuit against Athearn, there may have been legal ramifications with such slander (or is it because Athearn has been a big-time / long-time Kalmbach advertising account?). I do think that a rational expalnation is due from Bergie - not that I necessarily disagree w/ his apparent action. FYI - my replying post basically said if we all just stop replying to such nonsense and negative topics, the "sound of one hand clapping" will quickly fade down the page into oblivion. .
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do think that a separate Forum area for "off-topic subject matter" like the 'Coffee Shop' and the likes of the now-defunct 'NES', is an excellent idea, and has been proven to work on another Kalmbach Forum (Scale Auto). I suggest that some of you, incl Bergie, pay a visit to that Forum, review their very workable format of separating topic areas into distinct subject files, that makes it so incredibly easy to stay on top of certain threads while totally bi-passing those of no interest to a particular individual.

That format would allow topics like the aforementioned 'Coffee Shop', the 'UP lawsuit', etc. to remain near the top (which does, afterall,indicate that there is a lot of interest in that thread by some people) in their own section, and yet won't 'get in the way' of other topics in other sections that are of more interest to other members.

There could even be a 'teen section' - MR actually had one awhile back in the magazine, and I believe it was effective, for it gave younger modelers, with their often unique issues, a place to hang out - not unlike when kids hang out with their friends and wouldn't want to be associated with their parents, or old folks like me! It also would give them a place to brag and showcase their modeling efforts in a friendly yet competitive fashion. . .Kind of a place for newbees to the hobby, and when they are ready to 'leave the nest' and venture out into the cold cruel world of adult modelers, they would be just a click away.

That's my two sense. Bailing out of the Forum is not a solution if you see 'value' here. That 'value' should be nurtured, and if there's room for improvement or change - there always is - why not hang around and take a pro-active role in making a great thing even better? The fact that the topic starter doesn't have a lot of posts over time is totally irrelevent, anymore than I have a lot of posts. So what. I was just spending too much time online, and not enough time modeling - and isn't that what this Forum is supposed to be all about? Bye for now. . .

[Big_Boy_4005]

The term General Information is pretty vague. By that standard nothing is really out of bounds as being off topic. Personally, I don't view any of these topics as bashing, though many are redundant. It's simply the nature of the beast, and you get used to it. I was involved in the topic over which Bergie originally wrote that messsage, and later the topic over which he reposted it.

A few of us have even mentioned hockey here on occasion, though not as a seperate topic, but just in conversation. So, I'll bet you're a Leafs fan. Wild fan here. Are we going to have a season? Last week I rode behind Milwaukee Road 261, and the guy across the aisle from me was a Red Wings fan.

See, we have something in common beside trains. This is an important part of what happens here, MEETING PEOPLE!!! I'll be back later, and tell a story that has nothing to do with model railroading, but has everything to do with this forum. I think you'll find it interesting, though it won't help your railroad. It will be titled "An evening with Sask". Look for it here this evening.

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Perhaps, but you illustrate my point perfectly. You and Dr Bailey have been members for about the same length of time, give or take a few months. I have been a member for considerably less time. Yes, I have a very high post count, but that only means that I am here a lot, and very active.

[(-D][(-D] Please stop, your killing me. [(-D][(-D]

Perhaps, on the other hand, I think you may be illustrating more the principal of "quality over quantity".

QUOTE: I recognize your name because I have seen it on many posts during my short time here. You contribute to the forum far more than he does, yet he complains.

A lot of people have complained since I've been around (which is longer than you have BTW), what makes him so unique? And what's the big deal if he does complain? I’m sure the ACTUAL moderators of this forum will step in if something is out of order.

QUOTE: I don't want to see anyone unhappy here, but to me it has more meaning if it is someone I "know", and not just another screen name. I feel that I "know" a lot of the members here, because I have interacted with them. They are the ones who contribute regularly, like yourself Mr Bruce. [;)]

I hate to break this to you, but I doubt if anyone (including myself) really care if you feel like you know members or not.

QUOTE: Post count is not a measure of intelligence, it is a measure of participation. What a person does with that participation is a different story.

Last time I checked, post count meant NOTHING.

I think you need to give it a rest Bigboy.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TA462

I always said that its not the number of posts you make but the quality of the posts you make. I'm very new to the hobby and to this board. I think that the forum could be a little better designed and needs a moderator or two that is here everyday to delete the crap and to restore some order here. What is here so far is good but why not add an off topic area that way people can rant all they want about UP, the Coffee Shop post could go in there and all others not pertaining to MODEL RAILROADING. I would suggest changing the name of the 70th Anniversary Boxcar forum to what I suggested.

Be careful what you wish for. I really don't think you would like the forum as well if it had censorship regularly from the moderator. It has been tried on other forums, and people don't like it. This forum is being watched, so it is not a free for all, but we do have some laditude. The real secret is when you see something you don't like ignore it, which I must admit is easier said than done.[swg]

By the way, if everything said here had to be about model railroading, it would get kind of dull. We are humans, and for the most part like to be social. This forum isn't just about the trains, it's about the people who love them and work and play with them. The Coffee Shop is about meeting and getting to know the people who post here, not just their trains. I kind of agree that the 70th anniversary box car may not be the best allocation of resources.[:p]

Enjoy, after a while it grows on you. I see that you are pretty active here, and fast becoming one of the regulars.[;)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MAbruce

QUOTE: Hmmm, 58 posts in over 3 years as a member. I don't mean to minimize your contribution, mearly point out that with a forum such as this, you get out of it what you put into it.

A classic reply from someone with a very high post count. [(-D] [(-D]

Perhaps, but you illustrate my point perfectly. You and Dr Bailey have been members for about the same length of time, give or take a few months. I have been a member for considerably less time. Yes, I have a very high post count, but that only means that I am here a lot, and very active. I recognize your name because I have seen it on many posts during my short time here. You contribute to the forum far more than he does, yet he complains.

I don't want to see anyone unhappy here, but to me it has more meaning if it is someone I "know", and not just another screen name. I feel that I "know" a lot of the members here, because I have interacted with them. They are the ones who contribute regularly, like yourself Mr Bruce. [;)]

Post count is not a measure of intelligence, it is a measure of participation. What a person does with that participation is a different story.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Hmmm,

Sorry guys, I may ruffle your feathers with my 2 cents, but I do think some of us have been a "tad spoiled or complacent" by this technology. Being in my 40s now, I've seen tremendous changes in this hobby. Please hear me out.

For me as a teen "RESOURCES" like this forum were NON-EXISTENT.
I remember many times working on a model, running into a problem, wishing I could find other modelers to talk to, or was just curious about a locomotive or paint scheme.

Let's see, in the late 70s I had to:
Walk several blocks from my house-rain or shine, hop on a city bus (which ran by every 1/2 hour), ride for 35 minutes to get to my LHS (Chester Holleys back then), and often spend HOURS rustling through magazines to find what I wanted to know if no one had the answer. And of course I felt guilty if I didn't buy "something". [V] Then I had to rush back to the bus stop, rain or shine, as the last bus ran at 6p.m and ride another 35 minutes to get home.

I also made frequent trips to the big Tampa Public Library. All the railroad related books there were on prototype railroading, of course. I had to be content with what I could find. [8)][8)]

Zoom forward to 2004.
In my home. I walk into a room, roll up a cushy chair, fiddle with a keyboard for a few minutes, and WHAMO!------
[1] I get nearly 100% of my model railroad & prototype railroading questions answered! [:D]
[2]Communicate with fellow modelers, not guys trying to sell me a product! [8D]
[3] Instant help with modeling problems. [:)]
[4] Find out the latest info on the hobby's advancements. [:p]
[5] No guilt, no obligation to buy anything! [;)]
[6] No long bus ride, no delays, No getting soaked in Florida's drenching rainstorms! [:p]
[7] In addition, I get to HELP newbies and modelers that also have questions as well as offer constructive criticisms and opinions. [:)][:D][8D][8)][^]

Guys, experiencing these two scenarios has been like having gone from a westernStage Coach to the TGV Bullet Train! So it's worth having to occasionally put up with UP & Athearn/Horizon complaining. This forum for me has been valuable, and enjoyable! Couldn't put a price tag on it! Of course, just like your house, car, and family members, it's going to have occasional problems here and there. I too have been flamed. Shake it off, deal with it, contribute and move forward!

Peace out and enjoy, Amigos!

Well said, Antonio. Even though I wasn't around in the 70s, I still feel like I'm a little spoiled. Heck, I have a question, I post it, I get an answer. It's almost to easy.

[AntonioFP45]

Well worded YNCS! And in case you weren't told; WELCOME ABOARD!

[bcammack]

I'm sorry you are too important to be bothered by us. Perhaps you should start a new Yahoo group and moderate it yourself. It might be lonely, but you'll have the sort of forum you desire.

Good luck

[Anonymous]

Almost 40 years ago, the science fiction author Theodore Sturgeon began a speech to a science fiction convention with the words: "90% of science fiction is crud!" There was a loud gasp from the audience, then Sturgeon continued "But that's normal, because 90% of everything is crud." This last phrase has become known as "Sturgeon's Law."

I've only been here for a few days. I've been wandering around, looking (or lurking, if you prefer) at what the forum has to offer to me as a model railroader. Guess what? I've found that Sturgeon's Law is applicable to this forum. I have little or no interest about 90% of the topics. Since Sturgeon informs us that this is normal, and my experience is that Sturgeon was, if anything, optimistic, then I have no problem with this forum.

I guess, unlike George, I'll be staying here for a while.

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey

First, I want a forum that is a good resource for learning new things about this hobby. That resource is not here.

This is a sad fact. There is no guarantee of solid on-topic content on any forum that is not heavily moderated. I’m a part of a couple of more heavily moderated forums, and while the tone is far more civil, the traffic tends to be on the light side. My point is that there is a trade off that occurs and it’s always hard to achieve a healthy balance.

Keep looking until you find the one you like.

QUOTE: I don't need a "General UP Discussion" forum.

True, this subject has been beaten into new levels of absurdity. There is no shortage of those who want to trash something, but it’s up to the rest of us to realize that the fastest way to kill these topics is not to post to them. Unfortunately, too many here can’t seem to keep their fingers off the keyboard!

This also has me wondering if perhaps several have multiple ID’s and use them to keep a topic going. Hey, it may sound crazy, but it does happen.

QUOTE: Second, I want a forum that makes me enjoy the hobby, not one that turns me off to the hobby like this one.

Any forum (or club) can do that if you let it. I think you have to keep a perspective on these forums and the hobby.

1. It’s only a hobby, which is defined as something one does for enjoyment in their spare time.

2. This is a forum, which has no guarantee that the information is remotely factual. In fact, I find it’s mostly opinion and conjecture. It's more entertainment than anything else.

QUOTE: And third, I don't have either the time nor patience for the childish behavior and childi***hreads allowed to continue ad nauseam on this forum.

Maybe because there are literally a lot of kids on this forum? Not that it’s a bad thing, because they are in the hobby too and want to learn. But you have to give them a little slack because they are kids and we expect them to act like adults.

Now adults acting like children is another story. Not much anyone can do about that, except maybe just ignore them.

QUOTE: When (if) some of you grow up and realize you want to grow in the hobby, you might try some of the more advanced forums, such as the one on the Atlas website or some of the more MRR specific Yahoo ones.

Your choice. If this place makes you that crazy, then you ought to get out. I personally don’t take it too seriously (like this hobby). I think that there are other far more important things in life to get worked up about.

Overall I would agree that this place can get childish and the topics tend to drone on about the most inane issues. But what do you expect? It’s a forum! You just can't take it that seriously!

I will have to say that one of most silly (and even funny) replies on this thread has to be this:

QUOTE: Hmmm, 58 posts in over 3 years as a member. I don't mean to minimize your contribution, mearly point out that with a forum such as this, you get out of it what you put into it.

A classic reply from someone with a very high post count. [(-D] [(-D] Thanks for a good Monday morning laugh. [^]

Dr. George Bailey, I wish you well in seeking out a forum you will like.

[philnrunt]

George-
Last week, without knowing the facts, you were carrying on about Antonio and myself trying to get someone expelled from the Forum, when no such thing was said, and carrying on about the 1st Amendment rights of the poster, and this week you are ranting about banning people (one is the same that you defended last week) who make unpopular posts ( that seem to get lots of replys) and screaming that you are going to quit!
Whats up, Doc? Try to keep it in perspective. No reason to get crazed.
Doctor, heal thyself!
Otherwise, buh-bye .

[MudHen_462]

Antonio,
Once again, my friend, you have hit the nail squarely upon the head. I like so many others are not happy with the UP; MTH-Lionel; UP-Lionel; etc. issues that seem to do nothing but "rocking the boat", but in true USA fashion , if we really don't like something we can "vote" with all of our future purchases. I think that all of these litagations will result in bringing more harm than good to the initiating parties, so lets just wait and see.... and in the meantime we can get back to running our respective railroads.

HIGH GREENS and CLEAR TRACKS to you all,

Bob / IronGoat

[areibel]

I don't think you understand WHY he said what he did. He's just tired of having to go through all the spam posts to get to the good stuff. I can come onto this board and see the same subject lines on the first page all the time. NES, Coffe break, yet another poll, etc.. Yet ask a good question and it winds up on page two or three because all the BS posts keep pushing it down, so it might get an answer, it might not.
And the number of posts is directly proportional to the knowledge of the poster? Try "Quality not Quantity", not all of us are here to get more stars. I was interested to read the thread on using CAD, look at how long the many of the posters had been on the list and how many posts they had- many were less than 20 and they've been on here a lot longer than most.
No I'm not trying to quash any teen enthusiasm, it's just the way it is. Most unmoderated boards are like this, and some are much worse (try rec.models.railroad sometime). But I do wish Bergie would do a little more to keep the S?N ratio down a little.

[krump]

Zoom forward to 2004.
In my home. I walk into a room, roll up a cushy chair, fiddle with a keyboard for a few minutes, and WHAMO!------
[1] I get nearly 100% of my model railroad & prototype railroading questions answered!
[2]Communicate with fellow modelers, not guys trying to sell me a product!
[3] Instant help with modeling problems.
[4] Find out the latest info on the hobby's advancements.
[5] No guilt, no obligation to buy anything!
[6] No long bus ride, no delays, No getting soaked in Florida's drenching rainstorms!
[7] In addition, I get to HELP newbies and modelers that also have questions as well as offer constructive criticisms and opinions.


Exactly why I'm here!!!
Probably saves us all time and money in the long run. Better modelling with less mistakes (ie $) means more fun at the hobby.
(I expecially liked the WHAMO!!! part of this earlier post)
cheers

[Noah Hofrichter]

Antonio, I'm very glad for this forum, because I don't have to do what you had to do. I don't think there are many true model railroaders for miles around here, and so this is my only option for help. I've learned more things from here then I ever would have otherwise. I was inspired to begin scratchbuilding, something that i may have never tried other wise but something that I now love to do. I've learned a billion (exaggeration) thing because of this site.

I too just skip over 90 percent of the posts on this site. I've only been in one UP bashing thing, and I didn't even bother to post in it. It's not that hard to find the good stuff, you just have to look for them and weed them out. I only stopped at this forum because I thought it was model related, but I was wrong.

Noah

[Anonymous]

I don't know George. I am fairly new. I don't understand the childish rantings to let us know he is leaving, though. If you don't like a topic, don't read it. If someone thinks they are TOO GOOD for this FREE PUBLIC FORUM, by all means look elsewhere. I don't read many of the topics as they don't pertain to me or interest me. I do have to admit that I get all of my questions answered, either by direct response to my posts or by searching the archives. I have been on forums for Ford trucks, and they are the same. If you want to start paying for a forum, then I think you have a right to complain about it's content. Until that day, I don't think anyone has a right, other than the moderators, to tell us what we should or should not discuss, as long as it pertains to trains and the hobby.

MR. Tim McLaughlan[:D]

[Eriediamond]

George, hate to see you go. I do hope you read this before that happens though. First, let me say that I agree with you on the UP thing and that although it is not a big concern to me what UP does, it may be for others. For the next part, please bear with me as I'm not really good with words. I participate on this forum for several reasons, among them to give answers and advice to those that want it and to get help when I need it. However, I'm here also because of the kind and generous people that are here from all kinds of back ground and experience. I may not agree at all times with some of the posts or subjects posted, but then there are those that feel the same about some of what I post. I kind of compare this forum to a club meeting where some days it may take the whole meeting to take care of business and other days we take care of business in just a few minutes. I also have spent time on the Atlas forum and see no real difference there then here. If you find us dull or nonmodel railroaders, or not up to your standards, then I wish you luck with no hard feelings from me. We all have our seperate feelings on things and hope you find what your looking for in other places. Wishing you well, Ken

[Eriediamond]

George, hate to see you go. I do hope you read this before that happens though. First, let me say that I agree with you on the UP thing and that although it is not a big concern to me what UP does, it may be for others. For the next part, please bear with me as I'm not really good with words. I participate on this forum for several reasons, among them to give answers and advice to those that want it and to get help when I need it. However, I'm here also because of the kind and generous people that are here from all kinds of back ground and experience. I may not agree at all times with some of the posts or subjects posted, but then there are those that feel the same about some of what I post. I kind of compare this forum to a club meeting where some days it may take the whole meeting to take care of business and other days we take care of business in just a few minutes. I also have spent time on the Atlas forum and see no real difference there then here. If you find us dull or nonmodel railroaders, or not up to your standards, then I wish you luck with no hard feelings from me. We all have our seperate feelings on things and hope you find what your looking for in other places. Wishing you well, Ken

[Anonymous]

George is a major contributor on other forums and like a lot of others here is just passing thru .
He has tons of hands on experience, knowledge & wisdom.

When posts start to get smelly, like dog crab on grass, I step around it and move on to Trainorders
or Trainboard.

[AntonioFP45]

Thanks for the "heads-up" Dave.

Dr. Bailey, hope things go well for you.

[garr]

When I am scanning thru the radio dail and come upon a station playing heavy metal, rap, or any other music not to my liking, I simply scan to the next station looking for something I do like. I do not call the rap or heavy metal stations demanding that they change their format to my liking.

When I scan thru the posts on the MR Forum, or any other forum for that matter, and come upon a topic of no interest to me, I simply skip to the next topic hoping I will find something of interest to me. A ratio of 2 to 3 interesting posts out 10 is normally what I find.

Should I complain and threaten to leave because 70 to 80% is of no interest to me. Or should I realize the world is full of lot more people not sharing my interests and tastes(thank God) and they have just as much right to post and discuss topics as I do. The total number of topics posted daily is not limited, so the topics of no interest to me are not keeping the ones of interest to me from being posted. Actually this diversity is what makes the forum interesting.

Now which of these actions is childish and which is mature?

Jay

P.S. Antonio, I couldn't agree more with what you stated in your post above.