I've been into trains ever since I was 5 or 6 and received my first Lionel set. Then came Athearn HO around 10 or 11. I ran across a Model Railroader magazine a couple of years later and things haven't been the same since. Logging railroads have always been a big fascination of mine and when I use to see those PFM brass Shays, Heislers & Climaxs in the latest MR.... 'oh Wow and 'oh No...because I could not afford them. Well, fast forward some 45 years and now I'm retired with some extra spending money. I have rediscovered brass and have now been able to fulfill a boy hood dream. My display case has close to 2 dozen HO brass logging railroad engines with room for more. I could care less if they are worth it or not. All I know is I think they are beautiful and a day never goes by that I don't stop and look at them and say that to myself!
Bob
Seaboard Air Line Ry, "Through The Heart Of the South"
Logging Railroads: where the best *** geared engine ever made was the Willamette!
Edited to shut my big mouth and stay out of other people's business.
Fred W
Moderator, you may delete this post at any time.
G,
Aren't you the lucky one. I am earn the pay check, but I am not the CFO. Brass has to find "ways" to appear on the layout. Fortunately, I am still at the beginning of the construction phase of the layout. There is generally, only one or two locomotives on the layout at one time. This way, I can test the latest trackwork and electrical work. ALL other locomotives are back in the box, only to make an occasional appearance. Sooner or later, the locomotive will be out of "the bag".
Craig North Carolina
I have followed this thread and the answer to the "worth it" question is clearly: It depends. In that the discussion has continued for awhile, I'll add my two examples each involving brass and modern plastic steam:
Example 1. When I was hired by the police department in 1976 and thus had a regular paycheck, I celebrated by purchasing a brass PFM Logging Climax (1976 run). I've always enjoyed Climax locomotives, and I changed mine to a coal burner (different smokestack & details) and painted it for my private line. Then about four years ago, Bachmann came out with a 2-truck Climax in plastic with great detail. I ended up buying three of the Bachmann locomotives. One ran for about a year and the two others failed to run out of the box due to the split gear problem. All three are inoperable now - one was sent back to Bachmann and they sent me a shay instead. The brass PFM unit was about $300 new and items like it sell for about $450 now (my paint and different stack would reduce its value from "mint"). The Bachmann plastic Climax locomotives were $150 each at train show prices, and are currently worth nothing. The PFM Climax is noisy by today's standards, but it is still in regular use on my layout and was a far better investment than the plastic.
Example 2. Around 20 years ago a Maryland & Pennsylvania 4-4-0 was imported in brass from Korea by Alco. I bought two of them at $150 apiece new. I have heard that some of the locomotives from this company developed gear problems, but mine still run okay (they haven't been used much). Then "recently", Bachmann came out with the Ma & Pa 4-4-0 in plastic. The brass models have piston valves and the Bachmann unit has the older style slide valves more appropriate to my modeling era. The Bachmann unit runs much better than the brass. The brass ones have likely held their value, but haven't appreciated in value much due to that history of gear problems and the availability of the plastic model of the same prototype. So the Bachmann 4-4-0 pulls passenger trains on my layout and the brass locomotives sit in the display case.
Is brass worth it - it depends on what you want.
Bill
Aikidomaster Jim, I believe that brass can become an addiction. I can easily see where after you buy one, then getting the next one is "easier". Then one starts to think, well they look sooo good and much better than plastic, I will get a few more so that I have enough of the main prototype I am modeling that I can run just brass. What a trap this could be!! Then, one needs brass cabooses to go with the locomotives. And what about those great passenger trains that your favorite prototype ran? You just can seem to find plastic like that.
Jim,
I believe that brass can become an addiction. I can easily see where after you buy one, then getting the next one is "easier". Then one starts to think, well they look sooo good and much better than plastic, I will get a few more so that I have enough of the main prototype I am modeling that I can run just brass. What a trap this could be!!
Then, one needs brass cabooses to go with the locomotives. And what about those great passenger trains that your favorite prototype ran? You just can seem to find plastic like that.
Yes model trains in general can be an addiction.
Especially a problem when the CFO of your house doesn't approve, as I gather yours doesn't from what you previously said about ahving to hide it from the CFO I believe?
I am fortunate enough to be a "co CFO" in my household where BOTH CFO's are train nuts so when it comes to stretching the Santa budget for Xmas for example, we can agree!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
"..............well they look sooo good and much better than plastic,..........."
That's a pretty broad generalization that I would consider far from the truth. Fact is, properly painted and placed in a working model scene, much of todays "plastic" or diecast is better detailed and better looking than a lot of brass, especailly brass from 20 years ago or longer.
A Rivarossi Allegheny is every bit as detailed as ANY brass version and better than most of them.
I will once again suggest that over scaled details make models look like toys and in HO scale details that can be clearly seen at 3' would need to be items clearly visable on the prototype at 261'.
But what do I know, I'm just a hick with a pickup, some guns and some DC powered model trains.
Sheldon
"What many of you are missing about brass models is that from the mid 90's and on to current times it has become a hobby within a hobby and in several cases...a hobby unto its own. Most new brass (could be close to 95%) purchased today will never see service on a model pike, but make it's home on a shelf or in a case, and purchased soley as a fine art collectible."
Howard, that's all well and good and more power to them. Personally, I have no interest in collecting ANYTHING, so while I do see the "craftsmanship value" in brass models, my only desire to own any model is for the purpose of doing what you have done in your basement and what I am doing above my garage - building a model railroad.
Not to be too snobish but:
I am more impressed by the guy who restores a '57 Chevy mostly by his own hand than by the guy who buys a Lamborghini, nor am infatuated with the Lamborghini, with enough money almost anything is possible - it's those who do more with less who are really talented and inpressive to me.
Same with model trains, when someone takes a Spectrum loco, fine tunes its running, kit bashes it into their desired prototype, paints and weathers it nicely - I am much more impressed then when they buy a brass loco and send it out to the local custom painter.
Howard, I have the greatest respect for what's in your basement, about your living room however I am indifferent.
So for me, I will always:
Drive the classic cars I have restored/owned,
Live in the Victorian home I carefully restored by my own hand,
Listen to the 1600 "collectable" vinyl records I own,
And I run the few brass locos I own (only bought because of the lack of specifc models in plastic - and bought cheap at that).
Having been "snubbed" by a few "collectors" because I cut up, modified, painted, weathered or other wise "destroyed" some rare "collectable" for my own purposes, I hold their hobby in the same level of esteem they seem to have for mine.
And I will not let the "values" they have placed on these items effect my hobby of building and operating a model railroad. So the only brass I buy is what I find dirt cheap - doing all I can bring its value down to earth.
And while I am ranting, one more thing - I have no problem with plastic models, they are models, they are in my case 1/87 scale. They are by definition small and by nature fragile. I don't need them made out of brass in an effort to make them "durable". I am able to handle them without breaking them and have had very few "wear out" in 40 years. But interestingly enough, some that did have wear 'problems" where brass.
So, as previously stated, I understand those who buy brass to get the models THEY WANT, run them or not. But you will not see me spending much of my hobby budget on brass, means or no.
I have a few brass pieces. I bought them because I wanted them and not because of their investment value. I don't run them on my layout. You should only collect because you value what you are collecting. A lot of people have lost money buying collectables thinking that they were going to make a fortune, only to find the value has gone down and not up. I am however, amazed at the prices that people are paying for stuff on Ebay, including Athearn BB kits, Plasticville kits and Craftsman Kits.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
What many of you are missing about brass models is that from the mid 90's and on to current times it has become a hobby within a hobby and in several cases...a hobby unto its own. Most new brass (could be close to 95%) purchased today will never see service on a model pike, but make it's home on a shelf or in a case, and purchased soley as a fine art collectible. Most buyers of brass today do not have layouts, but some do have test tracks. Very few purchase as an investment, but enjoy owning magnificent models hand made by very talented artisans. Love of railroading is their common bond and hopefully not to sound snobish....the means to afford. Many collect either wheel arrangements, railroads, items from one importer, and probably several other categories.
Importers missed out on marketing only to the model railroad hobby, and even today, brass trains are a well kept secret among the collectible world. Just about everyone on the planet has some sort of liking for trains if not a fasination. Yet I have never heard of an importer setting up at a serious collectible show like the one held in Atlantic City.
Decades back folks actually played with their brass toys as they were in proportion cost wise to most incomes and there were few plastic and diecast competitors. Some nuts like me do run newer brass models, but like many.....respect them and maintain them to perfection.
HZ
Capt. Grimek How about brass bridges? Are the BLMA bridges likely to be any kind of investment over time? Have brass bridges from older manufacturers held their "value"?
How about brass bridges? Are the BLMA bridges likely to be any kind of investment over time?
Have brass bridges from older manufacturers held their "value"?
Specifically, I wouldn't expect any kind of returns on purchase of BLMA bridges. The appeal is just too narrow. For most layouts, bridges need to be customized or significantly modified to fit - both space-wise and theme-wise. There are collectors of locomotives, passenger cars, and caboose that are content to display their collections on shelves, which serves to jack up demand for mint versions of those items. I haven't heard of such for bridges, although there may be a couple.
Generically, nothing in model railroading is "likely" to have investment type returns. Some brass locomotives that are in fairly high demand, and were not made in large quantities have held their own, or somewhat better, against inflation. Think about it: if brass routinely proved to be a good investment, hobby shops that hoarded brass would be in great financial shape. Instead, hobby shops that turn over their inventory do best, and those that insist on highest price end up liquidating their entire stocks to other hobby shops at bargain prices. Like used jewelry, selling used brass locomotives requires lots of patience, and when you add in all the factors such as time, selling expenses, and inventory carrying costs, is not as lucrative as one might think. There is a reason most hobby shops sell used brass on consignment rather than buy it outright.
Two other considerations against long term investment success - the aging of brass collectors and operators, and the willingness of manufacturers to reproduce past successes and flood the market with new replacements. Both of these considerations have brought down Lionel post war prices significantly since their peaks in the '90s - and the same is happening to HO brass.
As the graying and eventual deaths of many brass collectors and operators continues, supply will increase as their collections come on the market. Demand will decrease because there are not as many replacement model railroaders interested in brass.
Reproducing successful locomotives in plastic has certainly impacted brass prices. A Tenshodo Big Boy from the 1950s or 1960s certainly isn't worth what it was in the early '90s. There are just too many Big Boy models out there, and many of the plastic or die-cast versions are now considered more desirable than the brass versions. An even better example is what Blackstone is doing to HOn3 brass prices of the models they are producing or are even just intending to produce. The plastic or die-cast version - if it's any good - caps the price inflation and price of the brass versions because of the increased supply of the model, and decreased demand for the brass. All it takes is for a nice plastic model of your favorite brass piece to come out, and watch what happens to the price.
As has already been stated, if you are a tinkerer, brass is easier to modify and work on than current plastic and die cast production. And most brass items probably have much better durability over the long term than their modern production counterparts. But the number of willing tinkerers is decreasing, and the number of modelers putting high operating hours on all their locomotives is also decreasing.
Personally, I buy those items I truly want (and can afford) without worrying about the future. I buy the models I do to enjoy as part of my hobby. If my heirs can get a decent price for what brought me personal pleasure, that's great. If not, I'm not around to care. I'm a tinkerer, so I'm more than willing to take on a brass locomotive at the right price that has a good chance of fitting in or being made to fit into my roster. If a better roster candidate comes along, the old is sold off. This applies to locomotives, cars, structures, and even tools. At present, I have 2 brass locos - an HOn3 FED 2-6-0 with a Roundbell re-motor, and an HOn3 Kidder 0-4-0T in need of rebuild. I have my eyes on several other locomotives when my wallet permits. I sold off all but one of my Bowser steamers because they didn't fit my era or theme. For geared steam, I am using modified Roundhouse and Keystone kits. The brass geared steam models I like are still too spendy. Brass cars don't presently tempt me - I like the wood and resin (and metal when I can find them) kits better.
my thoughts, your choices
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
Brass can become an addiction! I got started when an elderly member of my model railroad club died and left us some brass engines in very poor condition. I ended up with a Tenshodo AT&SF Hudson and Sunset Mountain. The challenge was to replace missing parts, renew fouled up wiring, repair various dings and scratches and get them into operating condition. I'd never worked with brass before but tinkering with free-for-nothing engines seemed a good way to learn so I plunged in and spent many a pleasant winter evening until finally I had two handsome runners to play with. Next I found a battered out of box AT&SF Northern at a train show. I stripped off its gunked up paint, overhauled the motor and got yet another fine runner to show for my efforts. Now I make it a point to check for abused and distressed brass at every train show I go to. Sometimes I find an engine with grave problems that take months or years to resolve and sometimes I find a real creampuff that just needs TLC to get it going again. I don't do it as an investment. I just love the engines. I feel the same way about them that my wife does when she takes in a bedraggled stray cat and turns it into a sleek and loyal family pet. Brass engines have souls stamped into them by the anonymous Japanese or Korean artisans who labored to make them as perfect as possible. You can't say that about plastic!
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
twhite Well, I can just go by my own experience with brass, which has been going on since about the late 1960's. I happen to model the steam era and two railroads (Rio Grande and SP). Were I to limit myself to current plastic, I'd have exactly two Rio Grande prototypes to choose from: the Proto USRA-clone 2-8-8-2 and the Genesis Rio Grande version of the UP 4-6-6-4. So, for my primary road, I have no choice but to go brass. Luckily, I've been able to find good-to-excellent running models of Rio Grande steam at reasonable prices by haunting the 'consignment' departments of some excellent hobby shops. Tom
Well, I can just go by my own experience with brass, which has been going on since about the late 1960's. I happen to model the steam era and two railroads (Rio Grande and SP).
Were I to limit myself to current plastic, I'd have exactly two Rio Grande prototypes to choose from: the Proto USRA-clone 2-8-8-2 and the Genesis Rio Grande version of the UP 4-6-6-4. So, for my primary road, I have no choice but to go brass. Luckily, I've been able to find good-to-excellent running models of Rio Grande steam at reasonable prices by haunting the 'consignment' departments of some excellent hobby shops. Tom
As Tom and WPAllen pointed out, brass is the only way you can accurately model certain railroad/era's. And as Tom points out above, it also may limit whether some of us can even consider modeling those roalroad/era's. I too am a Rio Grande and SP fan having grown up and spent my first 25 years in California and driving through Utah and Colorado a number of times. Of course my exposure to western railroading and my age influenced me to be mostly interested in 1970's and 80's era so that has solved a major problem for me. It would be a huge problem if I was interested in steam era Rio Grande because of the lack of affordable accurate steam power. Even what is offered in pastic are far from the typical steam engines operated during Rio Grandes last 10 years of steam. The UP style challengers were only on the roster for a few short years for example.
So the conclusion is brass worth it is yes, if its the only way you can model your desired RR and era, AND of course can you afford it and not have your wife threaten to divorce you. Well, mine threatened it and I my goals were much more modest.
As far as investment goes, if something comes out in plastic like the BLI CZ passenger train, then you can really lose money. I purchased 11 Kumata Challenger/High Country Brass/Oriental California Zephyr passenger cars at an average price of about $160 per passenger car. Once BLI brought out their plastic version, it took well over a year for me to sell mine brass set at a substantial loss, about $99 per car minus the consignment fee. Ouch.
The only brass I own now are two Palace Car Company Pulman Standard Prospector combines (as per Rio Grande Zephyr head end) and 6 brass cabooses. These are key models and can only be replicated via brass unless you do major kitbashing or scratchbuilding.
That pretty much sums it up for the average sch muck.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
My first brass locomotive was and N&W 2-8-0 W2 that I bought in 1984. I was imported buy NWSL. I had it custom painted and working lights placed. I still have it and it works great. I bought another one about 10 years later and thought that I would have about 3 or 4 of them for my first attempt at modeling the N&W. I had a small layout room and 24 inch curves for minimum radius. I never found an other models of the same type. But, when I moved to Roanoke, VA, I had a larger basement and the N&W bug had fully bitten me. I also, had been on excursions featuring Class J #611 and Class A #1218. So, I wanted larger steam locomotives. I bought a PFM 2-6-6-4 Class A. It sat in a box for years because I had no one to help me get it custom painted. It also needed a new can motor and regearing. I had to move back to North Carolina, to find someone in Virginia to help me. These problems are currently being addressed along with a Tsunami sound DCC system.
As stated many times above the reason I have brass is that is the only place I can get prototype steam locomotives for my Western Pacific railroad. For my diesel needs the new plastic locomotives have come a long way in performance and they fill the bill quite nicely. Same for freight and passenger cars such as Kadee and BLI California Zephyr passenger cars.
Now when we get to cabooses I'm back into brass as that is the only place to get a good prototype product. I understand that Athearn is coming out with a Genesis caboose that represents the last cabooses ordered by the WP. I will most likely pick one of those up.
I have converted most of my brass locomotives over to DCC using Soundtraxx Tsunami. I have remotored all of them. I have one 4-6-0 I will have to change the gearbox out. That is one thing I have not done yet and will be a challenge for me.
Were I to limit myself to current plastic, I'd have exactly two Rio Grande prototypes to choose from: the Proto USRA-clone 2-8-8-2 and the Genesis Rio Grande version of the UP 4-6-6-4. So, for my primary road, I have no choice but to go brass. Luckily, I've been able to find good-to-excellent running models of Rio Grande steam at reasonable prices by haunting the 'consignment' departments of some excellent hobby shops. And while brass might take a little more 'tinkering' occasionally, it's also extremely forgiving to work with. Ergo, I have a very respectable PROTOTYPE Rio Grande steam fleet representing everything from their 2-8-0's clear up to their big L-131 2-8-8-2's, and frankly, hardly any of them have cost me much more than some of the current Proto, BLI or MTH plastic or die-cast models on the market.
And though SP is a little better represented by current plastic on the market, I still can't just have a fleet of nothing but GS-4's, MT-4's and various classes of AC-Cab Forward 4-8-8-2's. So, again--it's brass for the other wheel arrangements. And again, with some 'tinkering', they can be made to run extremely well.
So, the decision is yours. Are you running a particular prototype railroad whose locomotives are well represented with current plastic and die cast, or have you chosen a prototype whose motive power only seems to be available in brass? Or, like Sheldon, have you chosen a 'free-lance' style, where all of your locomotives can be given a 'family' look by kit-bashing current available models?
I've heard both pro and con about converting brass to DCC, but for me, since I'm DC, it's a moot point. However, I've seen DCC brass conversions that run just as smoothly as any of the dual/mode current steamers on the market. So there's that aspect of it, also.
But brass need not bust your wallet, if you look around and absolutely CANNOT find what you want in current plastic. But you do have to SEARCH. And a lot of times, the search is worth it, especially if you get that loco you wanted at a reasonable price, and you put it on the layout and it just starts crawling happily along.
Investment? Sorry, I think those days are Long Gone (thankfully!). Despite occasional posts to the contrary, I think the Brass Collector with pristine and un-run locomotives sitting around in glass cases is a thing of the past. You want to invest, put your money in something like Walt Disney stock and run the darned trains, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Not all brass runs poorly out of the box!
Some of my recent brass locos like the W&R SP&S 0-6-0 and the Precision SP&S 4-8-4 run like oil on glass.
For a bit older, my Tenshodo GN 2-8-8-2 has always run beautifully, though it has that noisy gear tower of old. This was the first loco I ever owned that didn't have that typical pause between slow speeds and fast speeds. The speed increase was just linear from awfully slow to a scale 55 mph (like the prototype). I believe the gear ratio is 48:1--that can't hurt. A beautiful runner and box-stock!
I also had a couple of OMI SP&S (note a theme hear?) C-636's out for a spin--also real nice runners out of the box.
Lest you think I'm a total "brass booster", I've also got an old OMI GN NW-5 that is gonna have to have a total drive transplant. Yes, it's that bad.
Ed
Thank you for the information. While I have seen several Southern PS4's by PFM for sale, I have never come across the Southern MS4. There is a model of the Southern MS4 by Presicion Scale that runs for about $1400. I have seen a few of the PFM Y6b's for sale. I have one problem with the older brass locomotives. That is my ability to install new can motors or to regear them. For that, I need a lot of help.
I HAD brass way back when Tenshodo was a big name. It ran pretty crappy in those days, and I finally unloaded it. Have looked at brass a couple of times since then and passed. My layout has a roster of over 300 diesels today, mostly high quality stuff, easy to maintain and detail if I want to. My interest lies in operations (Santa Fe style) and I like to be able to set up consists of diesels and watch grain trains roll by with 3 and 4 units pulling. I don't like to tinker and repair and tweak.
Bottom line, at age 73, having been in trains since age 6 months, my first Lionel for Christmas, having seen the hobby develop and expand, I will stay with plastic for my motive power. It makes my checking account much happier.
PFM made 2 versions of the Southern MS4 2-8-2's as well as thousands of the PS4 4-6-2's. As for the C&O 2-6-6-6 if you can find a Gem version it is a really beautiful engine, but they are "tough" to find. The Key versions or nice and are "sweet" runners but my personal preference is the PFM/Fuji version but only the 2nd run which is also factory painted. These things have tremendous detail as well as superb mechanisms and are more heavily built than the key versions, Japan VS Korea.
Check out one of the old PFM Y6b's, although they are old they are quite highly detailed even by todays standards and are built like tanks so they'll run forever. I have 3 of them and they have been in more or less continous use ever since the mid 1960's. I beleive these were "Crown" models, not sure about that though although they have the extra details of a Crown model.
Mark
More about brass....
Try this one on! From 1973 to 1975 I owned a hobby shop here in Columbia, MD. In the window was an 11'x 6' HO layout that operated almost non-stop for two years. The prime mover was a PFM PRR K-4 from a late 60's run. I estimate that until retirement (now in one of my display cases) it ran flawlessly for over 6000 hours. The driver plating had long worn off, but it ran just fine....only I had to clean the drivers more often. It still runs great, but I wanted to keep it in original shape as I run only DCC now.....and it deserves a well needed rest.
Try this with today's plastic and die cast. I love handmade items of quality and brass models certainly fit the bill. There really is no need to compare brass and "other ". as it bolis down to what you like and can afford.
Craig....many thanks forthe fine words.
I have always loved the looks and detail of brass locomotives. I have a list (in my mind, can't write that done or the wife would find out) of brass locomotives that I would like to have. First, is the N&W Class A. That one I have. Next, in no particular order, N&W Class J, N&W Y6b, Southern Railway MS4, Southern Railway PS4 and C&O H8. I love articulated locomotives and am building a layout that will have minimum radius of 39 inches to run these "bad boys".
Howard,
You are one of my favorite modelers of all time. I have the book that you wrote along with all 3 videos that Allen Keller produced about the Piermont Division. I love brass. I have Sunset's Powhattan Arrow 5 car passenger set. I have 4 N&W cabooses by Division Point and am looking at Division Points new N&W passenger cars. I look at brass as works of limited addition art. I buy brass to run it not to have it sit on the shelf or in a box. By the way, how is the model of the N&W depot coming? I am working again on my layout (6 months off since the death of my father-in-law and my daughter's illness. There is no hurry with respect to the depot.
Sir Madog Well, you can´t solder a part to a plastic shell, can you?
Well, you can´t solder a part to a plastic shell, can you?
Five minute epoxy is one of my favorite modeling tools - it sticks everything to everything and holds like solder holds metal.
I do a fair amount of soldering as well, like the brass trailing trucks on my Berk to Mikado conversions.
And I very SELDOM use ACC cement, that stuff is nasty.
That one threw me too. If there's an appliance that was on the prototype that wasn't on your plastic model, between Cal Scale and others you can get it and add it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
A. Wallace Only if you want quality instead of quantity. You can add details to brass that would be difficult to add to plastic.
Only if you want quality instead of quantity. You can add details to brass that would be difficult to add to plastic.
Why are details difficult to add to plastic or die cast locos? Many of us have been doing it for decades.