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Brass, is it worth it?

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Brass, is it worth it?
Posted by Aikidomaster on Sunday, November 7, 2010 8:50 PM

I have a few brass locomotives and cabooses for my layout which feature the steam era of the N&W and the Pocahontas Division from Bluefield, WV to Williamson, WV. I am thinking of run some passenger trains in addition to freight. I read from individuals such as Howard Zane that brass is not only a good investing monetarily speaking but also with respect to holding up to long term wear and tear of running equipment.

Any ideas, experience or thoughts about brass versus plastic? I love the detail of brass and the look. Sometimes, it is hard to find the equipment one is seeking. Precision Scale has some Class A, Class J and Class Y locomotives. They are expensive. Are they worth it? I have some older pieces such as the 2-8-0 W2's from NWSL and an old PFM Class A that a friend is painting and installing Tsunami sound.

Craig North Carolina

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Posted by ARTHILL on Sunday, November 7, 2010 9:45 PM

Of course they are worth it, if that is what you want. It is hard to get them to run all that well, but it can be done. I have put sound decoders in three and they work. I have friends who have done several and they are fabulous.  They cost more, they take more work to run well, but they look great and can be made to run well. I wouldhave dozens if I had the cash and had started earlier. I still have one on hand to get working and maybe will get to that this winter.

If you think you have it right, your standards are too low. my photos http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a235/ARTHILL/ Art
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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, November 7, 2010 9:53 PM

Well, for me in most cases the answer is no. BUT, I am mostly a freelance modeler, and I like to build or kit bash (or RTR bash these days). So I can usually find/build what I need without the high price of brass.

I only have two pieces of brass, and have only owned one additional piece in all my 40 years in the hobby. But I have worked on more than few for others.

Durable - well yes and no - repairable is a better term. They wear out, break, have problems, etc. like anything else. But, the nature of their construction does allow them to be repaired in most all casees.

Admittedly that is not always the case with mass produced plastic and die cast locos.

As for brass rolling stock, too rich for my blood when I can just build it. And with what's out there in plastic today - why?

The two brass pieces I have are USRA light Pacifics. My roster needed them and no good quality plastic one has EVER been offered (why is that?). But my brass ones now have plastic tenders and have been reworked and detailed a bit, as older brass often needs.

Now, if brass is the only way to get the stuff you want for your prototype, and you are willing to spend the money - go for it. But don't do it as an investment. Much of the used brass on the market as we speak is being sold at fire sale prices compared to what it was bought for. The market for most of it is way down. How do you think I got two USRA Pacifics - one was $200, the other only $100. And the $200 one is a real nice PFM.

One other point, detail for detail, a good model is a good model and properly painted no one knows what its made out of - except the owner. Much of what is out there in plastic/die cast is BETTER detailed than a lot of older brass.

I'm not anti brass, I just don't need it meet my modeling goals, so I would rather spend my money elsewhere, especially since I like to build models, not just buy and run them.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Howard Zane on Sunday, November 7, 2010 11:35 PM

Brass as an investment? Prior to mid 1997, possibly, but only for certain items... be it old and then considererd rare, or for some of the new crop coming from Korea and built by Samhongsa for importers such as W&R and Challenger. Brass as fine art? Most definetly, but again such as in purchasing other fine art, the buyer must be astute.

When I ran my brass sales business, I rarely advised buyers to purchase for possible profit, but only because they want to own the model. Several factors have contributed to what many see as a decline in brass sales and all around interest. The first would be pricing, which is now for new imports out of the reach of most modelers; the current economy; the influx of really excellent die cast and plastic counterparts; and now being  several generations away from steam which is really the crux of brass models. Also, losing many of the once serious brass afficiandos to retirement and death.

For a counter arguement, log onto www.brasstrains.com . This is a completely professional and extremely well run business that has taken a product in which many see in decline, and has done rather well....actually incredibly well! Dan Glasure, the proprietor has written an excellent book on this very subject. It will answer many questions.

For the person modeling.....let's say N&W in 1948, to complete his desired roster, this modeler will have to turn to brass until what he is searching for is mass produced in plastic or die cast.

HZ

Howard Zane
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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Sunday, November 7, 2010 11:38 PM

 

I have never seen any evidence that shows brass trains (or any other trains) to be a good investment over the long term.  There may be a very few that have done well, or a period of a year or 2 when brass prices rose faster than the stock market, but these are the exception.  And how do you pick them in advance?  And then of course there is the problem that you buy at retail and sell at wholesale (or have the hassle of selling your them yourself through eBay or other media and still may take a loss).  I think you are better off investing in the stock market.  Oh and don't run them as that lowers their value.

Worth it?  Up to you.  I will consider them if they fill a need and the price is not too high.  I own 2 pieces of brass, both Sn2.  One is a Forney locomotive, the other is a passenger car.  I bought these because I have an interest in Sn2 and there are no other locomotives or passenger cars available in Sn2.  These will let me get started when I get into building a small Sn2 layout.  But the rest of my locomotives will be kitbashed MDC HOn3 kits (that I bought when they were still available) and the cars will be mostly scratchbuilt though I do have a few freight car kits.  On the standard gauge side I have more than enough non brass locomotives and cars to meet my operational needs even for the large layout I'm planning.

Enjoy

Paul

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Posted by A. Wallace on Sunday, November 7, 2010 11:46 PM

Only if you want quality instead of quantity. You can add details to brass that would be difficult to add to plastic.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 8, 2010 12:10 AM

The answer is a clear yes and no!

If your favorite prototype is available only as a brass loco, well, then you don´t have much of an option other than to buy brass. If it is available as a plastic or die-cast loco, I´d go for that one, for reasons of price or a better mechanism.

In any case I would not see brass locos as an investment.

I am right now pondering to buy either a used brass Key Imports D&RGW C-19 or the to be released Blackstone Model. For the price of the brass model, I get the Blackstone version painted and lettered, with a Tsunami sound decoder to boot. I guess I will be going for the Blackstone Model...

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Posted by Forty Niner on Monday, November 8, 2010 12:29 AM

Well, where should we start? Investment? I have brass that I bought in the 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's and I'm talking about "new" items at the time, have they incresed in value, no doubt they have. In some cases many times their original value, others, not so much, it all depends on the model, literally. Some that were made have incresed drastically such as Rock Island 4-8-4's and 4-8-2's for starters both of which I bought new for under $200 a piece and now bring upwards of $1000 a piece as an example. Now obviously not all brass has gone up by that amount but enough of it has that there is truth to what Howard Zane says and he has been into brass for enough years to know. Now this rule applies darn near exclusively to brass "steam" locos only. Brass diesels, freight cars, (with exceptions of course), cabooses, (again with exceptions), and passenger cars have generally taken it in the "shorts" as a result of the high quality plastic available. Again, there are always exceptions to this such as Harriman passenger cars but as soon as somebody figures out there is a very strong market for them that will change as well.

Now let's discuss performance, brass has almost always required someone who has knowledge and ability if they intend to actually "run" their engines, that said I have been painting and fine tuning brass since the mid 1960's and again with some exceptions have never had a problem in making them run extremely smooth in the "as built" configuration. NWSL also makes fine replacement gearboxes and can motors to further enhance the running qualities of almost any brass "steam" locomotive and they will continue to do this for many, many years as I have some fine examples that I purchased in the 1960's that run as smooth as any plastic steam I have ever seen in todays market. So would you consider 40 years and still going a good record? I certainly would and would be quite surprised to see any of todays crop of plastic steamers still running in 20 years let alone 40+.

Details? Yes and no is the best answer here, some of the early brass was a bit "sparse" on detail but starting in the mid 1960's this began to change. A prime example of this was Akane, a long gone brand now, they started out making good quality engines that ran very well but didn't have the details we see today, but again in the mid 1960's this started changing and they ended up producing some very highly detailed steam engines which also ran very well and were eventually sold under the brand name of "Gem Models". PFM followed suit in this area and Max Gray led the way with better running models with better detailing. Max Gray later became Balboa which in turn became "Westside" which finally became Key Imports which by that time were using Korean builders such as Samhongsa.

As for the "new" brass on the market, it is almost museum quailty with museum prices to match, I wouldn't go there if you want to actaully run them, not that they don't run beautifully, I just wonder if they are really being designed for that usage anymore.

I too have an interest in N&W steam and I run the Gem Class J's, late run PFM Class A's, PFM Class Y6b's, NWSL Class W's, NKP Class Z's, and LMB 4-8-0's. I have tuned them all and installed NWSL Sagami can motors in them, they are run on straight DC only and all run beautifully. I have considered changing to NWSL gearboxes but they run so well the way they are I will probably concentrate on more pressing issues.

Oh, and one final thought, they all pull extremely well without any added weight or traction tires.

There's an old saying my grandmother used to tell me, "quailty" never goes out of style and it will always command the best prices, there's a big difference between "handbuilt" and assembly lines.

There's nothing wrong with the current crop of plastic or cast steamers but they will never compare to "handbuilt" brass for quality.

And yes, I have both...........

Mark

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Posted by Flashwave on Monday, November 8, 2010 1:19 AM

For the most part, I'd say "No". But only in regards to things that are eithe rlikely to be mass pruced in plastic, or have been. If you want a good looking model of one of the Theatre cars like UP's Idaho, you largely only have one option. Overland. Also applies to a few one-off cars with EXTREME paintjobs on them, like the Salt Lake Olympics train.

BUT, a grwing number of engines like the A Y and J you mentioned have been done and done well in Plastic, between Bachmann, Proto, BLI/Precision Craft, even (horror of horrors) MTH, it just doesn't seem for me to get any better in Brass.

-Morgan

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Posted by galaxy on Monday, November 8, 2010 7:54 AM

For me, no it is not worth it. I simply can't afford it, so even if it was a bargain i couldn't afford it.

That said, I have read numerous complaints about the brass models when brass comes up, not quite as much as plastics, but lets face it plastic has a wider following.

On the other hand, some will swear by their brass. ANd for those, if they can afford what would be 5.5 monthly payments on my new to me minivan, they should go for it it it's what they like.

Unless it is gold or other precious metals traded in ETFs available onthe market or in ingots, coinage etc, even if the price goes up, do NOT ever consider a niche hobby item to be worth more than scrap metal at best, It is only a good investement/hedge against inflation IF IF IF someone is willing to or has the where-with-all to pay for it and buy it during a recession/depression. ANd brass ain't as precious as gold, silver titanium etc. Ive seen cheap brass lcoos sold on ebay as well as seen expensive ones not sell.

Converting brass to DCC can be a pain as I read it, as you have to isolate metal from metal, but I guess some plastic motors have to too. I would have to pay for it to be doen as I am not electronically inclined and can burn out a zippo cigarette lighter {and I don;t smoke}

Seems to me to spend $1000 {5.5 payments} on a loco I have to immediately take apart and "tweak" to get it to run,, or to fiddle with frequently as some have complained they do with brass is not for me! Metal wears out and fatigues as we all know, even the metal parts in the plastic shells.

I will stick with my plastic shell trains thank you.

-G .

Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.

 HO and N Scale.

After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, November 8, 2010 8:52 AM

A. Wallace

Only if you want quality instead of quantity. You can add details to brass that would be difficult to add to plastic.

Why are details difficult to add to plastic or die cast locos? Many of us have been doing it for decades.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, November 8, 2010 10:18 AM

 That one threw me too. If there's an appliance that was on the prototype that wasn't on your plastic model, between Cal Scale and others you can get it and add it.

                --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 8, 2010 10:58 AM

Well, you can´t solder a part to a plastic shell, can you?

LaughLaughLaugh

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, November 8, 2010 11:08 AM

Sir Madog

Well, you can´t solder a part to a plastic shell, can you?

LaughLaughLaugh

Five minute epoxy is one of my favorite modeling tools - it sticks everything to everything and holds like solder holds metal.

I do a fair amount of soldering as well, like the brass trailing trucks on my Berk to Mikado conversions.

And I very SELDOM use ACC cement, that stuff is nasty.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Aikidomaster on Monday, November 8, 2010 11:09 AM

Howard,

You are one of my favorite modelers of all time. I have the book that you wrote along with all 3 videos that Allen Keller produced about the Piermont Division. I love brass. I have Sunset's Powhattan Arrow 5 car passenger set. I have 4 N&W cabooses by Division Point and am looking at Division Points new N&W passenger cars. I look at brass as works of limited addition art. I buy brass to run it not to have it sit on the shelf or in a box. By the way, how is the model of the N&W depot coming? I am working again on my layout (6 months off since the death of my father-in-law and my daughter's illness. There is no hurry with respect to the depot.

Craig North Carolina

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Posted by Aikidomaster on Monday, November 8, 2010 11:35 AM

I have always loved the looks and detail of brass locomotives. I have a list (in my mind, can't write that done or the wife would find out) of brass locomotives that I would like to have. First, is the N&W Class A. That one I have. Next, in no particular order, N&W Class J, N&W Y6b, Southern Railway MS4, Southern Railway PS4 and C&O H8. I love articulated locomotives and am building a layout that will have minimum radius of 39 inches to run these "bad boys".Laugh

Craig North Carolina

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Posted by Howard Zane on Monday, November 8, 2010 7:05 PM

More about brass....

Try this one on! From 1973 to 1975 I owned a hobby shop here in Columbia, MD. In the window was an 11'x 6' HO layout that operated almost non-stop for two years. The prime mover was a PFM PRR K-4 from a late 60's run. I estimate that until retirement (now in one of my display cases) it ran flawlessly for over 6000 hours. The driver plating had long worn off, but it ran just fine....only I had to clean the drivers more often. It still runs great, but I wanted to keep it in original shape as I run only DCC now.....and it deserves a well needed rest.

Try this with today's plastic and die cast. I love handmade items of quality and brass models certainly fit the bill. There really is no need to compare brass and "other ". as it bolis down to what you like and can afford.

Craig....many thanks forthe fine words.

HZ

Howard Zane
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Posted by Forty Niner on Monday, November 8, 2010 9:19 PM

PFM made 2 versions of the Southern MS4 2-8-2's as well as thousands of the PS4 4-6-2's. As for the C&O 2-6-6-6 if you can find a Gem version it is a really beautiful engine, but they are "tough" to find. The Key versions or nice and are "sweet" runners but my personal preference is the PFM/Fuji version but only the 2nd run which is also factory painted. These things have tremendous detail as well as superb mechanisms and are more heavily built than the key versions, Japan VS Korea.

Check out one of the old PFM Y6b's, although they are old they are quite highly detailed even by todays standards and are built like tanks so they'll run forever. I have 3 of them and they have been in more or less continous use ever since the mid 1960's. I beleive these were "Crown" models, not sure about that though although they have the extra details of a Crown model.

Mark

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Posted by pastorbob on Tuesday, November 9, 2010 8:30 AM

I HAD brass way back when Tenshodo was a big name.  It ran pretty crappy in those days, and I finally unloaded it.  Have looked at brass a couple of times since then and passed.  My layout has a roster of over 300 diesels today, mostly high quality stuff, easy to maintain and detail if I want to.  My interest lies in operations (Santa Fe style) and I like to be able to set up consists of diesels and watch grain trains roll by with 3 and 4 units pulling.  I don't like to tinker and repair and tweak.

Bottom line, at age 73, having been in trains since age 6 months, my first Lionel for Christmas, having seen the hobby develop and expand, I will stay with plastic for my motive power.  It makes my checking account much happier.

Bob

Bob Miller http://www.atsfmodelrailroads.com/
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Posted by Aikidomaster on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 4:27 PM

Thank you for the information. While I have seen several Southern PS4's by PFM for sale, I have never come across the Southern MS4. There is a model of the Southern MS4 by Presicion Scale that runs for about $1400. I have seen a few of the PFM Y6b's for sale. I have one problem with the older brass locomotives. That is my ability to install new can motors or to regear them. For that, I need a lot of help.

Craig North Carolina

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Posted by 7j43k on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 6:36 PM

Not all brass runs poorly out of the box!

Some of my recent brass locos like the W&R SP&S 0-6-0 and the Precision SP&S 4-8-4 run like oil on glass.

For a bit older, my Tenshodo GN 2-8-8-2 has always run beautifully, though it has that noisy gear tower of old.  This was the first loco I ever owned that didn't have that typical pause between slow speeds and fast speeds.  The speed increase was just linear from awfully slow to a scale 55 mph (like the prototype).  I believe the gear ratio is 48:1--that can't hurt.  A beautiful runner and box-stock!

I also had a couple of OMI SP&S (note a theme hear?) C-636's out for a spin--also real nice runners out of the box.

Lest you think I'm a total "brass booster", I've also got an old OMI GN NW-5 that is gonna have to have a total drive transplant.  Yes, it's that bad.

 

Ed

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Posted by twhite on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 6:42 PM

Well, I can just go by my own experience with brass, which has been going on since about the late 1960's.  I happen to model the steam era and two railroads (Rio Grande and SP). 

Were I to limit myself to current plastic, I'd have exactly two Rio Grande prototypes to choose from: the Proto USRA-clone 2-8-8-2 and the Genesis Rio Grande version of the UP 4-6-6-4.   So, for my primary road, I have no choice but to go brass.  Luckily, I've been able to find good-to-excellent running models of Rio Grande steam at reasonable prices by haunting the 'consignment' departments of some excellent hobby shops.   And while brass might take a little more 'tinkering' occasionally, it's also extremely forgiving to work with.  Ergo, I have a very respectable PROTOTYPE Rio Grande steam fleet representing everything from their 2-8-0's clear up to their big L-131 2-8-8-2's, and frankly, hardly any of them have cost me much more than some of the current Proto, BLI or MTH plastic or die-cast models on the market. 

And though SP is a little better represented by current plastic on the market, I still can't just have a fleet of nothing but GS-4's, MT-4's and various classes of AC-Cab Forward 4-8-8-2's.  So, again--it's brass for the other wheel arrangements.  And again, with some 'tinkering', they can be made to run extremely well. 

So, the decision is yours.  Are you running a particular prototype railroad whose locomotives are well represented with current plastic and die cast, or have you chosen a prototype whose motive power only seems to be available in brass?   Or, like Sheldon, have you chosen a 'free-lance' style, where all of your locomotives can be given a 'family' look by kit-bashing current available models? 

I've heard both pro and con about converting brass to DCC, but for me, since I'm DC, it's a moot point.  However, I've seen DCC brass conversions that run just as smoothly as any of the dual/mode current steamers on the market.   So there's that aspect of it, also. 

But brass need not bust your wallet, if you look around and absolutely CANNOT find what you want in current plastic.  But you do have to SEARCH.  And a lot of times, the search is worth it, especially if you get that loco you wanted at a reasonable price, and you put it on the layout and it just starts crawling happily along. 

Investment?  Sorry,  I think those days are Long Gone (thankfully!).  Despite occasional posts to the contrary, I think the Brass Collector with pristine and un-run locomotives sitting around in glass cases is a thing of the past.   You want to invest, put your money in something like Walt Disney stock and run the darned trains, LOL!Stick out tongue

Tom Big Smile

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Posted by WPAllen on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 7:07 PM

As stated many times above the reason I have brass is that is the only place I can get prototype steam locomotives for my Western Pacific railroad.  For my diesel needs the new plastic locomotives have come a long way in performance and they fill the bill quite nicely. Same for freight and passenger cars such as Kadee and BLI California Zephyr passenger cars.

Now when we get to cabooses I'm back into brass as that is the only place to get a good prototype product. I understand that Athearn is coming out with a Genesis caboose that represents the last cabooses ordered by the WP. I will most likely pick one of those up.

I have converted most of my brass locomotives over to DCC using Soundtraxx Tsunami. I have remotored all of them. I have one 4-6-0 I will have to change the gearbox out. That is one thing I have not done yet and will be a challenge for me. 

 

 

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Posted by Aikidomaster on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 7:11 PM

My first brass locomotive was and N&W 2-8-0 W2 that I bought in 1984. I was imported buy NWSL. I had it custom painted and working lights placed. I still have it and it works great. I bought another one about 10 years later and thought that I would have about 3 or 4 of them for my first attempt at modeling the N&W. I had a small layout room and 24 inch curves for minimum radius. I never found an other models of the same type. But, when I moved to Roanoke, VA, I had a larger basement and the N&W bug had fully bitten me. I also, had been on excursions featuring Class J #611 and Class A #1218. So, I wanted larger steam locomotives. I bought a PFM 2-6-6-4 Class A. It sat in a box for years because I had no one to help me get it custom painted. It also needed a new can motor and regearing. I had to move back to North Carolina, to find someone in Virginia to help me. These problems are currently being addressed along with a Tsunami sound DCC system.

Craig North Carolina

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Thursday, November 11, 2010 5:46 PM

twhite

Well, I can just go by my own experience with brass, which has been going on since about the late 1960's.  I happen to model the steam era and two railroads (Rio Grande and SP). 

Were I to limit myself to current plastic, I'd have exactly two Rio Grande prototypes to choose from: the Proto USRA-clone 2-8-8-2 and the Genesis Rio Grande version of the UP 4-6-6-4.   So, for my primary road, I have no choice but to go brass.  Luckily, I've been able to find good-to-excellent running models of Rio Grande steam at reasonable prices by haunting the 'consignment' departments of some excellent hobby shops.   Tom Big Smile

As Tom and WPAllen pointed out, brass is the only way you can accurately model certain railroad/era's.  And as Tom points out above, it also may limit whether some of us can even consider modeling those roalroad/era's.  I too am a Rio Grande and SP fan having grown up and spent my first 25 years in California and driving through Utah and Colorado a number of times.   Of course my exposure to western railroading and my age influenced me to be mostly interested in 1970's and 80's era so that has solved a major problem for me.  It would be a huge problem if I was interested in steam era Rio Grande because of the lack of affordable accurate steam power.  Even what is offered in pastic are far from the typical steam engines operated during Rio Grandes last 10 years of steam.  The UP style challengers were only on the roster for a few short years for example.

So the conclusion is brass worth it is yes, if its the only  way you can model your desired RR and era, AND of course can you afford it and not have your wife threaten to divorce you.  Well, mine threatened it and I my goals were much more modest.

As far as investment goes, if something comes out in plastic like the BLI CZ passenger train, then you can really lose money.  I purchased 11 Kumata Challenger/High Country Brass/Oriental California Zephyr passenger cars at an average price of about $160 per passenger car.  Once BLI brought out their plastic version, it took well over a year for me to sell mine brass set at a substantial loss, about $99 per car minus the consignment fee.  Ouch.

The only brass I own now are two Palace Car Company Pulman Standard Prospector combines (as per Rio Grande Zephyr head end) and 6 brass cabooses.  These are key models and can only be replicated via brass unless you do major kitbashing or scratchbuilding.

That pretty much sums it up for the average sch muck.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Friday, November 12, 2010 3:28 AM

How about brass bridges? Are the BLMA bridges likely to be any kind of investment over time?

Have brass bridges from older manufacturers held their "value"?

Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.

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Posted by JimValle on Friday, November 12, 2010 4:11 PM

Brass can become an addiction!  I got started when an elderly member of my model railroad club died and left us some brass engines in very poor condition.  I ended up with a Tenshodo AT&SF Hudson and Sunset Mountain.  The challenge was to replace missing parts, renew fouled up wiring, repair various dings and scratches and get them into operating condition.  I'd never worked with brass before but tinkering with free-for-nothing engines seemed a good way to learn so I plunged in and spent many a pleasant winter evening until finally I had two handsome runners to play with.  Next I found a battered out of box AT&SF Northern at a train show.  I stripped off its gunked up paint, overhauled the motor and  got yet another fine runner to show for my efforts.  Now I make it a point to check for abused and distressed brass at every train show I go to.  Sometimes I find an engine with grave problems that take months or years to resolve and sometimes I find a real creampuff  that just needs TLC to get it going again.  I don't do it as an investment.  I just love the engines.  I feel the same way about them that my wife does when she takes in a bedraggled stray cat and turns it into a sleek and loyal family pet.  Brass engines have souls stamped into them by the anonymous Japanese or Korean artisans who labored to make them as perfect as possible.  You can't say that about plastic!

  • Member since
    November 2002
  • From: Colorado
  • 4,075 posts
Posted by fwright on Saturday, November 13, 2010 8:17 AM

Capt. Grimek

How about brass bridges? Are the BLMA bridges likely to be any kind of investment over time?

Have brass bridges from older manufacturers held their "value"?

Specifically, I wouldn't expect any kind of returns on purchase of BLMA bridges.  The appeal is just too narrow.  For most layouts, bridges need to be customized or significantly modified to fit - both space-wise and theme-wise.  There are collectors of locomotives, passenger cars, and caboose that are content to display their collections on shelves, which serves to jack up demand for mint versions of those items.  I haven't heard of such for bridges, although there may be a couple.

Generically, nothing in model railroading is "likely" to have investment type returns.  Some brass locomotives that are in fairly high demand, and were not made in large quantities have held their own, or somewhat better, against inflation.  Think about it:  if brass routinely proved to be a good investment, hobby shops that hoarded brass would be in great financial shape.  Instead, hobby shops that turn over their inventory do best, and those that insist on highest price end up liquidating their entire stocks to other hobby shops at bargain prices.  Like used jewelry, selling used brass locomotives requires lots of patience, and when you add in all the factors such as time, selling expenses, and inventory carrying costs, is not as lucrative as one might think.  There is a reason most hobby shops sell used brass on consignment rather than buy it outright.

Two other considerations against long term investment success - the aging of brass collectors and operators, and the willingness of manufacturers to reproduce past successes and flood the market with new replacements.  Both of these considerations have brought down Lionel post war prices significantly since their peaks in the '90s - and the same is happening to HO brass.

As the graying and eventual deaths of many brass collectors and operators continues, supply will increase as their collections come on the market.  Demand will decrease because there are not as many replacement model railroaders interested in brass.

Reproducing successful locomotives in plastic has certainly impacted brass prices.  A Tenshodo Big Boy from the 1950s or 1960s certainly isn't worth what it was in the early '90s.  There are just too many Big Boy models out there, and many of the plastic or die-cast versions are now considered more desirable than the brass versions.  An even better example is what Blackstone is doing to HOn3 brass prices of the models they are producing or are even just intending to produce.  The plastic or die-cast version - if it's any good - caps the price inflation and price of the brass versions because of the increased supply of the model, and decreased demand for the brass.  All it takes is for a nice plastic model of your favorite brass piece to come out, and watch what happens to the price.

As has already been stated, if you are a tinkerer, brass is easier to modify and work on than current plastic and die cast production.  And most brass items probably have much better durability over the long term than their modern production counterparts.  But the number of willing tinkerers is decreasing, and the number of modelers putting high operating hours on all their locomotives is also decreasing.

Personally, I buy those items I truly want (and can afford) without worrying about the future.  I buy the models I do to enjoy as part of my hobby.  If my heirs can get a decent price for what brought me personal pleasure, that's great.  If not, I'm not around to care.  I'm a tinkerer, so I'm more than willing to take on a brass locomotive at the right price that has a good chance of fitting in or being made to fit into my roster.  If a better roster candidate comes along, the old is sold off.  This applies to locomotives, cars, structures, and even tools.  At present, I have 2 brass locos - an HOn3 FED 2-6-0 with a Roundbell re-motor, and an HOn3 Kidder 0-4-0T in need of rebuild.  I have my eyes on several other locomotives when my wallet permits.  I sold off all but one of my Bowser steamers because they didn't fit my era or theme.  For geared steam, I am using modified Roundhouse and Keystone kits.  The brass geared steam models I like are still too spendy.  Brass cars don't presently tempt me - I like the wood and resin (and metal when I can find them) kits better.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 685 posts
Posted by Howard Zane on Saturday, November 13, 2010 8:53 AM

What many of you are missing about brass models is that from the mid 90's and on to current times it has become a hobby within a hobby and in several cases...a hobby unto its own. Most new brass (could be close to 95%) purchased today will never see service on a model pike, but make it's home on a shelf or in a case, and purchased soley  as a fine art collectible. Most buyers of brass today do not have layouts, but some do have test tracks. Very few purchase as an investment, but enjoy owning magnificent models hand made by very talented artisans. Love of railroading is their common bond and hopefully not to sound snobish....the means to afford. Many collect either wheel arrangements, railroads, items from one importer, and probably several other categories.

Importers missed out on marketing only to the model railroad hobby, and even today, brass trains are a well kept secret among the collectible world. Just about everyone on the planet has some sort of liking for trains if not a fasination. Yet I have never heard of an importer setting up at a serious collectible show like the one held in Atlantic City.

Decades back folks actually played with their brass toys as they were in proportion cost wise to most incomes and there were few plastic and diecast competitors. Some nuts like me do run newer brass models, but like many.....respect them and maintain them to perfection.

HZ

Howard Zane
  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Kansas
  • 808 posts
Posted by jamnest on Saturday, November 13, 2010 9:13 AM

I have a few brass pieces.  I bought them because I wanted them and not because of their investment value.  I don't  run them on my layout. You should only collect because you value what you are collecting.  A lot of people have lost money buying collectables thinking that they were going to make a fortune, only to find the value has gone down and not up.  I am however, amazed at the prices that people are paying for stuff on Ebay, including Athearn BB kits, Plasticville kits and Craftsman Kits.

 

Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.

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