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Washing mortor on to a brick wall Locked

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Washing mortor on to a brick wall
Posted by IDAHOSURGE on Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:42 AM

I would like to know what to mix with some concrete paint to wash the mixture onto a brick wall, wipe the mixture off and leave mortor lines in the indentations between the brick.

I know the technique, I just don't know the proper mix.  I have never used it, but I have read about it in a couple of articles, I just have no clue what issue or how long ago.

Rod

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Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:45 AM

 I use 'FolkArt' Cabin Gray acrylic paint myself. I just smear some onto the wall with my finger making sure it gets into the mortar lines then wipe it off with a paper towel. Instant mortar lines.

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Posted by IDAHOSURGE on Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:49 AM

Thanks Jeffrey, can I get this at any good art supply store like Hobby Lobby?

 

Rod

 

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Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:51 AM

 You should be able to. I get mine at Wal-Mart's craft aisle.

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Posted by IDAHOSURGE on Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:53 AM

Thanks!

 

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Posted by Driline on Sunday, July 25, 2010 9:06 AM
IDAHOSURGE

Thanks Jeffrey, can I get this at any good art supply store like Hobby Lobby?

 

Rod

 

I'm sorry Idaho, but that is bad advice. We have some noobies on this forum who like to jump in whenever they can even if they give incorrect advice. Doing it his way gives you way to much paint and smear. It looks awful. You can use acrylic if you like but you still need to dilute it with water. Now you can mix it with a 20/80 mixture wipe it on the mortar lines and then wipe if off with a paper towel, or like me, I simply dip the brush in the paint, and then in a second bowl of water, I dip it in there to get it diluted and then brush it on the mortar, then wipe it off with a towel. This gives you more control. You don't want to over do it. You can always go back this way and add more....
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Posted by nbrodar on Sunday, July 25, 2010 9:49 AM

Driline
I'm sorry Idaho, but that is bad advice. We have some noobies on this forum who like to jump in whenever they can even if they give incorrect advice. Doing it his way gives you way to much paint and smear. It looks awful.

 

Jeff is hardly a newbie...and his technique works fine.  It's the same one I use...

Nick

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Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Sunday, July 25, 2010 9:52 AM

Driline
I'm sorry Idaho, but that is bad advice. We have some noobies on this forum who like to jump in whenever they can even if they give incorrect advice. Doing it his way gives you way to much paint and smear. It looks awful.

Looks good to me.

And I'm not a noobie. I've been in this hobby for over 40 years and have done mortar lines in many different ways involving chalks and paints an dthis is one I've found that works if done carefully.

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Posted by Driline on Sunday, July 25, 2010 10:14 AM
nbrodar

Driline
I'm sorry Idaho, but that is bad advice. We have some noobies on this forum who like to jump in whenever they can even if they give incorrect advice. Doing it his way gives you way to much paint and smear. It looks awful.

 

Jeff is hardly a newbie...and his technique works fine.  It's the same one I use...

Nick

Thank you for confirming my worst fears.
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Posted by Driline on Sunday, July 25, 2010 10:17 AM
jeffrey-wimberly
Looks good to me.
I've seen pictures of your layout numerous times. You should be the poster boy for "Looks good to me". Thanks, but....no thanks.
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Posted by nbrodar on Sunday, July 25, 2010 10:32 AM

Driline
[

 Thank you for confirming my worst fears.

 

I noticed you conveniently left out the first two pictures.   So I show you four pictures....you pick the one that intentionally represents a well weathered brick structure, and ignore the two that represent newer buildings....all the while not providing any pictures of your work.

Nick

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Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Sunday, July 25, 2010 10:35 AM

 How about letting the original poster be the judge of what he finds works better for him instead of trying to influence him by throwing cold water on everyone else. He could consider your method as being more trouble than he wants to deal with. I know I've tried it and it works but I don't like having cans of paint and bowls of water on the layout while I'm working on it. I find a small squeeze bottle of paint and a paper towel to be much easier.

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Posted by Driline on Sunday, July 25, 2010 10:54 AM
nbrodar

Driline
[

 Thank you for confirming my worst fears.

 

I noticed you conveniently left out the first two pictures.   So I show you four pictures....you pick the one that intentionally represents a well weathered brick structure, and ignore the two that represent newer buildings....all the while not providing any pictures of your work.

Nick

Fire away Ladies.....Less is more.
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Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Sunday, July 25, 2010 10:57 AM

 I don't see any gray mortar lines at all. I see red mortar lines in red brick and yellow mortar lines in yellow brick. That to me is very unrealistic.

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Posted by m horton on Sunday, July 25, 2010 11:42 AM

Hold on gents, before this becomes a full-fledged pissing contest, both ways work. For the what it's worth,the question should be answered by more questions, how old is structure? If it's 80 years old, much of the mortar may be black from years of pollution. Something newer, say twenty years old will show mortar clearer. Also, myself, if the structure is closer to the  edge of layout I may put little heavier mortar wash on than if it's  two feet back. A little prospective so to speak. If your veiwing a building one hundred yards away the mortar maybe just a little finer. Practice what works for yourself, it's the best teacher. mh.

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Posted by doctorwayne on Sunday, July 25, 2010 11:58 AM

 

Driline
Fire away Ladies.....Less is more.

 

I have to agree with Jeff:  "less" can be "more", but in the case of your nicely painted buildings, "less" appears to be "too little", at least as far as highlighting mortar lines. Wink

Sometimes, to make details more apparent, we have to exaggerate them on our models, so wood grain is perhaps more pronounced than it would be in real life:

...rivets may be larger than actual scale size:

...or moulded-in mortar lines more pronounced than they generally are on the real thing:

The colour you choose for your bricks and for the mortar can make a big difference in the final appearance, too.  The structure in the left foreground below was painted an oxide red, then drywall mud was applied to the "brick" areas.  Once dried, the excess was wiped off with a dry rag:

It's meant to represent a fairly new building, with the painted concrete pilasters, and very little weathering:

This building was also done with drywall mud, but the base brick colour was Floquil Reefer Orange:

The colour is very typical of locally-made brick in this area, and un-tinted drywall mud is a good representation of mortar with a high lime content.  Since this is an older building, I added some dark grey paint to the drywall mud before application, and, because that made only a minor difference in the appearance, I also applied several very well-thinned washes of PollyScale paint over the finished mortar job:

Another Reefer Orange building, this time with no drywall mud and a wash of dark grey PollyScale:

This one's also done in Reefer Orange, but washed with a lighter grey.  The more-finely moulded mortar lines give a similar, yet still subtly  different, appearance:


This structure, probably painted with some form of "boxcar red", got an over-all wash of dark grey (heavily thinned PollyScale), while the one in the backgound was done with a lighter shade:

Wayne

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Posted by Driline on Sunday, July 25, 2010 1:40 PM
doctorwayne

The colour is very typical of locally-made brick in this area, and un-tinted drywall mud is a good representation of mortar with a high lime content.  Since this is an older building, I added some dark grey paint to the drywall mud before application, and, because that made only a minor difference in the appearance, I also applied several very well-thinned washes of PollyScale paint over the finished mortar job:

I especially like the way you placed the mortar on this building. It does look good IMHO. My contention with Jeffery is that he purports to slap on the paint without diluting it, and then rubbing it off the building. This contradicts most of the scenery books and seasoned modelers applications of mortar lines on buildings. Believe me I tried it this way 25 years ago when I was just starting out, and it looked bad. The paint adhered to the building and would not wipe off to reveal just the mortar lines. I learned from my mistakes and listened to others to improve. I just hate to see him give poor advice to newer members when he himself obviously does not follow recommendations given to him by the few pro's left on this forum. Copy the best, and forget the rest.
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Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Sunday, July 25, 2010 1:51 PM

Driline
My contention with Jeffery is that he purports to slap on the paint without diluting it, and then rubbing it off the building.

That's exactly how I do it. Others have tried it and found it to be good for them. If they want to thin the paint that's up to them, not you or me. If it didn't work for you there may be some reason. Maybe you let the paint sit too long or maybe you used a different type than I use. It does not work with enamel paint, instead it makes a sticky film that won't wipe off. I found that out when I was testing different types of paint. Now if the way I do it annoys you because it's different than what your books say, well I can't help that. It works for me and I'm not changing it to placate you. You do it your way and I'll do it my way. That's one of the things that makes this hobby unique. Not everybody does everything the same way.

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Posted by chutton01 on Sunday, July 25, 2010 2:00 PM

nbrodar


I just have to ask, what is this structure going to be - some sort of yard tower? Small airport control tower? To me the mortar lines look fine, but the green window roof addition looks incongruous with that style of brick building (if you have Prototype photos post 'em - it would be interesting to see)

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Posted by Driline on Sunday, July 25, 2010 2:16 PM

chutton01

nbrodar


I just have to ask, what is this structure going to be - some sort of yard tower? Small airport control tower? To me the mortar lines look fine, but the green window roof addition looks incongruous with that style of brick building (if you have Prototype photos post 'em - it would be interesting to see)

 

Isn't it obvious? The glass enclosed area was a women's jello wrestling tournament that went bad.

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Posted by wjstix on Sunday, July 25, 2010 2:30 PM

FWIW regarding mortar, I find it works better to do the opposite...that is, I spray the flat walls with a light gray to simulate the mortar, then use an art marker to color the raised bricks. "English Red" seems to be very good brick color. Then you can use a small brush to color some other bricks different shades of red, gray or brown if you want some contrast. It also allows you to leave the gray on trim areas like above and below the windows.  

Stix
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Posted by farrellaa on Sunday, July 25, 2010 4:43 PM

WOW?? This is getting a little much for a simple question of what others do to get the results they want.

I also use cheap Folk Art (Wal-Mart or Hobby Lobby) or other brands of acrylic paint in squeeze bottles, straight out of the bottle and then wipe it off almost immediately with a paper towel. I get great results and they can vary by how much you wipe off. I brush it on in small areas (about 1"x2" areas) so it doesn't have much time to set. I use a color called Linen for most of my mortar as it is a little off white; I don't want a lot of contrast. Another thing I  have done it to paint the walls with 2 or 3 shades of brick and when you put the mortor over it, you get some variations in the bricks.  I can see thinning it out a little with water or alcohol but not very much. I have also used a damp paper towel to remove some of the paint from the brick surface when I think it looks to washed out; again depending on the effect I am looking for (old or new brick work).

This method works great for me, doesn't use a lot of 'equipment' and can be done in steps or when I have time to work on the model. My suggestion Rod, is to try a couple of methods and see what works best for you. You may even like both or other methods. Just try some and go from there.  One other advantage of what I suggested is that you can wipe the mortor off completelly if you don't like what you did.

Bob

Forgot to add photos of some of the brick mortar I did this way.

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Posted by Allegheny2-6-6-6 on Monday, July 26, 2010 9:35 AM

Driline
nbrodar

Driline
[

 Thank you for confirming my worst fears.

 

I noticed you conveniently left out the first two pictures.   So I show you four pictures....you pick the one that intentionally represents a well weathered brick structure, and ignore the two that represent newer buildings....all the while not providing any pictures of your work.

Nick

Fire away Ladies.....Less is more.

 

 

Your pictures prove NOTHING for all any of us know these structures could have been purchased or  done by someone else but what your replies do indicate s your sheer arrogance and ignorance  to personally attack another members modeling.which if I recall is strictly forbidden according to the rules of the board. Jeff's techniques do have some merit and I have seen the same such techniques done by published modelers and some even in Allen Keller's video collection of Great Model Railroads can any of that be said for your work I suspect not. What are posted here are techniques and opinions on how one does things thee is no right or wrong answer. One can choose to disagree with a posters opinions in a much more civilized manner in which you've chosen to do so. You've proven not that you have a valuable technique but that you are an arrogant individual who owes Jeff and apology

 

To the O/P not all structures are weathered or detailed the same so doing everything one way is a sure fire way of making your layout have a cookie cutter appearance. Jeff's method has some merit to it and I feel is worth a try if you do or don't then thats up to you as it's your.railroad. My current method of choice for masonry grout lines are is something i picked up from reading Marty McGuirk's Kalmbach book "A model railroaders guide to Locomotive Servicing Terminals" 

In which he describes how you first lay your panels flat on the workbench and brush on a copious amount of water over the brick surface, then simply take straight color be it gray or aged concrete or aged white what ever mortar color you decide on is up to you. The water will  cause the color to wick through and fill all of the grout lines similar to capillary action but not exactly the same. After the color has set up for a bit you can wipe off the excess with either a paper towel soft cotton cloth or a sponge brush I use a combination of all three some times and some times just one or two. If you want the wash to be lighter simply brush on some more water if you want the lines darker and more pronounced dry the surface of a bit before you apply color.

I feel it gives a very nice appearance of not only the grout-lines but it gives the appearance of aged brick as well.

below is an example,


Just my 2 cents worth, I spent the rest on trains. If you choked a Smurf what color would he turn?
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Posted by doctorwayne on Monday, July 26, 2010 10:30 AM

As noted, there are lots of ways to accomplish this task, and anyone wishing to do so might try all of the techniques suggested in order to avoid having all of your brick structures look the same.  As shown, there are good results to be had from all of these methods.

Wayne

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Posted by DJO on Monday, July 26, 2010 10:54 AM

Driline
jeffrey-wimberly
Looks good to me.
I've seen pictures of your layout numerous times. You should be the poster boy for "Looks good to me". Thanks, but....no thanks.

driline this is so bad in taste. callin a him a poster boy?  theres much better ways to tell a man you dont agree with his way. why be so nasty? were sopposed to be havin fun.  
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Posted by nbrodar on Monday, July 26, 2010 10:57 AM

chutton01

nbrodar


I just have to ask, what is this structure going to be - some sort of yard tower? Small airport control tower? To me the mortar lines look fine, but the green window roof addition looks incongruous with that style of brick building (if you have Prototype photos post 'em - it would be interesting to see)

 

Yard office...

Nick

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Posted by chutton01 on Monday, July 26, 2010 11:02 AM

doctorwayne

As noted, there are lots of ways to accomplish this task, and anyone wishing to do so might try all of the techniques suggested in order to avoid having all of your brick structures look the same.  As shown, there are good results to be had from all of these methods

Perhaps the OP can buy a set of modular brick wall panels like DPM or Walthers offers - perhaps 6 or so. Then, try out the different mortar methods given, plus whatever other ones you may read on the web or in magazines/reference books. Compare and contrast, and then for methods that yield results you like, strip off the paint from the other wall panels and redo them with your favored methods, tweaking a the methods a bit to see if you get results you like better - make notes of what seems to work for you, plus you get practice in finishing buildings. Preferably get wall panels w/ windows/doors/quoins so you can see how the mortar methods works with such details - for example, does the mortar build up around these extrusions?
When done, strip the paint off all the wall panels and use them to build a background building flat (or whatever) using your new-found skills.

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Posted by nbrodar on Monday, July 26, 2010 11:03 AM

wjstix

FWIW regarding mortar, I find it works better to do the opposite...that is, I spray the flat walls with a light gray to simulate the mortar, then use an art marker to color the raised bricks. "English Red" seems to be very good brick color. Then you can use a small brush to color some other bricks different shades of red, gray or brown if you want some contrast. It also allows you to leave the gray on trim areas like above and below the windows.  

 

I use this technique as well...

Art Markers:

Colored pencils work too:

Nick

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Posted by selector on Monday, July 26, 2010 1:14 PM

Just a personal observation here...a bit off topic, but addressing Driline's first post to this thread.  It seems he has derieded this forum because he feels it is populated by dilettantes who like to encourage each other and who talk about more frivolous things associated with the hobby...no depth.  Then, when a thread like this starts, and different experiences are shared, with the depth that obviously accomplished modelers have imparted by their posts, his contribution was sneering disdain and more derision.

I would like those who helped to educate Driline by supporting Jeff to know that this forum is stronger and better by your presence.  Personally, I am happy that you are here and willing to contribute instead of taking away.

-Crandell

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Posted by chutton01 on Monday, July 26, 2010 1:40 PM

nbrodar

Yard office...

Nick

Aha, I thought the building style looked a little incongruous with the tower addition. Your prototype has the plain, simple look of many service buildings starting from, well, the late 1930s I think - no lintels about the windows, no stonework/roof parapets etc. No real adornments, plain railroad service style (and actually the style of municipal and government service buildings from the 1940s till...well today even). It was kinda bugging me, as the 'minimalist' style slanted glass tower and the 'ornate' brick building don't fit well.
However, I do like how you ran the rolled roofing up onto the interior sides of the walls, very prototypically common.

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