How to make your layout sturdier

[Anonymous]

Check out the Simpson product line of metal fasteners used in framing houses, decks, fences, workbench construction, etc. They have several different types of brackets used for fastening 2x wood to concrete that are probably more cost effective and stable than angle brackets. Look for them at well stocked hardware stores, the big box (Home Depot or Loew's) stores, and building products supply houses. I believe they have a web site, and offer a very comprehensive (and thick) product reference manual.

If you're attaching wood directly to concrete, you should consider using pressure- treated wood for the framing member that rests on the concrete (legs). Due to a recent Federally mandated change in the formulation of pressure-treated lumber (as of 01/01/2004), special coated metal brackets, and screws and/or nails, are now required for use w/ the newly formulated pressure-treated lumber. The chemicals used in the new pressure treating process will quickly corrode and destroy the older galvanized metal hardware.

Of course, like everything else, the new lumber and the new hardware cost more than the older products! MeFeeley's is a good on-line source for specialized screws, etc.

A recent article in Fine Homebuilding discussed this in great detail, for many suppliers, and especially those big box stores, were not completely up to speed on this serious issue. Be aware that one should wear a respirator (dust mask as a min), gloves, and eye protection when cutting or sanding pressure treated lumber because the dust and splinters are harmful if breathed in, or if you get into an open wound. Never burn it either - the fumes can be toxic. Nasty stuff, but it does the job, and should be used in a basement or a garage environment.

When purchasing pressure-treated lumber, pay extra attention to how straight the lumber is. Select pieces that have been in the retail store for awhile, for they will have had time to acclimate, and if they would have twisted, warped, or bowed, they most likely would have in the time they sat in an older pile. If they feel wet or heavy, don't select those boards, because they probably just left the processing facility. The heaviness is most likely due to a high moisture content (water and/or preservative), and will give you fits as they dry out. Allow approx 6 months before painting any pressure-treated lumber, or the paint will peel off in time.

An alternative to pressure-treated lumber is redwood, but the cost of good redwood is astonomical as of late, thanks to the tree huggers, the spotted owl, and politicians.

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate


The Siskiyou Line is anchored to the concrete floor with steel angle brackets and masonry nails. To place the nails, you use a special "nail gun" tool that you buy that has 22 shell charges that literally "shoot" the nail into the concrete.

Using the tool, you insert a nail into the nose, then put a 22 charge into the chamber. You place the tip of the tool with the nail at the spot you want it then strike the tool "firing pin" with a hammer and "kabamm!" Nail shot into the concrete and isn't going to move for nothing.

Now that you've reminded me of this, I think I'll add it to the how to section of video 2 on the Siskiyou Line design and construction. ;-)

Joe,

I'm familiar with these as used by the maintenance mechanics in one of my past live's. The brand which comes to mind is Hilti. These can be rented or purchased but aren't the specific type you're talking about, more of an industrial type with a trigger, safety, etc. I know what you are describing specifically, though, as I've seen them in the sale paper from Menard's, etc.

Glad I was able to "jog" your memory and give you an idea for the video.

Good luck with your presentation at the Nats!

[jfugate]

Paul:

The Siskiyou Line is anchored to the concrete floor with steel angle brackets and masonry nails. To place the nails, you use a special "nail gun" tool that you buy that has 22 shell charges that literally "shoot" the nail into the concrete.

Using the tool, you insert a nail into the nose, then put a 22 charge into the chamber. You place the tip of the tool with the nail at the spot you want it then strike the tool "firing pin" with a hammer and "kabamm!" Nail shot into the concrete and isn't going to move for nothing.

Now that you've reminded me of this, I think I'll add it to the how to section of video 2 on the Siskiyou Line design and construction. ;-)

[CBQ_Guy]

Speaking of over building...

I've given this a lot of thought over the past couple years on my still to be constructed, basement layout. There will be a long, somewhat narrow, L-shaped peninsula, about 28 feet in length. The narrowest part will be on either side of the metal support columns for the floor above. At this point the benchwork will be "attached" somehow to these posts, and won't move! It will also be attached to the main layout benchwork, of course, as well.

The last few feet of the peninsula will be wide as it contains the "blob" (aka turnback curve). This is the part I am going to over build using a framwork using, probably 4x4 legs, which will have a bolt in the center of the bottom of each, matching a hole drilled in the concrete floor, and silicone caulk "gluing" the bottom of the 4x4 legs to the concrete. This thing ain't going nowhere! 2x4's would probably be sufficient, but I have a couple 4x4's already left over from some long past project. I have a workbench built this way, though not attached to the floor, which was constructed by the former owner of my house. It's twelve feet long and weighs a ton, which is the reason he didn't trying moving it, leaving it for me instead (thank you!). It's extremely solid and heavy, and has a top of the old time 2x10 or 12 material.

The only remaining part of this peninsula, is the section of a few feet which widens connecting the narrow part of the peninsula to the wide, blob part. It will be supported at either end by connecting it to the solid benchwork previously described on either end of this center section. Additionally, I will have a couple sideways 2x3's probably, going vertically up through the center of the peninsula, which will be used to support a Masonite backdrop on either side. These 2x3's will be attached to the ceiling joists above, and connected somehow to the concrete basement floor below.

[Anonymous]

Probably will work. Those shelving units are not light weight so you will get some stability by hooking them together. If the floor is bare wood, use "L" brackets to attach them to the floor and they won't go anywhere. Besides, after a few bruises, you'll learn to walk around the penninsula.

[traingeek087]

At Wal mart they sell shelves for $30, I know their cheapies, but they're the exact height of my layout and about 30 inches long by 1 foot deep. My idea behind this is to rest the layout on these shelves. I'd use shelves only on one side, since my layout is 18 inches wide, and two shelves put together is 24 inches wide. Then I'd put bracing on one side, and cover it with hardboard. that will be 5 inches in for toes room. this will give it a flat look on one side with a shelf on the other. Think it will work?

[FJ and G]

2X4 L-girder; some use 2X6.

Overkill?

Maybe.

Sturdier?

You bet.

Dave Vergun

[Nieuweboer]

I visited a furniture auction and bought for a few bucks old oak shallow bookcases and used them to support my peninsula.

[Anonymous]

Bill-
I like the dedicated room idea!

How about some pics of your benchwork...I'd like to see how you did it

[Anonymous]

Removing the drywall and bolting the framework to the studs is a great idea if you are going to keep the room as a dedicated model railroad room for a long time, and bolting any benchwork to a concrete floor, as in a basement, is equally good practice. However the person who started this topic is building a 'peninsula' into the center of a relatively small room, and is concerned about the stabiliy of long, tall and very narrow benchwork freestanding in the middle of that room, and that is not able to be attached along a wall on its "long" side, and maybe only at a narrow end.

FYI- I'm doing exactly what you suggested re: the drywall and the bolting, in my new basement location dedicated railroad room.
BILL

[Anonymous]

If you have a lot of patience...

Rip off the drywall and mount the benchwork to the studs...it won't go anywhere!
If you're in a concrete room (basement?) bolt the benchwork to the concrete!

Not realistic unless you're loaded!

[Anonymous]

thanks Phil for the endorsement, but I think those who have already reponded have given you some very practical suggestions.

The only 'problem' - let's call it a challenge - would be finding ready-made cabinets shallow enough, and at the right height for the eleven feet by 18 " of benchwork for your yard. Is the yard being constructed on a flat surface, as I would expect most yards would be? Check to determine that your floor is level before you start.

Here's what I'd consider doing -
Depending on the height of your layout, I'd construct a platform out of 2x4s, or even larger dimensioned lumber, like 2x8s or 2x10s, that would rest on the floor, then attach a 3/4" plywood base on top of it. I'd make the platform a little narrower than your bench top width to allow for a toe kick on each side. For a finished width for the yard, I'd make it about 15" wide, yielding a 1 1/2 " clearance for your feet on each side, and I'd do something similar at the end that will be not attached to the rest of the layout. Space cross bracing of 2x4s (or larger2x mat'l) every couple of feet between the long side rails. The more the better, as they'll only be approx 12" long max. Do not lay the 2x material flat, but use it on end. I would avoid simply butt joining the 2x mat'l together with nails, but rather use screws, and a form of triangular bracing (a triangle shaped pc of 3/4 " plywood screwed in each corner - will do just fine (and be cost effective). Don't waste your time gluing any butt joined pcs together, because a long-grain to end-grain glue joint is about useless. This sucker is going to be heavy, and that's what you want - it will place a lot of weight down low. By screwing the base together will permit it to be later disassembled and moved out of the room if necessary.

On top of that, mount inexpensive upper kitchen cabinets, which are shallower (approx 12") than base cabinets (typically 22-24" deep) which would be too deep for your 18" yard. You might find other cabinets designed for garages or closets that may differ in how deep (or shallow) they are. Keep in mind that narrow aisles will dictate how wide a cabinet door you'll be able to use. You don't want a 36" wide door opening into a 30" aisle - it won't. Don't forget that you'll probably want to finish off an exposed side of the cabinet w/ either 1/8" or 1/4" plywood. Suggest you screw or bolt each cabinet to the next one for added strength. Use fender washers.

Using the typical 12" deep cabinets allows you room to attach a back to them using plywood (1/4" is fine), and for a couple dollars more you can upgrade to birch or oak from the typical ugly "shop looking" fir plywood. Birch takes paint extremely well, and would be far less distracting (than the dramatic grain of oak) in a model railroad setting. The backs of cabinets are usually open and offer little nailing or screwing surface for such backing, so you may want to glue and screw some simple 1x or 2 x material on the inside lip of each side, and on the inside lip of the top and bottom of each cabinet..

You could also attach some long shallow shelves to the back of the cabinets - just use 1x3 (approx 3/4" x 2 1/2" nominal) poplar (it also takes paint extremely well, and is cheper than pine, and more stable), and simply screw them to the outside face of the 1/4 " plywood on the horizontal (for the actual shelves), w/ vertical members at each end. That would stiffen up the back tremendously. You could store overflow rolling stock on these shelves, but be careful about your knees knocking into them. I'd mount code 100 flex track on each shelf, for the trains would have less tendency to be knocked onto the floor, if on track.

You'll require a piece of plywood on top of the cabinets to seal them off from things falling into their open tops. Look under the counter tops in your kitchen to see how the counter tops are typically attached to the base cabinets. Almost any dimension plywood will work for a stiffener for the top. I'd suggest 1/2" or 3/4", since you'll have some most likely left over from ther base platform. Screw - do not glue - the top to the manufacturer installed corner braces on each cabinet. You can finish off the exposed edges of plywood w/ a very thin self-adhearing 3/4" wide strip of matching veneer tape banding.

Again, depending on the finished height of the layout, you could add some simple framework - 1x3s even - or even sorta like piers that would be sized to the actual dimension needed to gain the finished height . Leaving this framework open will permit you to access wiring under your layout, and especially any switch machines and related 'hardware' requiring maintainence. I'd screw such a framework together, and it will be fairly light. Again liberal use of cross braces will stiffen it up a bunch. Look at how a typical 'face frame' is constructed on the face of a kitchen cabinet for ideas how to construct this framework.

If you're familair w/ biscuit jointers, or pocket hole joinery, either would be ideal for constructing this framework. Biscuit jointers require glue and an expensive dedicated $175-$225 tool. Pocket hole tooling is relatively inexpensive - approx. $50.00, plus a power drill and some specialized screws (avail. from the tooling manufacturer or a good hardware supplier). It is incredibly strong, can be disassembled if required, no glue is required, and it's quite easy to do. Recommend Kreg pocket hole joinery tooling (best bang for the buck is called their "Pocket Rocket"). (note to Bergie - that is what they call it, and not a 'dirty' expresssion) Finally attach your yard layout plywood to the framework with simple inexpensive steel angle brackets.

A cost savings alternative would be to not have a continuous bank of cabinets, but just three or so joined together by the upper and lower pieces of plywood. You would need to most likely fabricate thin 1/8" or 1/4" (better) sides to each cabinet for both strength and a finished appearance. If you can. attach one end of this platform to the rest of ther layout to keep it from tipping, although that would be highly unlikey, but if it did, you may not be able to lift it back because of it's weight ! Remember it is quite tall and narrow. . .

Do not substitute MDF for the plywood, because it is too heavy and requires painting on all surfaces because it is prone to soaking up moisture and forming mildew in certain environments. Also, MDF is usually manufactured with fermaldehydes, as are some plywoods-esp those from SE Asia such as 'virolia' (sometimes passed off as a type of birch or oak) and nicknamed 'stinky oak' - it is neither a birch or an oak, and does stink, because it is made from fallen logs that have been immersed in stinky ponds full of nasty critters, and you'll be smelling the stinky pond water, as well as the fermaldehydes which takes a long time to go away. Fermaldehydes are not healthy to breath in, especially in enclosed spaces, such as in a room where you'll be spending a lot of time - running your railroad.

This platform can be later used in a different configuration because it can be completely disassembled, and the pieces rearranged. It will also be able to be taken apart for moving it out of the room later on. Load up the cabinets with your heavy stuff on the bottom, and this sucker is not going anywhere.

All of these materials can be purchased at a local home center, and if you don't have access to a table saw or other power saw, determine your exact measurements and have the store cut all the pieces to length and width for you. It may only cost a few dollars extra to get that done. The Kreg pocket hole jig and screws can be ordered from numerous suppliers online - try Tool Crib of the North, Rockler, or Woodcraft. They may have a retail location depending upon where you live. All three are excellent to deal with. For used cabinets, you might try Habitat for Humaniy resale outlets if you have one in your locale. I'd avoid cheap and flimsy particleboard construction cabinets, because it is very difficult to attach anything to it with screws.

Hope this has been helpful, and now I need to get back in the shop !

[orsonroy]

Most layouts I've seen over the years have been WAY overbuilt, like the owner was going to hold a dance marathon on them! There's really no reason for 2x4s, 4x4s, or any other large lumber on a layout, unless you're running live steam indoors!

Virtually all of my layout has been built using 2" foam and 1/4" plywood hung from the walls on metal shelf brackets. They're sturdy enough to lean on, and are high enough that the occasional hip bump doesn't happen. For my lowest level, which is at 36", I created a box frame out of 2x2s on 24" centers. The top of the layout is still 1/4" plywood and 2" foam. Once wiring is complete for the lower level, I'll add 1/2" ply shelves for magazine storage. While this may sound like "wimpy" construction to most old-timers, the layout is incredibly sturdy, and isn't going anywhere. I regularly climb around on top of the lower level while working on the upper two, and I'm 6'2 and weigh 220 pounds.

[tomwatkins]

Boxing it in and adding storage shelves is an excellent idea. I have a penninsula coming out into the middle of my railroad room under which I did this. It's very stable and the storage space is worth it's weight in gold. I don't think you can have too much storage space.
Have Fun,
Tom Watkins

[IRONROOSTER]

Also, include a shelf at the bottom and put 200-300 lbs of weight in it. An old weight set works well, but bricks or cinder blocks will also - don't use sand, a little hole in the bag and it leaks everywhere. Then when you bump it, it won't move. Bolting it to the floor will accompli***he same thing, but that is probably not an option.
Enjoy
Paul

[simon1966]

Philnrunt has a good suggestion. A variation on this has been used on a large layout in Maryville, Il. The entire layout is built on kitchen cabinets. They are spaced out rather than all in a line. You can see what I mean at the following link. http://www.k-10smodeltrains.com/images/lg013.jpg
The storage is very useful and the height is good.

[philnrunt]

With it being freestanding, I would box it. Instead of legs going to the floor, build a rectangular box, out of 2x2's or bigger, and attach your top to it. I did this and the box, with proper cross bracing, was as you say, like a brick.
It sounds like all you need to do is run the bottom pieces to box it in, attach these to the legs as close to the floor as possible(resting on the floor if possible), and it should be very self supporting.
If you are ambitious, you can even enclose the space for storage. Any shelves you add only strengthens the basic structure.
Again, don't forget the cross bracing.
Bill Mathewson is a custom cabinet builder, and if any tech questions come up, direct them to him and he could give you answers in proper carpentry terms, I imagine.
Hope this helps out some.

[traingeek087]

As most of you know I am starting fresh on my layout. My room size is 14X10.5 [8D] and I have a eleven foot yard that's 18 inches wide that comes out through the center of the room. What I'm wondering is how can I make this more sturdy. I have the basic legs with cross braces on the end, but I want to make it so if I bump it going up and down my 30 inch wide isles, nothing bad will happen. The yard will have 6 tracks on it and will have scenery, so I want it to be like a brick so if I bump it no cars go wobbling/falling off of tracks/table and break. This may not be the place to ask this kind of Q, but I thought to give it a shot, u never know what kind of thing you'll get in response. Thanks.