Sound, DCC and costs

[bsteel4065]

Hi everyone
There's a huge change underway in our hobby. BLI and the news that they are to introduce freight cars with sound is excellent. However, am I alone in my concern that maybe this hobby is starting to get a bit expensive? I've heard more than one comment about, 'Who would have thought I'd be paying THAT much for a plastic loco.' Many other manufacturers are now joining in (which is good) but prices are really going up.

I know MRR run many individual articles about DCC, sound etc, but I would like to see a definitive series in MRR about building your own sound, what products are out there, putting sound in your own trains, what products are out there, what are good, what are not so good. Cheaper ways of getting similar effect so those starting the hobby are not put off.

What do you think?
Thanks

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bsteel4065

Hi everyone
There's a huge change underway in our hobby. BLI and the news that they are to introduce freight cars with sound is excellent. However, am I alone in my concern that maybe this hobby is starting to get a bit expensive? I.

What do you think?
Thanks

You're not alone. Just like anything else high tech, if you want it, you have to pay.
Going from 56k modem to DSL or high resolution TV , they have it's price.

I can't afford all those bells & whistles. I do the best I can with a MR 9000 sound/power pack with
three speakers.
There are other stand alone sound products that can accompli***he same effects.

[AntonioFP45]

Agree with you guys 100%.

For now, we still have the option of installing our own sound as far as using the components available from Soundtraxx. When installed correctly the sound is better or equal to what is offered by Broadway/QSI.

It is still frustatingly expensive, but at least you can buy one or two components at a time. I'm still optimistic that the day of the "programmable decoder" is coming where basically a modeler can purchase a "basic" decoder, go to a website and for a small fee download the desired sounds.

Another version of this idea is being able to purchase CDs with an entire selection of different locomotive sounds on it. With a "blank" decoder equipped to be uploaded with sounds, the modeler then can program the decoder with the desired sounds. Sounds far fetched but the technology already exists. It's a matter of an entrepreneur or company willing to invest the "big bucks" to make this a reality. A bit of good news is that other manufacturers are deveoping sound as well. TCS is currently working on sound decoders (steam for now).

For now, like most of us, we're going to have to pinch pennies and budget as prices are ridiculous!

Hang in there, friends!

Cheers!

[aluesch]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Agree with you guys 100%.


I'm still optimistic that the day of the "programmable decoder" is coming where basically a modeler can purchase a "basic" decoder, go to a website and for a small fee download the desired sounds.

It's a matter of an entrepreneur or company willing to invest the "big bucks" to make this a reality.

That programmable decoder exists for a while now. It's called ESU: http://www.mrsonline.net/

Art

[CBQ_Guy]

What do I think?

I think the hobby has gotten WAY too expensive, to the point where it's keeping people out. Not good. Each new run of something cost more than the previous.

Thank goodness I've acquired almost all of the rolling stock and motive power for my late 1960's era, Burlington layout over the past dozen years. I also believe DCC will eventually just end up being the way trains are controlled, period. But I really don't have a need for it in my proposed layout and the cost of building a basement sized layout, room prep, and all the rest of it is high enough without having to add the cost of DCC and buying decoders for around 80 engines.

Sound at this point I can take or leave. Again, the price of all this is just way too much for what I'm willing/able to spend.

[BRAKIE]

The hobby prices is getting out of control..Just as long as we are foolish enough to pay their "robber baron" prices they will continue to raise prices and laugh all the way to the bank..[}:)] That is no need to say this or that hobby is just as expensive or this or that computer part is expensive..That is irrelevant to MRR.
Now,As one that uses DCC/Sound I can assure you it is not all that great considering the mega bucks you must spend to go DCC(don't expect the DCC flag wavers to tell you about the hidden costs and how its not the best thing since slice bread.[B)][}:)]) Sound after a short period of time can get nerve wracking to say the least even if its turn down low.[B)][V]

[Anonymous]

Seems that we have had this discussion an infinite number of times before, but again I must disagree.

We are finally getting what many of us wanted - fantastic detail, a superb drive system, unbelieveable control of the loco (plus lights and now sound) with DCC.

We getting our money's worth, IMHO !!!

For beginners or those with less cash, you STILL have the option of getting into the hobby at a good price - a beginning Athearn set costs less than $90. Better Athearn sets are available for less than $150. LL P1K and Athearn RTR locos and rolling stock are available at a reasonable price. And there are still a few BB kits out there, and also Accrurail and Roundhouse.

But I think it's great that,for those who DO want all the features, bells and whistles you can get them at what I feel is a fair price.

[lupo]

If it is true that the qsi sound system costs about $100 to put in a model:
that is about 25% of the price I payed for my new Lionel Verandah turbine with sound.
and imho that is way too much for a "gadget' , we do all our best to make the trackwork as silent as possible,
so you can only hear the clicketyclack of the wheels, and than we buy a a noisy [oops] sound equipped locomotive,
why don't they put in "sound ready" connectors like the DCC ready connectors to give us choise if we want sound or DCC in our locomotives, making stuff less expensive.

btw I am not anti sound, I like the sounds in the verandah, they are "cute" but I am afraid I'll get bored with the noise after a while and I think thesee sound modules are still too expensive.

[Anonymous]

"Mega bucks" to go DCC ???

Zephyr: $190 or less.

Non-sound decoders: $25 each or less.

(I just got a Digitrax DH163L0 for my new P2K GP38-2 AND a NCE decoder for my new Kato IMRL SD40 at my LHS for $50 with tax - and I could have gotten TCE decoders for even less.)

Sure, if you added up the price of the decoders for ALL the locos you ever wanted to convert you will have totaled a lot of money - but the same is true for your rolling stock, locomotive, CD or DVD collection. But you don't have to convert them all at once - I currently (with the last two decoder buys) will have 11 converted. I just convet them slowly but surely over time.

And I don't feel I have spent "mega bucks" to do so.

Now, if you want sound, well that's another kettle of fish - you can now have sound without DCC, so don't lay THAT cost at DCC's door! Of course, DCC sound control is better than DC ... but it's still your choice.

And when the sound bothers you, you CAN turn it off you know !

BTW:

I must protest the tendency of certain people to falsely characterize those who say they enjoy their DCC systems as either zealots or snake oil salesmen (or both!). I have never tried to mislead anyone about DCC, nor to I see this happening by any of the regular members of the Atlas DCC forum. What I DO see is a bunch of people who are trying to convey the excitement and fun they are having, tempered with helping newbees thru any problems (and ANY system has problems - even DC) that they are having or choices they must make.

Just because you don't want or like DCC is NO REASON to make such blanket coverage attacks on folk who do. There is a difference between attacking a SYSTEM and attacking PEOPLE.

I suggest you try this - ask yourself if you would really say that to someone's face !!!

[simon1966]

My Zephyr just cost me $159.00. I purchased a 6 pack of basic function decoders for some of my Athearn locomotives for $12 each. I have had my layout main line loop able to be run for 6 months and wired it for DCC but quite happily ran it with some cheap used Atlas DC controllers. I am going to keep using these DC packs as "jump" DCC controllers with the Zephyr allowing me and my 2 boys to run the system at the same time. So at this point my move to DCC has cost a little over $200.00. This is not small change to many, and frankly, I hesitated quite a while before spending it. I am so far thrilled with the results and very happy. My brother used to be in marketing in the toy industry and they would put a value on a toy which was calculated by dividing the cost of the toy by the hours of use over the lifetime of a toy. I think this is a helpful method of comparing things in our hobby. An inexpensive freight car that performs so poorly that it end up in the scrap heap may actually have less value than a cherished BLI locomotive that spends hours on the track. We each have to make this value judgement and thankfully not all of us want the same. The high end parts of this hobby seem to get the most press and discussion, but it does not mean that the hobby has to be priced out of the range of those with less funds. There will always be a part of this hobby outside of my reach. I can not imagine dropping $1K on a brass locomotive!

[Anonymous]

Well, I never thought I will touch a DCC system until BLI made the M1a. Now that I have run it on my layout (Tech 4) and a Friend's DCC layout I have a faint idea of what can indeed be done with DCC.

I have looked at my prized DC engines and wished they have sound etc... but a quick pricing of componets revealed that there is major monies involved in adding sound. Money which I dont yet have.

I probably will slowly weed out the tired engines and keep the favorites and add Tusumani (Spelling?) decoder with a good sound in em. And use the funds towards engines premade for DCC and sound and a Digi track system. But To me DC is understood and tried and true. Only now am I looking into ways to improve the "experience".

One unwanted effect is having several engines resting in the roundhouse pumping air and blowing down as well as adding water tends to drive the spouse NUTZ. so slowly and carefully I go.

[nfmisso]

Looking back through old Model Railroader magazines, in the mail sections, this cost getting out hand theme has been running for more than fifty years.......

[Anonymous]

I like the BLI locos with sound and will acquire one or two more. I see no need for DCC or a reason to spend the $$$ to change over to it. .DC has worked fine for my last 56 years in HO. I have a teenage grandson who is nuts about trains (like me) who can't afford the new Atheran and, soon I fear ,MDC prices. Me thinks the "ENRON TYPES" have wormed their way into the hobby.....Prices climbed at reasonable rates for years until the past few when they went bonkers..go by some brass for instance and just look at the over-priced junk on e-Bay for sale. Something is really starting to smell in model railroading. There are alot of young folks out there who will very frankly tell you they would love to get into model railroading but, it's too expensive and sadder than that
scratch-building is virtually unknown to them as an inexpensive way into the hobby.
Yes, models got better, ran better,looked better etc.,etc..and we got alot of what we wanted..Did we along the way close the door to future generations???

[AntonioFP45]

BillB,

So very well put! I agree that this hobby can be quite expensive, however, the enjoyment I get out of it is what I value.

One of my former co-workers from the transit company I worked at spent $500 for an "upgrade" motor to fit into his model Radio Controlled Cessna airplane! Two years ago, my neighbor across the street spent several hundred dollars for an RC jeep and controller--and he was already financially pinched!

Guys, DCC, Sound and all, I'm sticking with trains!

[BRAKIE]

Sure,Your Zephyr cost less then $200.00 But now mention the hidden cost.Such as needing to upgrade some time in the future due to a bigger and better layout.How about extra throttles? Walk around plug in jacks(if you use them)?And of course that is $25.00 per engine for a decoder.
Yeah,Guys I use DCC but I like to tell how it is even face to face-I just don't hide behind a key board like some do.I have always been upfront and honest when ask about a model product,Power Packs or DCC..I had far to many guys asking me all starry eyed about DCC from the write ups in MR and what they have been told by hobby shop owners and DCC flag wavers...Then when I tell them about the hidden costs and some of the problems that *might* pop up including frying a decoder if one is not careful, they have a REAL idea about DCC.I even let them run two of my DCC/Sound equipped locomotives to see what DCC really is and how simple it is to use..

[Anonymous]

Larry -

You ***-u-me someone "needs" (wants) these things. Maybe they will need them, but maybe not.

For example:

I will NOT need an "upgrade", as the Z can handle the size of my proposed layout (the power demand/loco "formulas" I've seen have usually been overly inflated as per the power needs).

The Zephyr has jump port capability - my "extra throttle" is my old Athearn power pak. I did buy an extra UT1 ($70) for more control. But again, the number of throttles depends on the individual's case - they may not be needed or even wanted.

For the size of my room (a downstairs bedroom), a walk-around or jacks (or radio control) are not needed. And would be rather silly.

Then again, others MAY need such things, and that's why when I try when I talk to INDIVIDUALS I try to find out what exact needs they may have and also make a habit of refering them to such web info as the TTX charts/DCC primer.

But I still say one can get into DCC without "Mega bucks". I have done so, and that is the example I gave above (forgetting the UT1, which I really didn't have to have but just wanted - mainly to plug in a throttle at a friends house more than to use on my layout).

IMHO your posts err too much on the negative aspects of DCC and could be considered as "wrong" as some that you think err on the positive side.

I resent that you say I "hide behind a keyboard" and imply that l am lying to people.
Who do you think you are to make such a statement ???

This is my last discussion with you on ANY forum.

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Sure,Your Zephyr cost less then $200.00 But now mention the hidden cost.Such as needing to upgrade some time in the future due to a bigger and better layout.How about extra throttles? Walk around plug in jacks(if you use them)?And of course that is $25.00 per engine for a decoder.
Yeah,Guys I use DCC but I like to tell how it is even face to face-I just don't hide behind a key board like some do.I have always been upfront and honest when ask about a model product,Power Packs or DCC..I had far to many guys asking me all starry eyed about DCC from the write ups in MR and what they have been told by hobby shop owners and DCC flag wavers...Then when I tell them about the hidden costs and some of the problems that *might* pop up including frying a decoder if one is not careful, they have a REAL idea about DCC.I even let them run two of my DCC/Sound equipped locomotives to see what DCC really is and how simple it is to use..

[AntonioFP45]

BillB, Brakie.

Guys, you're both on the same side and are sincere in your thoughts. Not right and wrong, but perceptions are what are clashing here!

Relax! Continue to support each other and other posters. The good info both of you provide, even with opposing points, is helpful to DCC newbies!

Keep it cool and keep moving forward, Amigos!

[Jacktal]

It is true indeed that prices are going up in model railroading accessories,but isn't it the case with everything around us?Technology is improving and prices reflect all the research and development invested in the products we use.On top of this we can add our own taste for optional "goodies" that we come to feel obligated to have,many times just to be "in the wave".

I drive a car that came with air conditionning,mag wheels,electrically controlled mirrors,a rear spoiler,dual horns and deluxe seats.I could have saved close to $3,000 CDN for the very same car without these and still enjoy electronic fuel injection,ABS brakes and the safety of airbags.Did I?...NO!I just had to have these.And that's exactly what the manufacturer's know...meaning that if they offer it,we are likely to buy it,whatever the price.And for the more restricted budget,or more conservative individual I might say,they still offer bottom line products.

Some will say that even the bottom line products call for heftier prices too,but I'd say that their quality has increased noticeably over the years.After all,even if I elected to buy a base price car,I wouldn't want to go back to carburetor equipped engines and non-radial tires.My two cents................

[BRAKIE]

George,I am sorry you took this the wrong way:
I just don't hide behind a key board like some do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
You know just as well as I do there are folks that do that..Those are the ones I was preferring to..
George,You known me long enough to know I am a little brash but far from a primadonna like some are that we could name.I just like to tell it like it is..If brand X is junk,I will tell a person that.If there is hidden costs I will tell them that to.There is no need to butter any product up same as there is no need to condemn every new product because it may not suit a modelers style..
George,When i first went DCC I was all starry eyed and happy as a two headed woodpecker in a bucket of worms..Then reality set in including the hidden costs of extra controllers,walk around jacks,Loco net,power supply and booster-get the picture? Then I went to the next step-sound.This of course was a option that I chose.I have close to $1,400 in my DCC system and sound..So,I decided to tell everybody about the hidden costs and the problems that *might* come up-something that was not told to me by anybody. Had I known this I would have been better prepared to enter the wonderful world of DCC.. Now,one more hidden cost..That is changing the headlight bulbs in some of the better brands of locomotives..A lesion learned the hard way by blowing bulbs.Now you know the whole story...now I am off to the club.

[Anonymous]

And I'm off this forum.

[AntonioFP45]

Error, Error

Can you tell us a little about yourself?

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bsteel4065

Hi everyone
There's a huge change underway in our hobby. BLI and the news that they are to introduce freight cars with sound is excellent. ...maybe this hobby is starting to get a bit expensive? ...
... I would like to see a definitive series in MRR about building your own sound, what products are out there, putting sound in your own trains, ..what are good...Cheaper ways of getting similar effect What do you think?

I think 'wishing' won't make it so.

If automobiles become too expensive, there are bicycles. Model Feight cars without sound will always be available. Consider a minute a freight train with sound in each car: Where does Cacophony begin and novelty end?

CHEAPER SOUND means 'sythesized' (artificial) sound. Have you ever heard Lionel's O-27 pre-war engine whistles?

It costs money to buy professional recording equipment to go out and record ACTUAL engines (I have a $3000 DAT and two $1000 condensor microphones) - and then the sound has to be digitized to a chip - installed and then amplified - for you to hear.Think of recording a Symphony Orchestra and the expense involved - so you can buy a CD for $17 and play it on your portable player.

And then there are always those who 'complain' about the prices of a $17 CD

[AntonioFP45]

Hey Don,

Thanks for the info! [;)][8D] I was not aware of the processes involved with having sound recorded to a chip. I can now see why Soundtraxx decoders are expensive. I assume though that Soundtraxx has access to pre-recorded sounds, I don't know.

A crazy idea of mine: The guys on Chris Train horns and Matt Donnelly websites.

These guys already have their own steam and diesel locomotive horns. I've always wondered if a technically "s a v v y" person could work out a deal where he/she could record crisp, clean horn sounds from these horn and whistle owners (of course, licensing would be involved). Then with a shortline or even Class 1 railroad's permission, record the sounds of GE and EMD bells, diesel engine at various rpms, air "pop off", etc. Then afterwards, "digitize" and balance the sounds onto chips.

I know it's more complex than this, but some of you audio/digital electronics gurus could consider something like this.

I remember that Keith Gutierrez from the Model Railroader staff was involved with "sound" for model railroading back in the late 80s or early 90s when we had the " CTC 16, and CTC 80 systems. There was a picture of Keith in an issue some years back. He was holding a microphone against the body of an idling Union Pacific SD40-2 recording the sounds of the diesel idling. HIs work resulted in his system being used for Union Pacific's locomotive engineer simulator for training. It was nicknamed "The Smile Machine" based on a UP official's reaction when the machine was demonstrated.[:D][8D]

Cheers.

[Anonymous]

I have to agree that prices in our hobby seem to be going up at an alarming rate.

That being said the quality of products available now is remarkable. Take a look at the recent products from Intermountain or even the latest P2k or Genesis freight cars. WOW.. they are a far cry from the days when the big decision was between MDC and Athearn.

I grew up assembling athearn kits and I still remember when we made the big switch to kadee couplers. I think it took my dad and I 2 years to buy them and convert all our equipment. I am just getting ready to jump into DCC and I have no intention of converting all 120+ loco's but I see the advantages. I suspect that by 2020 DCC will be the norm and it will be much like the change in couplers.

IMHO the key for our hobby is that we still have a rage of prices and qualities. If our only option is a $100 loco and $20 cars then the number of new hobbyists is going to be few and far between.

[Anonymous]

Model railroading, like everything else, is a business, and as every business, prices for similar products will tend to grow over the years. I'm 24, but I've heard so many stories about when my mother was young, how candies costed 1¢ each, how you could get milk for 5¢ while now you can't even have a small milk drink for less than 1$.

Things will always change, and we can't really do anything about it but go with the flow.

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nfmisso

Looking back through old Model Railroader magazines, in the mail sections, this cost getting out hand theme has been running for more than fifty years.......

See it IS true. And a LONG running problem at that! [;)]

[CBQ_Guy]

> And I'm off this forum.

See ya....

[jfugate]

If the price increases were just model trains, then I'd agree things have gotten out of hand, but it's our economy in general. When I look at the general increase in prices of things and wages, model trains were behind the curve for many years.

Only now that Athearn and like companies have changed hands and it has been proven that people will pay handsomely for finely detailed model that go beyond the shake-the-box kits, you go where the money is.

What will happen is the big boys will focus on the high end and abandon the low end. Then new entrepenuer types will come along and see the bottom end price vacuum and offer "budget" kits.

So it will all even out over time.

The good news is DCC is electronics, and our history there is continued price drops over time as the electronic item becomes ever more mainstream.

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

The hobby prices is getting out of control..Just as long as we are foolish enough to pay their "robber baron" prices they will continue to raise prices and laugh all the way to the bank..[}:)]

... And for those not wanting to pay "Robber Baron prices" there is brass track, 'Blue box' Athearn engines, and "Atlas #4 'Snap' switches". which from your posts, you are intimately familiar with.

QUOTE: "I have close to $1,400 in my DCC system and sound".

Congratulations ... Made by Baron who?.

[BRAKIE]

Don,I am not going to reply to your troll bait reply.Sorry!