advice from kids my age

[Big_Boy_4005]

Bikeman has done some digging over at Thor's, and come up wth some interesting suggestions. I'd like to share my thoughts on these plans.

I don't think this plan is really right for the space, but Mike probably realized that after posting it and went looking for more. http://www.thortrains.net/poorhof.html

This is a really cool shelf layout and will fit perfectly, the only thing is, it has no loop option. Alex, this is a very good choice along the lines of Bill's suggestion.
http://www.thortrains.net/4holayg.html

This one is almost exactly what I have suggested, except mine is a little more complex. My design has reverse loops in it so that you could turn the trains around. Reverse loops take some special wiring which we can discuss if you end up doing that.
http://www.thortrains.net/4holayf.html

This one is starting to get too big again. It could be made to fit, but the plan looks a little confused, like it doesn't know what it wants to be. I think some of the others we've seen are better.
http://www.thortrains.net/4holayd.html

This one brings us back to space problems. The bed and desk still need to fit in the room. This would have to be turned and go all the way in front of the window.
http://www.thortrains.net/4holaye.html

This one is very nice, and is the first double track loop we've seen. It could be extended by 2' . The ends would be out a little farther at 4' deep to accomadate the outer loop's 22" radius track. 4' depth was something I was trying to avoid for purposes of reach, and because of the door on the one end.
http://www.thortrains.net/4holay0.html

By the way, Thor is a member here, and occasionally pops in over on the CTT forum. His website probably has the most track plans in one place anywhere on the web. The secret is to sift through them, which is what Mike has done. Thanks Mike.

[Anonymous]

http://www.thortrains.net/4holayg.html http://www.thortrains.net/4holayf.html http://www.thortrains.net/4holayd.html http://www.thortrains.net/4holaye.html http://www.thortrains.net/4holay0.html heres a few track plans that might fit your space, needs, and wants from thortrains.net

[Anonymous]

http://www.thortrains.net/poorhof.html

[Anonymous]

Ok, here is what I am going to do. I will probably build a light wheight, easy to move version of 4005's layout for several reasons : switching layouts have to have really good trackwork for slow, smooth switching operations which is somthing I will probably not achive on my first layout. also, I am not very good a structure modeling and 4005's layout looks pretty rual to me. however once my modeling skills develope, the dogbone layout will be semi-retired and kept in the storage shed ( I will probably use it to display at train shows ) and I will build a more complex, structure intinsive, operation intisive shelf layout. I have not yet settled on a specific shelf plan, so any MR articals that you could suggest would be nice. Thanks for every ones help !!!!! I will probably start construction in late july, so I will keep you posted ! thanks again !!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

No arguement from me on any of that Bill. The answer here is for Alex to take these ideas, add some of his own and just build something!!!! IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE PERFECT. One way to learn is just try something. If you don't like it, make changes. Just remember, switching is fun!

[Anonymous]

hey Alex and Elliot -
I'm older than both of your ages added together ! I understand your point Elliot, but kids today are far more 'advanced' than we were at that age (that's both good and bad-at times as you may know if you have a teenager) and esp. w/ internet skills, better materials, easier access to reference stuff, far more model railroad and prototype magazines for inspiration and example, and a change in some of the ideas promoted in the hobby related to 'operating' a model railroad, as opposed to running trains. (and there's nothing wrong w/ that either, so let's not start a war of ideologies !) My son. until recently, often introduced me as "the Fossel" to his friends. Now that he is almost 20, he, on occasion, reluctantly admits that he is so amazed at how much I may know about something that he was an 'expert' on. . .

I have learned the hard way, after raising two kids, that they often know more about certain subjects than we do, or they think they do, and that their ability to grasp new ideas and new technologies is far superior than teaching us old dogs new tricks. In the final scheme of things, Alex will decide what kind of model railroad he wants, and subject to the approval of his board of directors - his parents - he'll build what will satisfy him.

Hopefully we have given him some things to consider, and I hope that at least one point I was sharing w/ him will register for his consideration - that always leave a 'door open,' or a spur, or an interchange possibility to incorporate this layout into a more extensive one later on, or to imply that the railroad actually went someplace "off of the layout" and to be somewhat realistic about what can and cannot be incorporated in the space he has available now.

Two sites I have uncovered - these were sent to me by a modelrailroading relative last nite - that are worth a look at, for they could be incorporated into most any layout, or even stand on their own for those truly facing very restrictive space limitations. They are germaine to what I was offering as a possibility for Alex to consider for his layout - www.wyman.info/ShuntingPuzzles/ and www.carendt.us/microplans/index.html

Re: the 'other guy w/ the same name' , he'll next express that this should now be an age restricted site - w/ Alex too young and me too old ! Stop it - don't go there - no repeats - we had our dose of "fun" last month - June is here and it's pretty outside - I can hear the Georgia Northeastern when the wind blows from the Southeast - we all exhausted our emotions and vented our spleens already, and I need to get back to the shop before my 'boss' comes home and discovers me on the Forum again! Good luck to you Alex and keep us involved in your progress. BILL

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bill mathewson

hey Elliot - what do you mean that you're not sure I realize "how young you guys are." - I, too, was young once upon a time, and I'm going thru at least my third,or is my fifth ?, childhood. . .

Seriously, Alex, if I can be of any help to you, don't hesitate to email me. It's great having new blood in this hobby.
BILL

It's like this Bill. I'm 43, and I have a son who will be 12 in October. Sometimes I have a hard time remembering back to when I was his age. When I do manage to shake off the cobwebs, I recall that running trains in circles was still all the rage for me back then. I want to say that I was about 15 or 16 before my understanding and taste matured to the point where circles weren't important anymore.

Perhaps with the internet and access to things like this forum, kids grow up a little faster these days. By the way, I'm still in my first childhood, gray hairs creeky body and all.[swg]

I wonder what the "other Bill" would say if he saw this topic. [:0][;)] It's this kind of stuff that makes the forum so valuable.

[Anonymous]

hey Elliot - what do you mean that you're not sure I realize "how young you guys are." - I, too, was young once upon a time, and I'm going thru at least my third,or is my fifth ?, childhood. . .

Seriously, Alex, if I can be of any help to you, don't hesitate to email me. It's great having new blood in this hobby.
BILL

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

What do you mean "Get bored running your trains in circles"!? Continuous run is the best!!!!

Don't worry, you'll outgrow that one day. I'm just not sure Bill realizes how young you guys are. He is absolutely correct in the long run though. Part of the trick here is gearing the answer to the audience.[swg]

Alex, it sounds like we have a basic concept that will work for you. The details can always be changed. So, do you think you are going to build it?

[Anonymous]

OK, I adapted 4005's layout plan to include a fiddle yard ( by the way, I re-mesured that space between the corner and the door. it is bigger than I thought, it will hold an 18 radi return loop, but it will be tight) bill's idea sounds like a good one because I do like realism and lots of operation. well thanks for all the suggestions, and I am open to much more. I geuss it's back to the drawing board, I will tell you what I come up with !

[Anonymous]

What do you mean "Get bored running your trains in circles"!? Continuous run is the best!!!!

[Anonymous]

If you build a switching layout as suggested by others, you could run it around at least two of the walls and run it as a point to point, with a possible short, hidden staging area so that the train has somewhere to go : " beyond the layout ". You'll most likely get bored if you just run your trains around in circles.

The British have been using what they call a "fiddle yard" for years, which are removable 'trays' with tracks on them that are used to collect and disperse rolling stock and even complete (short) trains. You would need a means to temporarily support these 'trays' when using them, but that should be easy to design. (if you decide to explore this idea, email me and I'll draw up some simple plans for attaching the "fiddle yards") I believe MR has had at least one article re: "fiddle yards" , but it was years ago. Another benefit of this approach is that you have a convenient way to store some of your rolling stock, when it's not on the layout. Just shove them under your bed stored in the 'trays' ,and make the 'trays' stackable.

A couple of other ideas come to mind. You could use a wye in a corner of the room at the end of the shelf layout, and especially in the corner between the long shelves that go down adjacent walls in the room.. Use the wye to turn an engine and a caboose, leaving the rest of the train on an adjacent sidings to be reconnected after the engine is turned and the caboose moved to the opposite end of the consist. Ditto w/ a short passenger train. The leg of the wye that sticks out into the room and in the way of other activities (like your dancing !) is sorta like what a three-legged man would look like, and how one of his legs would always be in the way. Suggest that you make that 'third leg' removable or hinged downward when not running trains.

Also, John Allen's "Time Saver" switching puzzle lends itself for incorporation in a shelf type layout, and it ads both realistic and challenging operational possibilities. If you're not familiar with the "Time Saver", let us know and we'll point you in the right direction to read up on it. It could be worked into a typical agricultural / industrial setting w/ a grain mill, farm and feed supplier, packing plant, even livestock pen(s),oil / fuel dealer, or oil -field tooling supply house (as an example how you can adapt most any switching layout to most any locale and era, and in this case, Oklahoma.

There was an interesting urban layout that I'll search for - it was in one of Kalmbach's how to do it books from half a century ago - and it certainly could be adapted to an Oklahoma setting, just one a bit more conjested than the last one I described. It had a partially hidden fairly steep short section of track that started out on a lower level near one end of the point to point layout and ducked under a rail girder bridge(or sub a trestle), and behind the lower level of the layout emerging behind and above that lower level at the opposit end of the layout. It was in essence, a switch back in the streets, which added more trackage than was possible if it had all been on one level, as well as it created an operational complexity, slowing down the trains, implying a longer run.
If I can locate it, I'll get a copy to you.

Lastly, you should consider modeling an era when 36 - 40 foot freight cars were the norm, as well as short commuter coaches, or even just a gas electric for an entire passenger train. If you use short steam engines, esp tank engines, you can forget about needing to turn them unless you want to. Also, the GE 44 Tonner, box cabs, and other short switchers needn't be turned unless you wanted to. Just provide a run arounf track for them at each end ot the layout. If you decide to model a more modern railroad in the future, you can downgrade your older, shorter equipment to MOW status, and you could have a tourist line to use your old prototype diesels, steam and passenger cars. Run short trains of short equipment on steeper grades in conjested areas and your layout will seem bigger than it is. If you don't always have the same rolling stock in sight, your layout will imply that it is actually a working enterprise and not just a display. That's another area where the "fiddle yard" proves so useful.

I wouldn't necessarily 'pigeon-hole' yourself into a particular prototype railroad at this early juncture, for you can always integrate this switching layout into a larger layout in the future. If you can get a copy of Linn Westcott's book about John Allen and his G & D layout, you'll get much inspiration and ideas for your layout, and you'll see how he integrated a small approx 4 x 7 foot layout into one of the most complete and wonderfully developed model railroads ever.
BILL.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Almost all HO locos should negotiate an 18' radius curve, It is basicly the minimum standard used by the manufacturers. For your purposes18" is about the most you should consider using. You will start to have reach issues in the corners if you go to 22" because the table top will have to move out to 4'. That will also start to be a problem behind the door. Even the 42" may be too much behind the door, but the corner could be clipped. The door still may not open all of the way, and if we can't fit it, we may have to make some changes.

Cmj, I didn't make that connection on purpose, but yes, that could be done. I wanted that front section to be a bit of a switching puzzle, and making that connection would make life too easy.[swg]

I just looked back at the dimension of the wall behind the door. 2 feet there is a killer, which way does the door swing, toward the short side or toward the closet. If the hinges are on the left as you enter, meaning that the door swings toward the closet, we are in much better shape.

[Anonymous]

yeah i think all of those locos will work

[Anonymous]

what kind of layout are you building, cjm89 ? 4005, would that layout support these locos : trainmaster, SD7, light mikado. thse are the largest things I plan to run on my layout. would they negociate the 18 radi curves and the #4 turnouts ? thanks !

[Anonymous]

From that plan you could also connect the spur off of the left curve with the right curve, and have a passing siding.

BTW Oklahoma Train Nut, I too am getting close to designing and building a starter layout, and it is going to include a interchange with the Rock Island.
So I will be one of the few m-rr'ers with the Rock as a road on my layout.

[Big_Boy_4005]

How about something like this Alex?

[Big_Boy_4005]

You need to get the image up to the web first. Do you have any online storage available? If not, you can attach it to an email, and I'll just look at it or if you want I can put it up here for you.

I'll be around for a little while yet, but we are going out to dinner in a couple of hours.

[Anonymous]

I like the dog bone plan, however I am concerned that it will limit me due to 18 radi curves, no room for sufficint staging, and little room for industries. I will draw it out on paper one more time along with a shelf layout I have designed then I will compare them. does anyone lnow how to post a drawing ? could anyone tell me ? Thanks !

[Big_Boy_4005]

You're welcome Alex. If we get the furniture settled, we can start thinking about the actual track plan.[swg]

The simple dogbone might work well in that space, we'll see. Another idea is to take a small rectangular layout from the book, and put it on the window end of the long wall, then add a shelf to it, running down toward the door. Continuous running and switching, it doesn't get much better than that in a small space.[swg]

[Anonymous]

Big Boy, might work ( I'll go upstairs here in a minute and lay it out with some E-Z track ). the space from the corner to the door is a little over 2 ft. Thanks !!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Alex, does your room look something like this?



I figured it out by seeing how you drew it in your other post. I used the quote button and was able to see the spacing that was lost by the forum when you posted it.

How far is the entry door from the lower right corner?
Will the furniture fit the way I have it shown?
Do you like it so far?

[Big_Boy_4005]

I don't see why not. Most of them are yard and industrial though. Wide open spaces usually only have a single track running through them. That's nice if your goal is to model the scenery, but in a limited space, I would think that you would prefer to squeeze in some track for the purpose of moving some cars around. Yards and industries have the activity and make great small layouts. Ask Jetrock if you can find him, he likes switching along city streets.

Plan 72 however may be just the ticket. It is 30" wide down most of it's length with a small bulge in the middle, where it widens to 48". That bulge has a small loop with tight curves, but it does allow you to turn a train on and let it go. This plan would need a little modification, because it is a little too long, 18' total. But one end could easily be clipped off without losing much of the fun.

Also, if Mark comes up with a magazine date for a plan, I have every MR back to 1950. I can look at them and make you a copy.

[Anonymous]

Big Boy 4005, are any of those plan adaptable for an oklahoma prairie theme ?

[Big_Boy_4005]

There are a few shelf layouts in "101 Track Plans". This a classic title from Kalmbach, which has been around longer than most of you guys have been alive, even Aggro. I think they updated the cover a few years ago, and of course the price keeps going up, but it still sells after all of these years. TRACK PLANS ARE TIMELESS!!!!! They are also adaptable![swg]

Guess what, I went down to the basement and found my 3 copies of 101 Track Plans. Cover prices of $2.00, $2.50 and $3.00. I knew it was old, but it was in it's third printing the year I was born, 1961!!!! It was first published in 1956!!!

Plans 6, 7, 8, 11, 12, 51, 55, 68* and 72* would all fit, though 68 and 72 would need to be modified. Some of these are small enough that they could be combined or added to to make something really cool.

[Anonymous]

Maybe a shelf layout or a switching layout would be adequate. I know exactly what you are talking about. I have the same problem with my parents. If only they were crazy about them too..........
Andrew

[Anonymous]

Sometime in the late 80's MR Published a nice 2 by 10 trackplan. I'll try to find it and give you the date.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Don't get wrapped up in the prototype Alex and Mark. Defining the space comes before what goes into it. You can make the railroad look like whatever you want once you know what the benchwork will look like.

I'm afraid the room drawing didn't quite turn out. Is it a perfect rectangle 10 x 14? If so, just start on one wall, and go around the whole room describing and giving the dimensions. Call the walls north, south, east and west.

[Anonymous]

I cannot have a 4x8, but I have not given up on the dog bone idea.