Attention all doubters!

[galad]

Sometimes their is oil and chemicals left on plastic from the moulding process which tends to pick up dirt more.  If you don't want to replace your plastic wheels you could try removing them and cleaning them occasionally, especially after you first buy them.

 Also remember that what you are using to clean your rails pretty much also cleans your metal wheels.  Dirt will be equally distributed (more or less) between the metal wheels and rail.  The same is not true for plastic wheels.  When using metal wheels cleaning the rails actually helps clean the wheels too, but it won't do anything for the plastic as the chemical residue on the plastic will hold the gunk better. 

Cleaning plastic is a different process, usually water and a mild dish soap is enough.  Whereas chemicals used to clean metal can actually degrade plastic thus making it worse.  At least thats my theory.

[cbqjohn]

TZ, well except for the plastic wheels, (cost is most likely a major factor) you left too early. It seems that there are more metal wheels than I am aware of), however 90% of my recent rolling stock purchases have been Micro Train. N scale, in my opinion, often equals the detail of larger scales and the selection is second only to HO.

John

[Texas Zepher]

cbqjohn

Except for some old ('70's & '80's) Atlas, MRC, Con Cor, etc which had the super large metal wheels,  most of my later purchases are Micro Trains, and all of my them have plastic wheels. I believe most of the other makes of new cars I have are equiped with plastic wheels,

Interesting.  Sounds like I left N-scale at the right time (micro-trains was still =Kadee at the time).  I wonder why the regression - just cost savings for the manufacturer I suppose?

[BRAKIE]

cbqjohn

Thanks Brakie,

Will try them, Are you satisfied with FVM cars?

John

 

John,Your Welcome..

The FVM cars are very nice and a good value.I like 'em and plan on buying several more...

[cbqjohn]

TZ,

Except for some old ('70's & '80's) Atlas, MRC, Con Cor, etc which had the super large metal wheels,  most of my later purchases are Micro Trains, and all of my them have plastic wheels. I believe most of the other makes of new cars I have are equiped with plastic wheels, at first I thought that many were blackened steel (and steel rims ie: Atlas) but they dont feel like steel nor do they have a metallic sound? I know the only replacement (spares) I have are plastic.

John

 

[cbqjohn]

Thanks Brakie,

Will try them, Are you satisfied with FVM cars?

John

[nighthawk44]

I agree wholeheartedly with JDVass's original post. In order to address the buildup problem I started experimenting with metal wheelsets 15 -20 years ago when they were first coming out. After a very short period of time I decided to invest the time and money -- and yes it was a considerable investment in the latter since I was looking at 100+ cars at the time.

I have never regretted the investement and one of the first things I do when I get a new car is change out the wheelsets -- if it doesn't already come with metal. The next thing is to properly weight the car based on the NMRA standards.

A word about electronic contact cleaner ("tuner cleaner" for us oldsters) .. Depending on the brand -- I suppose -- be very careful around moving parts (like switch points) as some of these soften plastic to the point of making it very gooey. If you're going to use it make sure it's on the railheads only.

 For all the reasons others have enumerated here I'm completely sold on metal wheelsets. I started just to keep my wheels and track from getting that irritating -- and electrically deadening -- gunk off the railroad. I've stayed with them all these years because they continue to work just fine.

[steige1]

I have slowly replaced all my rolling freight cars with metal wheels, and besides running smoother the best is I'm able to add 8 to 10 more cars to the train and it pulls easly with no noticeable engine load or strain. I once added a 2nd engine and added 20 more cars and it still pulled easly thanks to metal wheel sets. I too use my olds wheel sets for scrapyard scenes.

[BRAKIE]

Texas Zepher

cbqjohn

Sounds as if most/all of the folks that have voiced their opinion are modeling in HO.

Are there quality replacements wheels available in N scale?

Hmmm, I've never thought of it before because when I was in N-scale (1970-1983) all my wheels were metal from the factory.  I can't recall anything I ever owned that had plastic wheels.  The Atlas had plastic cores but they had metal tires.  What equipment do you have that has plastic wheels? 

 

TZ,Just about every car comes with plastic wheels..Atlas,Intermountain,Red Caboose,Athearn,MT etc.

Oddly Atlas sells metal replacement wheels.

 PS..

I just had to look..Fox Valley use MT trucks and has plastic wheels..

That's what I get for assuming FVM used metal wheels..I just got these cars Saturday and haven't looked at 'em till now.

[Texas Zepher]

cbqjohn

Sounds as if most/all of the folks that have voiced their opinion are modeling in HO.

Are there quality replacements wheels available in N scale?

Hmmm, I've never thought of it before because when I was in N-scale (1970-1983) all my wheels were metal from the factory.  I can't recall anything I ever owned that had plastic wheels.  The Atlas had plastic cores but they had metal tires.  What equipment do you have that has plastic wheels? 

[BRAKIE]

John,According to several discussions on other forums Fox Valley wheel sets is a excellent choice..Beyond my 2 FVM boxcars(which I haven't used yet) I have no real first hand experience.

http://www.foxvalleymodels.com/wheels.html

[cbqjohn]

Sounds as if most/all of the folks that have voiced their opinion are modeling in HO ???

Are there quality replacements wheels available in N scale?

Thanks,

John

[jwhitten]

AlienKing

JDVass

Okay, I didn't mean for anyone to have a snit.

The metal wheels have cured the problem for me. If you don't have a problem with plastic, that's great. You don't have to replace them.

I simply wanted to let people know that so maybe it would help someone.

In the interest of being scientific, you need to have some sort of control group here.

 

 

From the sound of things there _is_ a control group here... and another that's more relaxed

[vsmith]

Try doing this outdoors

Most large scale items came with plastic wheels, some still do, but it didnt take long to figure out that plastic wheels, no matter how good the maker claims their formulas are, left a nasty black film on the rails, now add in those who live in hot climates, the rails in the sun could get terribly hot and actually MELT the plastic wheels!!!

If whatever works for you is what works for you, thats fine, but I switch all my stuff to metal wheels, its a no brainer in any scale IMHO. All I clean off my rails is the occasional oxidation.

[doctorwayne]

Most of us would be well-advised to check out the links which Larry has posted. 

This "metal vs. plastic" topic continues to pop up regularly, as do the "how do I keep my track clean?" threads, yet no one seems to equate this with the countless other threads extolling spray painting rail, spraying glue for ballasting,  and building layouts in garages that will be shared with cars, and lawn equipment, not to mention the "how can I keep my 18 cats off the layout?" questions, or the photos of layouts in totally unfinished rooms. 

We all have to work within the constraints of space, budget, abilities, etc., but it's time to realise that all of these "non-train" variables have a profound effect on operational reliability.  The more control you are able to exercise over these conditions, the less likely you'll be to have problems.  Then you can choose metal wheels simply because you like the looks of them, or the sound they make, rather than as a solution to a problem that could have been otherwise controlled or eliminated.

Wayne 

[BRAKIE]

Geared Steam

BRAKIE

Sorry..I didn't mean to talk over your head..I see you have very little knowledge of the real problem.

Hardy over my head hotshot, I don't have a problem because I have ALL metal wheel sets, understand?

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't give you the power to talk down to us, if your in denial because you don't want the expense, so be it, I could care less. But don't try to insulting me, I don't play that hotshot, you don't know me, so SIT DOWN.

 

 

If you realize what I was saying was discuss on this and other forums-and I believe a MR article few years ago (the 90s?) I was talking down to no one but,bringing up facts from a earlier discussion concerning dirt on our tracks and the cause which is far beyond plastic wheels.Yes metal wheels helps but,isn't the cure all track cleaning problems...Even our locomotive wheels and cars with metal wheels teaches us that--just look at the almost weekly  topics on cleaning track..

Once we understand what really causes dirty track we can take preventive measures and correct the problem...

Here's some valuable information..

http://www.infotoolworks.com/modelrr/keeping-your-model-railroad-tracks-clean.html

http://www.rjftrains.com/sales/centerline/dirtytrack.htm

http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/cmx_chemist_review.htm

 

[Texas Zepher]

AlienKing

In the interest of being scientific, you need to have some sort of control group here. ... Challenage to anyone out there willing to do some research with a more scientific approach:

1. Clean the track real good by hand.
2. Clean the engine wheels really good.
3. Run the metal wheels in a fixed set of cars and engines for a few weeks.
4. Clean the track real good by hand in a consistent way. Use something disposable like paper towels and keep the left over towels as evidence of the amount of dirt removed.
Also keep track of any intermittent cleanings required.

Repeat steps 1-4 with some new clean plastic wheels ...

That is headed in the right direction but still has many side variables that would have to be controlled.  Then there is no quantitative method to measure the "dirtyness".     I've been thinking something more like this:

0. Set up in a temperature and humidity control environment. 
1. Get two sheets of plywood and lay two idential loops of track from the same batch of track (eliminating any NS composition / vendor issues and variance).   Connect both loops to the same power source.
2. Clean both tracks with the same bottle of cleaner and the same cloth.  Not one first and then the other but alternately working both.  Examine & photograph the rail tops.
3. (the first hard part) Get two idential locomotives and clean their wheels with cleaner out of the same bottle.  Run on a test track (not the subject track above) until it is proved they both have the same operating characteristics. 
4. Run 20 Athearn BB 40' box cars through a specification process for weight, couplers, height, etc. to get a statistically matched set (the second hard part).
5. gauge plastic (Athearn Derlin type) wheels for 10 of the cars and install.
6. gauge a set of metal wheels of a single brand (I'm not convience all metal wheels are created equal)  for the other 10 cars.  Make certain the axles are the exact length of those used on the plastic wheels. Make certain the wheel tread is the exact same width (statistically speaking) as the plastic wheels.
7. Assemble a train on each of the test tracks.
8. Turn on the power and run the trains around their loop for a week.
9. get a bunch of white linen swatches.  With each wipe exact length sections of track from the exact same portion of the layout.  example.  outside rail straight, inside rail of first part of turn 1, inside rail of straight right off turn 4, etc.
10. Scan the swatches into the computer and measure the darkness of the scan.
11. get a bunch of black linen swatches and repeat the sample taking (obviously using different portions of track).
12. Scan the swatches and measure the lightness of the scan.
13. Plot the data and look for results.
14. Examine / photograph the rail tops.
15. Analyze the before and after photos.

Look to repeat with different brand plastic and metal wheels.  Repeat with DCC/AC/on-board power.  Repeat with different locos. Repeat with longer cars.  etc.    Further - leave track dirty from one test and switch wheel types to see if the metal wheels "cleaned" the track.  etc. 

I figure it will take about a month from the very start to get first results and several (at least three) months to get through a whole array of tests.   Which is why I've never done this.  Until recently I haven't had room for a single test loop, let alone a test loop and two experimental loops. 

[gmcrail]

Geared Steam

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't give you the power to talk down to us, if your in denial because you don't want the expense, so be it, I could care less. But don't try to insulting me, I don't play that hotshot, you don't know me, so SIT DOWN.

 

 

Nor does it give you the right to tell him to sit down. It's a free Internet (moderators notwithstanding), and we all need to blow off some steam occasionally.  That said, The OP not, as far as I can tell, intend to talk down to anybody.  It's a legitimate topic for discussion, and it a subject about which he has a strong opinion, derived from a recent experience in which he believes he validated a common-knowledge belief/theory/fact.

BTW, I agree with him - metal wheels are better than plastic for keeping themselves and the track clean, but if you want to run plastic wheels, go for it - they're your trains. (And yeah, I got it that you have metal wheels, GearedSteam - the "you" in the preceding sentence was a generic one.) 

[AlienKing]

JDVass

Okay, I didn't mean for anyone to have a snit.

The metal wheels have cured the problem for me. If you don't have a problem with plastic, that's great. You don't have to replace them.

I simply wanted to let people know that so maybe it would help someone.

In the interest of being scientific, you need to have some sort of control group here. You did two different things here, and both could affect the amount of gunk.

A. You changed from plastic to metal.
B. You replaced old dirty wheels with new shiny clean wheels.

Are you sure it can be attributed to switching to 100% metal wheels, or just that you replaced all your old, gunk filled wheel sets with new clean ones(metal or not)?

Let us know in a year if the gunk problem has returned after the all the new shiny wheels have gotten sufficiently dirty.

Challenage to anyone out there willing to do some research with a more scientific approach:

1. Clean the track real good by hand.
2. Clean the engine wheels really good.
3. Run the metal wheels in a fixed set of cars and engines for a few weeks.
4. Clean the track real good by hand in a consistent way. Use something disposable like paper towels and keep the left over towels as evidence of the amount of dirt removed.
Also keep track of any intermittent cleanings required.

Repeat steps 1-4 with some new clean plastic wheels and run those for the same amount of time as a control group. Compare your new plastic results vs new metal results. Swap back and forth every few weeks and keep a log of the results. In a year, write up a summary of the results. Compare plastic to metal over the duration. Compare metal at the beginning to metal at the end. Compare plastic at the beginning to plastic at the end.

[Geared Steam]

BRAKIE

Sorry..I didn't mean to talk over your head..I see you have very little knowledge of the real problem.

Hardy over my head hotshot, I don't have a problem because I have ALL metal wheel sets, understand?

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't give you the power to talk down to us, if your in denial because you don't want the expense, so be it, I could care less. But don't try to insulting me, I don't play that hotshot, you don't know me, so SIT DOWN.

 

 

 

 

 

[JDVass]

Okay, I didn't mean for anyone to have a snit.

The metal wheels have cured the problem for me. If you don't have a problem with plastic, that's great. You don't have to replace them.

I simply wanted to let people know that so maybe it would help someone. If I have offended any plastic wheel users who know more about the conditions surrounding my layout better than I, please accept my appology. I will be more carefull as to what I post from now on.

[steemtrayn]

I use Intermountain wheels mostly for their rolling qualities. Some cars come with metal wheels with plastic axles and roll as if someone forgot to release the handbrake, so they get changed.

In the eight years i had my layout, I only cleaned the track once, using a bright boy. The only times I've experienced erratic running due to dirty track is after a long period of inactivity, and running a 30 car train a few laps seems to clear things up.

Since eliminating plastic wheels, I've had no gunk buildup problems'

[HarryHotspur]

 Undoubtedly each situation is different. Metal wheels solved my problem.

[Doughless]

Chartiers

MILW-RODR

..Metal wheels clacking on metal track sounds more realistic than silent plastic wheels.

I currently do not have metal wheels on any rolling stock, but am considering trying a few sets.  I can believe that they roll smoother and keep the track cleaner, but I'm wondering about the noise.  Don't know about the "clacking" sound changing between mosly flex track, a few pieces of sectional track and turnouts - does it sound a little weird? 

I use proto wheels, which fit very well into the trucks of Athearn blue box and older MDC Roundhouse kits.  Not sure every manufacturer's wheel sets fit as precisely into the trucks of all makers of rolling stock.  Some have a little too much slack and others cause the trucks to have to be reamed a bit.

They are noisier than plastic.  I hear more than the clack.  I can hear them as they roll on the non jointed part of flex track.  Its not exactly prototypical but not annoying either.  Even if you like dead silent locos and rolling stock, I think the benefits of easier rolling cars, cleaner track, and a bit better tracking since metal is heavier than than plastic, outweigh the noise.  

[BRAKIE]

Geared Steam

BRAKIE

 

I use both plastic and metal wheels and notice both picks up this crud equally well.

 

Jeez, I wonder why that is?

If you haven't figured this one out you have no place to tell someone to get of the soapbox. Now get off of your soapbox.

 

 

Sorry..I didn't mean to talk over your head..I see you have very little knowledge of the real problem.

[BRAKIE]

HarryHotspur

BRAKIE

Let's start with human dandruff,human skin,pet hair,pet skin,electrical residue,dust,bug droppings,dust mites etc.

 

How do you recommend getting rid of this stuff?  Some are easy: shampoo, shoot the pets, etc., but what about the rest?

 

Harry,Not much we can do..Our skin flakes in micro particles,dust is a unbeatable foe.Bug droppings..What can I say but,bugs are a way of life  from ants to spiders regardless how clean we keep our homes.These critters loves our basements,attics and garages.

 

I even seen mice dropping on the track at a HO club-the varmint built a rather nice nest in a tunnel during our layout rebuilding project-actually only the open areas (about 90%of the layout) got rebuilt/re scenic.

 

[UncBob]

Texas Zepher

tatans

Sounds like the best affirmative test you could do, plastic: dirt----metal: no dirt. can't get much simpler than that. The only problen I have is cost,

No, the other problem is there is still some other variable.  Our club spent several thousand dollars, converted to 100% metal wheels just for this issue.  Didn't work.  We still get the gunk, and now we have all that tinny noise to deal with.  Which is not realistic in any stretch of the imagination.  So I am still a doubter until I can do a really scientific study where I can control all the variables.

 

Oh by the way the club also spent several thousand dollars putting in a new drop ceiling, new dry wall on the walls, sealing the floor, putting filters in the air system, etc.  None of which helped the clean track issue.  Well, I shouldn't say that.  I am certain they all helped the issue.  Let me say, none of which solved the issue.   I started a program to gleam the rails but after weeks of just polishing the rail I calculated at the current rate I was achieving that it would take about a year to finish, so I gave up as there is just too much there to do.

 

Something to be said for smaller layouts 

[HarryHotspur]

BRAKIE

Let's start with human dandruff,human skin,pet hair,pet skin,electrical residue,dust,bug droppings,dust mites etc.

 

How do you recommend getting rid of this stuff?  Some are easy: shampoo, shoot the pets, etc., but what about the rest?

[Texas Zepher]

tatans

Sounds like the best affirmative test you could do, plastic: dirt----metal: no dirt. can't get much simpler than that. The only problen I have is cost,

No, the other problem is there is still some other variable.  Our club spent several thousand dollars, converted to 100% metal wheels just for this issue.  Didn't work.  We still get the gunk, and now we have all that tinny noise to deal with.  Which is not realistic in any stretch of the imagination.  So I am still a doubter until I can do a really scientific study where I can control all the variables.

 

Oh by the way the club also spent several thousand dollars putting in a new drop ceiling, new dry wall on the walls, sealing the floor, putting filters in the air system, etc.  None of which helped the clean track issue.  Well, I shouldn't say that.  I am certain they all helped the issue.  Let me say, none of which solved the issue.   I started a program to gleam the rails but after weeks of just polishing the rail I calculated at the current rate I was achieving that it would take about a year to finish, so I gave up as there is just too much there to do.