This prompts a discussion not approperate here. I have done both in my life, sold my knowledge AND made things with my hands - both are an honest days work. And honest work is something this culture needs a return to. But since so much is stollen by those in power, why should we work? Or build a locomotive kit?
Sheldon
So the solution is to throw up one's hands and surrender?
I'm retired. When I work on something, it's because it's intrinsically worth it and the act of doing is a refutation of the idea that the goal of life is in the having. Those that have done the stealing are not the winners, they're the losers.
Andre
andrechapelonSo what do you do when you want a locomotive that not only hasn't been made, but in all probability, won't be made? The component parts that went into the Bowser kits are useful for locomotives other than what Bowser manufactured as kits. There's a whole potload of Pacifics that could be built (partially scratchbuilt I grant you) using the K4 chassis as the starting point.
So what do you do when you want a locomotive that not only hasn't been made, but in all probability, won't be made? The component parts that went into the Bowser kits are useful for locomotives other than what Bowser manufactured as kits. There's a whole potload of Pacifics that could be built (partially scratchbuilt I grant you) using the K4 chassis as the starting point.
What's to stop someone from using the mechanism from a Bachmann K4 as a starting point for a different class pacific? The Bowser frame would suffer the same limitations in terms of length, driver spacing, etc.
Wow, that really is bad news. Bowser was the only company I know of that was still making steam locomotive kits. The lack of customers must have had something to do with their decision. Practically everyone today wants to buy everything in fully assembled form and then call themselves "modelers."
Uh oh, yet another "slam" on people who might not want to build engines from a bag of itty bitty parts. Gee, if I don't do that am I not a "real" modeler. I could care less about the elite old guard crew who wish to pat themselves on the back and look down their noses on those who *shock* may actually rather model a railroad rather than spend a long time building a single model. Well, there is model building and then there is model railroading. I'd rather model a railroad and yes, you can do that and get realism using a lot of RTR stuff. I'll make you a deal, I won't denigrate people who like to build models from many itty bitty parts if you will refrain from denigrating me for aspiring to model a railroad which may include a great deal of RTR items. So in my book, one can buy RTR and call themselves modelers, they just don't choose to model on the same level you do. Or is a model railroad not a model requiring modeling?
Model Railroading is fun! (I think?)
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Milepost 266.2 andrechapelon So what do you do when you want a locomotive that not only hasn't been made, but in all probability, won't be made? The component parts that went into the Bowser kits are useful for locomotives other than what Bowser manufactured as kits. There's a whole potload of Pacifics that could be built (partially scratchbuilt I grant you) using the K4 chassis as the starting point. What's to stop someone from using the mechanism from a Bachmann K4 as a starting point for a different class pacific? The Bowser frame would suffer the same limitations in terms of length, driver spacing, etc.
andrechapelon So what do you do when you want a locomotive that not only hasn't been made, but in all probability, won't be made? The component parts that went into the Bowser kits are useful for locomotives other than what Bowser manufactured as kits. There's a whole potload of Pacifics that could be built (partially scratchbuilt I grant you) using the K4 chassis as the starting point.
The driver spacing of any Pacific with driver diameters of from 77 to 80" is pretty close even if not dead on.
You don't need to be dead on accurate to the last nanometer, just close enough so that the difference isn't readily apparent. The 77" driver SP P-6 (and its UP twin) had drive axle spacing of 80", IIRC. An 80" driver K4 has driver spacing of around 84", again IIRC (as I don't have MR's Loco Cyclopedia handy). The difference is 4" in axle spacing. In HO scale, that's .046 inch, hardly something that will reach out and slap you across the face.
Have you checked out the Spectrum light 4-8-2 or its heavy brother. USRA 4-8-2's had a driver diameter of 69". The actual diameter of the Spectrum engines is 64" to allow for flanges that are larger than prototype. Can you tell the difference just by looking? Every locomotive model that follows a prototype with close axle spacing uses one or more of 3 techniques to adjust for larger model flanges:
1. Blind center drivers.
2. Undersized drivers.
3. Spreading the wheel base (and adjust the boiler accordingly) enough to allow prototype diameter drivers with oversize flanges.
Don't believe me? Check out some of those lovely sound equipped RTR models. I seem to remember (although my memory could be faulty) that the drivers on the BLI Santa Fe 3751 class 4-8-4 scale out to 76". The prototype drivers were 80". I can't really tell the difference just by looking at the model.
Some things require engineering tolerances (e.g. the side rods have to have the same spacing as the axle centers or the mechanism will bind). A lot don't. If you have to whip out a scale rule to determine if the model has any variances from prototype, I'd say whoever built the model (whether BLI, MTH, P2K or a scratchbuilder) was pretty successful.
riogrande5761 .... Practically everyone today wants to buy everything in fully assembled form and then call themselves "modelers." Uh oh, yet another "slam" on people who might not want to build engines from a bag of itty bitty parts. Gee, if I don't do that am I not a "real" modeler. ... Or is a model railroad not a model requiring modeling? Model Railroading is fun! (I think?)
.... Practically everyone today wants to buy everything in fully assembled form and then call themselves "modelers."
Uh oh, yet another "slam" on people who might not want to build engines from a bag of itty bitty parts. Gee, if I don't do that am I not a "real" modeler. ... Or is a model railroad not a model requiring modeling?
Yes, generalizations such as "practically everybody", and "modelers". Unless you have built a locomotive from a kit, you are not a modeler. Forget that you may have built a dozen trestles on six layouts, each with handlaid turnouts, and scratched all the structures....tsk... (shakes his head, and pats the person on the head) you're just not a modeller, son.
Sheesh. Lessee, if you haven't built any bridges or handlaid any turnouts....sorry guys...you just don't fit into the "club".
Selector opines:
I believe it was Groucho Marx that said he didn't want to join any club who would actually have him as a member.
Where's "Classic Model Railroading" when we REALLY need it?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL First, we have established that kit building is not cheaper than RTR. Second, regardless of any one individuals skills, or available time, many would rather persue other aspects of the hobby.
First, we have established that kit building is not cheaper than RTR.
Second, regardless of any one individuals skills, or available time, many would rather persue other aspects of the hobby.
There is the rub---it all comes down to the CASH, man. Now what? We have become tools of our tools.
So, why not just buy the already to run layout on the knock down table? It has everything there--including the locos/cars/bldgs/trees----you could probs get someone to throw one together for you. We can even get all kinds of rail simulation video games and just enjoy it that way----meanwhile guys like me find fewer kits and fewer kits---great market---works for some, others get nothing?
Not so sure this is intended but the results are there---if RTR gets so expensive that a small market is all thats left then what are the rest to do-----basketweaving------
Whole to this puppy INCLUDES kit building, scratchbuilding---it INCLUDES tracklaying. Now we think of the whole as being only the RTR stuff---funny that ---WHOLE means ALL aspects, not just those we find convenient.--look at the prototypes for pete's sake---they had to use patience( a word just abhored in this culture), planning and tenacity if they were going to master the Rockies----with our mindset today would this even happen?---NO----because it COSTS TOO MUCH MONEY. This patience is not something that falls unbidden from the sky---it had to be LEARNED. And how are we to learn this? Not by RTR does patience come---- but then---
I am working with a disabled child who will probably do more kit building/scratchbuilding than most of us simply because he is more interested in challenging his physical limitations that we as fit people take for granted---------------He has the time---------We have the clock.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Milepost 266.2What's to stop someone from using the mechanism from a Bachmann K4 as a starting point for a different class pacific? The Bowser frame would suffer the same limitations in terms of length, driver spacing, etc.
That why I'm snooping around the idea of cnc milling machines---I'd build the dang frames myself if need be----
blownout cylinder Milepost 266.2What's to stop someone from using the mechanism from a Bachmann K4 as a starting point for a different class pacific? The Bowser frame would suffer the same limitations in terms of length, driver spacing, etc. That why I'm snooping around the idea of cnc milling machines---I'd build the dang frames myself if need be----
Hey man, REAL machinists build their own CNC mills.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6drMZqmyXQc
Then there's jig axles: http://brassbackshop.com/BBSFiles/Jig_Axles.doc
This company (British) makes jigs for chassis assembly. http://www.avonsideworks.com/index.html
Not to mention this B&B in Britain that offers seminars in loco construction http://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/ as well as supplying a chassis jig: http://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/masterchassis1.php
They also do needlecraft.
Incidentally, you might be interested in Yahoo Brasslocobuilders group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/brasslocobuilders/?yguid=71526938
andrechapelon blownout cylinder Milepost 266.2What's to stop someone from using the mechanism from a Bachmann K4 as a starting point for a different class pacific? The Bowser frame would suffer the same limitations in terms of length, driver spacing, etc. That why I'm snooping around the idea of cnc milling machines---I'd build the dang frames myself if need be---- Hey man, REAL machinists build their own CNC mills. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6drMZqmyXQc Then there's jig axles: http://brassbackshop.com/BBSFiles/Jig_Axles.doc This company (British) makes jigs for chassis assembly. http://www.avonsideworks.com/index.html Not to mention this B&B in Britain that offers seminars in loco construction http://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/ as well as supplying a chassis jig: http://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/masterchassis1.php They also do needlecraft. Incidentally, you might be interested in Yahoo Brasslocobuilders group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/brasslocobuilders/?yguid=71526938 Andre
Now you done it!! TNX for the links------
The issue for this puppy is just what got answered--so the work starts------
You're welcome. Enjoy.
I have two thoughts since apparently no one has read my comments on poage 2 of thsi discussion:
1. Another individual is taking up the line and plans to bring them into the 21st century and improve the kits. THEY WILL STILL BE AVAILABLE TO TOSE WHO WANT TO BUILD THEM.
2. Stating that they are too difficult is a cop out. Name one thing you do in life that you didn't have to learn? When you built your first layout did you have the complete knowledge to handle every aspect and it was museum quality on your first attempt? Choosing not to is ok if you want to learn other areas of model railroading but there is tremendous satisfaction and cinfdence in learning how to do anything amd working through the problems.
Andre,
You have taken a philosophical approach to this but kept it on task, about model trains, and I largely agree with you view, but have no personal interest in "saving" the modeling public from themselves.
I could go on about a lot of "philosophical" things that I see as wrong in the hobby, but I'm not likely to change them.
Barry (and a few others) have made comments that reflect an elitist, "I know better what is good for the masses than they know themselves" attitude. That offends my conservative views. Hence my response to Barry regarding topics not approperate here.
I looked long and hard a Bowser over the last few years as a way to fill out some missing spots in my fleet. But in the final analysis, it never seemed like a good idea.
I don't know what you did before retirement, or what Barry's back ground is, BUT can and have:
Designed and built houses, (yes, I can do most every trade)
Historically restored many 100 year old homes and buildings to the highest standards.
Received an Award and appeared on national TV regarding the restoration of my own 107 year old Queen Anne home.
Designed and built control systems that run the infrastructure of towns, cities and factories.
Hit what I aim at with a rifle or a pistol.
Assembled automobiles from the ground up (yes the whole car).
Earned my own money with my hands and mind.
And been building model trains for 40 years.
I don't need anyone telling me what is a loftier pursuit or how to spend my time or money or that my value system is defective. It is defective liberal value systems that have caused this, not mine.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Barry (and a few others) have made comments that reflect an elitist, "I know better what is good for the masses than they know themselves" attitude. That offends my conservative views. Hence my response to Barry regarding topics not approperate here.
You did a lot more than me in a few areas. Mind, I also did restoration of an 1850's 'carpenter gothic' style house---that was a treat!---and a few other things but you know--I did not intend that 'elitist' thing. The issue I'm having here is that this RTR thing---which may have been hugely distorted by what we've all been seeing these past few years---has put the kibosh on a lot of industries in MRR'ing. If we didn't see all this rigmarol going on maybe this wouldn't have been a huge issue.
I can see where you would be coming from although I found your posts somewhat confusing at times---if one did not find it their bag to kitbuild then why get into the arguing in the first place kind of thing for one----but oh well.
My issue is that the ideology that time=money distorts a lot of thinking about what hobbies are about. I'm not so sure that this will do any hobby good if one is to think in those terms all the time---we do this enough in the working world why do it here as well kind of? So I prattle on about kit building the way I do probs more out of frustration more than 'elitist' thingumahoover theory here. Talk of open markets when that same market forces some into closure---when all that was needed was to spin the 'losing' element off ---is not quite the way to do things I feel.
Part of my hysterical babbling has more to do with the fact that I am only in this hobby for about 4 years now hence I'm a mere strippling as opposed to some of you. And so it goes-----
As for my rhetorical babblings---I apologise to anyone who may have been stomped on. I did not intend to stomp on you ------
blownout cylinderMy issue is that the ideology that time=money distorts a lot of thinking about what hobbies are about. I'm not so sure that this will do any hobby good if one is to think in those terms all the time---we do this enough in the working world why do it here as well kind of?
My issue is that the ideology that time=money distorts a lot of thinking about what hobbies are about. I'm not so sure that this will do any hobby good if one is to think in those terms all the time---we do this enough in the working world why do it here as well kind of?
I see it as more of a time=time argument.
Let's say it takes 40 hours to carefully assemble, test, paint and detail a Bowser loco. At the end of this 40 hours, I have something that is basically the same as a RTR model in appearance and functionality. If I spent 40 hours on a structure by scratchbuilding/kitbashing/building a craftsman kit, I have a truly unique item that no one else has. Some may be similar, but no two will be the same. Both have given me an equal sense of personal accomplishment (or relief that it's finally done), and the 40 hours are gone and they're not coming back.
I see "modeling" as more of an artistic endeavor. Putting a steam locomotive kit together is a lot of assembly work. There's only one way to hook up the drivers, wheelsets, electrical pickups and motor, or it simply won't work. If it's the only way to get what I want, I'll do it, but if I can trade that time in for time spent doing something unique and creative, I'll jump on that in a heartbeat.
Sure, some people are using RTR (in all it's prebuilt forms) as a crutch. I wonder what the percentage of people starting out with RTR who will "graduate" to more advanced techniques is versus the percentage of people who have stopped building kits in favor of a shortcut.
ndbprrI have two thoughts since apparently no one has read my comments on poage 2 of thsi discussion: 1. Another individual is taking up the line and plans to bring them into the 21st century and improve the kits. THEY WILL STILL BE AVAILABLE TO TOSE WHO WANT TO BUILD THEM.
Not according to the information that I just received:
Hello to all! I haven't been on the group for some time now, and am hoping to do so more as Spring approaches and things get a little "caught up" around here (hopefully). I've looked over several of the emails during the last few days about the Bowser situation, and have seen some good info there. Several have made some great points, and even encouraged many others. I appreciate the input from all, and thought I would add some, and perhaps put some light on this topic, as well. First, let me assure you that the Do-It-Your-Self'ers are alive and well. Our recent parts orders, even during this hard economic crunch, are extremely indicative of that fact. Actually, the crunch has driven many to take up this aspect of the hobby, simply because they are somewhat limited in funds now, and intend to keep their hobby going. As a result, I have heard many say they are using a part of what they would have spent on a new loco, to fix up several of their own. I can personally tell you we have received dozens of calls from modelers asking how to install a part, or "how do I do this". While it has been extremely challenging on this end (and on many of theirs as well), it is encouraging to see this aspect coming back to life. That is not to say other methods of model RR'ing are not as worthy! I believe everything has its place, and obviously if there wasn't a market for something, it wouldn't be there. I'm thankful for all of the products on the market. As Henry has said many times over, it's YOUR hobby and railroad, and the beauty of all of this is, you do it how YOU like. Each of us have individual preferences, and again, that is what makes up all the neat aspects of this hobby. Our group is comprised of great modelers from every area, and each have talents at what they do. Even many of our members who are new to the hobby are contributing great thoughts and insights. I have had scores of calls and emails asking about Bowser, rumors, etc., so I thought I would give you some info I have to help clear up some things. When we first took on our Bowser distributorship several years ago, I knew Lee had been discouraged with the steam kits, and visited with him about that. He explained that the labor costs were high in this area, and that a lot of time was spent assembling these kits to sell. He also let me know he wasn't sure how long he would do them. When pressed about this later on, Bowser made a statement that they were not "discontinuing" them, but would only do them after so many orders came in for each kit. In visiting with both Gerry and Kathy at Bowser over the following months, it seemed to me that the orders came in well, so I was hoping the kits would go on. I could tell that Lee was less and less ambitious about steam in general, and pointing more towards diesel. He mentioned to me that he felt overall steam to diesel sales ratio is 1:99 (now, please understand that this was his estimate, not mine). A couple of weeks ago when I first heard the news of considering to completely discontinue the steam kits, I again visited with Lee. This time I could tell he has a definite interest in diesel and RTR in particular. He mentioned he would be able to cut his staff by 10 people when ending the kits. When I asked him about possibly manufacturing steam kits for us, he told me that was a possibility if we purchased 150 of a single item. I'll definitely have to do a lot of thinking before proceeding with that. Of course, Bowser will continue to offer many quality RTR diesel locos as well as cars. As someone in our group pointed out, there is no doubt that the profit per steam kit was not able to compete with purchasing a current loco and reselling it. As much as we like to have something for all the different modelers, keeping the money coming in is definitely a priority with most businesses. Lee did offer to sell Bowser to us, but the amount is not feasible for us (or probably any other company at this time) to invest, especially during this financial time in our nation. I am not looking at purchasing Bowser, and he does not intend to sell just a part of it (i.e.: tooling for steam kits) at this time. When a rumor was brought to me about Lee making an "arrangement" with another company to carry on kits, I again visited with him, and he informed me, "I have not made any arrangements with anyone". He has stated that he does not intend to do so. That conversation took place yesterday. As for our kit-bashers, I don't believe you can stop a hard core "basher" in his habit. The true bashers (and we have several of veterans in our group) will find a piece of bailing wire, a 16 ga. finish nail, and some brass pieces, and will turn a plain loco into a masterpiece with enough time and tools. All they need is to find something "close" and they love to do the rest. I've heard of many who when told something couldn't be done, responded like a dog that heard his master say "sic'um". I believe the spirit of bashing will always be alive and well, albeit, maybe less candidates as time goes by. The kit builders will be the ones that hurt the most from this, but hopefully ebay and other markets will supply enough material to keep you guys going for a while. Some of the prices may increase, but hey, I still hear of early Mantua kits going for under 60 bucks from time to time. I see YB has been mentioned many times recently in various groups, so I need to also let you know where we stand. Yes, we are a Bowser distributor, but I also purchase lots of parts from out-sources. For example, I have been purchasing parts for extinct locos from many who find these items at sales, old hobbyshop closeouts, etc. on a regular basis. While it can be stressful at times, we have managed to keep a fairly decent inventory on hand. I'm sure we can also continue to stock most of the pertinent Bowser parts. We still have all of the parts for the JEng. locos on hand, and they went extinct in 1954. I may get to the place where I need a person just to locate and purchase parts, but I intend to do all I can to keep these items available as long as possible. I am also considering remanufacturing many needed items for locos from previous years. Yes, we do honor relevant patents to the fullest, and intend to maintain integrity in all we do. For example, there are no patents that dictate the spacing on rod holes, so having side, main, and valve gear rods of our own made that has exact spacing to fit certain mfg locos is not a violation. We will always strive to purchase original pieces, but when those sources dry up, we will be looking at other means. I might also mention that the Mantua parts we remake are with the permission of Model Power, who is the step-owner. All in all, while this latest news poses somewhat of a challenge to some, it is just an opportunity to dig in a little deeper and keep our interests going in the direction we choose. As they say, when the going gets tough, the tough get going! Once again, I am glad to see so many involved with these subjects. That shows interest from all aspects of our hobby. The only thing Henry and I ask for is that we make sure to respect all the different areas while we share. Thanks again to all! Dan Bush - Yardbird Classic Trainswww.yardbirdtrains.com
Of course it isn't a cop out. I'm not much good at advanced math or swimming, and no amount of training or repetition will ever improve those skills. I'll bet I'm better at some things than you are, and always will be because of innate talent.
Everyone in this country is equal in the eyes of the law. That doesn't mean that everyone is the same in "real life". People are innately good and/or bad at various things for various reasons. LOTS of people are just plain bad at working with their hands, and no amount of yelling at them to "try harder" will fix that.
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
Barry,
Just to clarify my defination of "value" - If someone came out with a kit for something I want, let's say a Western Maryland Pacific, and it had the following features:
All wheel pickup, sprung drivers, diecast boiler for good weight, can motor and good gear reduction drive, complete detailing included to the typical level of todays brass or plastic/die cast RTR locos, and sold for, lets say $200 or even $250.
I would buy at least two in a hot New York second and start building, and not care how many hours it takes to assemble them. But that product is not out there, and the product we are discussing is no where near that product. Not to mention my disinterest in the PRR.
As to all this other stuff, if I misunderstood your meaning, I too am sorry. Again for me the hobby is about the whole package, and all the available resources of time and money must be balanced to meet the goal. So if one project gets too expensive or too time consuming, its value to the whole must be questioned, not strictly in a monitary sense, but in terms of moving successfully toward the goal.
I was not defending either side, other than to point out not everybody likes every possible aspect of the hobby. I freelance, and therefor almost every locomotive is a "project" for me since I have yet to get Bachmann to Walthers to include my roadname in their production. Each unlettered loco (diesel or steam) must be painted, decaled, have details assembled and/or applied and so forth. I do this hobby to build stuff.
But I don't go out of my way to make every project as hard as possible. So a kit bashed Bachmann USRA heavy Mountain with a different tender and new paint job is more expedient than a Boswer kit. And, it runs just as good and looks better, regardless of dollar cost either way. so much so I have six of them.
I am building a large layout, that will require a lot of locos and rolling stock, and while I have accumulated a fair amount in 40 years, I would like to reach a certain level of completion in a reasonable time frame. I already have over 100 locomotives, the desired roster only needs a few more. When the right stuff shows up in the market, kit or RTR, I will aquire it, and build or modify it as needed.
Well This definatly sucks. I still need 80 Bowser Locos of various types. Where am I going to find them now?
James
Based upon the information provided by Ray Breyer's recent posting citing a letter from Yardbird Trains it does sound like Bowser's die-cast steam locomotive line has indeed gone belly up.
I did not complete my first Bowser kit until about 1971 while on duty in Germany. Prior to this time I had assembled four or five Cary/Mantua kits and seeing Bowser kits on sale through a stateside mail order house I ordered two NYC K-11 Pacific kits. About 1971 I decided I wanted to assemble a Challenger as my next kit but the mail order house I had been using informed me that the Challengers were out of production. Thinking perhaps that English would have one I went directly to them with the same result. In 1975 I contacted my local who went to Bowser for information on opening an account and he was informed by them that an order of three of each of their offerings would be required; he had been in business then for about fifteen months and I was only the second person who had inquired about Bowser steam locomotives. Needless to say I went back to my mail order source.
At one time I purchased an MDC Ten-Wheeler kit; these came with inboard piston valves and I wanted to convert it to outboard piston valves with Baker valve gear. For reasons which have become obscure with the passage of time I got rid of this loke almost immediately but some time later someone published an article in one of the hobby magazines about doing exactly what I had wanted to do using Bowser as a source for outboard piston valves. I am sure that had I stayed with HO-Scale I would have assembled several more Bowser locomotives as well as a number of MDC locomotive kits. Now, with Bowser apparently gone from the steam locomotive kit market, that leaves only MDC and maybe this will be an incentive for Horizon to give consideration to reissuing MDC's COMPLETE line which they now own.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Ray Breyer:
Having seen some of your detail jobs (at least on the Internet), I'm inclined to agree heartily with that last statement. Underneath all that lovely detail, naturally, is a locomotive that started out as a RTR model. We may all have you to thank for nearly single handedly keeping PSC in business.
I'm not (yet) a member of the Yardbird trains Yahoo group ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/yardbirdtrains/ ), but I have been reading some of your comments there. Thankfully, they allow lurkers read only privileges to the message board. I've gotta say that I find your comments both here and there spot on.
I personally have nothing against RTR especially since well detailed and smooth running locos like the Spectrum series form a good basis for detailing and/or bashing (much as Tom Dill did to a Spectrum 2-8-0). Nonetheless, the news that Bowser was getting out of the steam business kinda threw me for a loop for a little while. An acquaintance of mine is bashing a Bowser K-11 into an SP P-11 (ex EP&SW) and from what I've seen, it's going to turn out to be a nice model when he's done. I may even have a miniscule role in the successful completion of his project since I told him that the trailing truck off an MDC ATSF 4-4-2 is extremely close to that used on the P-11 prototype. Not dead on accurate, mind you, but close enough.
None of us, not even those who are fans of the most popular railroads, are going to have everything we want supplied by manufacturers either in kit or "mass produced" RTR form. The basic choices we have in those cases is to do without, bite the bullet and buy brass where available (new or used), or do some or all of it ourselves. I seriously doubt that anyone will ever make a Harriman heavy Pacific even though they were used by 2 of the most popular prototype railroads (not to mention the Chicago & Alton). I really want at least one SP P-6. I've seen pictures of one modeler's conversion of a brass UP model. Magnificent job, but expensive. The most palatable options seem to be to use a Bowser or Mantua chassis and scratchbuild the boiler (something I've never done) or wait until Athearn re-issues the USRA light Pacific and use that as a starting point knowing that the drivers would be undersized and the boiler contour isn't quite right. It's a tossup either way. The Bowser drivers are slightly oversized and I don't want to add the complication of trying to adapt Greenway's 77" drivers with 3mm diameter axles to a chassis designed for axles with 1/8" diameter axles.
NOTE to all and sundry: Don't do this at home. I am one of the world's leading experts in "analysis paralysis". The above is just a minor example of my incredible ability to analyze things to death.
I can confirm the comments that have been made about Bowser kits being gone - there have been some misconceptions about Eddystone Locomotives http://www.eddystonelocomotives.com/ upgrading and carrying on the Bowser line - I'm afraid this isn't so. What they have is an arrangement in place to use Bowser components in future custom built models - to quote David Grover of Eddystone Locomotives in an e-mail to me today:
"I too have heard it already distorted that I " will produce the Bowser KITS..." Simply not true, rubbish in fact, if Bowser can't make a go of it anymore, how could I? Yes, by all means counter the rumor."
Sorry guys!
It doesn't sound like they have given up on the Steam Kit business, it just may not be selling as big as the diesel line. It looks they would still produce them in batches given suitable orders available. But thats how some of these China produced models are done, in batches, why you may see an out of stock for a while till the order arrives in its huge one time batch.
They haven't changed the steam kit website so it seems you could still put them on order if not in stock, but expect a wait.
I was looking for a USRA 2-10-2 and considered Bowsers for the model I am planning (BRofC) but went with Bachmanns onboard DCC (ebay buy, model was borked, seller exchanged for free, replacement perfect)
But I might still be interested in the Bowser and I have an old Bachman J their rreplacement drive is perfect for it. I sure don't want them to drop the steam kit line.
The Eddystone thing looks good that it helps the businees but they purchase from Bowser and mod them/build them.
So don't be so doom and gloom on the steam kits yet, but their interest in the kits as a money maker makes sense from a business standpoint, but from a hobby standpoint, whadya do.
I don't want to be a doom monger, but... here's the e-mail from Lee English of Bowser - sounds like the kits are gone to me:"Just a little note to all our customers,Bowser has discontinued HO steam locos, turntables, Standard gauge and O gauge replacement wheel production.We will continue to make our HO diesel locomotives, HO freight car, N freight cars, HO trolleys, Cal Scale, Selley and Cary detail partsWe have plans for many new products but, they do not include any steam locos in any scale. Steam loco parts are still available but when our supply is exhausted I do not plan to restock.Thank You for all your interest over the years.Lee English, PresidentBowser Mfg. "
Eddie_waltersI don't want to be a doom monger, but... here's the e-mail from Lee English of Bowser - sounds like the kits are gone to me:"Just a little note to all our customers,Bowser has discontinued HO steam locos, turntables, Standard gauge and O gauge replacement wheel production.We will continue to make our HO diesel locomotives, HO freight car, N freight cars, HO trolleys, Cal Scale, Selley and Cary detail partsWe have plans for many new products but, they do not include any steam locos in any scale. Steam loco parts are still available but when our supply is exhausted I do not plan to restock.Thank You for all your interest over the years.Lee English, PresidentBowser Mfg. "
Thanks for sharing it, dunno how this all will end up, if this is so it will go the way like the others have.
R. T. POTEETAt one time I purchased an MDC Ten-Wheeler kit; these came with inboard piston valves and I wanted to convert it to outboard piston valves with Baker valve gear. For reasons which have become obscure with the passage of time I got rid of this loke almost immediately but some time later someone published an article in one of the hobby magazines about doing exactly what I had wanted to do using Bowser as a source for outboard piston valves. I am sure that had I stayed with HO-Scale I would have assembled several more Bowser locomotives as well as a number of MDC locomotive kits. Now, with Bowser apparently gone from the steam locomotive kit market, that leaves only MDC and maybe this will be an incentive for Horizon to give consideration to reissuing MDC's COMPLETE line which they now own.
I am guessing that article was one written by John Swanson, and published in Railroad Model Craftsman around 1977. (There was also a series of similar articles in the 1980s.) That fellow assembled a number of interesting engines that combined parts from Bowser, MDC, Mantua kits. (He also used stuff from Mellor and Lee Town as well.)
Dan
Master of Big Sky Blue Well This definatly sucks. I still need 80 Bowser Locos of various types. Where am I going to find them now? James
Start with eBay--branch out the searches---they're still out there---
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just to clarify my defination of "value" - If someone came out with a kit for something I want, let's say a Western Maryland Pacific, and it had the following features: All wheel pickup, sprung drivers, diecast boiler for good weight, can motor and good gear reduction drive, complete detailing included to the typical level of todays brass or plastic/die cast RTR locos, and sold for, lets say $200 or even $250. I would buy at least two in a hot New York second and start building, and not care how many hours it takes to assemble them. But that product is not out there, and the product we are discussing is no where near that product. Not to mention my disinterest in the PRR.
That would be a good set up for sure----can motor that pulls would be something that would be sure. And 2 in a consist would look good
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I am building a large layout, that will require a lot of locos and rolling stock, and while I have accumulated a fair amount in 40 years, I would like to reach a certain level of completion in a reasonable time frame. I already have over 100 locomotives, the desired roster only needs a few more. When the right stuff shows up in the market, kit or RTR, I will aquire it, and build or modify it as needed.
Just make sure that no one is telling you that you need a warehouse----one fellow I know up here is looking at a large layout IN a warehouse!! Now that I read this a little closer I can see where you are coming from. My peevishness comes more from poor business decisions leading to ever more odder scenarios----those kinds of things don't help---and hopefully you'll find what you need----
My layout is being built in a 22 x 40 room above my 6 car detached garage/workshop.
It is a double deck, double track mainline, about 8 scale miles in a continious route thru hidden staging for about 20 trains.
It was well underway, but is currently being rebuilt into modules that will allow it to move in the future.
20 trains in 1954, two steamers or 3-4 diesels each = 60 powered units minimum.
20 trains, 15 are freight x 35 cars = 525 freght cars, 5 x 7 passenger cars = 35 passenger cars
I think some of it will need to be ready to run.
With the size of the room will you have enough structures and such or will you go the Lance Mindheim route
The one I'm working on helping build, is for a physically challenged child and his father who lives just down the street from me, comes in at 65'X35'(benchwork is approx 26" along walls leading to a 60" peninsula with a 98" blob at the end. Eric, the boy in this case calls the layout a " dragonfly with folded wings"----basically around three walls and a peninsula. He's the child I mentioned in one of my screeds wants to buy kit locos just so he can work his hands---ergo my griping.
My own layout right now is in a 18'X20' room that I share with my computers and part of a ridiculous book collection---LOL!!!---Oh--and a "Spring' who occasionally has been known to abscond with a caboose and dip it into a cup of water like it was a teabag!!---both layouts are protolanced--