Well as someone who tried and failed to get a Bowser 2-8-0 kit to run (let alone complete the kit) I can see why a Spectrum RTR 2-8-0 is more popular !! But we'll see what happens. As someone noted, Mantua went out of business in 2001 - but improved versions of many of their engines are now available from Model Power in their "Mantua Classics" line. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar didn't happen to the Bowser line. BTW didn't the Bowser line used to be made by "Penn Line"??
I hadn't realized there were so many issues with the accuracy of the models until the latest NYC Hist. Soc. magazine showed up which features a story on building a Bowser model of a K-11 Pacific. The model needed extensive work to make it an accurate model of the prototype - not just adding detail but changes to make the model accurately reflect the prototype engine.
At one time I think a good part of Bowser's business was the re-power kits they offered for the various Bachmann steam engines. I've been planning to get one for my old Bachmann "J" for years but never did get around to it.
p.s. Remember this is just the steam engine line that's being discontinued. Bowser's Stewart diesels are apparently selling quite well...though I was sad to hear they indefinetely postponed the Erie Mining Co. F-9's due to lack of pre-orders.
stokesdaCome on, guys. I'm sorry for you that Bowser's no longer making steam loco kits, but this anti-"RTR Crowd" rhetoric is getting kind of tired. Seems like this kind of "debate" is a staple of this forum, though
So there may be some people who did buy the kits and such---now they get to do some hunting and gathering----don't forget, we also had threads that jumped on people who stockpiled for precisely this very reason so OOPS to your ocular muscle pain. BTW--the ocular pain comment is definitely a good comeback!!
stokesda And for those of you who are feeling guilty for not buying any of Bowser's kits and contributing to their demise - give me a break! Circuit City just went out of business. Chrysler might not be around this time next year. Are you blaming yourselves for not buying more electronics and mini vans? Bowser felt the cost of producing and maintaining (and/or upgrading) the product line was not justified by the demand signal from the market. C'est la vie. Would your purchase of a single kit or two have prevented them from discontinuing production? Maybe, but probably not. But your purchasing decisions shouldn't be based on keeping a company or product line afloat just for the sake of having it around (in theory, at least). It should be a personal decision based on your own needs, desires, and values. Is the feeling of satisfaction in completing the loco kit worth the investment in time required to build it? Do you model PRR steam in HO? Are you willing to pay a higher overall price to superdetail the kit to the level of detail of a comparable modern RTR plastic model? For me personally, the answer to all 3 is "no." I concede that it is a shame to see a product line like this being discontinued (for the time being, at least), but I don't feel guilty because of it.
And for those of you who are feeling guilty for not buying any of Bowser's kits and contributing to their demise - give me a break! Circuit City just went out of business. Chrysler might not be around this time next year. Are you blaming yourselves for not buying more electronics and mini vans? Bowser felt the cost of producing and maintaining (and/or upgrading) the product line was not justified by the demand signal from the market. C'est la vie. Would your purchase of a single kit or two have prevented them from discontinuing production? Maybe, but probably not. But your purchasing decisions shouldn't be based on keeping a company or product line afloat just for the sake of having it around (in theory, at least). It should be a personal decision based on your own needs, desires, and values. Is the feeling of satisfaction in completing the loco kit worth the investment in time required to build it? Do you model PRR steam in HO? Are you willing to pay a higher overall price to superdetail the kit to the level of detail of a comparable modern RTR plastic model? For me personally, the answer to all 3 is "no." I concede that it is a shame to see a product line like this being discontinued (for the time being, at least), but I don't feel guilty because of it.
You qualify as a ranter as well as the rest of us. We all are getting a little sensitive to this for a reason. The market has changed and in some ways maybe not in a good way. As some have pointed out before, hopefully someone will buy the molds and continue the grand tradition of making affordable steam kits as opposed to much more expensive RTR so some of us can buy the kits?!?!
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
To all good things there must come an end. In my opinion Bowser was always the top pick in steam.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
stokesda It should be a personal decision based on your own needs, desires, and values. Is the feeling of satisfaction in completing the loco kit worth the investment in time required to build it? Do you model PRR steam in HO? Are you willing to pay a higher overall price to superdetail the kit to the level of detail of a comparable modern RTR plastic model? For me personally, the answer to all 3 is "no."
It should be a personal decision based on your own needs, desires, and values. Is the feeling of satisfaction in completing the loco kit worth the investment in time required to build it? Do you model PRR steam in HO? Are you willing to pay a higher overall price to superdetail the kit to the level of detail of a comparable modern RTR plastic model? For me personally, the answer to all 3 is "no."
s:
Do I need all that that fine detail that can only be seen in close-up photos, not by eyeball during normal operation? No. (But the newer deluxe Bowser kits did have it).
Do I want pulling power and rugged 50-year reliability? Yes.
But this is a sidetrack. Talk all we want about personal decisions - the personal decision of the misinformed or lazy people, or the people who tried once and gave up, or the people who just never tried, has just made ours for us, and that's annoying...particularly when so much of this is based on hype and misunderstandings. For example, people are pointing to the K-11 and H9, which is a total red herring - they're two of the oldest kits in the line.
(Allow me, though, to point out that despite their "horrible" detail deficiencies, both of these kits did get upgrades, and they are still powerful, reliable, and fun to build. Or were. And unlike certain locos sold for 4x the price, they can actually run on 12v, which has only been the HO standard since, when, before WW2? Fer cryin' out loud.)
I don't know guys,but,there is more going down then the discontinuance of steam locomotive kits.
I suspect many won't understand what I am about to say.
Its a closure of history..When I was 10 years old I built my first Penn-Line kit,a PRR H9 2-8-0,under my dad's experience watchful eye...It was pure joy when the engine moved for the first time.That's the type of joy we can't get by simply opening a box..Doesn't come close to comparing the joy and yes pride..
The Varney "Old Lady" and "Casey Jones" will be remembered by us old modelers as a locomotive that was widely used for many road names...What modeler didn't own Varney's "Lil'Joe"?
So long Penn-Line Kits..So long "Old Lady"...So long "Casey Jones" and farewell "Lil' Joe..
You will be sadly missed by those that experience the joys of building you in our younger days.
Ye did well.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
stokesda Would your purchase of a single kit or two have prevented them from discontinuing production? Maybe, but probably not. But your purchasing decisions shouldn't be based on keeping a company or product line afloat just for the sake of having it around (in theory, at least). It should be a personal decision based on your own needs, desires, and values. Is the feeling of satisfaction in completing the loco kit worth the investment in time required to build it? Do you model PRR steam in HO? Are you willing to pay a higher overall price to superdetail the kit to the level of detail of a comparable modern RTR plastic model? For me personally, the answer to all 3 is "no." I concede that it is a shame to see a product line like this being discontinued (for the time being, at least), but I don't feel guilty because of it.
Also, to prolong this--a question. What do you perceive a market to be? In my view it is the sum total of all inputs into a business. The fact that Bowser came up short on its steam kits came about because not enough inputs through sales came into the equation. I know that and I'll bet you do too. But having said this I find that the market is somewhat distorted towards addressing the needs of 1 or maybe 2 sectors of it and dropping the rest. Therefore MY choice really does not have a bearing in it if there are far far more RTR guys than kit or scratch builders. The market favours the RTR hence the ranting----
Maybe it might be better if kits and the 'superdetailing' parts are done on a smaller scale but the price will be higher. BTW--the prices for the kits could be had far cheaper than RTR in many cases.
Consumers vote with their dollars what they want and it is clear there simply isn't enough demand for a company to make a profit selling loco kits. There are companies that thrive by serving a niche market but apparently there wasn't even a big enough niche to keep Bowser in the loco kit business. There's a reason old fashioned products go by the wayside. People like the new stuff better. When's the last time you saw a slide rule for sale in a store?
So when your RTR gets to the point that you can't afford it you'll just as soon go to basketweaving?
Oh BTW poor analogy -- slide rule? as compared to a kit someone likes to---ohno ohno --BUILD? So RTR should be the only way?
And where is this little one's choice in an 'open market'---hmmm?
This is not a shock. The shock is that Bowser still had them in this day and age for as long as they did. I know one thing: this won't effect the true craftsman in the hobby because after all, the true craftsman make their own steam engines out of raw materials and don't rely on kits. Right, John B.?
As for me, I built a few HO steam loco kits (a Mantua Hudson which was just a Mantua Pacific with a different trailing truck, a Mantua 4-6-0, and an MDC HOn3 2-8-0)...and that was enough for me to know that I don't like building them.
The major problem I had with Bowser steam locos is that I model the New Haven and not the PRR. The New Haven didn't have Belpaire fireboxes, and the only loco the NH had that was even close to a Bowser model was the USRA light 4-8-2's...which just happens to be the same model that Bachmann Spectrum has made for years.
The other problems that I had with their steam kits were:1). No flywheels. Instant stop and skid when it hits any kind of dirty track.2). Electrical pick-up. A Hudson with 22 wheels uses only 7 of them to pick up power, which means that small dead/dirty spots that an SW1 could roll over with ease (such as dead frogs) would kill a large steam loco from Bowser.3). Brass wheels. Real locos don't have shiny brass wheel treads, and at least some Bowser wheels are still brass.The above points equals poor performance. Sure, they could pull the paint of the walls, but that was only when they could pick up the power to move. I don't know how many times I had to bang the table at my old club to get these guys to move on our all-steam nights. BTW, the above problems (other than the brass wheels...even 35-year-old brass has N-S wheels) are also the same problems as with most brass steam, but I'm willing to put up with it because they are prototypically correct for the railroad I model.
Andre,Just a quicky question about that NZ steam loco kit manufacturer... Are there any RTR versions of these locos available from other manufacturers? Sn3 models don't seem to be in the same category as, say, PRR K-4 models. And by that I mean, there's how many K-4 models out there in HO scale compared to how many White Pass & Yukon locos in Sn3? I just think that this company in NZ does well because he has little to no competition.
Oh, and you might want to check out Greenway Products if you're worried about the lack of drivers. They have a selection of steam drivers available. http://greenwayproducts.com/a_drivers.shtml
Autobus Prime,If it didn't "suck anyways" (your words, not mine), then why have the kits been discontinued? It's a predictable reaction because it's ususally true. If something is great, it tends to hang around. If it "sucks", then it goes away.
In 50 years, I'll be 84 years old if I'm still alive. I doubt I'll care all that much if my BLI I-5 (which is mostly brass, BTW) compares that well to a Bowser kit that will be 100 years old by then.
We only want detail because of close up photos in magazines? Huh, that's funny. And here I thought I want detail because I want my models to be more accurate and to get look better when I get closer to them (not worse). Whodathunk it was because of the magazines?You know, if you were really on limited funds and were a real model railroader, you wouldn't be buying kits in the first place. You'd be building them from scratch out of brass stock.I may be a lazy skilless slacker and a do-nothing zero-skill buy-now-pay-later slob, but at least I'm not an arrogant elitist snob who thinks he's better than everyone else just because he can build a steam loco kit.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Maybe the problem isn't the lazy smelly hippies in the RTR crowd, but the fact that "modelers" are abandoning HO scale Class 1 railroading for niche markets. The RTR crowd are taking the time they used to spend doing assembly line work (how many athearn blue box kits can one put together before the magic looses its luster?) and are building railroads.
Take a look in the "Should I go into ON30" thread and check out the climax on page 2. Yes, it started out as an evil RTR kit, but the modeler made it his own, and many have taken this RTR model and the other bachmann locos and done far more extensive projects.
Maybe modeling has evolved into something more artistic than the sweatshop labor of putting side rods and valve gear together.
Paul is rght on.
As I said earlier, its about value, and Bowser kits stopped being a good value years ago.
And, Pastorbob brought up the extension of my other point, not everyone models PRR, not eveyone even models steam (its 1954 in my world, so there is an even dose of both, but not any PRR).
Why would I buy a Bowser USRA Mountain and detail kit for a total of $189.75 when I can get (and have six of) a Bachmann Spectrum version for a street price of about $100.00 each? The quality, detail and performance is similar enough.
Paul is right about electrical pickup issues as well. The few "old" style locos I have now have special modified tenders with all wheel pickup to make up for their solid frames and limited driver pickup.
New is not always better, old is not always better, new should not be imbraced simply because it is new, old should not clung to when it is surpassed, or discarded just because it is old. I restore old houses for a living, and believe me there things that it good that we don't still do, and there are things we only do today because it is cheaper, not better. It takes true objectivity to see through this.
Sheldon
Paul3 wrote:
I may be a lazy skilless slacker and a do-nothing zero-skill buy-now-pay-later slob, but at least I'm not an arrogant elitist snob who thinks he's better than everyone else just because he can build a steam loco kit.
------------------
I wonder where the likes of me fit in with that statement? I built steam and diesel locomotive kits,I have tweak drives,I built car kits galore,detailed locos and done some kitbashing...
Today I perfer RTR..
Oh were do I belong..
A elitish
or
a skilless lazy slob?
Milepost 266.2 Maybe the problem isn't the lazy smelly hippies in the RTR crowd, but the fact that "modelers" are abandoning HO scale Class 1 railroading for niche markets. The RTR crowd are taking the time they used to spend doing assembly line work (how many athearn blue box kits can one put together before the magic looses its luster?) and are building railroads.
First part, I think not. I model a big Class I, east coast, double track, 1954, etc, etc, and so do a lot of my friends. And lots of that RTR stuff is aimed dead at us.
Second part - you bet, more large basement empires full of RTR locos then ever before!
Funny......I was there for a tour on December 2202008 and the guy there told me they were still in production.
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
I think we should refrain from baseless and arbitrary distinctions that are meant to deprecate the way some people enjoy the hobby over the way others enjoy the hobby. By that I mean: what is the difference between a person who builds kits where only assembly is required to someone who builds an engine largley from scratch and only purchases the motor? Each assembles. So what? I don't have the slightest interest in spending my money on a kit that must be assembled. None. Zero. Nada. Zip. Does that make me a lesser mortal than the gods who appoint themselves to that status because assembling kits is what interests them? Hardly. It is a fatuous position that has no foundation. If the hobby was dependent on computers 60 years ago, should it be now? If it had no DCC 60 years ago, should it refrain now? How about improved can motors and drives...heresy if there ever was any! No we should do it all the old way...grow everything, and what we can't grow we'll mine.
We have parsed all these subjects dozens of times: RTR vs. smelt your own metals, build models out of wood vs. styrene, DC vs. DCC, brass vs. plastic, handlaid vs. commercial flextrack, insulfrog vs. electrofrog, Kadee vs. Sergeant, Digitrax vs. NCE, bashing vs. discussing, ad nauseum, ad infinitum....
Those who were in a position to judge, those willing to part with their cash for a steam engine, voted Bowser off the planet. Gnashing your teeth and denigrating the enjoyment and purchasing decisions of others is not the way to participate on the forum.
So, stop it!
-Crandell
rdgk1se3019 Funny......I was there for a tour on December 2202008 and the guy there told me they were still in production.
Things can change quickly in a crappy economy. Maybe they just reviewed sales figures from their distributors and saw things were worse than they thought.
Milepost 266.2 rdgk1se3019 Funny......I was there for a tour on December 2202008 and the guy there told me they were still in production. Things can change quickly in a crappy economy. Maybe they just reviewed sales figures from their distributors and saw things were worse than they thought.
Actually I think those kits been dying on the vine for years..I only know of 2 guys that still builds them.
On all steam night I see the ones that been built for years many still have their original Pittman motors.
Paul3 I may be a lazy skilless slacker and a do-nothing zero-skill buy-now-pay-later slob, but at least I'm not an arrogant elitist snob who thinks he's better than everyone else just because he can build a steam loco kit.
P:
Me, elitist? That's a first. But do you know what? I can build a loco kit. Where I come from, a skill is something to be proud of, not something to be Harrison Bergeroned away. The fact is, however, that whenever these kits have come up, I've done all I could to explain to people that the naysayers were wrong, and that with a little practice, the kits were easy and fun to build. I've been trying to encourage people to try.
Heaven knows, I had my share of mistakes and false starts, and of course I'm not nearly as skilled as some of the other kitbuilders here. I was looking forward to trying a few more, refining my skills. But now...
Now, for the other point about people building railroads. People have been building railroads for a long time, but everything older than 20 years falls into this hobby's memory hole. What sets today's railroad-builders apart is how quickly they get bored. Look at the well-known model railroaders who keep changing their era, scrapping "lifetime" layouts, moving to different scales.
I think, in chasing the everlasting challenge out of the enjoyment, we have chased some of the fun out of model railroading.
Frankly, I have a hard time accepting the argument that it is the fault of RTR buyers that Bowser no longer offers loco kits. If my favorite TV show gets cancelled due to lack of viewership, should I blame the people who chose not to watch my show. They are under no obligation to support my choices any more than I am obliged to support theirs. If what I want is not available because there aren't enough other people who want it, that's life. We don't always get what we want.
jecorbett Frankly, I have a hard time accepting the argument that it is the fault of RTR buyers that Bowser no longer offers loco kits. If my favorite TV show gets cancelled due to lack of viewership, should I blame the people who chose not to watch my show. They are under no obligation to support my choices any more than I am obliged to support theirs. If what I want is not available because there aren't enough other people who want it, that's life. We don't always get what we want.
j:
Let me put it this way:
Live from Lincoln Center has just been replaced by America's Funniest Home Videos.
Sit back and enjoy a nice cool Brawndo...
Autobus Prime,To be accurate, I never called you "elitist", I just said that I wasn't.
And, surprise, suprise, I can build a loco kit, too. I didn't find the experience "fun" nor "easy", however. Oh, the horror!
I do find it kind of funny that you're adovcating these kits as something that one on a limited budget can get into, yet say that one needs a little practice to get to the point where it's "fun and easy". Hmm... Buy hundreds of dollars worth of loco kits and chance scewing them all up and wasting the money invested just for practice, or just buy the loco you want RTR. Well, if your goal is just to build models, then fine, buy the kits. But if your goal is to actually run trains, then that's a horse of a different color.
BTW, if you want to work on your kit building skills, just buy a brass steamer, put it in a toaster oven, and melt all the solder away. Bam! Instant kit! And yes, I know someone who did this accidently (he was trying to bake the paint on).
As for famous modelers changing things around...for pete's sake, some of them have retired, or have family situation that requires moving, etc. Famous modelers are under no obligations to keep their layouts the way you want them to. They also change because they are able to when before there wasn't muich point. 30 years ago, N-scale didn't have the selection it does now, and where was Atlas O back in the day? They had some junky F-units, and that was it. Now look at the other scales and see that there's a lot more available. Why wouldn't a modeler, famous or not, suddenly want to model that other railroad that they've had an interest in (see: Tony Koester)?
BTW, what makes you think that RTR isn't fun for the rest of us? Oh, that's right, we're just lazy skilless slackers and do-nothing zero-skill buy-now-pay-later slobs.
Let me put it this way: Live from Lincoln Center has just been replaced by America's Funniest Home Videos. Sit back and enjoy a nice cool Brawndo...
Bummer!! Mantua hasn't made steam kits since the 70's, yet they still turn up on Ebay quite often. I wonder if this will be the same for bowser units??? We can only hope...
wjstix. . . . . . . . . . BTW didn't the Bowser line used to be made by "Penn Line"?? . . . . . . . . . .
Bowser Locomotives was originally located in Redlands, Calif--there was a DAF Civilian I worked with at Norton Air Force Patch in 1968 who had worked for Bowser in California following his discharge from the Army following Korean War service; Bowser sold out to English Model Railroad Supply in the early-'60s and was relocated to Montoursville, Penn. English subsequently acquired Penn Line and their line of Pennsylvania Railroad models as well as the dies for the Varney line of diecast locomotives. For one reason or another the only former Varney models English has opted to produce are the "Old Lady 2-8-0" and the "Casey Jones Ten-wheeler"--perhaps the dies for Varney's other steam locomotive kits were worn out. Medical problems force the owners of Cary Locomotive Works of Cary, Ill to dispose of their business in the early-'80s and it fell under the ownership of English Model Railroad Supply. Penn Line, Varney, and Cary all operate under the Bowser trademark.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
I built my first Bower (K4 Deluxe kit) just before Christmas this year, and I was shocked at how enjoyable it was. It is a shame to see them go by the wayside.
BTW, it ran like a champ on the first try. Guess I got lucky!
Paul3 Let me put it this way: Live from Lincoln Center has just been replaced by America's Funniest Home Videos. Sit back and enjoy a nice cool Brawndo...Um, nice try but no. It's more like going from a soundless, black & white film at an Opera House to a modern digital movie at a Showcase Cinema De Lux.
Yes, exactly.
Nosferatu to Twilight!
Thank you kindly, that's much better than my comparison. :D
Its odd, Bowser had picked up on the old Varney tooling and produces some of the models like the Old Lady, would have been interesting had they done the 2-8-4 or the 2-8-8-4. They also have the Arbour 2-6-6-6 and the 2-8-4's, they have had the parts in their catalogue but never parted produced them.
Now if someone else has been interested in picking the line out from them and work them up, maybe its more a business move than "oh we're dropping our Steam Loco kits" when they may move to a new manufacturer.
I bought the Big Boy kit out of economics, it was at a train show, I probably will never buy one of the RTR ones, and I have 2 challengers, one kit the other built. I am not interested in pointing fingers at people who want to do the hobby the way they want to to enjoy it, there is so many ways to enjoy this hobby.
Bowser has lasted lo these many years and they originate from the time when modelers really had to do their own building to get a loco, a good loco, and have one economically. I am kinda bummed at the loss of the MDC kits as well you have to drudge ebay and try to win a kit over.
Which made me jollies when Walthers brought back the Carfloat kit, a 40 buck kit was EBAYing over 200 bucks.
Lets watch and see how this plays out.
selector Those who were in a position to judge, those willing to part with their cash for a steam engine, voted Bowser off the planet. Gnashing your teeth and denigrating the enjoyment and purchasing decisions of others is not the way to participate on the forum. So, stop it!
Oh---mmmm----do I detect a hint of stamping the widdle feetmits?
I don't know---I bought some kits over the last few years. I guess that those who bought kits are a very visible minority market wise-----mmmmmm
The problem may be solved by taking kit/scratch into a new market niche by spinning them out of the larger much more RTR dependant field. I've been looking at cnc cutting tables and the like that one can stuff into a small room. There are loads of ways to do things that can make the cost of doing these things on a smaller scale much more cost effective so just maybe---------?
jecorbett Consumers vote with their dollars what they want and it is clear there simply isn't enough demand for a company to make a profit selling loco kits. There are companies that thrive by serving a niche market but apparently there wasn't even a big enough niche to keep Bowser in the loco kit business. There's a reason old fashioned products go by the wayside. People like the new stuff better. When's the last time you saw a slide rule for sale in a store?
In order to vote, you've got to have something to vote for. How do we know there's no profit in making a loco kit? No one's making them the way they do in the rest of the world using etched brass (or nickel silver) and white metal. The technology of steam locomotive kit building has changed drastically elsewhere, but our last locomotive kit supplier is still doing it the way it was done when I was approaching puberty during the second Eisenhower administration. Kits in and of themselves aren't obsolete, it's the technology used to create them.
Bowser didn't really try to expand its niche in the locomotive kit business, either. Other than the relatively recent Pennsy B6, what are they producing they weren't producing 20 years ago? And how hard would it have been to make their 'USRA" engines actually resemble what the USRA designed (like a proper light Pacific boiler or drive wheels that didn't impinge on the firebox in the Mikado, not to mention proper boilers for the 2-10-2 and 4-8-2)? They had all kinds of chassis that could have been used as the starting point for non Pennsy engines. With respect to steam locomotive kits, Bowser essentially pulled a Henry Ford and manufactured Model T's for years on end all the while telling us we could have it in any prototype as long as it was Pennsylvania Railroad (or faux "USRA").
It should have become apparent to Bowser when they dropped the kit prices a few years ago without a rise in kit sales that price wasn't the major issue, but the lack of variety. The 4-8-2/4-8-4 chassis could have been use to create a SSW L-1/SP GS-7/8 that would have appealed to a wide range of modelers because it's only been done in brass and only once. The same chassis could have been used for a NC&STL J-3 4-8-4, both in "Yellow Jacket" and "Stripe Versions". That one has also only been done in brass (and really expensive brass at that). Both the engines mentioned above would be great layout engines for free-lancers as well as the prototype mavens. The boilers and tenders could have been done in cast resin if they didn't want to go with etched brass and whitemetal.
It's just mind boggling that a country of 300 million people can't support a domestic steam locomotive kit builder, while a country of only slightly more than 4 million ( New Zealand ) can. Maybe it's because the NZ market isn't big enough for mass produced models to compete with the kits. Even in this country, however, there could be a niche for a company producing medium and small steam locomotives. We've got Big Boys and Challengers coming out of our keisters. What we don't have are things like this:
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP1779.JPG
or this:
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2921.JPG
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SF1010.JPG
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/BO2037.JPG
How hard would it have been for Bowser to do this using the K4 chassis?
http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/BO5301.JPG
Anybody actually believe MTH, BLI, Athearn or P2K would do one of these? http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/FEC440.JPG
When the FEC defaulted on its equipment trust payments in the mid 1930's, engines like that went to the Cotton Belt, Western Pacific (http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/WP171A.JPG ), Atlanta Birmingham & Coast and a couple of other lines I disremember.
Oh well.
Andre
Autobus Prime Live from Lincoln Center has just been replaced by America's Funniest Home Videos.
They could both be off the air if my money has to pay for it! Classical music is just the "pop" music of a different time, and just like pop music today, only a small percentage is of any quality. I judge the quality of art by its popular support, not the opinion of self appointed elites.
Paul is right on still.
I choose to engage in this hobby from many directions, building, designing, wiring, operation, scenic realism, etc. But I have no qualm with those who take a different tact, and pay no mind to those who dislike the choices I make or the compromises I accept.
I am a lot older than Paul, and have mastered most all of the skills of this hobby, but I agree with him that not all of them are fun - I do this for the fun.
A few examples:
I can and have hand laid track, I don't any more, the new commercial stuff is too good.
I can build electronics, I choose to use old fashioned relays for many things and buy solid state stuff ready to use (or pay someone to mass produce it for me).
I can scratch build structures, I prefer to kit bash structures, its faster and focuses on the creative part not the boring repetitious part.
Art critics be @@@@
You don't have to agree, but for my money, a Bachmann Spectrum loco is better all round, and a much better value than a Bowser kit.
andrechapelonIn order to vote, you've got to have something to vote for. How do we know there's no profit in making a loco kit? No one's making them the way they do in the rest of the world using etched brass (or nickel silver) and white metal. The technology of steam locomotive kit building has changed drastically elsewhere, but our last locomotive kit supplier is still doing it the way it was done when I was approaching puberty during the second Eisenhower administration. Kits in and of themselves aren't obsolete, it's the technology used to create them.
Bingo!
Even as a Pennsy modeler, the Bowser models aren't that great - they have some fairly serious accuracy issues, and the hamburger sized rivets on many of the models don't do them any favors! The runs of kits in some other markets are limited to around 50 examples, so the market can be a LOT smaller to justify producing a kit. The tradeoff is, of course, that kits are usually more expensive, but the result is FAR superior to what can be done with a Bowser kit. Incidentally, the price of DJH kits was mentioned - they are among the most expensive... among the best kits are by Martin Finney, and for a loco+tender+wheels+can motor/gearbox, you're looking at around $280 or so at current exchange rates. That compares with about $230 for a Bowser "deluxe" kit with a Helix Humper can motor set... the Finney kit will be at least the quality of good brass when built right, the Bowser would struggle to match RTR.