One thing I've respectfully suggested to modelers metalizing. You don't have to use the gray base colors I use. I suggested NYC Dk gray and Lt gray so that modelers would have a solid reference for base colors to start from. These two base colors have worked for me so far, however, modelers can and should experiment with variations. As pointed out by some of you on other threads, depending on the prototype manufacturer, stainless steel passenger cars reflect their sheens and hues based on a variety of factors including the type of stainless steel used, the amount of chromium it contains, weathering, age, and even the type/style of corrugation. This is why the mind set of "All my stainless steel cars need to match up exactly" just doesn't fly in the prototype world. But so many of us have gotten spoiled by many of those "picture-perfect" heavily edited shots of classic streamliners.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Very, VERY cool.
Seems I have a new project for all by Budd cars :-(
Van Hobbies H1b, K1a, T1c, D10g, F1a, F2a, G5a. Division Point: H24-66 Hammerhead, Alco covered wagons A-B-B-A, C-Liner A-B-B-A, EMD FP7A A-B-B.
H1b modified to replicate modern day 2816. All with Tsunamis.
Wow! Nice to see this thread again. Charlie thank you for the photos! This is exactly what I've been urging modelers experimenting with metalizing do. My primary concern, though, is that some modelers drive themselves nuts in trying to get an EXACT PERFECT match instead of going for a generalized appearance with variances in sheen and tone due to care/neglect, weathering, etc. Perfect matches rarely exist in the prototype world, except for when the cars come off of the assembly line.
The Walthers Pine series cars, imho, look good but it drives me nuts when I read of modelers lamenting that they can't get their hands on any. Some of these same modelers know how to use airbrushes quite well but are hesitant to try and metalize passenger cars for themselves.
With photos, of course, the lighting on the subject has to be taken into account. Jason Shron of Rapido pointed out that cloudy, overcast days are good time periods to photograph prototype cars to use as reference for metalizing as you did here.
Your Coach Yard unit is a beauty. Notice that the finish has a slight yellowish hue in comparison to the corrugated sections of the Grinstein (even taking into account that the window row appears to be painted gray). The smooth roof section of the Budd observation car coupled to the Grinstein appears slightly more yellow than the Grinstein as there is a small but noticeable amount of sunlight reflecting off of the observation car's roof.
Although in the past I've used gloss black as a base foundation for metalizing.....now, IMHO, to get scale passenger cars "very reasonably close" to exhibiting the hues of prototype stainless steel cars; gloss gray foundation colors work best under the Alclad #107. Dark grays for semi-new or very well maintained cars as in this photo:
Progressively medium to lighter grays for stainless steel finishes with worn, aged surfaces as in this shot:
The lightest gray hues (or even silver) for finishes that would barely reflect the light from a lit candle.
MP 53 on the BNSF Topeka Sub
Hi guys, something I want to share.
Keep your airbrush distance close to your surface (about 1 1/2" to 2" inches). Back in September I metalized six Rivorossi shells for a friend. The kicker? The results were that shells appeared much darker than I wished them to be. I was baffled! I kept trying to analyze what I had done wrong.
Well, after a 2 month hiatus I recently decided to metalize one shell and study every step that I take. This time I was relaxed and took my time. I followed the steps that I posted on this thread and Bingo! Good results!
I realize now that when I metalized those 5 shells, I was feeling pressured because this gentleman needed the shells for a train show within a 2 week period. So, during the painting process I sprayed rather quickly and inadvertently increased my airbrush stroke distance from my usual 2-3 inches to 4-5 inches!
Increasing the airbrush distance to the surface when spraying metalizer will result in a "fog" effect instead of a plating effect. I sure can be absent minded when my brain is in "spaz mode"!
I learned a valuable lesson. When doing work for someone else, don't let them put you on a timetable that may cause you a headache. YOU put THEM on a REASONABLE timetable. Pad extra hours or days in case problems occur. If there is no agreement.......then DON'T DO IT and still part as friends.
I'm now going to redo his shells and then get back to doing mine.
Peace
Guys, An update.
After airbrushing a thin coat of clear to each shell, I compared them to the Rivorossi shells that I did previously. The Metros were still slightly darker, so I went ahead and applied another coat of the Alclad Chrome. Since I was applying it on top of the clear, the chrome came out slightly duller, which in this case was good since the high shine was toned down. As before, I sealed it with one thin coat of Testors Model Master gloss clear to seal it. My next step is to paint the white section on the cabs.
For those of you doing this, it appears that 3 coats of the Alclad II metalizer is the way to go instead of two. Good news is that at 12 to 15 psi airbrush pressure, one bottle of Alclad still covers 2 to 3 HO 85ft passenger car shells.
Smitty.............I'm looking forward to seeing your Santa Fe work
Thank you Gene.
The consistency of the Alclad Metalizer's are thin, so clean up is very easy with lacquer thinner. I flush with either Scale Coat II, Floquil, or automotive lacquer thinners. I stay away from mineral spirits.
Really cool pictures. you did a very good job. That metal looking finish is the bomb-diggity as my kids and grandkids would say. You-da-man!!!!!!!!!!!!
One question, how does the Alcald II clean up afterwards in the air brush.
Thanks....
TrainmanTy,
Thanks. Once I finish the painting and weathering the units, I'd like to run them at a model railroad club I belonged to before (I plan on rejoining). I'm hoping to help spark up more interest in metalizing passenger cars, especially since the process is much easier now than it has been in the past.
Charlie,
Thanks for your info! That's exactly the type of input that we need. I have noticed that in photos of various ACF streamliners, the bodies tend to have a "whitish" hue to them.
I will be doing some more metalizing jobs, hopefully, within the next couple of weeks as my work and family time permits.
Antonio, I was just thinking. Since I live in Topeka where the BNSF stores and maintains their business car fleets. I have had the oportunity in noticing that there are differences in the color of fluting between Budd, PSCM and ACF cars. Budds tend to have a bluish tint while Pullmans have a gray tint and ACF has a white tint. So gloss black would work great for Budds and Dark gray would work great for Pullmans and a medium gray would work great for ACF cars. Pullman cars tend to dull and annodize rather rapidly while Budds and ACFs tend to dull and annodize much slower. HTH
Charlie.
Yeah, does look like a blue tint.
What are you going to do with these beauties once you finish?
Yep, can be a headache. Glad you mentioned this as you reminded me of something. Alclad's rep, Tony Hipp, wrote me before that he's been trying to market the Alclad metalizers to model railroaders. The problem? Too many disagreements among the modelers giving input as to what color should be used on streamliners. Suggestions have included white aluminum and dark aluminum. Photos, film or digital, can indeed be a blessing or a brain twister.
I'm going to continue experimenting, but imho, the key is to stick with the Alclad II Chrome, and alter the base (black, charcoal grey, medium grey, etc.) to get the desired sheen appearance.
AntonioFP45 wrote: I was talking to a friend yesterday about the dilemma of using photos as a reference for paint finishes. Factors such as the surrounding environment, the type and/or brand of photo film, the camera's settings, lighting, quality, etc., can sometimes drive a modeler nuts trying to capture that "close to prototype" appearance.
I was talking to a friend yesterday about the dilemma of using photos as a reference for paint finishes. Factors such as the surrounding environment, the type and/or brand of photo film, the camera's settings, lighting, quality, etc., can sometimes drive a modeler nuts trying to capture that "close to prototype" appearance.
I was talking to the Bowser rep at the Springfield MA show last January, and he made a similar comment. They had done a big run of MEC covered hoppers in a color that was a little darker than Floquil Reefer Gray, while the prototype was a light gray. He said the photo they used as a reference looked the dark gray color. Even the pros can get caught out! I bought a few of them last year, but I am not going to strip and repaint them.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Thanks, SteamFreak.
I had not considered it, but since you mentioned it the 1st coat does remind me of the pewter fiishes I've seen on a number of Franklin Mint collectible miniatures. Applying the 2nd coat is usually where I start to smile
I'll continue to experiment with this product. I've got 3 more Bachmann Amtrak Metros to paint strip and then metalize. I hope to get smoother results with them.
Notice how on the prototype photo (by Kim Piersol) the stainless steel has a "blueish hue". Just my opinion, but even though worn, the stainless steel here is reflecting the blue sky. What do you guys think?
You should write a book, Jerry.
Antonio, those Metros are way cool. I think I can see my reflection. The first coat looks like a graphite or pewter finish... I kinda like it.
I rode in those cars behind a GG1 more than once. I think the upholstery was orange, and I was in a deluxe Metroliner coach once that had deep red or burgundy upholstery. Boy, was that car smooth and quiet.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
AntonioFP45 wrote: Gappleg,Ultra cool! I know you worked hard but found time to have fun too! You remind me of my time at the transit authority shop I worked in for 15 years.Do you remember what color the seats on the PC schemed Metros were before you removed them? I know that the Metro Club/Lounges had orange seats ( I have a photo), but what about the coaches?Yes, I remember that wild Amtrak scheme with the color fades on the front of the cabs. That was pretty creative and a nice variety from the first Amtrak scheme.
Gappleg,
Ultra cool! I know you worked hard but found time to have fun too! You remind me of my time at the transit authority shop I worked in for 15 years.
Do you remember what color the seats on the PC schemed Metros were before you removed them? I know that the Metro Club/Lounges had orange seats ( I have a photo), but what about the coaches?
Yes, I remember that wild Amtrak scheme with the color fades on the front of the cabs. That was pretty creative and a nice variety from the first Amtrak scheme.
Antonio , I'm lucky just to remember yesterday, but funny I do remember the new seats were an orange like color , in all of them. Don't remember the old seats at all, they would have been torn out way up the line, I would have never seen them. The building we did the work in ( Bldg. 12) is about 200 yards long , we had multiple lines coming down for assembly, then when the got to the test dept we had three tracks for testing , 1 was an enviromental chamber where we could run the temp up to 120% or down to 20 below to check out the heating\cooling equipment. We had a mobile mainframe type computer ( boy is that old tech now) it weighed a ton took two of us to push it around. programmed with paper tape input. We used that to test circuitry before actually power up. I now realize I could write a book. By the way I just retired after 38 years at GE.
Jerry SP FOREVER http://photobucket.com/albums/f317/GAPPLEG/
Hey Antonio,
Incredible job on the Metroliners. Between, the E-33s E60CPs, and now your showing off your metros, the urge to do a couple of modules depicting the North East Corridor is growing stronger.
James
AntonioFP45 wrote:I do hope that some of you guys that want to metalize will consider experimenting with different brands of base colors and post your results.
I do hope that some of you guys that want to metalize will consider experimenting with different brands of base colors and post your results.
I went ahead and ordered the black base coat from Alclad...I'll give that a try on something scrap-worthy first. If that doesn't work, I'll try something else and see what happens.
Arjay,Thank you. The gloss clear coat is a big plus for protection. Once the clear is has thoroughly cured, you can mask it off as you would Polyscale, Floquil, or Testors painted surfaces that are cured. To play it safe, I now prefer to wait at least 3 days before I mask off for other colors. Note: I recently received an email from Alclad rep, Mr. Tony Hipp. He recommends waiting 2-3 weeks to allow the metalizer to "toughen up" before applying solvent based clear coats. So far, I've had good results with the acrylic clears, though based on Mr. Hipp's comments via a recent email, I'll now wait at least a week instead of 2 or 3 days before applying the Polly Scale or Modelflex gloss clear. Again, the key to applying clear is to spray it on "Thin". Instead of increasing air pressure, I increase my stroke speed slightly to put it on wet and not get runs. I keep an old Bachmann boxcar shell handy to test my clears on first.
Arjay,
Thank you. The gloss clear coat is a big plus for protection. Once the clear is has thoroughly cured, you can mask it off as you would Polyscale, Floquil, or Testors painted surfaces that are cured. To play it safe, I now prefer to wait at least 3 days before I mask off for other colors.
Note: I recently received an email from Alclad rep, Mr. Tony Hipp. He recommends waiting 2-3 weeks to allow the metalizer to "toughen up" before applying solvent based clear coats. So far, I've had good results with the acrylic clears, though based on Mr. Hipp's comments via a recent email, I'll now wait at least a week instead of 2 or 3 days before applying the Polly Scale or Modelflex gloss clear. Again, the key to applying clear is to spray it on "Thin". Instead of increasing air pressure, I increase my stroke speed slightly to put it on wet and not get runs. I keep an old Bachmann boxcar shell handy to test my clears on first.
Ah, excellent information. Thanks, Antonio.
This is another thread to be printed out.
Robert Beaty
The Laughing Hippie
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The CF-7...a waste of a perfectly good F-unit!
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the
end of your tunnel, Was just a freight train coming
your way. -Metallica, No Leaf Clover
GAPPLEG wrote:I'm not sure what you meant by the prototypes. We re-built the Metros in Erie in the mid-seventies and upgraded almost everything in them. Hence we had to tear them apart and add new components. Like I said we had fun re-testing them before shipping them back out.
Prototypes, You know...........the real things! 1 to 1 scale! You got to see the ones that still had the Penn Central markings on them that Amtrak had not yet repainted. That's why I was hoping that you took some photos then. You participated in some cool history.
DingySP,
Alclad produces their own brand of gloss black that they recommend using.
I have heard some very good things about Tamiya as a good, tough paint that works well under Alclad. I would consider using it, however, I now have 4 bottles of Scale Coat II gloss black so it may be a while before I experiment with other black bases. I do hope that some of you guys that want to metalize will consider experimenting with different brands of base colors and post your results.
Note: I recently received an email from Alclad rep, Mr. Tony Hipp. He recommends waiting 2-3 weeks to allow the metalizer to "toughen up" before applying solvent based clear coats. So far, I've had good results with the acrylic clears, though based on Mr. Hipp's comments via a recent email, I'll now wait at least a week instead of 2 or 3 days before applying the Polly Scale or Modelflex gloss clear. Again, the key to applying clear is to spray it on "Thin" so as to not greatly dull down the metalized appearance. Instead of increasing air pressure, I increase my stroke speed slightly to put it on wet and not get runs. I keep an old Bachmann boxcar shell handy to test my clears on first.
Future Floor Finish works well and leaves a tough finish. It doesn't have to be thinned. However, it can gum up your airbrush quickly if you wait to long between coats. Once a modeler finishes airbrushing with Future, it's important that the airbrush be flushed out and cleaned up right away.
I'm not sure what you meant by the prototypes. We re-built the Metros in Erie in the mid-seventies and upgraded almost everything in them. Hence we had to tear them apart and add new components. Like I said we had fun re-testing them before shipping them back out.
At that time in Erie we were building transit cars , built hundreds of Septa cars for New Jersey.
Antonio,
Wow! Those look fantastic!
After seeing those pics, now I really want to get going on my Santa Fe F-units.
A question, though...how easy/difficult is it to mask Alclad? I'm going to need to do a bit of masking on mine, and I'm slightly worried about how fragile the paint is. Does the clearcoat strengthen it enough to mask?
I can't wait to see those Metroliners finished!
Darth, you're correct. The 1990s set powered car had the cheesy truck motor. I've been planning on using the "Bull Ant" truck motor suggested by Mark Newton. However, one of the other units that I won recently on ebay has a can motor and gear drive. I don't know if it's factory or if the previous owner installed it. The gears are not "splining" properly and there's a lot of slippage. I'm going to ask a friend look at it and see if he thinks it can be spruced up with Mashima and NWSL components. I certainly would like smooth, quiet running.
I want to install DCC sound and would like to take a few liberties with the horn sound. Instead of the Leslie S2-L horn that the prototypes used, I'd like to have the more pleasant sounding Leslie S3K instead. The high pitched S2L is too annoying for my ears!
Here's a couple of shots I was able to take outdoors.
Very nice! It looks like it's actually made from a high grade stainless steel. A lot better than chrome plating. Almost makes me want to go and buy a bunch of Budd stuff so I can do that.
AntonioFP45 wrote:These are "long-out-of-production" Bachmann Amtrak Metroliners that I bought new in a set back in the early 1990s. I won 3 more in ebay within the past 2 years. They were used but in very good shape. To be blunt, the drive in the powered car is junk. But the body shells and underframe detailing look decent when compared to the prototype photos.
I'm guessing you've got the later single powered truck drive in yours. How do you plan on repowering it so it will run as good as it looks?
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chutton01 Hmm, smooth black undercoat - what was the pressure you sprayed the Scalecoat II black at (also, did you thin or not). Just asking, as I brought some scalecoat gloss black & some Alclad, gonna paint a few things, and I'd like to get it right the first time, so let us learn from your mistake. (Don't fee bad, I've spazzed out plenty of times in the paint & finish section of a project - that's why I'd like to learn)
Hmm, smooth black undercoat - what was the pressure you sprayed the Scalecoat II black at (also, did you thin or not).
Just asking, as I brought some scalecoat gloss black & some Alclad, gonna paint a few things, and I'd like to get it right the first time, so let us learn from your mistake.
(Don't fee bad, I've spazzed out plenty of times in the paint & finish section of a project - that's why I'd like to learn)
Hello Chutton,
originally I thinned the Scale Coat at the recommended 1/3 thinner to 2/3 paint. I didn't like the results as two of the shells looked rough. The Scale Coat was stubborn to strip off, so instead I wet sanded the shells with 3M 600 grit. I discovered, as David mentions above, that the 50/50 ration mix works very well. The paint lays on smoothly at 20 to 25 psi with a fine or medium needle/aircap combo. Just before I paint models, I always perform a test on scrap plastic or masking paper. I won't spray the models until I like what I see on the test.