Screw Horizon, MTH, China, All the BS. Opinions about Scratchbuild off.

[Anonymous]

It started April 1st. But Its going to July 31.

I have the official rules posted somewhere on this board. It has everything you need to know. I will try and post them for you.

Suprised to see this one on the top layer again. How much mold did you have to scrape off?

James

[Anonymous]

Count me in
I hope i'm not to late to start

[Anonymous]

Also the model auto people make small display cases that many model railroad items will fit nicely into.

[Anonymous]

If you want to show off your work but don't have a layout to put it on you may want to consider getting a fish aquarium to put it in. It will be enclosed in glass to keep the dust out.

Of course you wouldn't want to buy a 200 gallon tank for a 50' boxcar. [:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNWfan5525
Ummmm..........................I have no layout

Then place in a suitable display shelf in easy view of an appreciative public.

[8D][:D][8D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNWfan5525

QUOTE: Originally posted by Grayhound Challenger

Step 9. when done place on layout.

James

Ummmm..........................I have no layout

acctually i do but it is a M.E.S.S and currently i have no room to put anything on my layout[:(]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Grayhound Challenger

Step 9. when done place on layout.

James

Ummmm..........................I have no layout

[Anonymous]

Here's the link to the Poll - Scratchbuild Competition. http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12364

Good luck to those entering the competition! I am looking forward to seeing photos of all the entries.

[Anonymous]

Hello, Thanks everyone for continuing to provide input.

Snake, I do not care of you start a poll on this topic. I do ask that since I have petitioned some people concerning sponsorship for this thing and have given them the link to this thread, I ask that you place the link of the poll in this thread so that should the people I have asked come to view it, They can find their way to the poll as well.

Once again answering Gough’s Question.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dough

Well this seems like it is going to be a lot of fun. One more question. I know that you haven't thought up every rule yet, but I'm just suggesting things to think about.

So what about decals? Plase oh please don't say that I have to paint up a builder plate in HO...

But then again since I'm probably going to be doing a MW build, I'm going to have many words that just plain don't exist.

Yes, Decals are permitted. My attempt in sponsoring this competition is to get model railroaders to pu***he limits of their skills and try out new things. Not make them endure some cruel and unusual punishment. With the myriad of decals that are available for all sorts of things, I would almost expect them to be used.

The following is the email I have sent to Model Railroader Magazine. In it I have defined what I am hoping to do somewhat further and I hope this will answer a few more questions.

QUOTE:
Dear Model Railroader and Staff,

Over the course of the last several day's, I have taken the initiative upon my self to sponsor and organize a scratch built model contest. This competition is being set up to showcase models build my model railroaders from scratch for use on their layouts. I have placed a thread about this topic on the Model Railroader forum at Trains.com and have generated quite a response.

I have however run into several problems. Since I am doing this on my own initiative and of my own accord, I do not have a budget for anything as simple as prizes for this competition. I am wondering if Model Railroader Magazine would be willing to sponsor this activity. I am not asking for much in the way of financial support. Just some simple items like ribbon's and maybe some books in the way of prizes. Also I think if you are willing that it would be cool to have a construction article of the model that wins Best of Show appear in the pages of model railroader. At the very least I think this type of thing would qualify for mentioning in the "MR News Column"

At the time I write this I am still coming up with the rules regarding the competition. But I do have some initial frame work in place.

First off I have settled on three classes of competition. The first one is First-Time. This class is a showcase for those models that are entered that are first time scratch build projects. This category I created in response to comments from some people who are interested in participating, but have expressed fears that due to their lack of experience in this field will be drowned out and left in the dust by those who regularly win NMRA model contests. The second class will be Teen/Preteen. This category I have chosen because in my responses I have expressed interest in participating from younger members of this hobby some as young as 12 years old. Since I feel we certainly want to encourage these members to more fully participate in this hobby. I feel they deserve their own category. The last category I have decided upon is the open category. This category simply puts everything that does not fall into the other two categories, and is scratch built in this category.

I have developed four rules concerning the nature of competition itself. But these are not all of them I wi***o implement. However I do not have the rest of the clearly thought out much less defined at the point of this writing. But the rules I have established are as follows.

1. Models could not be started before a set date.
2. Models would have to be completed before a set date and articles detailing their construction submitted at yet another set date after that.
3 Modeler my use some basic necessities. Like Doors Windows, Trucks Couplers, Motor, Drive train, and decoders but other than these items, the models would have to be completely scratch built.
4. Models can be of any type and does not of a complicated nature. This is not like an NMRA contest where the winner is chosen on a point system, but rather what the public deems to be good model building.

I also intend the judging to be done by the model railroad public. I am planning on developing a web site that people that are interesting in judging the competition can go to, and vote for First, Second, and Third place in each class as well as best of show overall.

Like I said, I have started a thread on this topic at Model Railroader Forum and if you would like to take a look and get a feel for the responses, here is the link.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=12255

Thanks for taking the time to read this and respond in kind.

Sincerely,

James R. Mitich.

[Dough]

Well this seems like it is going to be a lot of fun. One more question. I know that you haven't thought up every rule yet, but I'm just suggesting things to think about.

So what about decals? Plase oh please don't say that I have to paint up a builder plate in HO...

But then again since I'm probably going to be doing a MW build, I'm going to have many words that just plain don't exist.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

While your at it... SCREW BRACES
My teeth are killing me as we speak. I HATE them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![soapbox][V][:(][}:)][B)][V][:X][xx(][banghead][censored][|(][:-,][sigh][#offtopic][tdn][soapbox]

I wi***hey where never invented!

I hear ya, dougal. I've had mine for over a year now! I haven't had popcorn in AGES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yeah, maybe, just maybe, I'll try building something.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by James
Oh while I am still responding to you Mr. (or Ms or Mrs. perhaps?) Snake, I would like to thank you for going over how to scale items from photographs. You covered the topic with more eloquence than I would know how to broach the subject.

Thanks James for the feedback! As you can see by my signature, and the last time I looked, I am a Mr. Please call me Dave or Snake without the Mr. part. [:D]

BTW: Snake is the term used for a railroad switchman, and as I "switch" my mind quite often about my layout and what to do with it, I thought this handle is appropriate

With your permission I would like to start a poll asking how many people would like to join in on your contest. I if you would like to contact me off forum my contact info is in my profile.

[Anonymous]

Hello,

Again I would like to thank everyone for their input. There are some more people who I would like to respond to and make some comments as well.

In regards to Snake.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Snake

A "scratchbuild off" sounds like fun and I would love to participate. Hopefully this can become something we do again and again.

Some of us are retired and have more time than others to dedicate to modeling. I have read where some folks only have a couple-three hours a week for their hobby. I recommend keeping this in mind when setting start/end dates. The categories and the entry levels sound good. I guess the entries would have to be based on integrity. I.e. an experienced modeler would have to be honest enough to not enter his/her model as a "beginner".

Enough "notice in advance" time should be allowed so that we have time to do research, get photos, drawings, etc. prior to starting the assembly/building process, again integrity would apply for the date you "started" building the model.

Will you be considering those projects that are completely freelanced versus those that are a replica of a prototype?

Looking forward to the "scratchbuild off" and reading all the "help" and "how to" questions that will be propagated by this competion. I am sure this will be a GREAT learning experience for us all.

Have you considered asking MR if they would/could help with certificates/ribbons for the winners. It would be nice for the winners to have something to display on their layout for their efforts. Maybe a special note under their number of stars here on the forum.

Keep us up to date on your decisions.

I hope to this is something I can host again and again. This is something that I have chosen to do out of my own pocket and on my own time so the ability to do so will depend greatly on the amount of participation I get, and the amount of assistance I can get from places willing help out.

You have a point on the integrity thing. It is something that I never even thought about. I guess the only thing I can do is let them enter and hope it doesn’t get abused.

As far as the notice in advance goes, I do not think that will be a problem. That is why I have started a discussion on this now so that people can start thinking about if they want to enter or not and if they do what they want to build. I figure at the rate I am going It will take me about three weeks to get my ducks in a row and then I will allow a period of time before the start of construction that modelers can use for research and acquiring of materials.

I am going to consider a prototype for this event to be a non-issue. If you want to make a painstaking recreation of RGS #4 in On3 be my guest. I feel it should share an equal footing with a model that someone built of Captain Proton’s Rocket Loco. In this contest I am trying to stir the imaginations of modelers and get them to pu***he envelope of their skills. I do not want them to be hindered by whether or not their model will lose ground because it is prototype or not.

As for the help and how to question. I am looking forward to them to. As has already occurred on this thread, A person that has not built anything from scratch before was asking for something he could practice on. So I gave him a basic tool shed he could cut his teeth on. I am willing to render assistance and information to all those who ask for it.

Yes I have considered asking MR and other model railroad magazines for help. As I am writing this I am in the process of writing a formal email to the staffs of these magazines and hopefully I will be able to gain their support.

I am checking in on this thread daily and will keep everyone apprised as to what is going on.

Oh while I am still responding to you Mr. (or Ms or Mrs. perhaps?) Snake, I would like to thank you for going over how to scale items from photographs. You covered the topic with more eloquence than I would know how to broach the subject.

In response to Mr. Tpaulsen

QUOTE: Originally posted by tpaulsen

I qualify as what most of you would call an old fart and I think the concept of going back to scratch building is simply marvelous. I hope you guys get your contest up and going. More power to you. And, yes, welcome to the 50's. Model railroading was fun then too.

Tom

Well I definitely think I qualify as one of those snout nose punk kids of Generation Y. (I am 21 years old) But I however developed my modeling skills under the wings of quite a number of what my generation refers to as “Old School” modelers such as your self. I am quite proud of that fact.

And once again, I respond to Dough

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dough

Thanks Greyhound. I'm going to give the shed a shot next weekend. I am in college as well and modeling constanly gets pushed down as a priority. I usually have big surges and then slow periods. My old hobby shop is now much more of a drive as well. But I'll give it a shot none the less and also pratice with some kitbashing before moving on.

There is also a Model Rail show coming soon and I hope to pic up a few ideas as well as supplies there. I'm just trying to figure out what I need ahead of time.

No Problem. I am in the last year of college my self so I understand fully what you mean. My situation is complicated by the fact that I live in the State of Wyoming and there is only one hobby store in the whole state meaning I am essentially dependent on mail order and E-bay to get things I want. As such it is much easier for me to walk down to the lumber yard and brows the miniature lumber section. And brows the crafts store for scratch building supplies when it comes to a lot of my model building.


Lastly I would like to make a general response to some comments I have received via E-mail and over AIM.

As I mentioned earlier, This contest is for everybody. If you have never scratch built anything before in your life. Now is your chance to seize the opportunity to do so. Your model does not have to be an elaborate recreation of some Rio Grande Southern Prototype painstaking recreated in miniature board for board, rivet for rivet. It just has to be a model that once stared as a sheet of nothing fancy, and through model building skill and imagination made something cool from it.

Also an elaborate workbench is not necessary. You can scratch build something with only a hobby knife, a straight edge, and some Elmer’s glue. If any of you have built some of the basic kits this hobby offers, you already have all the tools you need to participate in this competition.

Also construction materials can be anything you can cut glue and arrange into what you want. It can be styrene or Basswood, or just simply Foam core and cardboard. I have made things from all 4, all with good results. If you have to cut up cereal boxes for construction materials, by all means do it.

Again, thanks everyone for their responses and input. I will keep everyone apprised.

Sincerely,

James.

[Dough]

Thanks Greyhound. I'm going to give the shed a shot next weekend. I am in college as well and modeling constanly gets pushed down as a priority. I usually have big surges and then slow periods. My old hobby shop is now much more of a drive as well. But I'll give it a shot none the less and also pratice with some kitbashing before moving on.

There is also a Model Rail show coming soon and I hope to pic up a few ideas as well as supplies there. I'm just trying to figure out what I need ahead of time.

[slotracer]

For a time in the mid to late eighties, I got into S scale (I got out as I gre tired of waiting 2 years after due date on locos I had deposts on and basic track and detail components became hard to come by).

To me, the over proliferation of variety and availability was a downside of the hobby. I was buying more and more stuff and had less and less time into each piece, I began to enjoy and appreciate it less.

When I did S Scale for a number of years, it forced me to choose a prototype, a limited time and regional frame, an operational theme etc and stick to it. Instead of getting kits for every loco and caboose I could conceivable run, and build a large pike that could be used to hsot several of my favorite roads I had to choose one and do the research and planning to become really in touch with and involved with the specific prototype I loved and devoted myself to. I spent the time to build say a single freight car or caboose in very high quality. I appreciated every piece I had, every bit of track I laid, every structure becase of the time and dedication it took to achieve it. I recall a single NYC wood reefer I built from Styrene I was able to sell for over a hundred bucks, so the work was appreciated by others as well.

Modeling like that was far more rewarding than a loco roster of over a hundred engines, hundreds of freight cars and dozens of projests started but not finished before I had a new whim of interest and more new project kick offs.

If I ever do return to the hobby, I likely would go with S or O and do almost everything from scratch, sure I'd have far less track, but that is less to maintain, skip most of the outragously priced brass, and use plastic as a fill in to the roster only. Experiencing the hobby like that is very rewarding, just make sure you have the time !

[Anonymous]

I qualify as what most of you would call an old fart and I think the concept of going back to scratch building is simply marvelous. I hope you guys get your contest up and going. More power to you. And, yes, welcome to the 50's. Model railroading was fun then too.

Tom

[Anonymous]

Randy,

I agree with you on scaling from a photo, it is easy if you know the true size of at least one object in the photo. For structures I use doorways and windows as they are pretty much standard sized. And like you, I use wheel diameter and car length as good indicators.

---

For those who have not scratch built but would like to try your hand at it, just keep in mind the scale you're doing.

For instance HO is 1:87 meaning that if the prototype is 87 feet long then the model would be one foot long. A 50' boxcar would be 0.5747126 feet or 6.8965512 inches [:D] (about 6-7/8") in length. Take 1 divided by 87 which gives you one scale foot. (0.0114942). Then multiple that by the length of the boxcar, 50', which gives you 0.5747126 scale feet. To get inches from feet multiply the scale feet by 12. In this instance 0.5747126 times 12 equals 6.8965512. The decimal equates close to 7/8".

Here's a great site for conversions. http://www.onlineconversion.com/

Now lets convert a photo. You know that a 50' boxcar model is 6-7/8". When you measure the boxcar in the photo it is only, for simplicity, 3-7/16" then you know that the boxcar in the photo is half the size of the model you want to build. Therefore all measurements from the photo need to be doubled (multiplied by 2). If the photo measurement, lets say, is 2.29884 (close to 2-19/64) then the boxcar in the photo is only 1/3 the size and all measurements must be multiplied by 3 to get the correct size for your model.

I use a "cheap" digital caliper (mine cost less than $20) to measure photos. This gives you decimal numbers for greater accuracy. Then convert to fractions only if needed.

I hope this has been a help. It may sound difficult at first but after you convert a couple measurements you'll see how easy it is.

Scratch build - you'll enjoy it!

[Anonymous]

On the subject of plans: Every time I visit the LHS I go through the "dead pile" of old train magazines. Many of them, particularly the older ones prior to the 1980s, have plans in various scales. The magazines are 50 cents a copy. I've gotten several good ideas for projects from them, one I am considering for the contest.

Also there are many collections of plans and building ideas published. A good source of them is at local train swap meets. For the younger people you might ask around to see who has a collection of old train magazines which you could leaf through and perhaps copy a plan or two.

Someone asked about working out dimensions from a photo. I'ts possible to do so If one or more dimension is known: truck length, overall length, or perhaps wheel diameter. Any set of dimensions will be pretty approximate. If you are not trying to build a prototype but a freelance car you should be OK. The old engineering adage applies here: "If it looks right it is right." Sometimes you simply have to work with what is available.

Randy

[Anonymous]

A "scratchbuild off" sounds like fun and I would love to participate. Hopefully this can become something we do again and again.

Some of us are retired and have more time than others to dedicate to modeling. I have read where some folks only have a couple-three hours a week for their hobby. I recommend keeping this in mind when setting start/end dates. The categories and the entry levels sound good. I guess the entries would have to be based on integrity. I.e. an experienced modeler would have to be honest enough to not enter his/her model as a "beginner".

Enough "notice in advance" time should be allowed so that we have time to do research, get photos, drawings, etc. prior to starting the assembly/building process, again integrity would apply for the date you "started" building the model.

Will you be considering those projects that are completely freelanced versus those that are a replica of a prototype?


This is obviously NOT a prototype. [:D]
photo found on the internet, modeler unknown.

Looking forward to the "scratchbuild off" and reading all the "help" and "how to" questions that will be propagated by this competion. I am sure this will be a GREAT learning experience for us all.

Have you considered asking MR if they would/could help with certificates/ribbons for the winners. It would be nice for the winners to have something to display on their layout for their efforts. Maybe a special note under their number of stars here on the forum.

Keep us up to date on your decisions.

[Anonymous]

While your at it... SCREW BRACES
My teeth are killing me as we speak. I HATE them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![soapbox][V][:(][}:)][B)][V][:X][xx(][banghead][censored][|(][:-,][sigh][#offtopic][tdn][soapbox]

I wi***hey where never invented!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

I agree. The hobby isn't fun with all of this garbage going on. To make matters worse, my last four railfanning trips were disasters, it's starting to get very annoying.

I imagine dougal thought his last trips were diasters was because all he saw was NS black.[:D][:D][;)][:p] (just kidding) What really happened, dougal?

Actually I lensed green and yellow and Blue and Yellow (two shortlines around here) and then the dreaded Dash 9s. The first shortline had a rare sixteen cylinder SD45 and an SW1500. The second had U23Bs.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Dougal,

Please tell up what happened on your railfanning trips. Four bad trips?! That's extreme!

If you don't want to reply on this thread than perhaps you could post a new thread/poll on "railfanning trip experiences - ". Poll Categories maybe something like: Amtrak, Historical Society, Museum, Club etc. or the question wouild be Would recommend to friends , not recommend to friends, etc,. You get the picture!

God Bless!

Mostly film:

One: all of the shot-- overexposed.
Two: opposite of #1
Three: Fuzzy garbage on my shots!!!!
Four: Missed two UP engines last weekend. We missed one courtesy of the traffic light. The second we missed by fifteen second and it had a UP. UGH!!! [:(!] We also missed the other two trains because the camera wouldn't take a picture. I saw on a Yahoo group that 2 UP units are on a local that arrives here tonight. We'll try and tell you what happened. The only shots I got were two shots of static trains. If the camera at least doesn't expose these, the railfan trip will be scored "F" and the camera is in a landfill (Another one is coming in for my brother's birthday, lucky him).

[chutton01]

OK, first timers, step 1: Every home on your layout gets a detached one-door wood sided garage [:)] (yes, perhaps the easiest of building projects...).

Heck, even with RTR I find scratchbuilding necessary (Example: The Classic Metal Works Chevelles, Galaxies, and Caprices need side mirrors)

[Anonymous]

Thank you all for your input. I like the idea about having a Teen/first timer class as it then gives a more level playing field for those whom this would be their first attempt at scratch building and for those who are old hands at it.

There are some peoples questions I would like to answer so please bear with me.

In regards to rdal1964

QUOTE: Originally posted by rda1964


James:

I'm all for a bit of scratchbuilding show and tell. I suggest an "all in" date of July 4th, for symbolic reasons as well as my tendency to sloth.

Also, not to sound like a broken record on the topic: I think it best to have two catagories, one for teens and first time scratchers, another "open" to all comers. Of course I'd not INSIST teens submit in the teens catagory. My aim here is to not overwhelm anyone first time out.

Count me in.

Randy

At this time I am not able to set a due date. I have only thought this up yesterday. I still need time to get a receiving and processing system set up, as well as contact some people and see if they are willing to donate prizes.

As for your tendency to be a sloth, I know the feeling. Being in college I have not had time to wrap up a simple painting project. Its been sitting on my worktable for over a year now.

As for Dough

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dough

Thanks Greyhound. One thing about the research though. Are there any books or websites that would offer at least rough demensions of cars? I was sitting here trying to measure a picture and then divide the length out to get its scale...Is their a better way?[;)]

I even went to Trinitiy's website, and they have a few more demensions than the side of the car gives. That is a pretty cool site by the way. I'm not thinking that anybody would be too happy if I showed up in a railyard with tape measure in hand...

The magazine Railroad Model Craftsman usually has at least one set of plans in every issue. Railroad Model Craftsman also has a column called Scratch Builders Corner that many first timers might find useful. If people are interested I can go through and correlate all the plans that I have and will be willing to scan and email copies to anyone interested. However please give a while I have magazines going back to the 70s to sort through if I do.

Was my little shed project helpful?

In regards to dknelson

QUOTE: Originally posted by dknelson

Here is an idea for a contest and it is borrowed from something my cub scout troup did, oh around 1960 or so. We were each given an odd assortment of stuff in a bag and told to "do something" with it. Maybe given each contestant the identical bag of bits of balsa and some brick paper and file cards and other odd stuff and see who has the most imagination to make something of it. I predict that the modeler with the best collection of articles by E.L. Moore and a wood burning tool might win this one!

Dave Nelson

Sounds like an idea I may have to follow up on. But not this first time. Maybe if I decide to do another one.

In regards to Morpar.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Morpar

I really like the idea too. I have been working on casting Virginian style battleship gondolas, and have thought of making a mold for the modern style Thrall cars. I would scratch the master just to avoid copyright hassles, but where would the castings fall? Would they then be scratchbuilt, or kits? Are we looking also at quantity versus quality? Still some good questions to work out, but I am all for it! I think I'll hold off on the Thrall cars, just in case...

That is a very good question. I know that resin casting of multiple same components is still considered scratch built by the NMRA. You pose a very interesting qeustion. I will have to think on this. If any of you other people have a feeling about this please speak up. My initial reaction would be to say that the scratch built master would qualify. But the resin copies could be sold as a kit and thus would not. But I do not know. I think I will field opinions from prospective participants on this.

I think I have stated this before and thus may be repeating my self. I thought all this up over lunch yesterday so I am kind of making this up as I go along and writing it down so I do not contradict my self. You ask a good question and it is difficult to answer.


Thank you all for all that have commented. I am still endeavoring to set things up so feel free to comment and share ideas.

Thank you.

Your fellow model railroader

James.

[dehusman]

Most of the major model railroading magazines publish drawings of cars and buildings. In addition if you search e-Bay for "railroad books" or "Train-shed Cyclopedia" you can find books with nothing but prototype plans and pictures.

Dave H.

[Morpar]

I really like the idea too. I have been working on casting Virginian style battleship gondolas, and have thought of making a mold for the modern style Thrall cars. I would scratch the master just to avoid copyright hassles, but where would the castings fall? Would they then be scratchbuilt, or kits? Are we looking also at quantity versus quality? Still some good questions to work out, but I am all for it! I think I'll hold off on the Thrall cars, just in case...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

I agree. The hobby isn't fun with all of this garbage going on. To make matters worse, my last four railfanning trips were disasters, it's starting to get very annoying.

I imagine dougal thought his last trips were diasters was because all he saw was NS black.[:D][:D][;)][:p] (just kidding) What really happened, dougal?

[dknelson]

Here is an idea for a contest and it is borrowed from something my cub scout troup did, oh around 1960 or so. We were each given an odd assortment of stuff in a bag and told to "do something" with it. Maybe given each contestant the identical bag of bits of balsa and some brick paper and file cards and other odd stuff and see who has the most imagination to make something of it. I predict that the modeler with the best collection of articles by E.L. Moore and a wood burning tool might win this one!
Dave Nelson

[Dough]

Thanks Greyhound. One thing about the research though. Are there any books or websites that would offer at least rough demensions of cars? I was sitting here trying to measure a picture and then divide the length out to get its scale...Is their a better way?[;)]

I even went to Trinitiy's website, and they have a few more demensions than the side of the car gives. That is a pretty cool site by the way. I'm not thinking that anybody would be too happy if I showed up in a railyard with tape measure in hand...