Are modern city buildings needed in the hobby?

[chutton01]

Well, people have already mentioned we have some very nice modern industries, and in regards to generic ones they are right - e.g.Pikestuff for Corrugated walls, Great West for Concrete walls (witness the very large modern industry article in the Nov 2004 MR), the Nu-line modern warehouse kits (now those are monsters right out of the box) and even Herpa Warehouse kits (on sale now at Walthers).
However, traveling the industrial parks of North Jersey, Long Island, and the Philly area, a lot of modern distributors/warehouse/manufacturers (industrial concerns) often have very nicely designed stone/brick/stucco clad buildings, with copious amounts of windows, imposing front entrances, and manicured landscaping. These buildings are usually a warehouse/manufacuring section of 1 story (which is the height of 2 normal stories to give a very generous inside ceiling clearence) and one or two stories of office space in front. I guess the problem here is that these buildings tend to be unique for each office campus/industrial park (albiet the same design is often used over and over within each campus), so although it is possible to create a generic one (same as a generic modern gas station/food-mart, generic strip-store mall, generic diner), a specific one may be kinda limiting (much like a Sears Tower or... an Independance Hall (I remember when I was a kid during the Bicentennial, those kits were everywhere). OK, perhaps the industrial facility may NOT be as well known as those two other buildings...
Also, alongside the tracks passing through suburban areas, you gotta have pastel faux-victorian-style row Townhouses and small brown-brick 3-story professional office buildings adjacent (often on the former sites of coal dealers, tank farms, small lumberyards, and multi-story brick mills which closed decades ago) - these newcomers come complete with lots of hedges and small, stunted-growth trees.
BTW, those long-abandoned multi-story brick mills mentioned above - if you have any left standing on your modern layout, convert them to Self-Storage Centres or Health Clubs for complete accuracy...

[Anonymous]

Yes, modern buildings are needed. But for me, My HO scale Eastern Railroad is in the 50's and there are alot of city buildings on the market for me. I just need a good interlocking tower.

[eastcoast]

I am a modern modeler. Most of my structures had to be
kitbashed to bring them up to date. My city is restricted to
10 stories or less ( headspace ) and I am doing just fine.
As you look at some other than metro areas, you will find
that not all cities have to look like New York or Chicago.
I am trying to replicate a portion of Tampa, FL that is just
off of downtown. Beautiful metro by the bay. A modern city
would not neccessarily be reflected in the buildings, but also
to jazz it up, cars and trucks, people of today's society are crucial
in conveying modernism. If you want modern, vehicles ARE on the
market at most every hobby shop. I am still young by modelling
standards, therefore, I model post 1970 and into the future as that
is when my city will be a small metro. Good luck..

[bn7026]

They are an interesting change to the country scenery done by a lot of modellers.

Be prepared to spend a lot more time on the scene than you would for a country scene. I like modelling city areas but the next layout will have only one city scene out of the 4 scenes I plan to have. Scatchbuilding is a necessity for city modellers and a lot of new buildings are more than just glass blocks - the architectural styles are changing.

Typically city highrises are commonly made as models by architectural modelmakers mainly for developers. Once the development is completed these models become surplus to requirements and if you know the right person a new home can be found on a HO or N scale layout - I remember one being used on a layout in Melbourne Australia.

Tim

[RedLeader]

QUOTE: those interested: does anybody know any architects? modelbuilding is part of their training, and they all have one or many setting around gathering dust. 1/8th inch and 1/4th inch scale models are common. all are modern era.

Once at the university I scratch built a 80 stories skycraper using pre-molded styrene beams (i.e. plastruct) and translucid plastic sheets. The buidling looked like it was designed by Sir Norman Foster. Unless you're trying to model the Chicago Tribune, Petronas or the Christler Tower, modern skycrapers are easy, specially the ones designed by SOM or Mies Van der Rohe (The Sears Tower should be a night project). If you've seen the layout at CSI, you've noticed that the building replicas are not in scale hight, If they were, they'll dwarf the trains and scenery to such a level that they'll have to model the trains z scale to fit the Sears Tower in HO.

Truth is, that these kind of models would be extramely expensive to porduce. There are a lot of modern era industries at the market right now. Walthers is making a good job in this. PikeStuff products are perfect for modern factories. Many of todays manufacturing plants are plain "shoe boxes" of PVC panels shaped in various poligons, usually rectangular. Again, unless your planning to model a refinery, cement plant or any chemical processing, I recomend PikeStuff's modules, I used them in my office to make a BOPP line muck-up we designed, the rest just add any silos and stuff, that are easy to find in the market.

[Anonymous]

Model railroader and "Modeling City Scenery" have articles in it about making buildings out of a plexiglass (or is it acyrilic?) for the walls and then matboard strip and vinyl tape for the non window (technical term) parts of the walls. While the article was focusessing on 30 and 40 foot buildings, I'm sure the method would work for the 5 to 10 story modern concrete and glass buildings that are in the smaller down town areas.

[Anonymous]

I'd say probably not. The majority of modelers, even now, still model eras
between 1900 and 1960, with the majority in the 1940s-1950s period. As such, what is REALLY needed are industrial downtown city architecture buildings. I can't find ANYTHING like this for N-Scale., which is what I am using.

Other posters already pointed out the City Classics buildings that Bachmann did in HO, that flopped because they were too big and too expensive. Well, in N-Scale, I bet they would have been much more popular.

Another thing. What we really need are not "skyscrapers". The overwhelming majority of buildings in a city are not 80-story monsters. And that's even more true in the 1940s and 1950s. What we need are the mid-sized buildings, 8-15 stories. There are plenty of nice kits in the 2-5 story range.

[Anonymous]

jetrock: thanks for the shoebox idea. i know just where to apply it.

those interested: does anybody know any architects? modelbuilding is part of their training, and they all have one or many setting around gathering dust. 1/8th inch and 1/4th inch scale models are common. all are modern era.

-rick

[darth9x9]

More modern fast food restaurants and gas stations are needed but no one (manufacturer) wants to pay for the use of a trademark. Look at the UP fiasco. [PLEASE, NO FLAMERS!] The profit on a plastic structure isn't that much (with the exception of the Bachmann buildings as the $90 buildings sold for $30 when they were dumped on the market...but I digress). Adding the trademark fees makes producing such a model prohibitive.

[on30francisco]

Yes, I'd like to see more modern buildings available. Although my narrow gauge On30 and HO layout depicts the early part of the 20th centuty, modelers who model the present era need them.

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

Why do some folks get so testy whenever anyone wants to model something past the transition era? There ARE new buildings in downtown areas. And not all of them look like a danged shoebox painted beige. The space taken would not be excessive either. A fairly large downtown building would be 1/4 city block long, 1/8 city block wide, and 20 stories high. That could be modeled in ‘N’ by a building 7.5” long x 3.75” wide x 15” tall. I don’t know about you, but I have that much space on my layout.

As I think was mentioned above, one or two companies have tried selling tall buildings and they tanked in the marketplace--there just isn't that much demand. I'm not that familiar with what is available in N scale, but there's a lot more HO stuff...and maybe that's where we've got a difference of opinion. I see quite a few modern structures, or buildings that would fit right in on a modern layout, whenever I go to the hobby shop. Folks have mentioned White Castle, 7-11 and other fast-food restaurants available--I've seen quite a few modern gas station kits--and for those interested in things that interact with the trains, there are quite a few nice modern industrial buildings. Heck, recently I've noticed a trend of kits that appear to be modeled after the modern trend of renovating and modernizing old city buildings--which would make them look out of place on a transition or earlier layout but fit perfectly onto a modern layout!

QUOTE:
Please stop ranting about how we should build our own. The fact is you can buy kits or built-ups from other eras – why shouldn’t you be able to do it with the modern era if that is what you want?

To which I say, check your catalogs--there are modern buildings out there to be bought. As someone who models the supposedly thoroughly-represented transition era but still has to scratchbuild and kitba***o get exactly the buildings (and rolling stock, and motive power) I want, I have little sympathy.

Besides, there is the simple fact that old buildings can be fit quite well into a modern layout, but modern buildings don't fit into period layouts--so while you can use "my" kind of buildings, I can't use yours!

Consider it a trade-off of sorts. You have no problem finding motive power and rolling stock but can't find many buildings. I can find buildings but nobody makes motive power appropriate for the railroad I model except $500 a pop brass...unpainted!!

[Anonymous]

One other point to remember is most layouts focus on the railroad (you're all saying... duh!) so therefore tend to be linear. If your layout is only 3 feet wide (about the maximum for good reach), with the tracks roughly in the middle, that space is somewhat less than 300 feet across - less than 150 feet across.

How many sky-scrapers or suburban malls (or other larger buildings) can fit entirely within 150 feet of a rail line? Maybe that is why the largest buildings tend to be restricted to either flats or the backdrop themselves. You'd have to have a lot of room for even one of these big modern buildings... If in fact any of them are that close to the tracks...

On the other hand, I can see demand for models of new smaller buildings, like gas stations, or small manufacturers, or low-rise office buildings. Many of these might be easy enough to scratch build.

One of the buildings near my office put up an addition in about 2 weeks last summer. It, like the rest of the building is simply covered with corregated siding, with windows on the first floor only. Wouldn't be too hard to build.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

I see a need for more modern buildings. Very few seem to be available. Not neccessarily skyscrapers, but modern gas stations/convenience stories, banks, restaurants, super markets, strip centers, etc. Things that could be used in cities, suburbs or smaller towns.

[Roadtrp]

Why do some folks get so testy whenever anyone wants to model something past the transition era? There ARE new buildings in downtown areas. And not all of them look like a danged shoebox painted beige. The space taken would not be excessive either. A fairly large downtown building would be 1/4 city block long, 1/8 city block wide, and 20 stories high. That could be modeled in ‘N’ by a building 7.5” long x 3.75” wide x 15” tall. I don’t know about you, but I have that much space on my layout.

Please stop ranting about how we should build our own. The fact is you can buy kits or built-ups from other eras – why shouldn’t you be able to do it with the modern era if that is what you want?

[Jetrock]

Look.

Just spray a cardboard shoebox beige and slap a couple plastic doors on the front. Go take a picture of a sign for whatever building you want to model, print it out and slap the sign on the front. Lovely model, will take you about three hours including a drive to your local big-box retailer and half an hour waiting for the beige paint on your cardboard box to dry.

IF THERE IS NO KIT, BUIILD IT!! I can see why you'd complain if these were buildings with a ton of ornate curlicues and strange elaborate Victorian detailing, but what' you're talking about are just big rectangular brick boxes with about as much elaborate detail as the average...cardboard box.

Plus, just to put things in more perspective, go try measuring the size of a big-box retailer (Target or Wal-Mart or what have you)while you're out there taking photos, and you'll find, quite quickly, that one of them scaled down accurately to HO scale will take up your entire 4x8 sheet of plywood, NOT COUNTING the parking lot!

There is a very good reason why there aren't very many large buildings modeled for model railroads--most of them would be too darned big to fit on the layout! Not to mention the fact that they'd cost so much that there would be as many threads on this forum about their exorbitant cost as there are about articulated Big Boys.

There are millions of buildings in the modern world (not to mention the past) that have never been modeled--this is not a crime against nature, it's just a call for you to get off your tuchus and go scratchbuild something!

bluepuma: Try checking out the catalogs of Japanese model railroad manufacturers for Asian-looking buildings for use in making a Chinatown.

[Anonymous]

We definately need modern buildings in the hobby. we have modern diesels and rolling stock but not many buildings of modern era. I prefer the modern era on my layout, nothing against the steam though.

[Anonymous]

Take a look at the downtown of most towns or cities and you are likely to see a lot of older buildings with an updated facade and signage. The number of recent buildings is usually small by comparison. If you are modeling in the modern era, you can update your older Design Preservation or Pikestuff buildings with scratchbuilt fronts made out of styrene.

What's missing are truly modern signs from the last ten or twenty years--places like Starbucks, for example You could make them yourself, but it would be nice for someone like BlairLine to step in and fill the void.

John

[bluepuma]

Yep. I'd like to have some 3-5 story buildings in N.. I'm going to do Little Tokyo with Tomix 9 story and the other. Why are there no Chinese stylized resturants with the roofs that every Chinatown and many independed places had in the 50's.

Concor lists a Burger King and 7/11 store in their catalog, but they are too late for my 55-62 time frame.

I'd like to see some supermarkets bigger than a Jr. Market or 7/11. Those lasted from 55-present with only facelifts, signage. Albertson's Ralph's Lucky's.

[JPowell]

I can't remember off the top of my head as to who makes them, but Walther's has both a modern BK and a 70's/80's KFC on their website.

[Jetrock]

yes, in small towns. As mentioned above, a main reason why you don't really see things like scale McDonald's is due to the fact that McDonald's would want licensing fees, not because no McDonald's are located near railroad tracks. There are plenty of models of greasy spoons and burger joints out there.

I'd note that there is a kit for White Castle, a Midwestern chain--but, quite frankly, a lot of Walthers stuff is very midwest-centric (which is why you don't see a lot of mission-style buildings and other western stuff offered by Walthers, despite the fact that there are a lot of Western railroaders.) Heck, the last time I took the train back to Chicago, just about everything east of Omaha looked like something out of the Walthers catalog!

[DSchmitt]

There are some fast food places near the tracks, particulary in small towns.

In Marysville CA the UP (former SP east valley line) main line runs behind the Dairy Queen. The former Fosters Freeze is a block north across the street.

In Lincoln CA the main line runs behind the McDonalds (which is an extensively remodeled A&W)

In Davis CA switching crews used to park their loco on the SP west valley line (now California Northern) and walk about 20' to the side door of the Dairy Queen.

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SuperChiefFan

I would like to see modern skyscrapers offered by various manufacturers, if only on a limited basis. True, you can purchase backdrops with tall buildings to compliment smaller buildings in a city scene, but that may be enough if you model an urban scene with trains terminating close to the heart of a downtown. Kitbashing could be effective if you've the patience and know-how; you could then create the height and style you desire. I think the only other way to go would be to seek the services of someone who scratchbuilds buildings routinely, which could be expensive.[:)]

If you have the patience and know-how to build a kit, you have the patience and know-how to kitbash a kit.

If you are pretty good at building kits, you have the patience and know-how to scratchbuild.

There are quite a few articles on how to scratchbuild or kitbash large city buildings--check out Kalmbach's BUILDING CITY STREETS FOR YOUR MODEL RAILROAD. There is no magical wizardry involved in scratchbuilding, and kitbashing is pretty much the same as building a kit, you just ignore the instruction sheet! And if you have an article to work with, you even have instructions to follow.

Limited-edition structure kits will COST. The techniques I've seen for scratchbuilding skyscrapers (Plexiglas body form,with striping tape and mat board in a cross pattern to represent windows) is ridiculously cheap for the size of building you get, and it's a very simple construction technique suitable for 30's Art Deco skyscrapers or modern glass-and-steel rectangles (which are even simpler due to their simple, minimalist lines!)

Oh yeah, that's right--Walthers does a White Castle model.

[Anonymous]

I model in N Scale, and I would like to point out what I see as an irony among manufacturing. There is alot of "modern " locomotives and rolling stock produced, but much of the ancillary items (buildings, autos, trucks, etc..) is from the transition era. I do believe that more modern buildings are needed. Indeed, there are newer models of modern industrial buildings being produced. What is needed are the residential and urban/suburban structures. People tend to model what they are familiar with, and our younger modelers would like to see the things they grew up with or see now.

[Anonymous]

I would like to see modern skyscrapers offered by various manufacturers, if only on a limited basis. True, you can purchase backdrops with tall buildings to compliment smaller buildings in a city scene, but that may not be enough if you model an urban scene with trains terminating close to the heart of a downtown. Kitbashing could be effective if you've the patience and know-how; you could then create the height and style you desire. I think the only other way to go would be to seek the services of someone who scratchbuilds buildings routinely, which could be expensive.[:)]

[StillGrande]

Incidentally, a Burger King (or other fast food facility) situated towntown would be located on the ground floor of an office building. It would not be in a separate small structure such as are available as HO kits.

CNJ831

[ndbprr]

Well since no railroad runs at the foot of the Sears Tower there really isn't a need for a full sized one as it would be a background building regardless of where one modeled in Chicago. What is needed is warehouse or manufacturing district buildings in the 6-10 story range that dominate the trains. Even in major cities the freight district wasn't in the downtown area but in the seedier or outlying areas of the city. My pet peeve is the dearth of rooftop details particularly the variety of watertanks, towers and strucures to support them. I once thought of starting a company to specialize in those details and call it "Tanks for the Memories". Alas it is just a figment of my imagination yet today.

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by doughickman

I think so. One problem is the issue of selective compression. How many feet of structure would be needed to model the Sears Tower for example?

Six feet. At least, that's how tall the selectively compressed model of the Sears Tower at the Museum of Science & Industry appears to be...and, at least so far as I know, that's probably about the best example of how to "selectively compress" a major city that I've ever seen.

As to modern suburbs near rail lines--okay, you've got me there. Roseville Yard used to be "in the sticks" but now modern cookie-cutter housing developments surround it.

There are a couple of options--one thing I've noticed is that there is usually a sound wall between the railroad and the housing development. Make the housing development part of a backdrop--take a photo of a morass of those stucco horrors and scan it, then print out a large (maybe 11x17) color image of this background scene and apply this to your backdrop. Then, take some brick paper, cut a wall about 10-14' high, paint it a nice beige color, and set it in front of your backdrop, creating the impression that a big ol' suburban housing tract sits just beyond this sound wall. You can make gaps in the wall to represent entrances to said development--get an HO scale Lexus to block the view of the wall.

Shopping centers would be pretty easy to model--as I mentioned above, just make walls out of brick sheet (make the underlying structure from cardboard), use off-the-shelf modular door/window castings for the front (or just apply some striping tape to clear plastic, maybe with reflective "window tint" on the inside, to represent the doors and windows of a modern storefront) and add a few doors in the back. Then, take some photos of shopping mall stores--donut shop, restaurant, beauty parlor, dry cleaning, etcetera. Scan the photos and print out copies of the signs, including things like posters in the window, scaled to the appropriate size--cut them out and glue 'em to the front of your building. Add a few dumpsters in the back and a parking lot in the front and you've got a shopping center. IF THEY DON'T MAKE A KIT FOR IT--BUILD IT YOURSELF! Scratchbuilding is easy, and something like a shopping center is doubly easy.

If you want to model suburban homes in 3-D, you do have one advantage--since modern housing developments all look the same, you just need to find ONE building and buy dozens of the same kit!

[Roadtrp]

In the suburbs you get new development around the rail lines, since the rail lines were there first. The suburb I live in has been developed almost entirely since 1980. We have rail lines near modern strip malls, apartment buildings, condos, and even near some $300,000 homes developed in the last 10 years.

In downtown Minneapolis you also get very modern buildings near the rail lines. The "gateway" area of downtown Minneapolis was the area surrounding the old Great Northern depot. The area had turned into a real "skid row" and during the 60's everything was torn down and redeveloped in an urban renewal project. That project has since been criticized for robbing Minneapolis of many of its historic buildings. It has also resulted in much new development close to rail lines.

I know I'm odd. I've decided to model a time and place that doesn't seem very popular among modelers. But that's the great thing about MR -- if you want historic accuracy, you can do that. If you want to model your own fantasy, you can do that too.

:)

[doughickman]

I think so. One problem is the issue of selective compression. How many feet of structure would be needed to model the Sears Tower for example? Modelers have been selectively compressing mountains for years.
Another problem was touched on by an earlier poster. For the composition of a railroad to be really effective, I would think there would have to be a reason for a train to be there - next to the building - to be believeable. Certainly, modelers of the Chicago area (or other large cities with urban transit lines) would have ample reason to have trains near large buildings - but a large urban area (complete with large office buildings and restaraunts may often exclude other forms of rail traffic.
I do not think these problems are insurmountable. I look forward to seeing how modelers resolve these issues. It might even make an interesting series of articles in MODEL RAILROADER - how would (name of featured layout builder of your choice) resolve such questions in a two-foot by four-foot "module"?