Are modern city buildings needed in the hobby?

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I wonder if folks would like modern buildings, and especially city type buildings added to the list of models available to build?

I was even thinking about things like a Burger King or Dairy Queen and such to go along with skyscrapers (or short skyscrapers) as part of a city scape.

Also how about newer residential houses?

[michaelstevens]

LM,

I'd say it depends entirely on what period your layout is supposed to represent.
I'm quite happy with e.g. the Walthers office high rises, banks and hotels, which I guess are from the 40's and 50's -- they're appropriate for my 60's thru 90's era.
Check out the ads in MR and/or on-line -- seems to me that there already several modern building kits available.

Enjoy -- Mike in Philly [:)]

[Anonymous]

i say go for it! in the books and layouts ive seen i haven't noticed it, but what do i know im just a beginner

[nfmisso]

LM;

Bachmann had a line of excellent modern skyscrapers - they flopped in the market, probably because that much plastic cost $$$. Check Walthers for fast food; they have several from various manufacturers.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the feedback. I did enter "fast food" in Walthers but didn't get any results.

I saw a number of 1960's Burger type buildings (when I searched for buildings) but nothing modern.

Not that burgers are all that significant; just looking to find new ideas to try and turn into models.

[Mikeygaw]

i would like to see them... even if they do bad, it would be nice too be able to buy them, and i would certainly add them to have a nice modern skyline on my model line

[Roadtrp]

Yes, I would like to see modern city buildings. I'm modeling the 80's/90's, and would like something that looks like it was built after the 40's. I'm in 'N' scale, and Bachmann has some pretty nice modern suburban buildings (housing, fast food, auto dealership, etc), but nothing much in the way of "downtown' buildings.

[Anonymous]

I think more people model before big city's.

[Jetrock]

I wouldn't say that, since big cities existed before the railroads. Traditionally model railroads have had more emphasis on country railroads and relatively rural settings, but urban railroading and representation of cities on railroads has been around for a long time--traction modeling, for example, has always been focused on modeling cities since that is where trolleys ran.

It's perfectly appropriate for model railroaders modeling the modern era to utilize buildings from the early 1900's to present--since, if you look around, many industries near rail lines still use the same buildings. Cities that were built primarily after the 1950's tend to not have much in the way of railroad service.

I've seen quite a few modern buildings in model railroad catalogs--especially in the way of industries and modern warehouses. And I think part of the reason why one doesn't see, say, McDonald's in kit form is because fast-food companies are pretty protective of their trademarks (gee, sound familiar?) and model companies would have to pay licensing fees to produce them.

One thing to keep in mind is what sort of buildings you actually see near railroads. For some perspective on modern model railroading, stop by your local rail line, walk near the line and observe what kind of buildings are within a couple blocks of the railroad.. Are they new and shiny or kind of dumpy? Are there a lot of tall buildings or shopping areas or residential neighborhoods? Part of creating an effective scene on a model railroad involves using this sort of observation to create a sense of place.

You certainly don't HAVE to--feel free to put a skyscraper and a gas station and a grain mill next to each other on your main line if that's what gets you off--but it can be pleasing to keep in mind the composition of a scene, like a photographer or painter or other sort of artist would do. For, in a lot of ways, model railroading is an art form--we want to capture an aspect of the real world in an impossibly compact miniature form. Using an artist's tricks, primarily our senses' impressions and our ability to observe and relay details of a scene, we can enhance that illusion to create a scene that pleases us and our visitors.

[CNJ831]

As an earlier poster noted, Bachmann offered some very large city buildings for a short time a few years ago. At $60-$90 each they were too expensive and finally were dropped. However, I think an even more important factor in their failure was that to be employed realistically a huge amount of space had to be allocated just to the city. Most modelers simply don't have the available space to devote to such a city scene.

Incidentally, a Burger King (or other fast food facility) situated towntown would be located on the ground floor of an office building. It would not be in a separate small structure such as are available as HO kits.

CNJ831

[doughickman]

I think so. One problem is the issue of selective compression. How many feet of structure would be needed to model the Sears Tower for example? Modelers have been selectively compressing mountains for years.
Another problem was touched on by an earlier poster. For the composition of a railroad to be really effective, I would think there would have to be a reason for a train to be there - next to the building - to be believeable. Certainly, modelers of the Chicago area (or other large cities with urban transit lines) would have ample reason to have trains near large buildings - but a large urban area (complete with large office buildings and restaraunts may often exclude other forms of rail traffic.
I do not think these problems are insurmountable. I look forward to seeing how modelers resolve these issues. It might even make an interesting series of articles in MODEL RAILROADER - how would (name of featured layout builder of your choice) resolve such questions in a two-foot by four-foot "module"?

[Roadtrp]

In the suburbs you get new development around the rail lines, since the rail lines were there first. The suburb I live in has been developed almost entirely since 1980. We have rail lines near modern strip malls, apartment buildings, condos, and even near some $300,000 homes developed in the last 10 years.

In downtown Minneapolis you also get very modern buildings near the rail lines. The "gateway" area of downtown Minneapolis was the area surrounding the old Great Northern depot. The area had turned into a real "skid row" and during the 60's everything was torn down and redeveloped in an urban renewal project. That project has since been criticized for robbing Minneapolis of many of its historic buildings. It has also resulted in much new development close to rail lines.

I know I'm odd. I've decided to model a time and place that doesn't seem very popular among modelers. But that's the great thing about MR -- if you want historic accuracy, you can do that. If you want to model your own fantasy, you can do that too.

:)

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by doughickman

I think so. One problem is the issue of selective compression. How many feet of structure would be needed to model the Sears Tower for example?

Six feet. At least, that's how tall the selectively compressed model of the Sears Tower at the Museum of Science & Industry appears to be...and, at least so far as I know, that's probably about the best example of how to "selectively compress" a major city that I've ever seen.

As to modern suburbs near rail lines--okay, you've got me there. Roseville Yard used to be "in the sticks" but now modern cookie-cutter housing developments surround it.

There are a couple of options--one thing I've noticed is that there is usually a sound wall between the railroad and the housing development. Make the housing development part of a backdrop--take a photo of a morass of those stucco horrors and scan it, then print out a large (maybe 11x17) color image of this background scene and apply this to your backdrop. Then, take some brick paper, cut a wall about 10-14' high, paint it a nice beige color, and set it in front of your backdrop, creating the impression that a big ol' suburban housing tract sits just beyond this sound wall. You can make gaps in the wall to represent entrances to said development--get an HO scale Lexus to block the view of the wall.

Shopping centers would be pretty easy to model--as I mentioned above, just make walls out of brick sheet (make the underlying structure from cardboard), use off-the-shelf modular door/window castings for the front (or just apply some striping tape to clear plastic, maybe with reflective "window tint" on the inside, to represent the doors and windows of a modern storefront) and add a few doors in the back. Then, take some photos of shopping mall stores--donut shop, restaurant, beauty parlor, dry cleaning, etcetera. Scan the photos and print out copies of the signs, including things like posters in the window, scaled to the appropriate size--cut them out and glue 'em to the front of your building. Add a few dumpsters in the back and a parking lot in the front and you've got a shopping center. IF THEY DON'T MAKE A KIT FOR IT--BUILD IT YOURSELF! Scratchbuilding is easy, and something like a shopping center is doubly easy.

If you want to model suburban homes in 3-D, you do have one advantage--since modern housing developments all look the same, you just need to find ONE building and buy dozens of the same kit!

[ndbprr]

Well since no railroad runs at the foot of the Sears Tower there really isn't a need for a full sized one as it would be a background building regardless of where one modeled in Chicago. What is needed is warehouse or manufacturing district buildings in the 6-10 story range that dominate the trains. Even in major cities the freight district wasn't in the downtown area but in the seedier or outlying areas of the city. My pet peeve is the dearth of rooftop details particularly the variety of watertanks, towers and strucures to support them. I once thought of starting a company to specialize in those details and call it "Tanks for the Memories". Alas it is just a figment of my imagination yet today.

[StillGrande]

Incidentally, a Burger King (or other fast food facility) situated towntown would be located on the ground floor of an office building. It would not be in a separate small structure such as are available as HO kits.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

I would like to see modern skyscrapers offered by various manufacturers, if only on a limited basis. True, you can purchase backdrops with tall buildings to compliment smaller buildings in a city scene, but that may not be enough if you model an urban scene with trains terminating close to the heart of a downtown. Kitbashing could be effective if you've the patience and know-how; you could then create the height and style you desire. I think the only other way to go would be to seek the services of someone who scratchbuilds buildings routinely, which could be expensive.[:)]

[Anonymous]

I model in N Scale, and I would like to point out what I see as an irony among manufacturing. There is alot of "modern " locomotives and rolling stock produced, but much of the ancillary items (buildings, autos, trucks, etc..) is from the transition era. I do believe that more modern buildings are needed. Indeed, there are newer models of modern industrial buildings being produced. What is needed are the residential and urban/suburban structures. People tend to model what they are familiar with, and our younger modelers would like to see the things they grew up with or see now.

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SuperChiefFan

I would like to see modern skyscrapers offered by various manufacturers, if only on a limited basis. True, you can purchase backdrops with tall buildings to compliment smaller buildings in a city scene, but that may be enough if you model an urban scene with trains terminating close to the heart of a downtown. Kitbashing could be effective if you've the patience and know-how; you could then create the height and style you desire. I think the only other way to go would be to seek the services of someone who scratchbuilds buildings routinely, which could be expensive.[:)]

If you have the patience and know-how to build a kit, you have the patience and know-how to kitbash a kit.

If you are pretty good at building kits, you have the patience and know-how to scratchbuild.

There are quite a few articles on how to scratchbuild or kitbash large city buildings--check out Kalmbach's BUILDING CITY STREETS FOR YOUR MODEL RAILROAD. There is no magical wizardry involved in scratchbuilding, and kitbashing is pretty much the same as building a kit, you just ignore the instruction sheet! And if you have an article to work with, you even have instructions to follow.

Limited-edition structure kits will COST. The techniques I've seen for scratchbuilding skyscrapers (Plexiglas body form,with striping tape and mat board in a cross pattern to represent windows) is ridiculously cheap for the size of building you get, and it's a very simple construction technique suitable for 30's Art Deco skyscrapers or modern glass-and-steel rectangles (which are even simpler due to their simple, minimalist lines!)

Oh yeah, that's right--Walthers does a White Castle model.

[DSchmitt]

There are some fast food places near the tracks, particulary in small towns.

In Marysville CA the UP (former SP east valley line) main line runs behind the Dairy Queen. The former Fosters Freeze is a block north across the street.

In Lincoln CA the main line runs behind the McDonalds (which is an extensively remodeled A&W)

In Davis CA switching crews used to park their loco on the SP west valley line (now California Northern) and walk about 20' to the side door of the Dairy Queen.

[Jetrock]

yes, in small towns. As mentioned above, a main reason why you don't really see things like scale McDonald's is due to the fact that McDonald's would want licensing fees, not because no McDonald's are located near railroad tracks. There are plenty of models of greasy spoons and burger joints out there.

I'd note that there is a kit for White Castle, a Midwestern chain--but, quite frankly, a lot of Walthers stuff is very midwest-centric (which is why you don't see a lot of mission-style buildings and other western stuff offered by Walthers, despite the fact that there are a lot of Western railroaders.) Heck, the last time I took the train back to Chicago, just about everything east of Omaha looked like something out of the Walthers catalog!

[JPowell]

I can't remember off the top of my head as to who makes them, but Walther's has both a modern BK and a 70's/80's KFC on their website.

[bluepuma]

Yep. I'd like to have some 3-5 story buildings in N.. I'm going to do Little Tokyo with Tomix 9 story and the other. Why are there no Chinese stylized resturants with the roofs that every Chinatown and many independed places had in the 50's.

Concor lists a Burger King and 7/11 store in their catalog, but they are too late for my 55-62 time frame.

I'd like to see some supermarkets bigger than a Jr. Market or 7/11. Those lasted from 55-present with only facelifts, signage. Albertson's Ralph's Lucky's.

[Anonymous]

Take a look at the downtown of most towns or cities and you are likely to see a lot of older buildings with an updated facade and signage. The number of recent buildings is usually small by comparison. If you are modeling in the modern era, you can update your older Design Preservation or Pikestuff buildings with scratchbuilt fronts made out of styrene.

What's missing are truly modern signs from the last ten or twenty years--places like Starbucks, for example You could make them yourself, but it would be nice for someone like BlairLine to step in and fill the void.

John

[Anonymous]

We definately need modern buildings in the hobby. we have modern diesels and rolling stock but not many buildings of modern era. I prefer the modern era on my layout, nothing against the steam though.

[Jetrock]

Look.

Just spray a cardboard shoebox beige and slap a couple plastic doors on the front. Go take a picture of a sign for whatever building you want to model, print it out and slap the sign on the front. Lovely model, will take you about three hours including a drive to your local big-box retailer and half an hour waiting for the beige paint on your cardboard box to dry.

IF THERE IS NO KIT, BUIILD IT!! I can see why you'd complain if these were buildings with a ton of ornate curlicues and strange elaborate Victorian detailing, but what' you're talking about are just big rectangular brick boxes with about as much elaborate detail as the average...cardboard box.

Plus, just to put things in more perspective, go try measuring the size of a big-box retailer (Target or Wal-Mart or what have you)while you're out there taking photos, and you'll find, quite quickly, that one of them scaled down accurately to HO scale will take up your entire 4x8 sheet of plywood, NOT COUNTING the parking lot!

There is a very good reason why there aren't very many large buildings modeled for model railroads--most of them would be too darned big to fit on the layout! Not to mention the fact that they'd cost so much that there would be as many threads on this forum about their exorbitant cost as there are about articulated Big Boys.

There are millions of buildings in the modern world (not to mention the past) that have never been modeled--this is not a crime against nature, it's just a call for you to get off your tuchus and go scratchbuild something!

bluepuma: Try checking out the catalogs of Japanese model railroad manufacturers for Asian-looking buildings for use in making a Chinatown.

[Roadtrp]

Why do some folks get so testy whenever anyone wants to model something past the transition era? There ARE new buildings in downtown areas. And not all of them look like a danged shoebox painted beige. The space taken would not be excessive either. A fairly large downtown building would be 1/4 city block long, 1/8 city block wide, and 20 stories high. That could be modeled in ‘N’ by a building 7.5” long x 3.75” wide x 15” tall. I don’t know about you, but I have that much space on my layout.

Please stop ranting about how we should build our own. The fact is you can buy kits or built-ups from other eras – why shouldn’t you be able to do it with the modern era if that is what you want?

[Anonymous]

I see a need for more modern buildings. Very few seem to be available. Not neccessarily skyscrapers, but modern gas stations/convenience stories, banks, restaurants, super markets, strip centers, etc. Things that could be used in cities, suburbs or smaller towns.

[Anonymous]

One other point to remember is most layouts focus on the railroad (you're all saying... duh!) so therefore tend to be linear. If your layout is only 3 feet wide (about the maximum for good reach), with the tracks roughly in the middle, that space is somewhat less than 300 feet across - less than 150 feet across.

How many sky-scrapers or suburban malls (or other larger buildings) can fit entirely within 150 feet of a rail line? Maybe that is why the largest buildings tend to be restricted to either flats or the backdrop themselves. You'd have to have a lot of room for even one of these big modern buildings... If in fact any of them are that close to the tracks...

On the other hand, I can see demand for models of new smaller buildings, like gas stations, or small manufacturers, or low-rise office buildings. Many of these might be easy enough to scratch build.

One of the buildings near my office put up an addition in about 2 weeks last summer. It, like the rest of the building is simply covered with corregated siding, with windows on the first floor only. Wouldn't be too hard to build.

Andrew

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

Why do some folks get so testy whenever anyone wants to model something past the transition era? There ARE new buildings in downtown areas. And not all of them look like a danged shoebox painted beige. The space taken would not be excessive either. A fairly large downtown building would be 1/4 city block long, 1/8 city block wide, and 20 stories high. That could be modeled in ‘N’ by a building 7.5” long x 3.75” wide x 15” tall. I don’t know about you, but I have that much space on my layout.

As I think was mentioned above, one or two companies have tried selling tall buildings and they tanked in the marketplace--there just isn't that much demand. I'm not that familiar with what is available in N scale, but there's a lot more HO stuff...and maybe that's where we've got a difference of opinion. I see quite a few modern structures, or buildings that would fit right in on a modern layout, whenever I go to the hobby shop. Folks have mentioned White Castle, 7-11 and other fast-food restaurants available--I've seen quite a few modern gas station kits--and for those interested in things that interact with the trains, there are quite a few nice modern industrial buildings. Heck, recently I've noticed a trend of kits that appear to be modeled after the modern trend of renovating and modernizing old city buildings--which would make them look out of place on a transition or earlier layout but fit perfectly onto a modern layout!

QUOTE:
Please stop ranting about how we should build our own. The fact is you can buy kits or built-ups from other eras – why shouldn’t you be able to do it with the modern era if that is what you want?

To which I say, check your catalogs--there are modern buildings out there to be bought. As someone who models the supposedly thoroughly-represented transition era but still has to scratchbuild and kitba***o get exactly the buildings (and rolling stock, and motive power) I want, I have little sympathy.

Besides, there is the simple fact that old buildings can be fit quite well into a modern layout, but modern buildings don't fit into period layouts--so while you can use "my" kind of buildings, I can't use yours!

Consider it a trade-off of sorts. You have no problem finding motive power and rolling stock but can't find many buildings. I can find buildings but nobody makes motive power appropriate for the railroad I model except $500 a pop brass...unpainted!!

[on30francisco]

Yes, I'd like to see more modern buildings available. Although my narrow gauge On30 and HO layout depicts the early part of the 20th centuty, modelers who model the present era need them.