Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Using Cat 6 Ethernet cable for feeder drops?

4604 views
40 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    July 2009
  • From: lavale, md
  • 4,649 posts
Posted by gregc on Wednesday, April 17, 2024 8:30 AM

fwright
The calcs have shown that the Cat 6 wire will be adequate for your feeders.  You could go bigger, but not any smaller.

i think there'd be little harm in going much smaller, but larger gauge wires would probably be much easier to handle.

here are some values considering

  • that code 83 rail is the equivalent of 26g wire
  • cat 6 is 23g, cat 5 24g
  • that there are 1' feeders every 6' and therefore every piece of rail is within 6' of 2 feeders

these values show that the ressitance through the 2 feeders and rail are less than 0.1 Ohm, a voltage drop of less than 0.1V at 1A

Feeder/Track resistance: wireG 22, railG 26
    n 1, k 1 rWire 0.016 Ohm/ft, rRail 0.122 Ohm/ft, tot  0.069 Ohm

Feeder/Track resistance: wireG 24, railG 26
    n 1, k 1 rWire 0.026 Ohm/ft, rRail 0.122 Ohm/ft, tot  0.074 Ohm

Feeder/Track resistance: wireG 28, railG 26
    n 1, k 1 rWire 0.065 Ohm/ft, rRail 0.122 Ohm/ft, tot  0.094 Ohm

 4101

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

  • Member since
    April 2023
  • 27 posts
Posted by Lost in A2 on Wednesday, April 17, 2024 8:16 AM

Fred, I don't think you are right about the limit on a PowerCab. When I first started planning my N-scale layout, I was expecting three operators. I ended up with two, but I think I bought a four-port PCP; I will look when I get home tonight. 

  • Member since
    November 2002
  • From: Colorado
  • 4,074 posts
Posted by fwright on Tuesday, April 16, 2024 7:12 PM

The Milwaukee Road Warrior
I don't know what I will end up with for locomotives but I'm planning for about a dozen, of which, only 2 or 3 tops will ever be running at the same time. Probably just me and one of the kids running one each. A road freight and a switcher. Cut off switches sound like a great idea ... like numerous things that I would have to research how to do. I'm kind of waiting to see what kind of feedback I get here.

I haven't been part of the discussion, but will throw my 2 cents in.

The calcs have shown that the Cat 6 wire will be adequate for your feeders.  You could go bigger, but not any smaller.

You can add a second throttle to Power Cab without difficulty.  Adding a third can't be done.  So if you have only one of the kids and yourself operating, the Power Cab is sufficient with the addition of a second throttle.

If you want a 3rd train/3rd operator, you will need to add the Smart Booster which will provide extra current and has provision for extra throttles.  Your Power Cab becomes a throttle to the Smart Booster, which serves as both command station and booster.  Personally, with 2, max 3 operators, I wouldn't bother with power districts - the one booster is sufficient to run everything.  I'm a firm believer in one person and one throttle per train in motion.

Keep it as simple as you can - it's easier to construct and maintain if you are not an electrical/electronics type.

My 2 cents

Fred W

  • Member since
    June 2007
  • 8,873 posts
Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:38 PM

I used 20 AWG solid to give a little margin when I need longer drops where the bus isn't directly under the track.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,076 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, February 20, 2024 1:35 PM

ndbprr

Back to the original topic.  There is no reason you can't double up cat 6 wire and twist the  ends together for a larger current capacity and longer lengths.

Is that really advisable? I don't know enough to challenge that approach, but it seems to me that it would be far better to forgo 23 gauge wire, if it is too fine, in favor of a heavier gauge wire such as 22 gauge or even 20 gauge.
 
Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    September 2002
  • 7,475 posts
Posted by ndbprr on Tuesday, February 20, 2024 12:23 PM

Back to the original topic.  There is no reason you can't double up cat 6 wire and twist the  ends together for a larger current capacity and longer lengths.

  • Member since
    April 2023
  • 27 posts
Posted by Lost in A2 on Monday, February 19, 2024 12:26 PM

I want to throw something out there.

If you're able to run trains on DC, -and- your locomotives have DCC decoders, just plug in the PowerCab, for now. Just to see it work. 

Then continue with the wiring project. 

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,076 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 19, 2024 12:05 PM

Andy, I find myself thinking about your layout, and the more that I think about it, the more I am convinced that you should move forward with the wiring and treat the drop down section as a semi-permanent duckunder. Once you master the soldering of feeders and finalize the routing of the bus wires, you can always go back and tackle the drop down section. This approach would also permit you to move forward with the possible addition of a booster and circuit breakers for separate power districts.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,076 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 19, 2024 9:35 AM

I was not about to recommend moving the layout since you are too far along with it, but it is interesting to read that your initial consideration was to use the other end of the basement. Live and learn.

Going back to the drop down section where you enter the layout, if you can manage to crawl underneath it, my advice would be to design it as a duckunder. That approach would tremendously facilitate the wiring and eliminate the possibility of derailments due to misalignment of tracks.

If your budget will permit it, I would definitely recommend a 5 amp booster and the addition of one or more power districts, each powered by a circuit breaker. While I am a big fan/user of NCE equipment, my circuit breakers are all PSX units. From what I read from other users, NCE circuit breakers are just fine, but I am totally satisfied with the PSX circuit breakers. Your choice. My advice is to forget about light bulbs. Circuit breakers are much more sophisticated, easy to use, and totally adjustable to be compatible with your booster capacity.

Routing the bus wires requires a lot of thought and planning at the outset. A couple of considerations are paramount. One, you do not want an oval. You need to break up the bus routing into a branch formation. Two, you want to place limits on every individual length, 50 feet maximum, 25 feet ideally. Three, try to design the buses to run under the mainlines and yards.

Since you alredy have a soldering station, you are only a step away from mastering the art. Use some small sections of your bus wires and practice soldering feeders to them. Someone on this thread suggested a tool that separates the plastic insulation on 14 gauge bus wires to create a space where feeders can be wrapped around the exposed copper bus wire and soldered. Practice that on the work bench before laying on your back under the layout. 

I have tried every method imaginable to solder wires to track and rail joiners. Over the course of five layouts, my current method is to use 20 gauge solid wire. I solder the end of the feeder to the outside of the rail on every section of track. My method is to bend the end of the feeder 90 degrees to form an upside down 'L'. Then, I bend the L slightly inwards toward the rail and solder it to the rail. Works like a charm. Practice that as well on the workbench using a piece of flextrack.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    November 2019
  • 402 posts
Posted by The Milwaukee Road Warrior on Monday, February 19, 2024 6:25 AM

richhotrain

Andy, I have been studying your photos and diagrams. Here are some thoughts and comments.

1. I count six tracks traversing that drop down section. That could prove to be the Achilles heel of your layout. Regarding duckunders, I had one crossing an aisle on my last layout. It was actually designed to be a lift out section, but I often used it as a duckunder because I was always needing to reach one end or the other of the layout.

On my current layout, I designed it to eliminate duckunders and lift outs and drop downs. Unforunately, I have one remote area that requires a pop up hole, and that is not fun because I occasionally need access to fix derailments. Of course, it is the place on my layout where derailments occur.

You might be better off to start out with a duckunder if your body will permit it. I presume that most of your operations take place inside the layout? So, once inside, you can remain there for a reasonable period of time.

2. My only comment on the breaker box is to hope for your sake that you rarely need access. My layout is a basemen layout, but I vowed to build it far away from the breaker box as well as the utilities such as the furnace and water heater.

3. I see that your bus wire is black and red. That is excellent for identification purposes. Regarding a booster, I only suggested that if you want to run a lot of locomotives or create power districts with circuit breakers since the Power Cab is only 2 amps. A 5 amp booster would useful with lots of locos and/or circuit breaker controlled power districts. Your Power Cab could then become your walk around throttle.

If you added a booster, you could place it mid-way on your layout and split the bus wires to run left and right. In fact, using Y-butt splices each side, left and right, could be further divided into two parallel buses, one against the wall and one against the open area of the layout, permitting shorter feeders.

Rich

 

Originally, the entire layout area you see was supposed to be the play area for my boys (who were smaller then) and the layout was going to be on the other end of my basement.  Knowing how boys play, I didn't want them smashing into my water line/water meter and breaking something so I built the small room to enclose the meter and breaker box.  I'd guess that room is 8' x 2'.  (My furnace water heater are in an opposite corner and not an issue).  I also replaced the basement window with new security glass, something I'd been wanting to do anyway.  I was expecting errant pool balls, kick balls, footballs etc..

I was well into the design phase for the space on the *other* end of the basement (more of a square area) when my wife said, "You know, I think I'd rather have the play area over here," (motioning to the "train" area).

Soooo, I had to do a switcheroo.  In the blink of an eye I had a door and a window to design around, as well as a narrower space that took my Merrill Park Yard and compressed it, making it really hard to fit anything other than a pinwheel yard in there.  I poured over my books (like Sperandeo and Armstrong et al) trying to come up with some other arrangement.  I made do with what I had.  Thankfully I had not started any benchwork yet.

The long and short is that the change in spaces pushed even the pinwheel yard out into what I knew was going to be a lift out or drop down section.  Then I had to design a way to access the small utility room.  That section pulls out manually, then I can raise a hinged section of backdrop up and suspend it from the ceiling and open the door.  It's not as bad as it sounds.  I've since cut a small access hole in the wall under the benchwork that I can reach thru and shut off the water service if I need to without opening the door.

History aside, it sounds like I may want to consider an NCE 5amp booster as well as breaking the space up into 2 or 3 power districts.  And before I start wiring I should include a circuit breaker on each district.  

In answer to some above comments, I already have many of the tools needed for the work: I have everything I need for soldering for example, including the iron that Randy Rinker suggested years ago ...just have not practised with them yet.  I have a variety of electrical tools for work I've done around the house.  I would need to get the circuit breakers from NCE.  Or the lightbulbs.  And figure out where to put them.  I've had direction both for and against terminal strips here so I would need to figure that out as well.  Knowing that I can run main buss like tree branches is a big relief.  I don't have to try to figure out how to run power *thru* drop down/pull out sections (I think).

Lots to consider here.  I appreciate the comments.  Keep them coming please.

Andy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,867 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, February 18, 2024 9:45 PM

And I thought I was pretty brave designing a layout with two liftouts. 

One has 5 tracks on three different levels, the other has 4 tracks on two different levels.

 

But the there are no turnouts, only one small curved section.

I have considered several approaches, swing gates, true lift outs, etc.

For the busiest one, I am pretty settled on building an "elevator", putting the lift out section on tracks allowing it to raise straight up an lock open, with some sort of manual crank system or a motor.

The other will most likely remain a simple manual lift out.

As someone with considerable experiance hanging doors, mostly the old fashioned way in 120 year old houses, the geometry issues of anything that swings has steered me away from those options - despite any success others have had.

I consider being "inside" the layout an absolute necessity for the type of track plan and operation I want. So short of a basement or second floor train room where the steps enter in the middle of the room, I will live with a lift out/duck under system. 

And I will likely duck under them more than lift them for as long as my health allows. Because once I'm in, all the action is accessable.

Sheldon

   

    

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,076 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, February 18, 2024 4:51 PM

Andy, I have been studying your photos and diagrams. Here are some thoughts and comments.

1. I count six tracks traversing that drop down section. That could prove to be the Achilles heel of your layout. Regarding duckunders, I had one crossing an aisle on my last layout. It was actually designed to be a lift out section, but I often used it as a duckunder because I was always needing to reach one end or the other of the layout.

On my current layout, I designed it to eliminate duckunders and lift outs and drop downs. Unforunately, I have one remote area that requires a pop up hole, and that is not fun because I occasionally need access to fix derailments. Of course, it is the place on my layout where derailments occur.

You might be better off to start out with a duckunder if your body will permit it. I presume that most of your operations take place inside the layout? So, once inside, you can remain there for a reasonable period of time.

2. My only comment on the breaker box is to hope for your sake that you rarely need access. My layout is a basemen layout, but I vowed to build it far away from the breaker box as well as the utilities such as the furnace and water heater.

3. I see that your bus wire is black and red. That is excellent for identification purposes. Regarding a booster, I only suggested that if you want to run a lot of locomotives or create power districts with circuit breakers since the Power Cab is only 2 amps. A 5 amp booster would useful with lots of locos and/or circuit breaker controlled power districts. Your Power Cab could then become your walk around throttle.

If you added a booster, you could place it mid-way on your layout and split the bus wires to run left and right. In fact, using Y-butt splices each side, left and right, could be further divided into two parallel buses, one against the wall and one against the open area of the layout, permitting shorter feeders.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    November 2019
  • 402 posts
Posted by The Milwaukee Road Warrior on Sunday, February 18, 2024 2:14 PM

richhotrain

Wow!

Those two lift sections look problematic based upon their size, location, and track work. How and where do you enter the inside opening of the layout?  Do you use the door location? 

One other question. Are you able to run trains at this time or is running awaiting completion of the wiring?

Rich

#1.  Yes, I am also concerned about the trackwork on the drop down section, which I use to get into the layout.  After reading so many comments about people building duck-unders and regretting it as they age, I bit the bullet and designed a hinged piece for the entrance.  If I did it over I would design it different but oh well.  It works, but I know I do not yet have the bulletproof trackwork needed in that area.  It's going to take some finesse to get everything to line up on all the curves.  I fully expect some major work needed to tweek things.  The gray road actually covers the gap in the drop section and you can see that the track is not secured there yet.  I have to figure out how to secure the flex on the curves crossing that painted hardboard road.  Another battle for another time.

I still have my old Tech II dc transformer and all of the locos on the layout in the pictures are old Athearn BB, so I've run those over most of the layout so far - except the drop down section.

#2.  The door location is access to the breaker box so I do need to access it from time to time for various electrical things.

#3.  I'm not able to run DCC right now - I just unboxed the Powercab a few days ago and nothing is wired.  Right after Christmas I started drilling small holes for the feeders in the station area based on the need to power all legs of the switches.  I've had the 14awg buss wire for over a year, along with the 22awg feeders provided in the kit I bought, which was the impetus for me to question if I needed longer feeders and to investigate what Midwest Model Railroad did with their wiring when I was there.

Obviously, I'm hesitant at the moment to start any wiring if it turns out I need a booster and need to break up the layout into two or more blocks with circuit breakers.  Everything I've read and seen so far says it's much harder to add things like that after the fact than to just plan for it up front.  No surprise there.

I'm sort of in a limbo where I don't yet know what I don't know.  

I've managed to power thru (no pun intended) all of the other aspects of the modeling so far without too much trouble, and I've enjoyed it.  I built and painted everything myself so far, but the wiring is probably a case analysis paralysis - or, as close to it as I've gotten so far.

I often think, I must be making this too hard.

Then I read or see something re: electrical from a modeler I respect and think 'I should probably do that.'  *added to the ever-growing list*

I think many moons ago I had a thread here about a "kill switch" for a layout, sort of along the lines of Sheldon's comment above.  Obviously I was waaaaay ahead of myself there.

 

Andy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/

  • Member since
    November 2019
  • 402 posts
Posted by The Milwaukee Road Warrior on Sunday, February 18, 2024 1:21 PM

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

You layout looks be on the borderline in terms of sze for mutiple power disticts/curcuit breakers.

How many trains do you plan to run at the same time?

How many locomotives do have or plan to have? Have you considered cutoff switches on locomotive storage tracks so those locos don't sit and "idle" with the sound on the whole time.

Sheldon

 

I don't know what I will end up with for locomotives but I'm planning for about a dozen, of which, only 2 or 3 tops will ever be running at the same time.  Probably just me and one of the kids running one each.  A road freight and a switcher.

Cut off switches sound like a great idea ... like numerous things that I would have to research how to do.  I'm kind of waiting to see what kind of feedback I get here.

Andy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/

  • Member since
    November 2019
  • 402 posts
Posted by The Milwaukee Road Warrior on Sunday, February 18, 2024 1:16 PM

richhotrain

Given the size of your layout, which is very nice by the way, you might consider adding a 5 amp booster, using the Power Cab as a walk around throttle.

Also, it would make good sense to wire all three ends of every turnout.

Rich

 

I have wondered about the need for a booster for a while now.  I guess I will see what kind of feedback I get here.  I do have a separate, dedicated 15amp circuit for the layout, and another 15amp circuit that I plan to use for wall warts for lights and such: there's hardly anything else on that circuit.

Andy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/

  • Member since
    January 2011
  • 893 posts
Posted by PennCentral99 on Sunday, February 18, 2024 9:58 AM

Hey Andy, I feel your frustration, and it's OK to feel frustrated and overwhelmed, but don't give up. There are a multitude of seasoned veterans on this forum who have chimed in and offered good, solid advice and suggestions. Just take it one section at a time

Terry

Inspired by Addiction

See more on my YouTube Channel

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,076 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, February 18, 2024 9:53 AM

Wow!

Those two lift sections look problematic based upon their size, location, and track work. How and where do you enter the inside opening of the layout?  Do you use the door location? 

One other question. Are you able to run trains at this time or is running awaiting completion of the wiring?

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    November 2019
  • 402 posts
Posted by The Milwaukee Road Warrior on Sunday, February 18, 2024 9:30 AM

Here is a sketch of the track layout.  This took a bit more time.  It is meant to represent the Menomonee Valley where the Milwaukee Road had its main shops as well as the extensive canal and rail yard system. 

I showed buildings whose location has been finalized in blue ink.  All of this track is in place except for the dashed red line near the bottom needed to finalize the wye.  If I never end up extending the layout into the rest of the basement I probably won't ever install this connection.  The two other parallel dashed red line sections are to call out the lift out/drop down sections.

Unfortunately, given the shape of the area I ended up having my most complicated trackwork on the drop down section itself.  Oy.  Couldn't be helped.  Anyway, I will stop back later today to try to address some other items that were raised.

 Track Diagram by The Milwaukee Road Warrior, on Flickr

 

Here are the basic dimensions of the space:

 Layout Dimensions by The Milwaukee Road Warrior, on Flickr

Andy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: west coast
  • 7,598 posts
Posted by rrebell on Sunday, February 18, 2024 9:21 AM

I used Posi-taps on my #10 stranded buss wires, no striping at all, just had to strip my solid drops and used 22 gauge there. The wiring was cheap.

  • Member since
    May 2021
  • From: Northern Colorado
  • 85 posts
Posted by CharlieM on Saturday, February 17, 2024 5:25 PM

The Milwaukee Road Warrior

Has anyone done this?  I hear that you can just trim off the ends and strip out the individual wires to use as feeder drops.  I'm guessing this would be something like 24/2.  The feeder wires provided in my NCE wiring kit are going to be too short in many cases at only 18" long.

 

Let’s look at an example and apply some engineering science. Cat5 riser cable is usually 24AWG and CAT6 riser cable is usually 23AWG. Let’s use 24AWG, the smaller wire, which has a resistance of 0.026 Ohms per foot. Assuming even a 5 foot feeder that would be 0.026 x 10 (for two way length) or 0.26 Ohms. Most modern HO engines draw 1 Ampere or less so let’s take the worst case of 1 Ampere. Ohms Law states the voltage drop is current times resistance (E=IR) so the voltage drop for one engine would be 0.26Volts. This would hardly be noticed in engine performance. This of course assumes there is only one engine actually running in the block but this is usually the case for reasonably spaced feeders. Now for mitigating factors. I have assumed the feeder is the only source of current to the block but unless the block is totally isolated it will also get current from the adjacent blocks. I have assumed a 1 Amp current draw but most HO or N scale engines draw much less unless they are stalled and held down at maximum throttle. I have also assumed a 5 foot feeder which is probably longer than the average.

 

Bottom Line: Cat5 or Cat6 cable is fine for HO/N feeders of several feet in length. I use it all over my 24’x28’ layout with a 14AWG bus. I don’t worry at all about the feeder lengths and have had no problems. I also use CAT5 for all my control and lighting circuits at 12V with no problems. Use terminal blocks, not suitcase or T-Tap connections, and you won’t have any problems.
 
Charlie - Northern Colorado

 

  • Member since
    November 2019
  • 402 posts
Posted by The Milwaukee Road Warrior on Saturday, February 17, 2024 5:14 PM

I'm running kids around at the moment, but I do appreciate the feedback from all of you.  I will sketch up a good overhead view to load up here later tonight (showing the lift out sections) and circle back to close some of these loops of conversation here.

Pete (and anyone else): I would feel bad if I thought you thought I was upset with you.  Please don't.  I think I just literally hit a wall right at the same time you were posting.  Only my first sentence or two was in response to you haha.  The rest was directed into the ether...

 

Andy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,076 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 17, 2024 3:04 PM

The Milwaukee Road Warrior

(And don't even get me started on wiring thru my two lift sections...)

Where are those two lift sections?

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,076 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 17, 2024 2:55 PM

The Milwaukee Road Warrior

I should note that I only have an NCE Powercab.  I'm starting to wonder if that will even put out enough juice for this amount of track.

Thanks for throwing that out there: I'm curious about the sub buss but I guess I don't know how it works.  Does the main buss need to complete a circuit back at my Powercab throttle plug-in?  Or can I wire the main in branches like tree roots?  (And don't even get me started on wiring thru my two lift sections...)

Every time I think I have figured something out, it gets more complicated.  If I were planning to build multiple layouts in my life I wouldn't sweat it too much, but this is IT.  I plan to do it one time and be done.  So I feel the pressure to do it right the first time and not burn my house down.

(Rant)

BY FAR the most frustrating aspect of the last 4 years has been the electrical.  That's why you see aspects of scenery and building partially completed in my pictures: rather than get bogged down and make no progress while I try to figure out how to wire this thing, I just pivot to other projects.  At least I keep moving forward that way.

Problem is, you can only do that for so long.  I have to face the wiring eventually.  Or soon I will have the nicest looking layout that has no power to run trains.

I'm a learner by seeing with electronics/electrical and I'm getting to the point where I'm tempted to give in and hire someone.

I've read so many different things my brain is just mush at this point.  People say look at so and so's web site, or watch so and so on YouTube ...where I realize there are even MORE things I should be incorporating like circuit protection: should I buy NCE breakers?  Wire in lightbulbs?  I don't know how to even use a rrampmeter or test for shorts.  I've never soldered IN MY LIFE.  

First I was going to use terminal strips, then I heard about Wago's and was going to use those, then realized that with the number of feeders I will need I will have to chop my main buss into 100 different tiny little sections to use the Wago's, so I went back to considering terminal strips.  God, it just doesn't end.

I find myself getting extremely frustrated by the whole "just run the wires, plug em in and turn it on and you're ready to run trains!"

I know that once I've been thru this once I will forever know how to do it.  But in the meantime I'm struggling.  The only other option is to maybe join a club, but I don't have the time or money so here I sit ... looking for little things to work on and terrified that I will blow a decoder and have a $300 paperweight.  Don't have the $ for that either.  For the first time since I rejoined the hobby I'm not enjoying it.

(end rant) 

Andy, I totally enjoyed the rant. You are a true model railroader. You have all the attributes: frustration, despair, fear, lack of enjoyment. Smile, Wink & Grin

Here are my takeaways:

1. Add a booster.

2. Create one or more power districts.

3. Learn to solder (it is the only real wire to install wiring).

4. You don't need terminal strips or Wagos.

5. A RRampMeter is fun but not really a necessity.

6. Yes, once you do something, you will forever know how to do it.

7. This is the first time that you are not enjoying the hobby? Newbie? LOL

8. Just run the wires, plug em in, turn it on, and you're ready to run trains! Laugh

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    May 2020
  • 1,056 posts
Posted by wrench567 on Saturday, February 17, 2024 2:49 PM

  Andy.

  I'm sorry if you misunderstood. I don't chop my buss wires. I have a pair of wire strippers that grabs the insulation and pulls it apart about an inch. I think some people call them automatic strippers. And another thing is that my layout is modular and the longest span is 6 feet.

  It's not the size of the layout. It's the load that's put on your Power Cab. Four or five sound equipped locomotives will probably tax it. Luckily there are multiple ways to upgrade. But that is another discussion for later.

  Your buss should not loop and attach together. You run the risk of echoes and cross talk in the digital wave form. I've been wiring DCC for decades. There has been loads of suggestions for running buss lines. From keeping them separated at least 6 inches to twisting them together. The only right way is to make sure you have solid connections and do a quarter test on each piece of rail.

     Pete 

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,076 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 17, 2024 2:26 PM

duplicate post

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,076 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 17, 2024 2:23 PM

If you were to add a booster, I would put it under the layout where that step stool is sitting and run your bus wires to the left and to the right, directly under the mainlines instead of an oval bus.

Then, I would create one or more power districts, each controlled by a circuit breaker. One location for a power district would be that turntable complex including the approach tracks. 

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Sebring FL
  • 841 posts
Posted by floridaflyer on Saturday, February 17, 2024 2:18 PM

Given the size and complexity of the layout, having the layout broken down into power districts with circut breakers  would be an advantage.

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,867 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, February 17, 2024 2:12 PM

The Milwaukee Road Warrior

 

 
wrench567

  Andy.

  How about sub bus. Branches of buss wire off the main buss. Or what I have done and still do is 22 AWG through the base board soldered to a piece of 16 or 14 AWG on to the 10 AWG buss lines. This way the maximum length of 22AWG is less than 6 inches.

 

 

I should note that I only have an NCE Powercab.  I'm starting to wonder if that will even put out enough juice for this amount of track.

Thanks for throwing that out there: I'm curious about the sub buss but I guess I don't know how it works.  Does the main buss need to complete a circuit back at my Powercab throttle plug-in?  Or can I wire the main in branches like tree roots?  (And don't even get me started on wiring thru my two lift sections...)

Every time I think I have figured something out, it gets more complicated.  If I were planning to build multiple layouts in my life I wouldn't sweat it too much, but this is IT.  I plan to do it one time and be done.  So I feel the pressure to do it right the first time and not burn my house down.

(Rant)

BY FAR the most frustrating aspect of the last 4 years has been the electrical.  That's why you see aspects of scenery and building partially completed in my pictures: rather than get bogged down and make no progress while I try to figure out how to wire this thing, I just pivot to other projects.  At least I keep moving forward that way.

Problem is, you can only do that for so long.  I have to face the wiring eventually.  Or soon I will have the nicest looking layout that has no power to run trains.

I'm a learner by seeing with electronics/electrical and I'm getting to the point where I'm tempted to give in and hire someone.

I've read so many different things my brain is just mush at this point.  People say look at so and so's web site, or watch so and so on YouTube ...where I realize there are even MORE things I should be incorporating like circuit protection: should I buy NCE breakers?  Wire in lightbulbs?  I don't know how to even use a rrampmeter or test for shorts.  I've never soldered IN MY LIFE.  

First I was going to use terminal strips, then I heard about Wago's and was going to use those, then realized that with the number of feeders I will need I will have to chop my main buss into 100 different tiny little sections to use the Wago's, so I went back to considering terminal strips.  God, it just doesn't end.

I find myself getting extremely frustrated by the whole "just run the wires, plug em in and turn it on and you're ready to run trains!"

I know that once I've been thru this once I will forever know how to do it.  But in the meantime I'm struggling.  The only other option is to maybe join a club, but I don't have the time or money so here I sit ... looking for little things to work on and terrified that I will blow a decoder and have a $300 paperweight.  Don't have the $ for that either.  For the first time since I rejoined the hobby I'm not enjoying it.

(end rant)

 

Electrical wiring of any kind can be a challenge for those who have never learned the basics of the topic.

Yes, you can wire you buss like tree roots, that is called hub and spoke wiring and it is used to wire lots of stuff.

No your buss wire does not have to be a loop.

You layout looks be on the borderline in terms of sze for mutiple power disticts/curcuit breakers.

How many trains do you plan to run at the same time?

How many locomotives do have or plan to have? Have you considered cutoff switches on locomotive storage tracks so those locos don't sit and "idle" with the sound on the whole time.

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,076 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 17, 2024 1:50 PM

Given the size of your layout, which is very nice by the way, you might consider adding a 5 amp booster, using the Power Cab as a walk around throttle.

Also, it would make good sense to wire all three ends of every turnout.

Rich

Alton Junction

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

There are no community member online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!