Has anyone done this? I hear that you can just trim off the ends and strip out the individual wires to use as feeder drops. I'm guessing this would be something like 24/2. The feeder wires provided in my NCE wiring kit are going to be too short in many cases at only 18" long.
Andy
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Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/
I use 22 gauge speaker wire, no longer than 12" in length to the buss wire. It appears that CAT6 is 23 gauge, so, I don't see why it wouldn't work. Why are you running feeder wires longer than 18"? The smaller the wire, the longer the run, the less juice at the end.
Thanks, Terry
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PennCentral99 I use 22 gauge speaker wire, no longer than 12" in length to the buss wire. It appears that CAT6 is 23 gauge, so, I don't see why it wouldn't work. Why are you running feeder wires longer than 18"? The smaller the wire, the longer the run, the less juice at the end. Thanks, Terry's
Thanks, Terry's
Alton Junction
I suppose bc I was trying to limit how much I have to snake the main buss back and forth across the layout underside: I have a relatively dense track layout so I was planning to run the main buss more or less down the middle of my deck underside (which varies from about 24" to 36" deep around the walls), then install terminal strips in spots for feeder connections.
Even if I center the main buss under the double main (which isn't centered in my benchwork but at times runs along the back edge, splits apart, runs near the front edge), I will need more than 6-12" to reach trackage along the back or front faces - especially in my yard area.
While visiting a KC hobby shop last month I looked under their layout and saw CAT cable feeder wires of various lengths running to terminal strips spaced periodically. Some of the feeders were easily 2 - 3' long, maybe even longer in places.
The Milwaukee Road Warrior I suppose bc I was trying to limit how much I have to snake the main buss back and forth across the layout underside: I have a relatively dense track layout so I was planning to run the main buss more or less down the middle of my deck underside (which varies from about 24" to 36" deep around the walls), then install terminal strips in spots for feeder connections. Even if I center the main buss under the double main (which isn't centered in my benchwork but at times runs along the back edge, splits apart, runs near the front edge), I will need more than 6-12" to reach trackage along the back or front faces - especially in my yard area. While visiting a KC hobby shop last month I looked under their layout and saw CAT cable feeder wires of various lengths running to terminal strips spaced periodically. Some of the feeders were easily 2 - 3' long, maybe even longer in places.
Rich
I will attempt to upload some photos of the layout below showing the overall site:
Layout Update Feb 2024 by The Milwaukee Road Warrior, on Flickr
In the photo below, one main is to the left with the Rio Grande box car sitting on it, the other main has split around the diesel house and is just right of the Gulf Oil gas truck on the road.
richhotrain I use 22 gauge copper stranded wire for feeders. Cat 6 Ethernet cable is 23 gauge, slightly smaller than 22 gauge, so I don't see why they won't work with 18" long feeders. As the feeder length gets longer than 18", I would be inclined to use a heavier gauge such as 20 gauge. Rich
I use 22 gauge copper stranded wire for feeders. Cat 6 Ethernet cable is 23 gauge, slightly smaller than 22 gauge, so I don't see why they won't work with 18" long feeders. As the feeder length gets longer than 18", I would be inclined to use a heavier gauge such as 20 gauge.
That makes sense. As you can probably see from the photos, I have places where feeders will be longer: the yard for example.
In addition, I have mostly Peco insulfrog turnouts and from my research I've basically gathered that the only fool-proof way to make sure I don't have dead spots is to power all three legs of my turnouts. This will require a lot of feeders, all over the place given the track arrangement.
As it would be impracticle to snake the main buss to within 6-12" of all of these locations, I'm going to more or less make a simple oval run around the layout with the buss as close as possible to the mains. In the yard/roundhouse area which is wider (nearly 36" deep) I will probably end up with some 18" long + feeders no matter where I place my terminal strips. I will plan to use larger gauge wire (20) per your suggestion. Thanks.
richhotrain The Milwaukee Road Warrior I suppose bc I was trying to limit how much I have to snake the main buss back and forth across the layout underside: I have a relatively dense track layout so I was planning to run the main buss more or less down the middle of my deck underside (which varies from about 24" to 36" deep around the walls), then install terminal strips in spots for feeder connections. Even if I center the main buss under the double main (which isn't centered in my benchwork but at times runs along the back edge, splits apart, runs near the front edge), I will need more than 6-12" to reach trackage along the back or front faces - especially in my yard area. While visiting a KC hobby shop last month I looked under their layout and saw CAT cable feeder wires of various lengths running to terminal strips spaced periodically. Some of the feeders were easily 2 - 3' long, maybe even longer in places. I use 22 gauge copper stranded wire for feeders. Cat 6 Ethernet cable is 23 gauge, slightly smaller than 22 gauge, so I don't see why they won't work with 18" long feeders. As the feeder length gets longer than 18", I would be inclined to use a heavier gauge such as 20 gauge. Rich
OK, just the experiance of the DC, guy. Back in the day my father wired the whole layout with 24 gauge telephone station wire - never any issues (the layout was 18' x 5')
I prefer solid wire for connections to the rail much easier to solder in place and much easier to attach to terminal blocks.
I use cat5 cable for all my relay control circuits, control panels, switch machines, etc.
Thermostat wire comes in slighly larger gauges, 20, 18, solid, if you want something a little heavier.
That is what I generally use for my block feeders. Those wires run from a local relay panel to the various blocks. Runs can be 8-10 feet.
Sheldon
Hello Andy,
That's a pretty nice looking layout. I can see why some of your feeders may exceed 12" run.
Why not run some feeder wires to what you think is going to be the maximum length (worst case scenario) and do a quarter test and see if your short circuit protection kicks in?
Terry
Andy.
How about sub bus. Branches of buss wire off the main buss. Or what I have done and still do is 22 AWG through the base board soldered to a piece of 16 or 14 AWG on to the 10 AWG buss lines. This way the maximum length of 22AWG is less than 6 inches.
The main reason for short feeders is not only voltage loss but really protection from over heating. It's possible to over heat a feeder when a short happens and the breaker doesn't see the short fast enough. A delay in the tripping of a circuit breaker can actually ruin a decoder or cause other problems besides glowing wires and burnt insulation. On a layout such as yours. Five amps through a long thin wire is a gamble in my opinion. I also solder every connection. Some like those suitcase connectors. But look at the little blade inside them. Do you really trust 5 to 10 amps to reliably flow through a knife edge.
Pete.
One 'advantage' to using old Ethernet cable is that the inner conductors offer eight choices for color coding.
If you are concerned with 23ga. being a bit too fine, just double the run except for the last inch up to the soldering point on the rail. (I would not leave the two wires as a 'twisted pair' unless you want them to stay neat together.)
wrench567 Andy. How about sub bus. Branches of buss wire off the main buss. Or what I have done and still do is 22 AWG through the base board soldered to a piece of 16 or 14 AWG on to the 10 AWG buss lines. This way the maximum length of 22AWG is less than 6 inches.
I should note that I only have an NCE Powercab. I'm starting to wonder if that will even put out enough juice for this amount of track.
Thanks for throwing that out there: I'm curious about the sub buss but I guess I don't know how it works. Does the main buss need to complete a circuit back at my Powercab throttle plug-in? Or can I wire the main in branches like tree roots? (And don't even get me started on wiring thru my two lift sections...)
Every time I think I have figured something out, it gets more complicated. If I were planning to build multiple layouts in my life I wouldn't sweat it too much, but this is IT. I plan to do it one time and be done. So I feel the pressure to do it right the first time and not burn my house down.
(Rant)
BY FAR the most frustrating aspect of the last 4 years has been the electrical. That's why you see aspects of scenery and building partially completed in my pictures: rather than get bogged down and make no progress while I try to figure out how to wire this thing, I just pivot to other projects. At least I keep moving forward that way.
Problem is, you can only do that for so long. I have to face the wiring eventually. Or soon I will have the nicest looking layout that has no power to run trains.
I'm a learner by seeing with electronics/electrical and I'm getting to the point where I'm tempted to give in and hire someone.
I've read so many different things my brain is just mush at this point. People say look at so and so's web site, or watch so and so on YouTube ...where I realize there are even MORE things I should be incorporating like circuit protection: should I buy NCE breakers? Wire in lightbulbs? I don't know how to even use a rrampmeter or test for shorts. I've never soldered IN MY LIFE.
First I was going to use terminal strips, then I heard about Wago's and was going to use those, then realized that with the number of feeders I will need I will have to chop my main buss into 100 different tiny little sections to use the Wago's, so I went back to considering terminal strips. God, it just doesn't end.
I find myself getting extremely frustrated by the whole "just run the wires, plug em in and turn it on and you're ready to run trains!"
I know that once I've been thru this once I will forever know how to do it. But in the meantime I'm struggling. The only other option is to maybe join a club, but I don't have the time or money so here I sit ... looking for little things to work on and terrified that I will blow a decoder and have a $300 paperweight. Don't have the $ for that either. For the first time since I rejoined the hobby I'm not enjoying it.
(end rant)
Given the size of your layout, which is very nice by the way, you might consider adding a 5 amp booster, using the Power Cab as a walk around throttle.
Also, it would make good sense to wire all three ends of every turnout.
The Milwaukee Road Warrior wrench567 Andy. How about sub bus. Branches of buss wire off the main buss. Or what I have done and still do is 22 AWG through the base board soldered to a piece of 16 or 14 AWG on to the 10 AWG buss lines. This way the maximum length of 22AWG is less than 6 inches. I should note that I only have an NCE Powercab. I'm starting to wonder if that will even put out enough juice for this amount of track. Thanks for throwing that out there: I'm curious about the sub buss but I guess I don't know how it works. Does the main buss need to complete a circuit back at my Powercab throttle plug-in? Or can I wire the main in branches like tree roots? (And don't even get me started on wiring thru my two lift sections...) Every time I think I have figured something out, it gets more complicated. If I were planning to build multiple layouts in my life I wouldn't sweat it too much, but this is IT. I plan to do it one time and be done. So I feel the pressure to do it right the first time and not burn my house down. (Rant) BY FAR the most frustrating aspect of the last 4 years has been the electrical. That's why you see aspects of scenery and building partially completed in my pictures: rather than get bogged down and make no progress while I try to figure out how to wire this thing, I just pivot to other projects. At least I keep moving forward that way. Problem is, you can only do that for so long. I have to face the wiring eventually. Or soon I will have the nicest looking layout that has no power to run trains. I'm a learner by seeing with electronics/electrical and I'm getting to the point where I'm tempted to give in and hire someone. I've read so many different things my brain is just mush at this point. People say look at so and so's web site, or watch so and so on YouTube ...where I realize there are even MORE things I should be incorporating like circuit protection: should I buy NCE breakers? Wire in lightbulbs? I don't know how to even use a rrampmeter or test for shorts. I've never soldered IN MY LIFE. First I was going to use terminal strips, then I heard about Wago's and was going to use those, then realized that with the number of feeders I will need I will have to chop my main buss into 100 different tiny little sections to use the Wago's, so I went back to considering terminal strips. God, it just doesn't end. I find myself getting extremely frustrated by the whole "just run the wires, plug em in and turn it on and you're ready to run trains!" I know that once I've been thru this once I will forever know how to do it. But in the meantime I'm struggling. The only other option is to maybe join a club, but I don't have the time or money so here I sit ... looking for little things to work on and terrified that I will blow a decoder and have a $300 paperweight. Don't have the $ for that either. For the first time since I rejoined the hobby I'm not enjoying it. (end rant)
Electrical wiring of any kind can be a challenge for those who have never learned the basics of the topic.
Yes, you can wire you buss like tree roots, that is called hub and spoke wiring and it is used to wire lots of stuff.
No your buss wire does not have to be a loop.
You layout looks be on the borderline in terms of sze for mutiple power disticts/curcuit breakers.
How many trains do you plan to run at the same time?
How many locomotives do have or plan to have? Have you considered cutoff switches on locomotive storage tracks so those locos don't sit and "idle" with the sound on the whole time.
Given the size and complexity of the layout, having the layout broken down into power districts with circut breakers would be an advantage.
If you were to add a booster, I would put it under the layout where that step stool is sitting and run your bus wires to the left and to the right, directly under the mainlines instead of an oval bus.
Then, I would create one or more power districts, each controlled by a circuit breaker. One location for a power district would be that turntable complex including the approach tracks.
duplicate post
I'm sorry if you misunderstood. I don't chop my buss wires. I have a pair of wire strippers that grabs the insulation and pulls it apart about an inch. I think some people call them automatic strippers. And another thing is that my layout is modular and the longest span is 6 feet.
It's not the size of the layout. It's the load that's put on your Power Cab. Four or five sound equipped locomotives will probably tax it. Luckily there are multiple ways to upgrade. But that is another discussion for later.
Your buss should not loop and attach together. You run the risk of echoes and cross talk in the digital wave form. I've been wiring DCC for decades. There has been loads of suggestions for running buss lines. From keeping them separated at least 6 inches to twisting them together. The only right way is to make sure you have solid connections and do a quarter test on each piece of rail.
Pete
The Milwaukee Road Warrior I should note that I only have an NCE Powercab. I'm starting to wonder if that will even put out enough juice for this amount of track. Thanks for throwing that out there: I'm curious about the sub buss but I guess I don't know how it works. Does the main buss need to complete a circuit back at my Powercab throttle plug-in? Or can I wire the main in branches like tree roots? (And don't even get me started on wiring thru my two lift sections...) Every time I think I have figured something out, it gets more complicated. If I were planning to build multiple layouts in my life I wouldn't sweat it too much, but this is IT. I plan to do it one time and be done. So I feel the pressure to do it right the first time and not burn my house down. (Rant) BY FAR the most frustrating aspect of the last 4 years has been the electrical. That's why you see aspects of scenery and building partially completed in my pictures: rather than get bogged down and make no progress while I try to figure out how to wire this thing, I just pivot to other projects. At least I keep moving forward that way. Problem is, you can only do that for so long. I have to face the wiring eventually. Or soon I will have the nicest looking layout that has no power to run trains. I'm a learner by seeing with electronics/electrical and I'm getting to the point where I'm tempted to give in and hire someone. I've read so many different things my brain is just mush at this point. People say look at so and so's web site, or watch so and so on YouTube ...where I realize there are even MORE things I should be incorporating like circuit protection: should I buy NCE breakers? Wire in lightbulbs? I don't know how to even use a rrampmeter or test for shorts. I've never soldered IN MY LIFE. First I was going to use terminal strips, then I heard about Wago's and was going to use those, then realized that with the number of feeders I will need I will have to chop my main buss into 100 different tiny little sections to use the Wago's, so I went back to considering terminal strips. God, it just doesn't end. I find myself getting extremely frustrated by the whole "just run the wires, plug em in and turn it on and you're ready to run trains!" I know that once I've been thru this once I will forever know how to do it. But in the meantime I'm struggling. The only other option is to maybe join a club, but I don't have the time or money so here I sit ... looking for little things to work on and terrified that I will blow a decoder and have a $300 paperweight. Don't have the $ for that either. For the first time since I rejoined the hobby I'm not enjoying it. (end rant)
Here are my takeaways:
1. Add a booster.
2. Create one or more power districts.
3. Learn to solder (it is the only real wire to install wiring).
4. You don't need terminal strips or Wagos.
5. A RRampMeter is fun but not really a necessity.
6. Yes, once you do something, you will forever know how to do it.
7. This is the first time that you are not enjoying the hobby? Newbie? LOL
8. Just run the wires, plug em in, turn it on, and you're ready to run trains!
The Milwaukee Road Warrior (And don't even get me started on wiring thru my two lift sections...)
(And don't even get me started on wiring thru my two lift sections...)
I'm running kids around at the moment, but I do appreciate the feedback from all of you. I will sketch up a good overhead view to load up here later tonight (showing the lift out sections) and circle back to close some of these loops of conversation here.
Pete (and anyone else): I would feel bad if I thought you thought I was upset with you. Please don't. I think I just literally hit a wall right at the same time you were posting. Only my first sentence or two was in response to you haha. The rest was directed into the ether...
The Milwaukee Road Warrior Has anyone done this? I hear that you can just trim off the ends and strip out the individual wires to use as feeder drops. I'm guessing this would be something like 24/2. The feeder wires provided in my NCE wiring kit are going to be too short in many cases at only 18" long.
I used Posi-taps on my #10 stranded buss wires, no striping at all, just had to strip my solid drops and used 22 gauge there. The wiring was cheap.
Here is a sketch of the track layout. This took a bit more time. It is meant to represent the Menomonee Valley where the Milwaukee Road had its main shops as well as the extensive canal and rail yard system.
I showed buildings whose location has been finalized in blue ink. All of this track is in place except for the dashed red line near the bottom needed to finalize the wye. If I never end up extending the layout into the rest of the basement I probably won't ever install this connection. The two other parallel dashed red line sections are to call out the lift out/drop down sections.
Unfortunately, given the shape of the area I ended up having my most complicated trackwork on the drop down section itself. Oy. Couldn't be helped. Anyway, I will stop back later today to try to address some other items that were raised.
Track Diagram by The Milwaukee Road Warrior, on Flickr
Here are the basic dimensions of the space:
Layout Dimensions by The Milwaukee Road Warrior, on Flickr
Wow!
Those two lift sections look problematic based upon their size, location, and track work. How and where do you enter the inside opening of the layout? Do you use the door location?
One other question. Are you able to run trains at this time or is running awaiting completion of the wiring?
Hey Andy, I feel your frustration, and it's OK to feel frustrated and overwhelmed, but don't give up. There are a multitude of seasoned veterans on this forum who have chimed in and offered good, solid advice and suggestions. Just take it one section at a time
richhotrain Given the size of your layout, which is very nice by the way, you might consider adding a 5 amp booster, using the Power Cab as a walk around throttle. Also, it would make good sense to wire all three ends of every turnout. Rich
I have wondered about the need for a booster for a while now. I guess I will see what kind of feedback I get here. I do have a separate, dedicated 15amp circuit for the layout, and another 15amp circuit that I plan to use for wall warts for lights and such: there's hardly anything else on that circuit.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL You layout looks be on the borderline in terms of sze for mutiple power disticts/curcuit breakers. How many trains do you plan to run at the same time? How many locomotives do have or plan to have? Have you considered cutoff switches on locomotive storage tracks so those locos don't sit and "idle" with the sound on the whole time. Sheldon
I don't know what I will end up with for locomotives but I'm planning for about a dozen, of which, only 2 or 3 tops will ever be running at the same time. Probably just me and one of the kids running one each. A road freight and a switcher.
Cut off switches sound like a great idea ... like numerous things that I would have to research how to do. I'm kind of waiting to see what kind of feedback I get here.
richhotrain Wow! Those two lift sections look problematic based upon their size, location, and track work. How and where do you enter the inside opening of the layout? Do you use the door location? One other question. Are you able to run trains at this time or is running awaiting completion of the wiring? Rich
#1. Yes, I am also concerned about the trackwork on the drop down section, which I use to get into the layout. After reading so many comments about people building duck-unders and regretting it as they age, I bit the bullet and designed a hinged piece for the entrance. If I did it over I would design it different but oh well. It works, but I know I do not yet have the bulletproof trackwork needed in that area. It's going to take some finesse to get everything to line up on all the curves. I fully expect some major work needed to tweek things. The gray road actually covers the gap in the drop section and you can see that the track is not secured there yet. I have to figure out how to secure the flex on the curves crossing that painted hardboard road. Another battle for another time.
I still have my old Tech II dc transformer and all of the locos on the layout in the pictures are old Athearn BB, so I've run those over most of the layout so far - except the drop down section.
#2. The door location is access to the breaker box so I do need to access it from time to time for various electrical things.
#3. I'm not able to run DCC right now - I just unboxed the Powercab a few days ago and nothing is wired. Right after Christmas I started drilling small holes for the feeders in the station area based on the need to power all legs of the switches. I've had the 14awg buss wire for over a year, along with the 22awg feeders provided in the kit I bought, which was the impetus for me to question if I needed longer feeders and to investigate what Midwest Model Railroad did with their wiring when I was there.
Obviously, I'm hesitant at the moment to start any wiring if it turns out I need a booster and need to break up the layout into two or more blocks with circuit breakers. Everything I've read and seen so far says it's much harder to add things like that after the fact than to just plan for it up front. No surprise there.
I'm sort of in a limbo where I don't yet know what I don't know.
I've managed to power thru (no pun intended) all of the other aspects of the modeling so far without too much trouble, and I've enjoyed it. I built and painted everything myself so far, but the wiring is probably a case analysis paralysis - or, as close to it as I've gotten so far.
I often think, I must be making this too hard.
Then I read or see something re: electrical from a modeler I respect and think 'I should probably do that.' *added to the ever-growing list*
I think many moons ago I had a thread here about a "kill switch" for a layout, sort of along the lines of Sheldon's comment above. Obviously I was waaaaay ahead of myself there.
Andy, I have been studying your photos and diagrams. Here are some thoughts and comments.
1. I count six tracks traversing that drop down section. That could prove to be the Achilles heel of your layout. Regarding duckunders, I had one crossing an aisle on my last layout. It was actually designed to be a lift out section, but I often used it as a duckunder because I was always needing to reach one end or the other of the layout.
On my current layout, I designed it to eliminate duckunders and lift outs and drop downs. Unforunately, I have one remote area that requires a pop up hole, and that is not fun because I occasionally need access to fix derailments. Of course, it is the place on my layout where derailments occur.
You might be better off to start out with a duckunder if your body will permit it. I presume that most of your operations take place inside the layout? So, once inside, you can remain there for a reasonable period of time.
2. My only comment on the breaker box is to hope for your sake that you rarely need access. My layout is a basemen layout, but I vowed to build it far away from the breaker box as well as the utilities such as the furnace and water heater.
3. I see that your bus wire is black and red. That is excellent for identification purposes. Regarding a booster, I only suggested that if you want to run a lot of locomotives or create power districts with circuit breakers since the Power Cab is only 2 amps. A 5 amp booster would useful with lots of locos and/or circuit breaker controlled power districts. Your Power Cab could then become your walk around throttle.
If you added a booster, you could place it mid-way on your layout and split the bus wires to run left and right. In fact, using Y-butt splices each side, left and right, could be further divided into two parallel buses, one against the wall and one against the open area of the layout, permitting shorter feeders.