Thanks for the answers guys! -Douglas
Hello All,
I am glad you have found a way to continue with this great hobby to your satisfaction- -whatever that solution entails.
Just Wanna PlayI'm hearing a lot from folks using DCC. I've not heard from any folks using Bluetooth and only one using dead rail.
As you have observed...
Just Wanna Play...Bluetooth control systems seemed to be bleeding edge technology. BlueRail components seemed to have potential, if I could find them. Bachmann's E-Z App, however, looked more available and less likely to go bust.
As I intonated in my post, Bachmann has developed technologies that- -with all the greatest of intentions- -have been limited in their application and expansion beyond a niche community.
I hope this is not the case for you and others who embrace the E-Z App system.
If you are inquiring about a specific, proprietary, technology why not go to the source?
Not to dissuade you from participating in these forums- -all perspectives of model railroading benefits us all- -but your inquiry is selective in its scope.
Bachmann has their own forums, of which I am a member.
Perhaps your queries would be better understood there, along with a better sense of community.
As a retired electrician from the entertainment industry, a rudimentary form of DCC lighting control is what I learned and am most comfortable with.
DC in lighting control was cumbersome although perceived as "simpler."
My intention is not to detract from your success.
I hope you connect with like-minded users, as you have expressed.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
From the original post...
"The purpose of this post? To see if there are others out there who see Bluetooth and dead rail systems as desirable alternatives to DCC, and maybe learn how they might be emerging in the model railroading market."
I'm hearing a lot from folks using DCC. I've not heard from any folks using Bluetooth and only one using dead rail.
And I fully understand that folks who have mastered DCC aren't going to abandon it. Too much time and money invested. No need to hear more on that subject.
I'd like to hear from folks who are using Bluetooth systems -- Bluerail, E-Z App, or any other. Especially if they are operating them as dead rail systems, or at least keep alive systems.
It would also be great to hear from manufacturers who are making or developing Bluetooth systems. Get some indication that Bluetooth has a future in model railroading.
PM Railfan tstage I don't know where you got your information from, Shane. The NCE Power Cab is also a starter DCC system with 2A of power. The Digitrax Zephyr is slightly more @ 2.5A. (The newer Zephyr Xtra has 3A) The Bachmann E-Z Command has only 1A with nowhere near the capabilities of the Power Cab or Zephyr. And the NCE PH Pro @ 5A would be just as at home on a small layout as the Power Cab. Tom Tom) As you know Im not DCC, but those stats have me wondering.... That doesnt seem like hardly any power (under 3amps that is). So, a couple of older locos lashed up (you know the high draw motors compared to todays) it would seem might burn up a DCC power unit. Does this happen? (prolly not - I would presume they are circuit protected, but....) For someone wanting to run older models that are just starting out in DCC, should they not get a higher power rated supply to begin with instead of a lower powered 'starter system'? Curiosity is killing my cat, Douglas
tstage I don't know where you got your information from, Shane. The NCE Power Cab is also a starter DCC system with 2A of power. The Digitrax Zephyr is slightly more @ 2.5A. (The newer Zephyr Xtra has 3A) The Bachmann E-Z Command has only 1A with nowhere near the capabilities of the Power Cab or Zephyr. And the NCE PH Pro @ 5A would be just as at home on a small layout as the Power Cab. Tom
I don't know where you got your information from, Shane. The NCE Power Cab is also a starter DCC system with 2A of power. The Digitrax Zephyr is slightly more @ 2.5A. (The newer Zephyr Xtra has 3A) The Bachmann E-Z Command has only 1A with nowhere near the capabilities of the Power Cab or Zephyr. And the NCE PH Pro @ 5A would be just as at home on a small layout as the Power Cab.
Tom
Tom) As you know Im not DCC, but those stats have me wondering.... That doesnt seem like hardly any power (under 3amps that is).
So, a couple of older locos lashed up (you know the high draw motors compared to todays) it would seem might burn up a DCC power unit. Does this happen? (prolly not - I would presume they are circuit protected, but....)
For someone wanting to run older models that are just starting out in DCC, should they not get a higher power rated supply to begin with instead of a lower powered 'starter system'?
Curiosity is killing my cat,
Douglas
Hi Douglas,
I have some older brass from the 70s but they all have can motors - i.e. either as-built or replaced by me. My Power Cab has a built-in amp meter and the motors generally draw < than 0.5A and often 0.25A or <. That should allow me to safely operating 4 locomotives (or 2 sets of MU'd locomotives) simultaneously. (I never operated more than two locomotives at one time so that's never been an issue for me.) To allow a buffer, however, if you do have older locomotives that draw higher amperage, it would probably be wise to purchase a 5A DCC system.
And, you are correct in your presumption. In the event that the max amperage is reached or exceeded through a spike or short, DCC systems are designed with circuit protection to shut down temporarily then boot back up.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
AEP528 ATLANTIC CENTRAL But you are a better man than me if you can "operate" two trains at once with ANY contol system, on ANY size layout. It's pretty easy using DCC throttles with dual controls. But I suspect you know that and are conveniently leaving it our of your arguments, as usual. ATLANTIC CENTRAL Decoders take the the AC track power of DCC and rectify it into DC DCC does not have AC track power. But I suspect you know that and are conveniently leaving it our of your arguments, as usual.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But you are a better man than me if you can "operate" two trains at once with ANY contol system, on ANY size layout.
It's pretty easy using DCC throttles with dual controls. But I suspect you know that and are conveniently leaving it our of your arguments, as usual.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Decoders take the the AC track power of DCC and rectify it into DC
DCC does not have AC track power. But I suspect you know that and are conveniently leaving it our of your arguments, as usual.
I have hundreds of hours running trains on DCC, and I never got comfortable enough to run two trains at once. Different strokes for different folks.
Well yes, I know what kind of complex waveform the DCC power is, but for the purpose of answering Doug's question, making it clear that it is not DC was information enough.
It just bugs you that I have used DCC and know a fair amount about it, but don't choose to use it on my own layout. And that I suggest that different layouts may be served by different choices. Give it a rest already. Seems to me a number of your snarky comments toward me have been deleted in other threads, that should tell you something.
But its ok, you likely will not hear from me for another week or two.
Sheldon
There is a Zero 1 on sale right now from France on E-bay $75 plus shipping, buy it now.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut you are a better man than me if you can "operate" two trains at once with ANY contol system, on ANY size layout.
ATLANTIC CENTRALDecoders take the the AC track power of DCC and rectify it into DC
Just Wanna Play Model trains have been an interest of mine since the 1960's, although slotcars -- HO and 1/32nd -- have been my real passion. Activity in all of the above has been sporadic over the years, but now that I am retired I have been devoting much more time to my hobbies. I got interested in digital control for HO model railroads back in the 1980's. While visiting England I was impressed by some Hornby locomotives and bought them just to enjoy as static models. Not long after my wife convinced me to create a loop around our Christmas tree. Things progressed from there. I built a 9 x 5 foot permanent layout using Hornby track. Four loops, two at ground level, two elevated. Eventually I learned about Hornby's original digital control system, called 'Zero-1'. It pre-dated DCC by maybe a decade. I purchased and set up a system with four throttles and Zero-1 boards in all of my locomotives -- about a dozen. Zero-1 was very basic, but did everything I really wanted to do. I could control any locomotive, forward and reverse. Speed and momentum. I was perfectly happy with it. I didn't need or want more. I was able to run my Zero-1 system for decades, maintaining it with parts largely purchased new-old-stock online. But eventually I had to replace the main control box and I couldn't find one. A very sad day. I had to move on. So I did my homework and decided my best option -- well, pretty much my only option -- was to upgrade to a DCC system. I chose to buy an NCE setup. Invested quite a bit of money in it. Now I should mention that I am a mechanical engineer, and pretty comfortable with computers and programming. But I wouldn't consider myself a computer geek. I did not take to DCC. It seemed overly complex and difficult to use. All that DCC hardware, my layout and my trains got disused. There was too much work involved to get me back to the point where I could just play with my trains. I was disappointed and unhappy. Just a few weeks ago I learned that a new control protocol was being developed. From what I could see Bluetooth offered an end-run around that whole DCC mess. And the fact that the track would only be used to supply power separated contact issues from train control. A 'keep alive' add-on would make my locomotives resistant to both power and control glitches. Trouble was, Bluetooth control systems seemed to be bleeding edge technology. BlueRail components seemed to have potential, if I could find them. Bachmann's E-Z App, however, looked more available and less likely to go bust. So I bought one of their Bluetooth locos and tried it out. Beauty. It worked great from my iPhone and my iPad. Even had some sound features. So I took the next step, bought an E-Z App board, and installed it in one of my Hornby locomotives. That worked too. So now I am bringing my layout back to life and thinking about refitting all of my locos with E-Z App boards. I have sold all my NCE equipment. At least I got some of my investment back. My history will tell you I am perfectly comfortable installing and maintaining a control system that is anything but mainstream. Also that I only want the most basic control. The one added feature I am looking at is setting up a dead rail system. Between Bluetooth and dead rail I'd expect to have as bullet-proof a system as can be had with current technology. I have a bit of trepedation though. While I see Bluetooth control as having a future in model railroading I don't know how long E-Z App will survive. It doesn't seem to be getting much (forgive the expression) traction. I have similar concerns about Bluerail. Could be that an E-Z App based system, if I can source and install the boards, will keep me going for another couple of decades, which given my age, would be enough. Could also be that some other Bluetooth system will gain acceptance and make my E-Z App system obsolete. In the end, all I want to do is play with my trains. It should be simple, but it ain't. The purpose of this post? To see if there are others out there who see Bluetooth and dead rail systems as desirable alternatives to DCC, and maybe learn how they might be emerging in the model railroading market. Ed Bianchi
Model trains have been an interest of mine since the 1960's, although slotcars -- HO and 1/32nd -- have been my real passion. Activity in all of the above has been sporadic over the years, but now that I am retired I have been devoting much more time to my hobbies.
I got interested in digital control for HO model railroads back in the 1980's.
While visiting England I was impressed by some Hornby locomotives and bought them just to enjoy as static models. Not long after my wife convinced me to create a loop around our Christmas tree. Things progressed from there.
I built a 9 x 5 foot permanent layout using Hornby track. Four loops, two at ground level, two elevated.
Eventually I learned about Hornby's original digital control system, called 'Zero-1'. It pre-dated DCC by maybe a decade. I purchased and set up a system with four throttles and Zero-1 boards in all of my locomotives -- about a dozen.
Zero-1 was very basic, but did everything I really wanted to do. I could control any locomotive, forward and reverse. Speed and momentum. I was perfectly happy with it. I didn't need or want more.
I was able to run my Zero-1 system for decades, maintaining it with parts largely purchased new-old-stock online. But eventually I had to replace the main control box and I couldn't find one. A very sad day. I had to move on.
So I did my homework and decided my best option -- well, pretty much my only option -- was to upgrade to a DCC system. I chose to buy an NCE setup. Invested quite a bit of money in it.
Now I should mention that I am a mechanical engineer, and pretty comfortable with computers and programming. But I wouldn't consider myself a computer geek. I did not take to DCC. It seemed overly complex and difficult to use. All that DCC hardware, my layout and my trains got disused. There was too much work involved to get me back to the point where I could just play with my trains. I was disappointed and unhappy.
Just a few weeks ago I learned that a new control protocol was being developed. From what I could see Bluetooth offered an end-run around that whole DCC mess. And the fact that the track would only be used to supply power separated contact issues from train control. A 'keep alive' add-on would make my locomotives resistant to both power and control glitches.
Trouble was, Bluetooth control systems seemed to be bleeding edge technology. BlueRail components seemed to have potential, if I could find them. Bachmann's E-Z App, however, looked more available and less likely to go bust. So I bought one of their Bluetooth locos and tried it out.
Beauty. It worked great from my iPhone and my iPad. Even had some sound features. So I took the next step, bought an E-Z App board, and installed it in one of my Hornby locomotives. That worked too.
So now I am bringing my layout back to life and thinking about refitting all of my locos with E-Z App boards.
I have sold all my NCE equipment. At least I got some of my investment back.
My history will tell you I am perfectly comfortable installing and maintaining a control system that is anything but mainstream. Also that I only want the most basic control.
The one added feature I am looking at is setting up a dead rail system. Between Bluetooth and dead rail I'd expect to have as bullet-proof a system as can be had with current technology.
I have a bit of trepedation though. While I see Bluetooth control as having a future in model railroading I don't know how long E-Z App will survive. It doesn't seem to be getting much (forgive the expression) traction. I have similar concerns about Bluerail.
Could be that an E-Z App based system, if I can source and install the boards, will keep me going for another couple of decades, which given my age, would be enough. Could also be that some other Bluetooth system will gain acceptance and make my E-Z App system obsolete.
In the end, all I want to do is play with my trains. It should be simple, but it ain't.
The purpose of this post? To see if there are others out there who see Bluetooth and dead rail systems as desirable alternatives to DCC, and maybe learn how they might be emerging in the model railroading market.
Ed Bianchi
Ed, what you fail to realize is most people in this hobby are not going to change control systems once they invest in a particular system/technology.
This is why these other systems are stalled growth wise.
The hobby remains about 60-65% DCC and most of the rest still DC.
jjdamnit Hello All, NVSRR NCE is a larger club and layout system not suited for what you have. Not surprised by your results. What you could have used is something like digitrax zephyr or bachmann easy command. Simple dcc systems more for beginners and small layouts like yours. I don't understand the presumption that NCE is unsuitable for smaller pikes. My HO pike is a 4'x8' with no way to expand due to the dictates of "She Who Must Be Obyed." I began with DC block wiring. From my personal experience- -it was a nightmare trying to run two trains with block control and two (2) cabs. As has been said... "It was like trying to play the piano with boxing gloves." The cost of wiring and control for 16 DC blocks would have paid for an entry-level DCC system. Next, I switched to DCC using the Bachmann Dynamis DCC system. I expanded it to the limits of its capabilities with multiple antennae and a 5-Amp booster. Soon I realized that this system was a dead-end, with its limitations. The Dynamis system was "better" than DC- -but not the solution I was seeking. I run several diesel consists of three (3) and four (4) units MUed, simultaneously. While researching DCC systems I found that NCE fit my needs better than other manufacturers. The way NCE handles consists was the determining factor. I chose the NCE PowerPro 5-Amp wireless system. I also added an AR10 reversing unit with circuit breaker protection for the wye, along with four (4) EB1s to create a total of five (5) power districts. A DCC Concepts Meter was added inline to monitor Amperage and Voltage from the booster/command station to the power districts. Then I added a standalone programming track for my workbench with JMRI DecoderPro and a Digitrax PR3 running from my Mac. Recently, I was able to link my iPad; through JMRI DecoderPro, along with an NCE USB Interface for Power Cab, and the WiThrottle App to control two (2) trains simultaneously. There are many DCC systems available to the North American market that can be as basic as you need to ultimately expandable for large pikes. After the initial learning curve I can now just... Just Wanna Play ...play with my trains. Hope this helps.
NVSRR NCE is a larger club and layout system not suited for what you have. Not surprised by your results. What you could have used is something like digitrax zephyr or bachmann easy command. Simple dcc systems more for beginners and small layouts like yours.
I don't understand the presumption that NCE is unsuitable for smaller pikes.
My HO pike is a 4'x8' with no way to expand due to the dictates of "She Who Must Be Obyed."
I began with DC block wiring.
From my personal experience- -it was a nightmare trying to run two trains with block control and two (2) cabs.
As has been said...
"It was like trying to play the piano with boxing gloves."
The cost of wiring and control for 16 DC blocks would have paid for an entry-level DCC system.
Next, I switched to DCC using the Bachmann Dynamis DCC system.
I expanded it to the limits of its capabilities with multiple antennae and a 5-Amp booster.
Soon I realized that this system was a dead-end, with its limitations.
The Dynamis system was "better" than DC- -but not the solution I was seeking.
I run several diesel consists of three (3) and four (4) units MUed, simultaneously.
While researching DCC systems I found that NCE fit my needs better than other manufacturers.
The way NCE handles consists was the determining factor.
I chose the NCE PowerPro 5-Amp wireless system.
I also added an AR10 reversing unit with circuit breaker protection for the wye, along with four (4) EB1s to create a total of five (5) power districts.
A DCC Concepts Meter was added inline to monitor Amperage and Voltage from the booster/command station to the power districts.
Then I added a standalone programming track for my workbench with JMRI DecoderPro and a Digitrax PR3 running from my Mac.
Recently, I was able to link my iPad; through JMRI DecoderPro, along with an NCE USB Interface for Power Cab, and the WiThrottle App to control two (2) trains simultaneously.
There are many DCC systems available to the North American market that can be as basic as you need to ultimately expandable for large pikes.
After the initial learning curve I can now just...
Just Wanna Play ...play with my trains.
This is not a dig at DCC, or any of the good reasons to use it.
But you are a better man than me if you can "operate" two trains at once with ANY contol system, on ANY size layout.
I will be "running" 5 trains at once on my new DC powered layout - in display mode on dedicated loops of track - but in 56 years in this hobby I have never been able to "operate" more than one train at a time.
DC block control was NEVER intended to allow (or require) ONE person to run two trains at once by constantly re-assigning blocks to different throttles while also managing speed and aligning turnout routes.
Since that was never the intention, it is a straw man argument against DC block control.
DC block control was intended to do just what those with larger layouts do with DCC, allow multiple operators to run separately controlled trains on the same route of track, which it can do just fine if properly designed and built.
And I still think DCC is the best choice for most people.
But you will never see me controling a model train with a smart phone, or any other touch screen device.
While a larger power supply might be desirable with lots of MU'd older locos, what is more important is to use decoders with suitable power handling capacity for those older motors.
Many decoders are only rated in the 1 amp range and are not suitable for old open frame motors.
Decoders take the the AC track power of DCC and rectify it into DC and then control the speed with Full Voltage Pulse Width Modulation, known as PWM, not by varying the voltage.
PWM is a great way to control DC motors, The Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless DC throttle uses it.
But it can cause a motor, especially older ones, to draw a little extra current, adding to the fact that DCC decoders need to have suitable capacity for the motor.
Nah, my experiences with E-Z App and NCE DCC were soooooooo different!
When I received my E-Z App loco I put it on my track and opened the Bachmann app on my iPhone. The app saw the loco automatically. I opened the control screen and moved the throttle slider. And the locomotive started to run. I stopped the loco, hit the reverse button, and moved the throttle slider again. The loco ran backwards.
BANG! I had achieved everything I wanted in about a minute and a half. Everything that my Zero-1 system had given me all those years ago. Absolutely dirt simple.
I won't go into all the grief I had trying to get my NCE DCC system to play nice. I simply confirmed all the frustrations folks like me have with it.
I'm done with DCC. I sold all my NCE hardware -- at a loss -- and I'm glad to be shut of it.
Will I be able to refit all my locos with E-Z App? Is there a better, cheaper, Bluetooth system out there or on the horizon that will force E-Z App into obsolesence? I wish I knew. But in the meantime... Hurray! I get to play with my trains!
NVSRRNCE is a larger club and layout system not suited for what you have. Not surprised by your results. What you could have used is something like digitrax zephyr or bachmann easy command. Simple dcc systems more for beginners and small layouts like yours.
Just Wanna Play...play with my trains.
Just Wanna PlaySo I did my homework and decided my best option -- well, pretty much my only option -- was to upgrade to a DCC system. I chose to buy an NCE setup. Invested quite a bit of money in it. Now I should mention that I am a mechanical engineer, and pretty comfortable with computers and programming. But I wouldn't consider myself a computer geek. I did not take to DCC. It seemed overly complex and difficult to use. All that DCC hardware, my layout and my trains got disused. There was too much work involved to get me back to the point where I could just play with my trains. I was disappointed and unhappy.
DCC can be as simple or as complex as you want it to be, Ed. What NCE system did you investe in for a 5 x 9 layout? Did you go wireless?
I have an NCE Power Cab and find it very intuitive to use. And it worked just fine for my previous 4 x 8 layout. I even have the Smart Booster to raise the amperage to 5A, as well as allow me to disconnect my Power Cab for walkaround.
NVSRRNCE is a larger club and layout system not suited for what you have. Not surprised by your results.
Hornsby is a proprietary type company. They like you using thier equipment for thier locomotives.
NCE is a larger club and layout system not suited for what you have. Not surprised by your results. What you could have used is something like digitrax zephyr or bachmann easy command. Simple dcc systems more for beginners and small layouts like yours. Hornsby has an equivalent from what I have heard.
blue Tooth will probably catch on with age and be excepted as an age group thing. Blue tooth can be just as complicated to set up a dcc system with. Just adds extra layers with apps and such. Will be slow to gain commonality. If it actually lasts.
deadrail is really the domain of large scale where it appeared some 20 years ago. It works well there because the batteries are bigger, and the locos can pull that weight easily along with roll bearing axles and such. Locos are drastically heavier I. Weight too. All my large scale is dead rail except for a few pieces. Smaller scales not so well adaptable because of small batteries and current demand. that just the loco. Add I. Train weight sound, and grades and curves to battery life. on small switching g layouts it does well to illuminate the complication of wires and electrical breaks. Until. Atteries get better, dead rail on a smaller layout not all that great or useful.
shane
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
EZ-Ap and DCC are kinda two versions of the same thing. In the EZ-Ap, the engines gets constant power from the rails, then your phone sends signals via wi-fi to the engine to control it. In DCC, the engine gets constant power from the rails, and your controller sends signals via the track to control the engine. Don't know that one is really more complex than the other? Plus with DCC any decoder will work with any system, it's not proprietary like Zero 1 was, or EZ-Ap.