Hello All,
jjdamnitI didn't find any other decoder manufacturers that offer what you are looking for.
gmpullman thanks for the info on Train Control Systems (TCS) and ESU and their versions!
gmpullmanDynamic brakes can be fun and add another dimension to operating but it does require operator attention
According to Soundtraxx, once setup, this sound function happens automatically because the setup process defines the parameters of CV 32, 503, 504, and 512, along with the "usual suspects" of CV 3 & 4.
As far as speed control, yes, the engineer has to monitor this, just like in prototypical situations.
But, the sound functions are "automatic."
caldreamerI do not use sound decoders, so the sound effects are not relavent at his time. Maybe in the future I will get a sound decoder.
OK...
gmpullmanIt seems to me this thread is getting muddied by mention of several unrelated decoder functions.
The OP has focused on CVs...
caldreamerThe CV's for acceleration and deceleration are: CV 3 (0) The rate of Acceleration CV 4 (0) The rate of Deceleration CV 23 (0) Rate of Acceleration added to CV3 when in an Advanced Consist CV 24 (0) Rate of Deceleration added to CV4 when in an Advanced Consist
These CVs seem to have no relationship to Dynamic Digital Exhaust, but the OP and other contributors to this thread have focused on these.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
DDE and other types of "load detection" are simply a feedback function of the BEMF signal from the motor that is then used to tell the decoder's sound function to increase or decrease the sound of the "working" locomotive. It is not related to momentum nor dynamic brakes. DDE is also used to increase the "chuff" intensity where dynamic brakes wouldn't have any relationship to steam.
The OP mentions he likes TCS decoders so here is one of their explanations of the use.
I haven't messed with dynamics on any of my decoders as it is not a function I feel is that important to me. Most of the eastern roads I model don't even use dynamic brakes especially in the first-generation diesels I mostly have. Additionally I don't want to devote too many various function buttons to braking. Decoder manufacturers seem to be getting bogged down with independent, automatic and dynamic brake functions crowding an already busy function list.
It seems to me this thread is getting muddied by mention of several unrelated decoder functions.
Dynamic brakes can be fun and add another dimension to operating but it does require operator attention.
ESU has their version of dynamics and here is a look at the Tsunami2 dynamic brake setup.
Good Luck, Ed
In the National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) magazine, November 2022 issue; pg. 46-51, there is a review of the Soundtraxx Blunami decoder and the accompanying app.
On pages 50-51 it mentions Dynamic Digital Exhaust for both steam and diesel.
This is a function of the decoder and not the DCC system.
The article talks about how to set up this function. It involves CVs 32, 503, 504, and 512, along with the "usual suspects" of CV 3 & 4.
This function is available on the TSU-2200 at the MSRP of $132.95, along with other decoders in the TSU series.
I didn't find any other decoder manufacturers that offer what you are looking for.
The CV's for acceleration and deceleration are:
CV 3 (0) The rate of AccelerationCV 4 (0) The rate of DecelerationCV 23 (0) Rate of Acceleration added to CV3 when in an Advanced ConsistCV 24 (0) Rate of Deceleration added to CV4 when in an Advanced Consist
caldreamer so the sound effects are not relavent at his time
caldreamerAir and independent braking can be accomplished using the throttle to simulate the amount of air and/or independent braking is being applied.
are there separate function keys for dynamic and other braking?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I do not use sound decoders, so the sound effects are not relavent at his time. Maybe in the future I will get a sound decoder.
caldreamer(as pictured in the above diagram)
What diagram?
caldreamerTCS Comprehnsive Progamming shows the following the simulate variable braking.
That would be specific to TCS decoders. The OP is asking about Digitrax DCC system(s).
Great info on the CVs for TSC decoders. But, that only covers half of the OPs inquiry.
What about the accompanying sound effects of the dynamic braking?
TCS Comprehnsive Progamming shows the following the simulate variable braking. You use 5 CV's. 128 and 127 are the highest setting and will slow the train most. Use the CV126 as the start and CV125 for the end of level two slowing and CV 125 and CV4 the least braking (slowing of the train). The description of using variable momentum is as follows:
Variable Momentum Explained:For the most advanced users sometimes simple Acceleration and Deceleration controls (momentum) can’t quite produce the precisely prototypical operation they are looking for. In such cases variable momentum can be used to design precise and independently adjustable Acceleration and Deceleration (variable momentum). For most users this level of refined control will be far more precise than needed, but for modelers trying to squeeze every bit of real world detail into their trains we provide variable momentum.
Variable Momentum Usage and Adjustment:Variable uses five CV’s for Acceleration and five CV’s for deceleration (as pictured in the above diagram). Both Accel and Decel. have three different rates of speed change as well as two points used to identify when to move from one rate to the next. As you can see above Acceleration and Deceleration have Rates 1, 2, and 3, and transition points be- tween 1 and 2, and 2 and 3. Implementing Variable Momentum is as simple as programming values between 0-255 into all of the CV’s outlined above. To achieve the ideal curve a bit of trial and error and adjustment will be required. Typically the rate starting and ending points are values between 80-150 and the rate values tend to fall somewhere between 10-90 though again the range of values are much larger than that and will require a certain amount of tweaking.
dehusman It can be used anytime the train is moving faster than the minium speed for the dynamic brakes and the engineer wants to slow down.
Sure, but better take into account your grades unless you want a really nasty run-in or run-out.
Oh, and take into account train makeup. How good your dynamics are. Is your rail dry or wet?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
If we had model locomotives that would actually roll freely down a grade we could have functioning dynamic braking that worked just like the prototype.
Some brass steam locos had a coasting gearbox that automatically went into a neutral position when power was shut off. The idea was that they would coast to a stop, which worked on level track but could cause runaways on a grade.
Maybe something like that to disconnect the gears that are hard to drive in reverse would allow a train to coast downhill and a tiny motor mounted directly on an axle without gearing could provide braking.
gregc(D)oes it also make sense to assume that if the BEMF > DCC speed, that the load is decreasing possibly by going downhill, that dynamic braking is occurring?
Yes, the action of prototypical dynamic braking is happening in DCC, but at an imperceptible level with BEMF.
From what I understand- -that's the purpose of BEMF in DCC- -according to Digitrax.
However, the OP seems to be wanting the sound of Dynamic Braking along with a noticeable, possibly controllable, effect of slowing by a function button on the throttle.
As I said before, it seems ironic that a similar set of functions can be enabled with a steam sound decoder but not with diesel.
jjdamnitAt one point it says that Back EMF is like cruise control on an automobile and that its function is to manage the speed of the locomotive motor to provide a consistent speed relative to the throttle setting. Which seems to be the opposite of what the OP is asking.
Which seems to be the opposite of what the OP is asking.
with feedback control, my understanding is the motor voltage is based on the difference between the DCC speed setting sent to the decoder and the BEMF which indicates the actual speed of the motor. the voltage to the motor is increased if the BEMF is < DCC speed, decreased if >
it makes sense that increasing the voltage based on this causes the chuffs or generator sound level to increase in intensity, indicative of the motor under greater load.
does it also make sense to assume that if the BEMF > DCC speed, that the load is decreasing possibly by going downhill, that dynamic braking is occurring?
jeffhergertGE's, now Wabtec, Trip Optimizer system is notorious for going into dynamics when going uphill.
Kind of reminds me of the 737 MAX. Pilot says nose up — software says nose down... oh, look out, here comes the ground.
Let's fill the highways with autonomous cars while we're at it.
What could go wrong?
Regards, Ed
dehusman Also the train doesn't have to be going down hill, although that is commonly when it's used. It can be used anytime the train is moving faster than the minium speed for the dynamic brakes and the engineer wants to slow down.
Also the train doesn't have to be going down hill, although that is commonly when it's used. It can be used anytime the train is moving faster than the minium speed for the dynamic brakes and the engineer wants to slow down.
Or when the Energy Management Systems decide it needs to be in dynamics going up hill.
GE's, now Wabtec, Trip Optimizer system is notorious for going into dynamics when going uphill.
Jeff
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
During the application of dynamic brakes the engine speeds up to provide power to the traction motor blowers and the fan which provides air flow for cooling.
The throttle can also be used to modulate the amount of braking by changing the amount of power delivered to the traction motors for that purpose. More power, more braking.
While I understand what the OP is asking for I don't believe it is available as a single function in DCC--for diesels.
Under dynamic braking in The Digitrax Big Book Of DCC; pg. 143, it only compares the Back EMF of a decoder to the prototypical practice of dynamic braking.
It talks about how Back EMF relates to motor speed stabilization and not as a braking control function.
At one point it says that Back EMF is like cruise control on an automobile and that its function is to manage the speed of the locomotive motor to provide a consistent speed relative to the throttle setting.
Steam sound decoders have chuff synchronization and load compensation sound effects.
I don't know if these could be "translated" to dynamic braking in diesel sound decoders.
My best suggestion would be to map the dynamic braking sound to a single function button and then manually manipulate the throttle to slow the engine(s) as they descend.
Dynamic braking is used when the engine and train are going downhill. The wheels of the engine are turning because the engine is being pulled downhill by gravity. In dynamic braking the turning wheels turn the electric motors in the trucks, changing them from using electricity to generating electricity. This causes the wheels to not turn as freely as it would if it were just coasting, and this slows the locomotive down. It uses little fuel during dynamic braking, since the diesel motor only needs enough fuel to keep turning at idle or a very low level until it's needed again to pull the train on flat or uphill track.
On electric locomotives, it's called regenerative braking, because an engine going downhill can feed the electricity it's creating back into the overhead wire, which can then be used by other engines.
Power braking or stretch braking is having the engine still pulling while applying the train brakes, to keep the slack stretched in the train.
It provides a very smooth stop with little or no slack, at the cost of fuel consumption. It was the default method of braking before dynamic brakes and is used for passenger trains, because it provides such a smooth stop.
jeffhergertIn dynamic braking the diesel engine is operating about equal to notch one in power. Stretch or power braking is done with the throttle in power, and either not reducing or only slightly reducing the throttle.
thanks for trying, but don't know what this trying to say?
my understanding of motor braking is that the motor is connected to a load that sinks current instead of a generator that sources current. it make sense that the load can be controlled with the notch with the generator idle.
can't imagine how both a load and generator can be connected to motor at the same time (unless generator power is reversed)
jeffhergertIt burns more fuel that way.
applying brakes while under power certainly would burn more fuel. why apply power while braking except to "drag" the train to a specific stopping point (e.g. passenger train)
706
In dynamic braking the diesel engine is operating about equal to notch one in power. Stretch or power braking is done with the throttle in power, and either not reducing or only slightly reducing the throttle. It burns more fuel that way.
The independent can be fully released and normally is when making a automatic brake application, except when stopping. This is to keep the locomotive, which will brake harder than the train, from ramming into the cars following it.
On modern AC engines, dynamics can be used all the way to a complete stop. (Depending on train and grade conditions.) On the older engines, dynamics would fade out below a certain speed.
The independent is also used when starting a train to control speed so the head end doesn't roll out and brake a knSpeed.
jeffhergertCurrent practice is to use the dynamics as much as possible to control speed for fuel conservation.
not sure why choice of brake affect fuel consumption
my understanding is the maximum brake force is 10% the weight of the car/loco.
this means air brakes affecting every car and the loco applies a braking force of 10% the weight of the train. independent or dynamic brakes which only affect the locos is only going to apply a brake force of 10% the weight of the locos
of course, air brakes will slow/stop a train (a loco with cars) much more quickly than just the brakes on the loco
my understanding is independent brakes which can be partially released (like car brakes) are needed to position a loco precisely such as under a water tower or coal bin, or when switching cars. not so sure about positioning passenger train at a station
my understanding is air brakes affect the braking in the loco. i can see how that would apply dynamic braking and any sound (fans)
not sure about the effectiveness of dynamic vs independent brakes when comign to a stop
gregc caldreamer Which CV's would you set to simulate dynamic braking? what would the difference be between dynamic, independent and air/auto brakes? wouldn't they all just result in a reduction in speed?
caldreamer Which CV's would you set to simulate dynamic braking?
what would the difference be between dynamic, independent and air/auto brakes?
wouldn't they all just result in a reduction in speed?
For a model, there really is no difference in operation. Unless, like someone has observed, you want to change the sound to simulate the dynamic's "whine" when in operation.
For models, dynamic and independent brake operations are the only two that act like the prototype. They both only apply to the locomotives and not the cars themselves. Both will cause the slack in the train to push or run into the locomotive. On the prototype improper use of both can, and has, caused derailments.
For the automatic brake on a model, it of course slows the train but not in the way the real thing does. On the prototype, the automatic acts on the cars. When applying the automatic brake, engineers are supposed to actuate or "bail off" the independent to keep it from applying.
Current practice is to use the dynamics as much as possible to control speed for fuel conservation. If dynamics aren't enough, then use of air in conjunction with dynos is favored. Power or stretch braking, where the locomotives are still pulling the train while the automatic is applied is allowed up to a point because there are times and locations where it's better for train handling.
I just have plain old DC, and don't use the momentum and brake option on one of my MRC throttles. For those that want to simulate the difference in brake systems by using the throttles that look like a prototype stand, I would suggest using the independent for braking only when moving light power or during yard switching. When handling a train, use the dynamics for minor slow downs and controlling speed when moving on the main line. For times when you need to stop or slow down faster, use the automatic brake.
Needless to say but I'm saying it anyway, if your single locomotive or lead locomotive in a consist isn't equipped with dynamics you can't use dynamics.
Maybe someone could develope individual DCC activated car brakes. Then you could simulate slowing the train by braking the individual cars instead of just the locomotive.
gregc caldreamer Which CV's would you set to simulate dynamic braking?
For model engines, the pressing the function button for dynamic brakes causes the sound decoder to make the continous whirring / moaning sound of the regenerative dynamic brakes being on. Some decoders also slow the speed of the engine during the time the dynamic brake noise is being heard, but for some it's just a sound with no affect on the speed.
If the decoder has a train brake, pressing that usually stops the engine and makes a brief 'brake squeal' sound just before the engine stops. TCS Wow-Sound decoders (which might be what the OP is using?) come with CV4 deceleration momentum set very high (like 90-something) so pressing the train brake slows the train down around 1/3. You have to press it several times to stop the engine, unless you reduce CV4 to around 30 or less.
I think what the OP wants to do is set the decoder up so when he activates the function button for the dynamic brake sound, the engine also slows down - and perhaps so the 'diesel rumble' sound goes down to the idle/neutral sound? Without knowing exactly what decoder model he's working with, it's not possible to give a definitive answer.
Digitrax decoders have a setting for momentum; that is to say, accelertion (CV-03) and deceleration (CV-04). I only know about the motion control, not sound. But there is a noticeable change in the rates of accel and decel when you adjust the values for those variables.
Once you get the visuals of train motion to approximately something you like, you might have to piddle with the sound settings on your decoders to complete the illusion.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
The difference is air brakes use the air in the trainline to apply the brakes, the independent brakes are the locomotive brakes and the dynamic brakes are the braking action created by turning the movement of the alternator to the brake grids to slow the train by creating resistance. All three slow the train. The ABTH (Air Brake & Train Handling Rules) state when the engineer is to use one or more of these to slow the train under particular circanstances. I would like to simulate dynamic braking. Looking at the TCS Comprehensive Programing Guide, it looks like CV's 125, 126 and 127 would allow me to set them for decending values and I can then program them to a function key and simulate dynamic braking. Air and independent braking can be accomplished using the throttle to simulate the amount of air and/or independent braking is being applied.
caldreamerWhich CV's would you set to simulate dynamic braking?
I prefer the TCS plug and play 4 function decoders over the digitrax decoders because I do not have the problem of the decoder not making contect with the chassis due to it being too thin. The only function that I use is F0 for lights.
caldreamer Which CV's would you set to simulate dynamic braking? I would like to press a function key for example F7, and have the correct CV's act like dynamic brakes and slow the train.
Which CV's would you set to simulate dynamic braking? I would like to press a function key for example F7, and have the correct CV's act like dynamic brakes and slow the train.