LastspikemikeNCE momentum button appears to be just a shortcut key to reset CV3 and CV4 instead of going to those CVs and entering the actual values required to make the desired changes.
Mike
BillwizI really love this forum. I have learned a lot thanks to some really knowledgable people (some of which we have lost recently). Unfortunately, there have been far too many posts which become battlegrounds and honestly, I have enough of that in the "real world" without having to see it in the model railroading world. To the OP, I hope you got your answer and stick around.
Bill, all very well said.
We have far too few new members sticking around.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
tstageYes, some members did read it and did take time to provide an explanation and insight to the OP about his DCC system. Unfortunately a few posts ended up wasting bandwith by denegrating a product that the writer themselves had no experience with. This has become an all-too-common theme for one particular poster. Tom
I really love this forum. I have learned a lot thanks to some really knowledgable people (some of which we have lost recently). Unfortunately, there have been far too many posts which become battlegrounds and honestly, I have enough of that in the "real world" without having to see it in the model railroading world.
To the OP, I hope you got your answer and stick around.
Yes, some members did read it and did take time to provide an explanation and insight to the OP about his DCC system. Unfortunately a few posts ended up wasting bandwith by denegrating a product that the writer themselves had no experience with. This has become an all-too-common theme for one particular poster.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Hello All,
Did anyone read the fourth post?
Martin4After continuing testing I found a few minutes ago that the momentum function is working. What is confusing is that no value appears when setting it up as if nothing was happening. You have to know that a level of momentum has been applied and remenber (SIC) the value. Or set up the momentum each time you want to be sure of applyint (SIC) it.
Seems like the OP solved the problem before forty more "suggestions" were posted.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
richhotrain What is most ironic about all of this is that the MRC Prodigy series also has an Emergency Stop button which operates similarly to NCE throttles and, at a glance, the MRC throttle gives an appearance of a knockoff of the NCE throttle. That said, the MRC throttle is bulkier than the NCE throttle, making the MRC throttle less desirable, ergonomically, than the NCE throttle, as attested to by other forum members in other threads. Rich
What is most ironic about all of this is that the MRC Prodigy series also has an Emergency Stop button which operates similarly to NCE throttles and, at a glance, the MRC throttle gives an appearance of a knockoff of the NCE throttle. That said, the MRC throttle is bulkier than the NCE throttle, making the MRC throttle less desirable, ergonomically, than the NCE throttle, as attested to by other forum members in other threads.
Rich
Alton Junction
LastspikemikeDigitrax uses the power on/off button which also isn't any kind of emergency button. Only MRC gets the ergonomics correct: press the red button once to stop the problem locomotive. Press and hold THE SAME BUTTON to kill power to the entire layout.
Actually, most Digitrax throttles do have an emergency stop button (the Zephyr and older UT throttles do not, but all DT and newer UT throttles do). The E-stop is better than using a decoder brake function. Braking works differently between different decoders, including as noted, using different function keys, and usually still involves some momentum, while the E-stop does not.
Most older Digitrax systems and throttles also have a system wide emergency stop feature. It's usually activated by double pressing the e-stop button (the double press could be configured to stop the two locos on that throttle or the entire layout so you could decide if you wanted an operator to have that control). The layout wide e-stop is acrtually better than shutting off layout power because it's easier on the loco's drivetrain and less likely to cause derailments. It also allows lighting and sound and anything else that may be track powered to continue. Digitrax used to even sell a stationary decoder that could be configured as a system wide e-stop with an external button press - you could have E-stop buttons setup at strategic locations through the layout all feeding back to the one decoder to allow a quick and easy e-stop from anywhere without even having a throttle handy.
Digitrax has moved away from the sytem wide e-stop, likely because some decoders did not respond to it. It uses a broadcast e-stop - primary address '0' is the broadcast address and all decoders are supposed to respond to it no matter what address or address range the decoder is currently using. Even though that spec is in the standards, not just the recommended practices, some deocders apparently did not implement it. In particular, I've seen several reports of MRC sound decoders not responding to it.
It's really unfortunate that the system wide e-stop can no longer be relied upon because of some decoders not following the spec.
gregcdo you have any experience with product developement?
No he does not. He just likes to hear himself go blah-blah-blah because it strokes his shallow ego and makes himself seem intelligent to his own perception. He looks down on engineers and project managers and has a history of posting insults to people in these professions.
He continuously posts with a tone of expertise in subjects where he has no knowledge or experience. All of this is obvious with a simple read of any of the content of one of his posts.
Copy and paste has become the source of much of his content.
I thought this was obvious to everyone. We have been putting up with this from LSM for way too long.
I wonder what his motivation is to become the Alpha-Male in the electric train forum? What does this say about the man?
Water Level RouteIf that's the limits of your understanding of the usefulness of DCC, perhaps DCC related conversations are something you should refrain from, as it doesn't really sound like you have much of a stake in DCC and it's capabilities, which is fine. Others feel otherwise and benefit from input from others who feel similarly.
Him replying to a DCC question is like me replying to a Track Planning question.
He should excuse himself from replying to all subjects. His knowledge/skill level is novice at best. We can all see that.
I have suggested to him many times that he would enjoy this group more if he asked questions of others and shared his layout progress in Weekend Photo Fun. Instead, he just stirs up controversy with uninformed opinions, insults, and bad assumptions.
He seems to need to be the bully-expert in the room, but we all know he is in fact just nothing.
There is a term for internet personalities like his.
And then... there is the whole "I am never wrong" thing.
LastspikemikeNCE made the wrong decision whereas MRC made the correct decision about the functionality of the red emergency stop button.
LastspikemikeUnplugging the rogue device is fairly intuitive provided you don't also supply what looks like an emergency off button.
LastspikemikeOne key that NCE is wrong is they have different designs for their several systems.
Lastspikemikemuch of the poor ergonomics afflicting modern life results from poor software engineering.
LastspikemikeThe biggest failure of the current designs of DCC systems is they are hard to use.
LastspikemikeThe fact is that the OP here shouldn't be experiencing these difficulties. It should be really easy to change the momentum feature.
LastspikemikeAfter all, once you've used the bell and the whistle what else is really useful about DCC?
gregc do you have any experience with product developement? Lastspikemike It doesn't take a genius to figure out that NCE made the wrong decision whereas MRC made the correct decision about the functionality of the red emergency stop button. "wrong decision" ... that's an opinion. Lastspikemike It should take what maybe 5 minutes to change the function from multiple applications to a short continuous application of the button? you've already spent more time discussing it. you have no idea what it takes to put a software change into production and do you expect them to retrofit all existing products ??? Lastspikemike I conclude NCE still thinks their original solution is correct and it seems obvious to me that they are wrong about that. One key that NCE is wrong is they have different designs for their several systems. Only one of these designs can be correct. why should they redesign a product that so many people are still satisfied with and purchasing? perhaps they felt the behavior should be different because they are different devices: one a complete system, the other just a controller. Lastspikemike Finally, this and other threads like it prove my point. The biggest failure of the current designs of DCC systems is they are hard to use. "prove your point" ... other's disagree. you say that with 20/20 hindsight. perhaps if they were developing a new product today they might, might do things differently. but considering how long the product has been in production, you have to give them credit for the forsight they had with very little DCC experience at that time. if these products were such faliures, others would come out with "improved" products, but none have that have significantly taken market share away from NCE.
do you have any experience with product developement?
Lastspikemike It doesn't take a genius to figure out that NCE made the wrong decision whereas MRC made the correct decision about the functionality of the red emergency stop button.
"wrong decision" ... that's an opinion.
Lastspikemike It should take what maybe 5 minutes to change the function from multiple applications to a short continuous application of the button?
you've already spent more time discussing it. you have no idea what it takes to put a software change into production
and do you expect them to retrofit all existing products ???
Lastspikemike I conclude NCE still thinks their original solution is correct and it seems obvious to me that they are wrong about that. One key that NCE is wrong is they have different designs for their several systems. Only one of these designs can be correct.
why should they redesign a product that so many people are still satisfied with and purchasing?
perhaps they felt the behavior should be different because they are different devices: one a complete system, the other just a controller.
Lastspikemike Finally, this and other threads like it prove my point. The biggest failure of the current designs of DCC systems is they are hard to use.
"prove your point" ... other's disagree.
you say that with 20/20 hindsight. perhaps if they were developing a new product today they might, might do things differently.
but considering how long the product has been in production, you have to give them credit for the forsight they had with very little DCC experience at that time.
if these products were such faliures, others would come out with "improved" products, but none have that have significantly taken market share away from NCE.
In this case, we have a forum member who does not operate a DCC powered layout and, to my knowledge, does not own a Power Cab or Pro Cab produced by NCE. So, it seems to be one man's opinion, taking shot after shot at NCE which has a broad base of satisfied users.
The E-stop triple key press feature is a creative and innovative approach to making emergency stops.
There are five aspects of ergonomics: safety, comfort, ease of use, productivity/performance, and aesthetics. In my opinion, as a satisfied user of NCE products for the past 17 years, NCE meets all five aspects.
LastspikemikeIt doesn't take a genius to figure out that NCE made the wrong decision whereas MRC made the correct decision about the functionality of the red emergency stop button.
LastspikemikeIt should take what maybe 5 minutes to change the function from multiple applications to a short continuous application of the button?
LastspikemikeI conclude NCE still thinks their original solution is correct and it seems obvious to me that they are wrong about that. One key that NCE is wrong is they have different designs for their several systems. Only one of these designs can be correct.
LastspikemikeFinally, this and other threads like it prove my point. The biggest failure of the current designs of DCC systems is they are hard to use.
if these products were such faliures, others would come out with "improved" products, but none have that have significantly taken market share away from NCE
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I am not a DCC user, but I have operated on layouts using the NCE system and found it easy to use and worked just fine.
Their engineers and software guys are OK in my book.
tstageYou can make that 16 years for my Power Cab, Rich. And I have zero regrets for purchasing it.
SeeYou190 Martin4 When I try setting up a momentum value for any loco on my Power Cab I get prompted to type a value between 0 and 9. But whichever value I type in, nothing happens. Have you tried this with different controllers? -Kevin
Martin4 When I try setting up a momentum value for any loco on my Power Cab I get prompted to type a value between 0 and 9. But whichever value I type in, nothing happens.
Have you tried this with different controllers?
No, the Power Cab is the only DCC controller I have.
Martin 4
LastspikemikeWell, I did right away in fact. Confirms my opinion that software guys don't understand ergonomics at all.
that's not their job.
when i worked in the business terminals lab at Bell Labs, there was a human factors dept that evaluated ergonomics.
i doubt NCE has such a dept, but i feel they did a pretty good job
LastspikemikeNCE requires three discrete presses of the one red button to emergency stop the layout, except on their basic Powercab which requires the operator to have the presence of mind to not hit the emergency button but to unplug the power cord from the layout instead, either at the layout end or the throttle end. Technically speaking the Powercab emergency button is really only a brake button. That makes me wonder about the rest of the NCE interface, frankly. That's very poor engineering.
You can criticize the design but the interface for the Power Cab is very intuitive. And, if you were a Power Cab user you would intuitively understand that unplugging the 6-contact flat cable shuts down the entire layout because it's the command station, booster, and throttle all rolled up into one. Holding the Power Cab in my lefthand, I can probably disconnect the power cord from the base of the Power Cab quicker than hitting the emergency stop button.
Also, despite how you want to interpret what you read, the red emergency button on my Power Cab stops a locomotive immediately. The only difference is that the layout remains on. A brake usually results in coasting to a stop; quite different.
richhotrain Well, now that you have demeaned the software and engineering skills of the NCE team, I can only say that there are thousands of perfectly satisfied NCE users out there. In my case, 17 years of trouble free performance.
Well, now that you have demeaned the software and engineering skills of the NCE team, I can only say that there are thousands of perfectly satisfied NCE users out there.
In my case, 17 years of trouble free performance.
You can make that 16 years for my Power Cab, Rich. And I have zero regrets for purchasing it.
Water Level Route cv_acr Press the E-Stop button twice quickly and it will shut everything down. Actually three presses for the Powerhouse Pro. The ProCab may twice. It would surprise me they would be different, but possible.
cv_acr Press the E-Stop button twice quickly and it will shut everything down.
Actually three presses for the Powerhouse Pro. The ProCab may twice. It would surprise me they would be different, but possible.
cv_acrPress the E-Stop button twice quickly and it will shut everything down.
Water Level Route Lastspikemike The emergency stop button stops everything. Not true. On an NCE system, pressing the emergency stop once stops only the train called up on the throttle, not everything running.
Lastspikemike The emergency stop button stops everything.
Not true. On an NCE system, pressing the emergency stop once stops only the train called up on the throttle, not everything running.
Press the E-Stop button once and it stops your train.
Press the E-Stop button twice quickly and it will shut everything down.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Lastspikemike So how does an NCE user stop everything at once?
So how does an NCE user stop everything at once?
Martin4When I try setting up a momentum value for any loco on my Power Cab I get prompted to type a value between 0 and 9. But whichever value I type in, nothing happens.
LastspikemikeThe emergency stop button stops everything.
LastspikemikeWhen using momentum it is wise to find the F key for the brake. Often it's F10
LastspikemikeWhen using momentum it is wise to find the F key for the brake. Often it's F10.
On the Power Cab and Pro Cab throttles it's a red octagonal button right smack in the middle. Hard to miss...
LastspikemikeDo you need ESU's proprietary software to read CV values? Lokprogrammer is it called?
Depends. On the ESU groups.io they will tell you you need a lokprogrammer or decoder pro. If you just want to change the cab number, horn, momentum and minor stuff that is not true. However there are 1000's of CVs you could possibly change. If you want to tweek everything imanginable, then you do.
LastspikemikeWhen using momentum it is wise to find the F key for the brake. Often it's F10. The emergency stop button stops everything.
F10 is not the brake in Loksound decoders unless you have done remapping.
A certain amount of momentum is necessary to hear all the sounds offered in ESu decoders.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
It's worth a consideration, Rich. It's nice being able to program a decoder at your workbench/kitchen table/toilet lid(?), etc) vs having to do it on your layout. I love being able to break-in a brass locomotive up in my study on a short piece of track outfitted with rollerstands...or bench-testing a decoder install to make sure everything is working properly.
The Power Cab's ammeter is also quite handy for monitoring the current draw of a locomotive motor. That's how I knew that the can motor in my brass PSC 0-8-0 switcher wasn't working properly. I think the power spikes would have eventually cooked the decoder had I left it in and not replaced it with the coreless motor. Now that locomotive draws a whopping 0.03A @ speed step 030 vs spikes of 0.9A and >.
tstage Correct. Momentum increases the amount of time it takes to accelerate or decelerate to a given speed or come to a stop. So, the larger the value; the longer it takes your locomotive to speed up and slow down. And you can add as little or as much momentum as you want...or none at all. You can also program the CVs separately so that you have more momentum starting out than slowing down or vice versa. Tom
Correct. Momentum increases the amount of time it takes to accelerate or decelerate to a given speed or come to a stop. So, the larger the value; the longer it takes your locomotive to speed up and slow down. And you can add as little or as much momentum as you want...or none at all. You can also program the CVs separately so that you have more momentum starting out than slowing down or vice versa.
wdcrvrDoes changing the momentum setting change the rate of increase or decrease in the speed of the loco? So if you want to keep your locos from jumping into movement do you set the momentum at a higher level? Does higher momentum also mean that the loco will also take longer to respond to a reduction in speed thereby increasing the stopping distance needed?
Yes, that's it. You set the acceleration and deceleration separately.
I really like it. I have mine set fairly high. I can put in the top speed I want for the train and watch it start with a crawl and slowly reach the top speed. I like that.
I imagine some others would not like it, and would like to control each speed increase.
As Mike mentioned, the deceleration may make control a little difficult, but you can stop the train immediately by pushing the emergency stop button.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."