Momentum on an NCE Power Cab

[Steven Otte]

All right, that's enough bickering. Thanks for trying to keep things on track, Tom, but I have less patience than you.

[tstage]

Martin4

I made sure that each loco had a momentum set to 0 before creating the consist. After that any change in value applied the same to every loco in the consist.

Now I will try if Drive Hold behaves the same.

Martin 4

Gentlemen,

The above is where the OP last left off the conversation.  Out of respect for him and since further discussion of symantics will likely prove fruitless because one side, in particular, isn't going to change their approach to posting - even after numerous attempts to persuade them otherwise in this and other threads, any further discussion of the aforementioned will be subsequently deleted from the thread.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Tom

[CSX Robert]

"randomly not falling off a bike":

https://youtu.be/WB3qTVg3hhs?t=153

[CSX Robert]

Lastspikemike

Maybe it's wrong isn't a statement if fact. You are wrong is.

Exactly.  All too often, someone says "You are wrong" when he really should have said "Maybe it's wrong."

[gregc]

Lastspikemike

And yet in every case involving an engineering issue each side finds an engineer to testify for them. 

but those engineers are asked by lawyers to support a case in courtroom environment

this is not how engineering is discussed/performed in the lab.

these forums are more like the later.  sharing information and discussing pros & cons without judgement

[gregc]

seems there's a big difference between lawyering and engineering

in lawyering, it seems the fact that your case is right or wrong is irrelevant, the lawyer is trying to convince people that his side is in the right and the other side is in the wrong.

in engineering, finding a bug or a problem is cause for celebration because it's one less thing that can go wrong.

engineers often argue the other side to insure flaws aren't overlooked.    and during those discussions, someone might point out a perceived flaw only to retract the comment when reminded of some other piece of information

[CSX Robert]

Lastspikemike

 

 

gregc

 

 

Lastspikemike

Pointing out that someone is wrong is not a personal attack.

 

 

there's a difference between saying "you're wrong" and"i think you're wrong"

 

 

 

 

There isn't...

 

There is a significant difference.  The first one is stating an objective fact.  The second one can be used two ways, to state a subjective opinion or to state an objective fact that you believe to be true but are not cetain of.

Examples:

"1 + 2 = 5." - "You are wrong, 1 + 2 = 3." - An objective fact.

"Florida has the nicest weather." - "I think you are wrong, Tennessee has the nicest weather." - A subjective opinion.

"That product has 'such and such' feature" - "I think you are wrong, because I have read about that product online, but I don't actually have any hands on experience with it so I could be mistaken." - An objective fact though not certain of its truthfulness.

 

[Martin4]

I made sure that each loco had a momentum set to 0 before creating the consist. After that any change in value applied the same to every loco in the consist.

Now I will try if Drive Hold behaves the same.

Martin 4

richhotrain

Martin4

Grateful to Tom for puting me on the correct way !

Tom, you are the man! Thanks for helping Martin as much as you have, and for carrying through in spite of all the obstacles presented in this thread.

Rich

 

[York1]

Speaking of consists, I have two Kato N Scale locomotives that have different decoders.  Before I put them into a consist, I had to speed match them on two parallel tracks.

Then it took a while, but I matched their acceleration and deceleration.

There was quite a bit of difference between the two decoders when both decoders were set to the same acceleration setting.

I know that some don't like the momentum function, but I love it.  I enjoy setting the speed I want and letting the locos accelerate slowly to that speed.

[tstage]

So changing the momentum to the lead locomotive also changes CVs 3 & 4 to the other two locomotives in the consist?  Good to know.  I thought maybe you were altering each locomotive's momentum individually before placing them together in a consist.  And having all three locomotives being the exact same model from the same manufacturer should help ensure smooth momentum between locomotives.

Glad I could help, Martin.  This has helped me gain a better understanding.

Tom

[richhotrain]

Martin4

Grateful to Tom for puting me on the correct way !

Tom, you are the man! Thanks for helping Martin as much as you have, and for carrying through in spite of all the obstacles presented in this thread.

Rich

[Martin4]

I just tried with a trio of identical Atlas GP40-2Ws. The momentum applies the same way to all 3 of them.

Grateful to Tom for puting me on the correct way !

 

Martin 4

[tstage]

Martin,

Thanks for confirming my earlier experiment with your own findings.  It should also work with consisting.  However, it may be a little trickier getting all the locomotives to have the same momentum simultaneously.  There could be some noticeable pushing & pulling until the consist comes up (or down) to speed.

Tom

[Martin4]

Coming back to the original subject. 

I experimented with setting momentum values on different locos and found these values are effectively "remembered" by each of the decoders and are still there even after a shutdown. 

Now I will try if that also works with consists.

 

Martin 4

[gregc]

Lastspikemike

Pointing out that someone is wrong is not a personal attack.

there's a difference between saying "you're wrong" and"i think you're wrong"

[tstage]

Lastspikemike

Chimps are pretty smart and no human can ride a bicycle backwards.

Try again, maestro...

Hopefully that doesn't make you uncomfortable with your world view.

[selector]

Lastspikemike

... 

As I've said before, unless you have an alternative view there is little point in posting anything.

This was a necessary orientation to your work as a lawyer.  You haven't managed to leave it behind in a forum where a lot of opinion AND facts are exchanged, parsed, and negotiated.  Try maybe being less transactional about your offerings here, and less dogmatic.

Lastspikemike

...At no time have I ever commenced a sequence of personal critiques or even comments on this or any other forum.

I know it's difficult for you to see, but you do that very thing each time you post an absolute statement (which I cautioned you about in my very first reply to you many months ago) and continue argumentation in the face of all proferred evidence contradicting your dicta.

Lastspikemike

...It is true that many people become uncomfortable when their world view is questioned. I am not one of those.

The rest of us know, without having to wink at one another, how ironic your self-claim is.

[SeeYou190]

Lastspikemike

As I've said before, unless you have an alternative view there is little point in posting anything.

Sharing, encouragement, praise, experiences, advice, stories, help, answers, support, condolence, sympathy, information, fellowship...

I guess all those are "little points" in Spike-World.

-Kevin

[gregc]

Lastspikemike

unless you have an alternative view there is little point in posting anything.

a different perspective, yes; an absolute, no!

Lastspikemike

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that NCE made the wrong decision

Lastspikemike

What's puzzling is why NCE doesn't just rewrite a tiny bit of software to correct such an obvious deficiency.

Lastspikemike

I conclude NCE still thinks their original solution is correct and it seems obvious to me that they are wrong about that

Lastspikemike

I observe that companies centered on software frequently seem to have no idea how to properly design the human interface.

Lastspikemike

Finally, this and other threads like it prove my point.

Lastspikemike

The fact is that the OP here shouldn't be experiencing these difficulties.

it gets tiresome

i'd appreciate hearing your perspective ... but not implying my perspective is wrong

[JDawg]

You know, watching this thread derail reminds me of a saying. 

"The higher the monkey climbs the tree, the more it shows it's tail."

[JDawg]

tstage

 

 

Lastspikemike

At no time have I ever commenced a sequence of personal critiques or even comments on this or any other forum.

 

 

 

 

[tstage]

Lastspikemike

At no time have I ever commenced a sequence of personal critiques or even comments on this or any other forum.

[CSX Robert]

gregc

"Argumentative"!

 

Yep, that's true of several people on this forum.

[tstage]

Well, you can set it up to do that...but I guess you'd criticize it no matter what method was used...

[tstage]

Lastspikemike

It seems from the NCE manual that their momentum shortcut button changed both acc and dec momentum concurrently and by fixed amounts. It's an odd feature.

If you want a "shortcut" to a function that changes two CVs concurrently then both values will be the same; otherwise, you would need to access CVs 3 & 4 individually and adjust the values to your preference.  Odd to you, I guess.  Makes logical sense to me...and it's a convenient way to quickly add or remove momentum.  Adjusting them independently with the Power Cab is pretty straightforward, too.

Tom

[gregc]

"Argumentative"!

[tstage]

Lastspikemike

NCE momentum button appears to be just a shortcut key to reset CV3 and CV4 instead of going to those CVs and entering the actual values required to make the desired changes.

That's exactly what it is.

The manual is not clear whether the CV values are reset and retained  in the decoder or just temporarily overriden for that operating session.

If you had bothered to take the time to read through the earlier portion of the thread you would have understood that question had already been answered.  Maybe try spending less time posting speculations and more time asking questions - i.e. if you really are interested in learning vs merely vocalizing and/or backpedaling from previous made statements.

Tom

[SeeYou190]

Lastspikemike

I made no claim that the ergonomics

Lastspikemike

MRC ergonomics seem best

-Kevin

[Water Level Route]

Lastspikemike

Incidentally, I made no claim that the ergonomics in general of any DCC throttle was good, bad or indifferent.

Lastspikemike

Only MRC gets the ergonomics correct:

You certainly inferred it.