You are both correct, the P114 is readily available. I was apparently going on unverified information, which I should not have done.
However, the two replies to my post seem to have completely missed or ignored the main point - Regardless of whether or not a replacement is available, until the OP confirms that his existing power supply has been tested to be operating correctly under load, all else is merely speculation.
BigDaddy MrMe Since NCE doesn't make those power supplies available separately, those out-of-warranty PowerCab users really have no other choice No choice? https://tinyurl.com/yg2zo8zs
MrMe Since NCE doesn't make those power supplies available separately, those out-of-warranty PowerCab users really have no other choice
No choice? https://tinyurl.com/yg2zo8zs
Rich
Alton Junction
MrMeSince NCE doesn't make those power supplies available separately, those out-of-warranty PowerCab users really have no other choice
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Wow, two pages of speculation over six days and the OP still hasn't confirmed that the original power supply is working properly (supplying the correct voltage/current under load.)
Until he does, all this speculation is nothing but, well, speculation!
And there are at least a few reports from PowerCab users on the NCE list on groups.io about having to use "other" power supplies after the one that came with their now-out-of-warranty PowerCab has died. Since NCE doesn't make those power supplies available separately, those out-of-warranty PowerCab users really have no other choice. And since the OP stated he's still on the 1.28C firmware, we can be pretty sure (Yeah, I know - More speculation!) his PowerCab is out of warranty...
richhotrainBut, just how useful it is for diagnostic purposes such as a short circuit,
without any locos or cars with lights on the track, the ammeter should indicate zero. if it doesn't, there's a low level short in the trackwork that needs to be tracked down and fixed.
if it is the loco, which he said runs at low speed, then you might expect it to indicate close to shutdown current before increasing the speed and seeing the PowerCab shut down. this would suggest there's a problem with the loco. most HO locos don't draw more than 1A
if it indicates relatively little current, 0.2A, just before increasing the speed and causing the PowerCab to shutdown, it may be due to a faulty power supply that isn't supplying whatever the PowerCab is rated at (~1.3A). the power supply voltage is dropping at a relatively low current causing the PowerCab to shutdown because of insufficient votlage, not excessive current
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I asked it this happens at the high resistance area and the OP said:
WilScarletMacawIt does not. It happens anywhere on the layout.
Maybe the high resistance area is a red herring. Perhaps another problem but not the one that is causing the PC to reset. The OP hasn't said there were recent changes to the track layout, so what would cause repeated shorts through out the layout?
If somehow a DPDT switch was the problem, how would it appear only on acceleration?
I have no answers, but I am getting the feeling there is some other major data point that we do not know and the OP has not recognized could be a problem.
Overmod I'm still waiting to hear what the current reading from the cab is while he is operating -- ideally what the device reads at the time it 'resets'.
I'm still waiting to hear what the current reading from the cab is while he is operating -- ideally what the device reads at the time it 'resets'.
gregc what does the power meter indicate?
what does the power meter indicate?
But, just how useful it is for diagnostic purposes such as a short circuit, I am not sure. If the Power Cab tries to reset because of a short that exceeds the capacity of the Power Cab (approximately 2 amps), it may try to reset before the Ammeter completes the measurement of the overcurrent. So, there may not be a reliable reading available.
WilScarletMacawI'm leaning this way too. How do I test the DPDT switches? All of their soldering joints seem solid.
do you still think exessive resistance can cause a short?
it can't
Can you identify which turnout connects to the high resistance section of track?
Any recent work on the layout that could help lead to the problem?
WilScarletMacaw richhotrain For testing purposes, I would remove the turnout near the high resistance section of track to see if the problem ceases to occur. I would test those four DPDT switches to ensure proper operation. I'm leaning this way too. How do I test the DPDT switches? All of their soldering joints seem solid.
richhotrain For testing purposes, I would remove the turnout near the high resistance section of track to see if the problem ceases to occur. I would test those four DPDT switches to ensure proper operation.
I'm leaning this way too. How do I test the DPDT switches? All of their soldering joints seem solid.
Are your DPDT switches On-On or On-Off-On?
What is the purpose of the DPDT switches on your layout? Are you using them to kill power to the four tracks coming off the mainline?
If your wiring is stranded, be sure to look close for any loose strands of wire that may be touching other terminals or other wiring on the DPDT.
richhotrainFor testing purposes, I would remove the turnout near the high resistance section of track to see if the problem ceases to occur. I would test those four DPDT switches to ensure proper operation.
Sorry it's taking so long to reply. I have an elderly dog who is taking up a lot of time.
Phil
BigDaddy jjdamnit The batteries in the cab? The PC doesn't have a battery AFAIK..If it does, mine is still good. still waiting to hear if this shut down reset occurs on the high resistance track.
jjdamnit The batteries in the cab?
The PC doesn't have a battery AFAIK..If it does, mine is still good.
still waiting to hear if this shut down reset occurs on the high resistance track.
It does not. It happens anywhere on the layout.
Sometimes when a short appears it is because of a previus short caused a gap closing or developing a whisker, I think a whisker is more likely because it dose not short instantly. Wonder how I know this, I can tell you it is not in any manual that I ever read, sidenote, don't leave a caulk gun on the rails and always check for items before starting up.
It’s been a while since we have heard from the OP. I have followed this thread with interest since I was the one who originally suggested that he start this thread.
Let’s revisit what we know.
The OP has an HO scale version of the Yule Central Railroad. It is a small layout, as shown in the following track diagram.
It is a simple oval with an interchange track, a small 2-track yard, a mine spur and a runaround track. This is consistent with the OP’s description. The OP also mentions that there are four DPDT switches for block control. He doesn’t mention the location of the DPDT switches, but they may be “kill” switches to control power on those four tracks off the mainline. He also doesn’t mention if those switches are on or off relative to power when the resetting of the Power Cab occurs. He also mentions that there are six Atlas snap turnouts, and their locations are obvious in the track diagram.
This is a DCC layout controlled by an NCE Power Cab that NCE has recently tested and pronounced trouble free.
The OP doesn’t mention anything about the power supply, but NCE includes a power supply (P114) when the Power Cab is purchased. Using any other power supply is not recommended by NCE, and use of a different power supply will void the factory warranty.
The Power Cab has built in overload for basic self-protection that will continuously try to reset the Power Cab ever 1/2 second until damaged if it is left uncorrected. The Power Cab does not have circuit breakers that will trip or fuses that will blow. NCE recommends the use of a circuit breaker such as the NCE EB1 or DCC Specialties PSX to protect the Power Cab against short circuits. The OP doesn’t mention if he has a circuit breaker installed to protect the Power Cab, nor does he mention the presence of any other circuitry on the layout. Is there a circuit breaker or any other circuitry on the layout?
He has installed a 14 gauge bus and attached 22 gauge feeders with solder and suitcase connectors. This is more than adequate for a small layout. The OP was going to check all connections to be sure that they are solid.
So, here is the problem that the OP describes in his opening post.
Using a multi meter, he has found “heavy resistance” in one rail leading to a turnout. A locomotive is not on the high resistance track when the Power Cab resets. He does not indicate which turnout is adjacent to the high resistance piece of track. Which turnout is it? Is the locomotive on that turnout when the Power Cab resets? Can a locomotive be accelerating anywhere on the layout, mainline or not, when the Power Cab resets?
Further testing on an EZ Track oval showed that decoders and PowerCab were working fine. Some of the decoders required resets to factory defaults. The OP tested for short circuits using the "quarter test," and each time the quarter was laid on both rails my system turned off. On the EZ track oval? The Yule Central layout? Or both?
The OP does not mention whether he has done anything on the layout recently that could have caused this Power Cab resetting problem. Has he done anything on the layout recently, or did the problem suddenly arise for no apparent reason?
One thing is certain. The Power Cab will continually reset, or try to, in the event of a detected short circuit. The Power Cab is rated at 2 amps, so it doesn’t take much current to exceed its capacity. NCE has suggested that the OP purchase a Smart Booster (SB5). The SB5 is a 5 amp booster that can obviously handle more locomotives than the 2 amp Power Cab. So, the question is, how many amps are reaching the Power Cab when it resets?
The potential causes of the overcurrent problem are several. The power supply could be damaged. The turnout could be faulty. The wiring could be suspect. A DPDT may be the problem. Or, the Power Cab may be simply behaving as intended, resetting to correct an overloaded power supply.
Since NCE tested the Power Cab, I would rule out Power Cab malfunction.
Since the OP successfully tested the Power Cab system on a separate oval of track, I would rule out a damaged power supply. That said, it's too bad that NCE didn't test the power supply just to be sure that it is operating properly. In the back of my mind, I do wonder about the power supply.
For testing purposes, I would remove the turnout near the high resistance section of track to see if the problem ceases to occur.
I would test those four DPDT switches to ensure proper operation.
Since it happens with all of his locomotives, I would rule out a locomotive or decoder problem, although I wonder why some of the decoders have to be reset to factory defaults after the Power Cab resets. How many locomotives are physically sitting on the layout?
All those diagnostics aside, it would seem to come down to the Power Cab performing as expected, trying to reset following detection of a short circuit.
About the only thing left to resolve is a possible wiring issue. Has the OP done anything recently to the layout, particularly affecting the wiring?
I will make one suggestion to the OP and that is to install a circuit breaker between the Power Cab and the layout. As I mentioned, the Power Cab does not have its own circuit breaker protection. Constant resets can ultimately destroy the Power Cab.
NCE strongly recommends a circuit breaker. Why NCE does not include one with the Power Cab and power supply is beyond me. The circuit breaker should be set below the capacity of the booster to be certain that the short circuit does not reach the booster.
snjroyMy undestanding is that ALL of is locos are behaving this way. IMHO, that excludes a heavy amp draw if he runs one loco at a time, right?
No, not if the heavy current draw isn't from a locomotive. I can think of two likely causes for his issue:
1) A low level short in his wiring or track work. If so, it could be drawing close to the Power Cab's limit, and then when he starts running an engine at any appreciable speed it pushes it over the limit. This would be immediately noticeable using the current measuring function of the Power Cab (by seeing current draw when there is nothing on the layout to draw current).
2) Power supply going bad. If the power supply isn't bad, then displaying the current draw while running should show an increase in current draw to close to the maximum allowed before the system resets. If you don't see that increase, then the power supply is probably bad. In this case, the test isn't as definitive because if something else is causing the reset the current draw could spike quickly enough to cause the reset without it being seen in the current draw, but if you do see the current draw increase to close to the limit before it resets, then you can at least tell for sure that it is not the power supply.
Another possibility is a combination of 1 and 2 - a low level short that has existed for a while, but does not draw enough current to cause the reset problems. That could cause the power supply to run hot for extended periods which could damage the power supply to the point where it can no longer supply enough current to overcome the short.
snjroy And it appears to be at the same spot in the layout, near a turnout, based on his own diagnosis
Actually, he said it's not at that spot:
is the loco on this high resistance track when the PC resets? No, it is not.
I think the purpose of monitoring the amp draw is to see what happens when he goes through the 'mystery' area at known DCC voltage to see how far and how consistently the current changes. That would give us a better handle on the likely possibilities. I don't see how higher resistance would produce a system reset, but the interesting detail is that he said 'some of his decoders had to be reset to factory settings' -- what was the reason he did that, and what were the changed settings as found?
I never did see the answer about where he had the probes when he measured the 'heavy resistance in one rail'. It might be interesting to repeat that measurement with a device that can apply higher amperage across the tested area to see if the reading changes.
My undestanding is that ALL of is locos are behaving this way. IMHO, that excludes a heavy amp draw if he runs one loco at a time, right? And it appears to be at the same spot in the layout, near a turnout, based on his own diagnosis. I suspect dirty track or faulty wiring, as WilScarlet himself suggests. I can't see how ALL of his locomotives would be affected by a short. On the other hand, dirty track could momentarily stop a loco, but it would not restart the system, which suggests a short. A good cleaning of the track, and full review of the wiring at that spot, as the OP suggests, seems like a good start. Additional feeders may also help, depending on the location.
Simon
yes
hoping the OP will report the current being drawn by his loco after you described how to enable it
gregc tstage And to aid the OP into setting up that feature on his Power Cab in the event that he's not familiar with how to do that... Press PROG/ESC 5x Press ENTER Press 1 for SHOW TRK CURRENT Press ESC 2x (to get back to operating screen) It is a very handy feature. I use it often for monitoring current draw before or after a motor installation. Tom what does the current meter report?
tstage And to aid the OP into setting up that feature on his Power Cab in the event that he's not familiar with how to do that... Press PROG/ESC 5x Press ENTER Press 1 for SHOW TRK CURRENT Press ESC 2x (to get back to operating screen) It is a very handy feature. I use it often for monitoring current draw before or after a motor installation. Tom
It is a very handy feature. I use it often for monitoring current draw before or after a motor installation.
Tom
what does the current meter report?
Greg,
After its activated the current is displayed in the upper right portion of the LCD screen of the Power Cab in place of the fast clock. Current is displayed in 10s of milliamps (or 0.01A). Refresh rate is ~1 sec.
I replaced a Mashima can motor in a brass 0-8-0 switcher because it was going bad. At speed step 030 it would fluctuate between 0.18 and 0.37A then suddenly spike to 0.9A (or higher) before dropping back down again. The Power Cab meter was handy for monitoring the fluctuation while operating the motor with the locomotive up on roller stands. The coreless motor that I replaced it with would operate at speed step 030 at a mere 0.03As. And it was dead-on steady, with very little fluctuation in current draw.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Hey I built the same layout about 15 years ago! It's a nice little plan. I did not use a bus - I went from DC to DCC and pretty much kept the same cab wires. It's not a big plan - your system should be able to handle it no problem.
Since all the locos are doing the same thing, and the system itself is OK, I suspect there is a problem with the track or the wiring. I would check the voltage at various points to see if it is OK.
When I first got my 5-amp Lenz DCC system, I drove it with an old train transformer. It did not provide 5 amps, but it seemed to work fine. However, eventually as my layout got larger and I was running multiple locomotives, things started to slow down.
I realized what was happening and bought a real 5-amp power supply to drive the DCC system. It's been fine ever since.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Yes, inquiring minds want to know.
Hello All,
tstageNCE does make a wireless Power Cab and that - not surprisingly - uses batteries.
Again, sorry for the confusion.
The PowerPro 5 Amp booster/command station does require a compatible 5 Amp power supply for optimum performance.
jmbraddockIt's possible that the power supply is going bad and needs to be replaced.
The Power Cab system requires a wall wart. It's a far stretch that it would fail.
If the power supply fails, I presume, all movements would not be possible.
However, even some of my own suggestions/solutions have been- -farfetched.
Let the OP sort through some of the suggestions and post their observations with follow-up questions.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
No, the Power Cab is a throttle, booster, and command station rolled up into one. It receives power from the LEFT connector port of the PCP panel using the 6-contact RJ12 flat cable, which is powered by a wall transformer. NCE does make a wireless Power Cab and that - not surprisingly - uses batteries.
BigDaddyThe PC doesn't have a battery AFAIK..If it does, mine is still good.
Sorry, I didn't know.
I'm using the NCE Wireless PowerPro with a separate command station/booster.
The wireless cab uses 4 x AAA batteries. I thought the cab might have batteries.
I apologize for the confusion.
jjdamnitThe batteries in the cab?
WilScarletMacaw I have to suspect the over 10 year old wiring on my layout.
OK, grasping at straws here...
The NCE Wireless PowerPro manual, recommends installing the non-powered Cab Bus Fascia Panel UTP "upside-down" or PCB side "up" so dust and foreign particles don't contaminate the connections.
Try removing the PowerCab Power Panel and cleaning it with canned air over the entire PCB.
Remove the connectors and blow into the female connectors to force any contaminants out of the connectors rather than blowing on the outside forcing them deeper into the recesses of the powered PCB and related connectors.
Keep us apprised of your progress.
Post Script: My father-in-law was a research scientist. He used to say that a negative result will send you down a path to success sometimes faster than the result you expected.J.J.D.I., H.T.H.
tstageAnd to aid the OP into setting up that feature on his Power Cab in the event that he's not familiar with how to do that... Press PROG/ESC 5x Press ENTER Press 1 for SHOW TRK CURRENT Press ESC 2x (to get back to operating screen) It is a very handy feature. I use it often for monitoring current draw before or after a motor installation. Tom