You shouldn't need a booster for a layout that small, expecially since you didn't need one for years.
I'm not understanding why high resistance rail would not just stop the train rather than reset the PC. I'd drop a feeder to the high resistance track, easier than tearing out track and ballast.
I was assuming but maybe I shouldn't, is the loco on this high resistance track when the PC resets?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
When you sent in your PowerCab, did you include the power supply or just the cab? It's possible that the power supply is going bad and needs to be replaced.
Joe
Hello All,
Thank you for the detailed update.
One more question...
How many locomotives do you run simultaneously?
Is it possible that you are now exceeding the 2 Amps of the system?
You didn't mention any track cleaning regime. Have you tried cleaning the suspect rail, associated contacts, and rail joiners?
The resistance of a dirty rail might mimic a higher load and possibly trip the system.
Another thought is the solder joint to the rail has become corroded.
If you can try to resolder this joint. Avoid using paste-type plumbers solder. I recently switched to Rosin Paste Flux (SRA Flux# 135). After resoldering clean the joints thoroughly with Isopropyl Alcohol.
Also, "suitcase" connectors have been known to fail. If you can replace this connector.
While you are at it inspect the wires to see if they were damaged at the time of initial installation.
If the connector cut into the wire, thereby reducing the number of strands, this can create resistance between the bus and the feeder wire. Which could create the resistance you are measuring.
Thank you again for taking the time to make a separate, more specific, post about your situation.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
WilScarletMacawOn my NCE DCC Power Cab layout, after over 10 years of successful operation, my DCC locomotives began to reset the system after I had accelerated above 3 or 4 on the 28 speed setting
with just one loco? (a new loco)?
of course increasing the speed of a locomotive increases the current and will depend on the condition of the motor, the # of cars and grade. (a typical loco shouldn't exceed 2A spinning it's wheels)
WilScarletMacaw found heavy resistance in one rail leading to a turnout.
a higher resitance is going to reduce the current not increase it, exceeding the limit of the throttle.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
WilScarletMacawUsing my multi meter I looked for resistance and found heavy resistance in one rail leading to a turnout. I suspect it must be the problem, but I don't know what to do about it. Should I make new wiring connections there? Should I get a new turnout? What is the best way to handle resistance?
A high resistance is not going to cause the PowerCab to reset. In fact, a high resistance will cause it to be less likely to reset, even in the event of a short, because the high resistance will reduce the current draw.
As someone else mentioned, did they test your power supply with the Power Cab - that would be the first thing I would check. I would also check the resistance between the two rails (with the Power Cab unplugged and locos off of the layout). It should be infinite, if not, you could have a short between the rails or in the wiring drawing some current but not enough to reset the Power Cab until you run a loco.
CSX Robertt should be infinite, if not, you could have a short between the rails or in the wiring drawing some current but not enough to reset the Power Cab until you run a loco.
the PowerCab has an option to display the current being drawn. enable that to check if there are any low-level shorts in the track without any locos, or other power consuming car (e.g. lights), on the track
it would also indicate the amount of current drawn by loco just before shutting down
gregcthe PowerCab has an option to display the current being drawn. enable that to check if there are any low-level shorts in the track without any locos, or other power consuming car (e.g. lights), on the track it would also indicate the amount of current drawn by loco just before shutting down
I forgot about that feature. That would be the first thing to check.
And to aid the OP into setting up that feature on his Power Cab in the event that he's not familiar with how to do that...
It is a very handy feature. I use it often for monitoring current draw before or after a motor installation.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
All great suggestions.
Here's a really basic one...
Have you tried resetting the system to the default factory settings?
I have the Wireless ProCab system so my instructions are different than yours.
Sounds like tstage has access to that info if you can't find your manual.
Keep us apprised.
Lastspikemike That odd rail should be fixed first. It seems an obvious possibility. I'm baffled as to how one rail can develop resistance except across a joiner or at the rail surface due to dirt. If it might be dirt then clean the rails. Small layout shouldn't take long. Rag and rail cleaner of your choice. If no difference I vote you take out the high resistance piece of track and replace it with fresh track. If these steps make no difference only then maybe start hunting for the troll under the bridge....
That odd rail should be fixed first. It seems an obvious possibility.
I'm baffled as to how one rail can develop resistance except across a joiner or at the rail surface due to dirt.
If it might be dirt then clean the rails. Small layout shouldn't take long. Rag and rail cleaner of your choice.
If no difference I vote you take out the high resistance piece of track and replace it with fresh track.
If these steps make no difference only then maybe start hunting for the troll under the bridge....
Good suggestion. Actually, all of us Michiganders who live south (under) the Mackinac Bridge are considered trolls!
jjdamnit Hello All, Thank you for the detailed update. One more question... How many locomotives do you run simultaneously? Is it possible that you are now exceeding the 2 Amps of the system? You didn't mention any track cleaning regime. Have you tried cleaning the suspect rail, associated contacts, and rail joiners? The resistance of a dirty rail might mimic a higher load and possibly trip the system. Another thought is the solder joint to the rail has become corroded. If you can try to resolder this joint. Avoid using paste-type plumbers solder. I recently switched to Rosin Paste Flux (SRA Flux# 135). After resoldering clean the joints thoroughly with Isopropyl Alcohol. Also, "suitcase" connectors have been known to fail. If you can replace this connector. While you are at it inspect the wires to see if they were damaged at the time of initial installation. If the connector cut into the wire, thereby reducing the number of strands, this can create resistance between the bus and the feeder wire. Which could create the resistance you are measuring. Thank you again for taking the time to make a separate, more specific, post about your situation. Hope this helps.
Good question. I don't run more than two at a time. Once this failure happened, I tested my other sound locos and had the same result. My non-sound locos can receive a few more speed increments before resetting.
I'll throughly clean this and possibly re-solder. Thanks.
WilScarletMacawI tested my other sound locos and had the same result. My non-sound locos can receive a few more speed increments before resetting.
So, with some minor differences, it happens to all the motive power, sound or no sound.
HMMMMM!!!
This is a real head-scratcher!
OK, other simple checks...
The batteries in the cab?
As this is a tethered connection have you tested the cables?
Inexpensive; less than $30.00, testing units are available at hardware stores and home improvement centers.
Some have a remote terminator so you don't have to pull the cable to have access to both ends of the cable at the testing unit.
Simply plug one end of the cable into the remote terminator and the other end into the testing unit.
Another, more extensive diagnostic, is to take the entire pike (layout) out of the electronic equation.
Make a test track out of two pieces of flex track or the sectional equivalent to make an approximate run of 5- to 6-feet. You can attach this to a 1" x 4" board or piece of plywood, or if you have the space directly on the pike.
You'll need this track length to get the motive power up to "failure speed" with enough room for them to stop, or- -you catch them.
Disconnect the feeder wires from the PowerCab Power Panel to the bus and attach them directly to the section of isolated track. You might need to make a temporary set of jumpers for this.
Try running a single sound locomotive on this test track and see if the same problem occurs.
If it still happens then it's probably something in the cab/power panel/power supply chain.
jmbraddockIt's possible that the power supply is going bad and needs to be replaced.
If the unit runs normally on the isolated test track then it's in the trackwork/wiring.
At least you can narrow it down to which "can of worms" you are dealing with.
As a former electrician, chasing gremlins is one of the most frustrating aspects of electronics.
What do you mean by "finding heavy resistance on one rail?"
Is there resistance between one rail and the next section of track? Is that rail on the point end or the frog end of the turnout?
You mentioned having blocks. Can you still control them? Can you shut off one block at a time to possibly isolate the problem?
My guess is that you have a low-grade short circuit that is enough to draw some current but not enough to trip the breaker. When you add a bit of current for locomotives, it crosses the threshold and trips the breaker.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
tstageAnd to aid the OP into setting up that feature on his Power Cab in the event that he's not familiar with how to do that... Press PROG/ESC 5x Press ENTER Press 1 for SHOW TRK CURRENT Press ESC 2x (to get back to operating screen) It is a very handy feature. I use it often for monitoring current draw before or after a motor installation. Tom
what does the current meter report?
WilScarletMacaw I have to suspect the over 10 year old wiring on my layout.
OK, grasping at straws here...
The NCE Wireless PowerPro manual, recommends installing the non-powered Cab Bus Fascia Panel UTP "upside-down" or PCB side "up" so dust and foreign particles don't contaminate the connections.
Try removing the PowerCab Power Panel and cleaning it with canned air over the entire PCB.
Remove the connectors and blow into the female connectors to force any contaminants out of the connectors rather than blowing on the outside forcing them deeper into the recesses of the powered PCB and related connectors.
Keep us apprised of your progress.
Post Script: My father-in-law was a research scientist. He used to say that a negative result will send you down a path to success sometimes faster than the result you expected.J.J.D.I., H.T.H.
jjdamnitThe batteries in the cab?
The PC doesn't have a battery AFAIK..If it does, mine is still good.
still waiting to hear if this shut down reset occurs on the high resistance track.
BigDaddyThe PC doesn't have a battery AFAIK..If it does, mine is still good.
Sorry, I didn't know.
I'm using the NCE Wireless PowerPro with a separate command station/booster.
The wireless cab uses 4 x AAA batteries. I thought the cab might have batteries.
I apologize for the confusion.
No, the Power Cab is a throttle, booster, and command station rolled up into one. It receives power from the LEFT connector port of the PCP panel using the 6-contact RJ12 flat cable, which is powered by a wall transformer. NCE does make a wireless Power Cab and that - not surprisingly - uses batteries.
tstageNCE does make a wireless Power Cab and that - not surprisingly - uses batteries.
Again, sorry for the confusion.
The PowerPro 5 Amp booster/command station does require a compatible 5 Amp power supply for optimum performance.
The Power Cab system requires a wall wart. It's a far stretch that it would fail.
If the power supply fails, I presume, all movements would not be possible.
However, even some of my own suggestions/solutions have been- -farfetched.
Let the OP sort through some of the suggestions and post their observations with follow-up questions.
gregc tstage And to aid the OP into setting up that feature on his Power Cab in the event that he's not familiar with how to do that... Press PROG/ESC 5x Press ENTER Press 1 for SHOW TRK CURRENT Press ESC 2x (to get back to operating screen) It is a very handy feature. I use it often for monitoring current draw before or after a motor installation. Tom what does the current meter report?
tstage And to aid the OP into setting up that feature on his Power Cab in the event that he's not familiar with how to do that... Press PROG/ESC 5x Press ENTER Press 1 for SHOW TRK CURRENT Press ESC 2x (to get back to operating screen) It is a very handy feature. I use it often for monitoring current draw before or after a motor installation. Tom
Yes, inquiring minds want to know.
When I first got my 5-amp Lenz DCC system, I drove it with an old train transformer. It did not provide 5 amps, but it seemed to work fine. However, eventually as my layout got larger and I was running multiple locomotives, things started to slow down.
I realized what was happening and bought a real 5-amp power supply to drive the DCC system. It's been fine ever since.
Hey I built the same layout about 15 years ago! It's a nice little plan. I did not use a bus - I went from DC to DCC and pretty much kept the same cab wires. It's not a big plan - your system should be able to handle it no problem.
Since all the locos are doing the same thing, and the system itself is OK, I suspect there is a problem with the track or the wiring. I would check the voltage at various points to see if it is OK.
Simon
Greg,
After its activated the current is displayed in the upper right portion of the LCD screen of the Power Cab in place of the fast clock. Current is displayed in 10s of milliamps (or 0.01A). Refresh rate is ~1 sec.
I replaced a Mashima can motor in a brass 0-8-0 switcher because it was going bad. At speed step 030 it would fluctuate between 0.18 and 0.37A then suddenly spike to 0.9A (or higher) before dropping back down again. The Power Cab meter was handy for monitoring the fluctuation while operating the motor with the locomotive up on roller stands. The coreless motor that I replaced it with would operate at speed step 030 at a mere 0.03As. And it was dead-on steady, with very little fluctuation in current draw.
yes
hoping the OP will report the current being drawn by his loco after you described how to enable it
My undestanding is that ALL of is locos are behaving this way. IMHO, that excludes a heavy amp draw if he runs one loco at a time, right? And it appears to be at the same spot in the layout, near a turnout, based on his own diagnosis. I suspect dirty track or faulty wiring, as WilScarlet himself suggests. I can't see how ALL of his locomotives would be affected by a short. On the other hand, dirty track could momentarily stop a loco, but it would not restart the system, which suggests a short. A good cleaning of the track, and full review of the wiring at that spot, as the OP suggests, seems like a good start. Additional feeders may also help, depending on the location.
I think the purpose of monitoring the amp draw is to see what happens when he goes through the 'mystery' area at known DCC voltage to see how far and how consistently the current changes. That would give us a better handle on the likely possibilities. I don't see how higher resistance would produce a system reset, but the interesting detail is that he said 'some of his decoders had to be reset to factory settings' -- what was the reason he did that, and what were the changed settings as found?
I never did see the answer about where he had the probes when he measured the 'heavy resistance in one rail'. It might be interesting to repeat that measurement with a device that can apply higher amperage across the tested area to see if the reading changes.
snjroyMy undestanding is that ALL of is locos are behaving this way. IMHO, that excludes a heavy amp draw if he runs one loco at a time, right?
No, not if the heavy current draw isn't from a locomotive. I can think of two likely causes for his issue:
1) A low level short in his wiring or track work. If so, it could be drawing close to the Power Cab's limit, and then when he starts running an engine at any appreciable speed it pushes it over the limit. This would be immediately noticeable using the current measuring function of the Power Cab (by seeing current draw when there is nothing on the layout to draw current).
2) Power supply going bad. If the power supply isn't bad, then displaying the current draw while running should show an increase in current draw to close to the maximum allowed before the system resets. If you don't see that increase, then the power supply is probably bad. In this case, the test isn't as definitive because if something else is causing the reset the current draw could spike quickly enough to cause the reset without it being seen in the current draw, but if you do see the current draw increase to close to the limit before it resets, then you can at least tell for sure that it is not the power supply.
Another possibility is a combination of 1 and 2 - a low level short that has existed for a while, but does not draw enough current to cause the reset problems. That could cause the power supply to run hot for extended periods which could damage the power supply to the point where it can no longer supply enough current to overcome the short.
snjroy And it appears to be at the same spot in the layout, near a turnout, based on his own diagnosis
Actually, he said it's not at that spot:
is the loco on this high resistance track when the PC resets? No, it is not.
It’s been a while since we have heard from the OP. I have followed this thread with interest since I was the one who originally suggested that he start this thread.
Let’s revisit what we know.
The OP has an HO scale version of the Yule Central Railroad. It is a small layout, as shown in the following track diagram.
It is a simple oval with an interchange track, a small 2-track yard, a mine spur and a runaround track. This is consistent with the OP’s description. The OP also mentions that there are four DPDT switches for block control. He doesn’t mention the location of the DPDT switches, but they may be “kill” switches to control power on those four tracks off the mainline. He also doesn’t mention if those switches are on or off relative to power when the resetting of the Power Cab occurs. He also mentions that there are six Atlas snap turnouts, and their locations are obvious in the track diagram.
This is a DCC layout controlled by an NCE Power Cab that NCE has recently tested and pronounced trouble free.
The OP doesn’t mention anything about the power supply, but NCE includes a power supply (P114) when the Power Cab is purchased. Using any other power supply is not recommended by NCE, and use of a different power supply will void the factory warranty.
The Power Cab has built in overload for basic self-protection that will continuously try to reset the Power Cab ever 1/2 second until damaged if it is left uncorrected. The Power Cab does not have circuit breakers that will trip or fuses that will blow. NCE recommends the use of a circuit breaker such as the NCE EB1 or DCC Specialties PSX to protect the Power Cab against short circuits. The OP doesn’t mention if he has a circuit breaker installed to protect the Power Cab, nor does he mention the presence of any other circuitry on the layout. Is there a circuit breaker or any other circuitry on the layout?
He has installed a 14 gauge bus and attached 22 gauge feeders with solder and suitcase connectors. This is more than adequate for a small layout. The OP was going to check all connections to be sure that they are solid.
So, here is the problem that the OP describes in his opening post.
Using a multi meter, he has found “heavy resistance” in one rail leading to a turnout. A locomotive is not on the high resistance track when the Power Cab resets. He does not indicate which turnout is adjacent to the high resistance piece of track. Which turnout is it? Is the locomotive on that turnout when the Power Cab resets? Can a locomotive be accelerating anywhere on the layout, mainline or not, when the Power Cab resets?
Further testing on an EZ Track oval showed that decoders and PowerCab were working fine. Some of the decoders required resets to factory defaults. The OP tested for short circuits using the "quarter test," and each time the quarter was laid on both rails my system turned off. On the EZ track oval? The Yule Central layout? Or both?
The OP does not mention whether he has done anything on the layout recently that could have caused this Power Cab resetting problem. Has he done anything on the layout recently, or did the problem suddenly arise for no apparent reason?
One thing is certain. The Power Cab will continually reset, or try to, in the event of a detected short circuit. The Power Cab is rated at 2 amps, so it doesn’t take much current to exceed its capacity. NCE has suggested that the OP purchase a Smart Booster (SB5). The SB5 is a 5 amp booster that can obviously handle more locomotives than the 2 amp Power Cab. So, the question is, how many amps are reaching the Power Cab when it resets?
The potential causes of the overcurrent problem are several. The power supply could be damaged. The turnout could be faulty. The wiring could be suspect. A DPDT may be the problem. Or, the Power Cab may be simply behaving as intended, resetting to correct an overloaded power supply.
Since NCE tested the Power Cab, I would rule out Power Cab malfunction.
Since the OP successfully tested the Power Cab system on a separate oval of track, I would rule out a damaged power supply. That said, it's too bad that NCE didn't test the power supply just to be sure that it is operating properly. In the back of my mind, I do wonder about the power supply.
For testing purposes, I would remove the turnout near the high resistance section of track to see if the problem ceases to occur.
I would test those four DPDT switches to ensure proper operation.
Since it happens with all of his locomotives, I would rule out a locomotive or decoder problem, although I wonder why some of the decoders have to be reset to factory defaults after the Power Cab resets. How many locomotives are physically sitting on the layout?
All those diagnostics aside, it would seem to come down to the Power Cab performing as expected, trying to reset following detection of a short circuit.
About the only thing left to resolve is a possible wiring issue. Has the OP done anything recently to the layout, particularly affecting the wiring?
I will make one suggestion to the OP and that is to install a circuit breaker between the Power Cab and the layout. As I mentioned, the Power Cab does not have its own circuit breaker protection. Constant resets can ultimately destroy the Power Cab.
NCE strongly recommends a circuit breaker. Why NCE does not include one with the Power Cab and power supply is beyond me. The circuit breaker should be set below the capacity of the booster to be certain that the short circuit does not reach the booster.
Rich
Alton Junction