I think the green wire I soldered to my frogs is one size thicker than my usual feeder - because that's what was available. It's #18 or #20. Soldered to the brass screw - but I put the brass screws in before putting the turnouts on the layout. So I ran the screw in from the bottom, then sut the excess off flush witht he top and painted the exposed brass black. The I stripped the wire, laid in in the slot in the screw head, and soldered it, never came close to melting the frog loose like happened when I first attempted to solder a wire directly to the pot metal Atlas uses. Even with the blackening cleaned off - it doesn't take solder.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
MisterBeasley Can a Dual or Hex Juicer be used across circuit breaker regions or power districts with separate boosters?
Can a Dual or Hex Juicer be used across circuit breaker regions or power districts with separate boosters?
You wouldn't want to put the frog juicer downstream from a circuit breaker. If your layout is big enough for multiple booster, you probably have a lot more than 6 turnouts. The Juicers for all frogs controlled by one booster should get their power from that booster, and the Juicer for frogs in the section controlled by the second booster should be powered from that booster. Theoretically crossing sections should work - turnout gets power from Booster A but the Juicer for the frog gets power from Booster B - but ONLY if the booster common is actually connected - for Digitrax this is the terminal on each booster and command station provided for the purpose, for NCE you attach a wire to one of the case screws. Best bet - each booster power district gets its own Juicers. Guaranteed to work with no hassles that way.
gmpullmanDon't you have finer wire coming from the frog? There you would want 22 to 28 gauge so you don't have to use too much heat to solder it to the brass screw that you thread into the eye of the frog
I thought it was also to have the proper resistance but I'm not sure why I thought that, but the specs for the mono juicer specify a frog-juice distance of 3' while the hex is 15' A 16 ga wire on the frog is going to look fugly.
gmpullmanMisterBeasley Can a Dual or Hex Juicer be used across circuit breaker regions or power districts with separate boosters?
The directions say the input to the FJ should not run via a circuit breaker, but connect directly to the booster. Any booster should do.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
kasskabooseOne question with the juicer: can I use 16 gauge wire or must I use 20+?
Here's the directions for the Hex Frog Juicer
http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/images/Hex_Frog_Juicer_Manual_v2.1.pdf
16 would be OK for the inputs from your DCC buss. Don't you have finer wire coming from the frog? There you would want 22 to 28 gauge so you don't have to use too much heat to solder it to the brass screw that you thread into the eye of the frog. You could attach heavier wire to the juicer (18-20 ga.) then splice finer closer wire to the frog.
MisterBeasleyCan a Dual or Hex Juicer be used across circuit breaker regions or power districts with separate boosters?
This statement is in the first paragraph of the instructions. To me it isn't very clear but I guess it would be OK?
Installation of the Hex Frog Juicer (HFJ) is simple. Place the board on a non-conducting surface (wood or wallboard). Connect the 2 pin terminal block to the track bus. It should be in the same power block as the frogs will be (but not necessarily if you are powering frogs across the layout). Connect a single wire from each frog to any one of the pins on the 6-pin terminal block - it doesn’t matter in which order. You are done.
Regards, Ed
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Thanks for the explanation about the juicer and it's advantages over the Atlas Snap Switch. I like that its' much smaller, easier to wire, and more tech-like than the Atlas.
One question with the juicer: can I use 16 gauge wire or must I use 20+? I don't want to fry the frog but would prefer not to buy 20+ gauge wire just for the juicers.
While I regret having to buy something else for the turnouts, I would rather not have to commit to more wiring.
Frog Juicer 100% solid state, too.
If an Atlas Snap Relay doesn't throw (mechanical solenoid, pin-in-slot, brass contacts) you'll get a short, or if somebody throws the switch manually without also throwing the relay. Could happen.
I put my first HFJ in over five years ago. set it — forget it. LED indicators if needed are on the board for status state.
Cheers, Ed
Frog Juicers are far easier to wire than the Snap Relay. With a Snap Relay, you need to make sure you have the two feeders connected to the correct terminals t the frog polarity is correct. If it's not, you get a short, and need to swap the two wires. Frog Juicer, just hook two wires to the bus, and then one wire to each frog. 6 frogs, 8 wires to hook up, and the order of the two wires to the bus do not matter one bit. Snap Relays, 6 frogs, 36 wires, and the order of 2 of the wires to each relay matters. Yes, 36 wires - the 3 that control the coil, same as with the Atlas switch motors, 2 wires to the power bus, and one wire to the frog - PER Snap Relay.
And Frog Juicers are switch motor agnostic - Atlas solenoids, peco solenoids, Tortoise, Blue Point, Caboose ground throws, even the home made over center spring that's been shown in the model press - doesn't matter how you actually control the points.
Thanks, Henry. I tried to find other threads but couldn't. The one he linked to didn't say.
So a Hex Frog Juicer is still in the running
The OP has had a couple previous threads where he said DCC.
I have four Hex frog Juicers. They work flawlessly and are VERY simple to install and wire. Actually easier than a snap Relay since each (hex) Frog Juicer has two input wires, six output. Snap relays would have three actuator wires for the twin-coils, two N and S track wires and one frog wire.
Hex Frog Juicer, total wires = 8
Six Snap Relays, total wires = 36
Hex Frog Juicer at Litchfield Station: $66. ($11/frog)
Six Snap Relays @ $10. ea. $60. tax, shipping not calculated
Also, if throwing multiple Atlas solenoids, say four in a crossover situation, a CD unit may be needed, in addition, to kick all four solenoids at once. (Maybe one Snap Relay can be used to power two frogs at a crossover, though, reducing the number to three?)
Frog Juicers are DCC ONLY. I did not see the OP state he is running DCC. *Maybe he did and I missed it? *He did and I did
Some of the Atlas points are a plated pot metal, very shiny (and very fragile). Like the frog, impossible to solder to.
Frank I knew that, my fingers did not.
BigDaddyAn Atlas Snap switch is only $10 at modeltrainstuff.
It's a Atlas snap relay.....not a snap switch, there is a big differance in the name.
https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/search?search_query_adv=atlas+snap+relay
Easier for Him to wire, than a Frog juicer......and it is cheaper at 10 dollars apiece.
They are not just plug & play.
Take Care!
Frank
kasskaboose Henry, What a great idea about the juicer. What type would I need? Here are two general kinds: http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/dccfrogjuicers.html For four #8 turnouts, the cost of a snap switch is more than a juicer. Also, I don't have to wire four different turnouts. The instructions seem "plug n' play"
Henry,
What a great idea about the juicer. What type would I need? Here are two general kinds:
http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/dccfrogjuicers.html
For four #8 turnouts, the cost of a snap switch is more than a juicer. Also, I don't have to wire four different turnouts. The instructions seem "plug n' play"
Disclaimer, I haven't needed them on my layout, though future construction with the Atlas curved turnout may change that. I've not read anything bad about them, but I'm sure some members must use them.
You can find better prices if you shop around, though I have never ordered from Traintek, Fast Tracks, I have at least heard of.
There are 3 types a single a dual and a hex. Less than 4 means a dual and a single, or a dual or a single, or a hex if you plan on future expansions.
An Atlas Snap switch relay is only $10 at modeltrainstuff.
The hex frog juicer services 6 frogs. It's not a discount solution, but I would call it an elegant solution to provide changing polarities to the frog.
kasskaboose richhotrain Regardless of the feeders' location, the #8 turnout still has a dead zone at the frog. That's because the frog is fully gapped and isolated. Rich Got it, but does three pairs of feeders solve that issue on a #8 turnout?
richhotrain Regardless of the feeders' location, the #8 turnout still has a dead zone at the frog. That's because the frog is fully gapped and isolated. Rich
Regardless of the feeders' location, the #8 turnout still has a dead zone at the frog.
That's because the frog is fully gapped and isolated.
Rich
Got it, but does three pairs of feeders solve that issue on a #8 turnout?
Alton Junction
Mike: Is that on a #8 turnout where you don't have an engine stall? If so, how?
kasskaboose Regardless of the feeders' location, the #8 turnout still has a dead zone at the frog.
I use six feeders per turnout, including one on each point rail.A lot of work, yes, but once installed I never had an engine stall on a turnout.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
To update everyone: Thanks for the helpful responses. I realized that the #6 and #4 turnouts now get power. Adding a track nail to the turnout keeps it flat to the cork, so the wheels make complete contact.
Yes, I only had joiners providing power to the turnouts. That stopped after putting in feeders at the base of the turnouts.
Regardless of the feeders' location, the #8 turnout still has a dead zone at the frog. Also, the frog is longer than the trucks on my two SD 40-2 locos, so the #8 turnouts need snap switches
Does it makes no sense replace them with #6 turnouts? The cost of each turnout $14 compared to $10 for a snap switch. The additional cost of the turnouts and time to adjust the track lengths are not worth the effort. Correct?
I connect feeders to the joiners at the workbench, then install them at each leg of the turnout. The abutting flex track ties have been removed allowing me to feed each pair of feeders through a hole in the roadbed/subroadbed between the rails. Make the feeders long enough to attach them to the bus wire near the fascia. This can all be done while standing up. Solder the rail joiners with feeders to all track, but try to make it so you can unsolder them and slide them onto the flex track if you ever have to remove the turnout. Slide the ties back in around the wires and ballast.
- Douglas
rrinker richhotrain So, is he wiring feeders to the rail joiners rather than to the turnout itself? Rich Sure, why not?
richhotrain So, is he wiring feeders to the rail joiners rather than to the turnout itself? Rich
So, is he wiring feeders to the rail joiners rather than to the turnout itself?
Sure, why not?
On my last layout, I soldered feeders to the bottom of rail joiners. Over time, rail joiners loosened, ballasting glue mix got inside them, and I had constant power losses all over the layout.
Sure, why not? My last two layouts were built that way, and I never had a problem. Even after painting all the rails - including the joiners - no point in painting the rails if every 3 feet or so there are shiny spots. The difference though - the joiners I used with power feeds to them were NOT the least bit loose fitting. I have a seperate stack of joiners used for test fitting track prior to securing it in place - those fit pretty loosely, making it easy to slip the track on and off to test fit and get it cut to length. When it's time to then attach the track with the feeders and fasten it down - the feeder joiners are all ones I made up using fresh, never used joiners. Some have the joiners also soldered to the rails, but none of the ones on the turnouts ever did.
MisterBeasley I wonder about the point rails. They are longer than the frogs and, as I recall, they are powered through the pivot rivet. That is a questionable connection to begin with and can become loose or dirty. You might try adding jumper wires.
I wonder about the point rails. They are longer than the frogs and, as I recall, they are powered through the pivot rivet. That is a questionable connection to begin with and can become loose or dirty. You might try adding jumper wires.
he newer ones aren't rivets liek days of old - at least not the Code 83 ones. I even painted around the pad in the pivot area of all mine and still had power flowing in the point rails. Couldn't hurt to add a jumper between the closure rail and the point rail though. Just a bit delicate, a large blob of solder will render the points immoveable.
richhotrain zstripe As far as the #8......there is no way around it.......He must power the frog and He is working on that now. I don't have any #8 turnouts on my layout, so I am curious about this. Is it inevitable that locos will stall on on the frog on a #8 turnout unless the frog is powered? Rich
zstripe As far as the #8......there is no way around it.......He must power the frog and He is working on that now.
As far as the #8......there is no way around it.......He must power the frog and He is working on that now.
I don't have any #8 turnouts on my layout, so I am curious about this. Is it inevitable that locos will stall on on the frog on a #8 turnout unless the frog is powered?
Something big - modern AC44000's, or a steam loco that picks up with both sides of the loco and both sides of the tender probably will be ok, but look at a picture of the #8, the frog is HUGE.
My last layout was all #4s, I WAS going to power the frogs, hooked up wires to do so before installing every turnout. And then everything worked fine before I hooked anything up - so I never hooked up all those green wires.
Rich,
Look at the length of a number#8 frog area and You tell Me......short wheel base engines most definitely will need them powered. Unless You run subway cars like the Lion with 48 wheel pick-up..LOL
I would surely power them, rather than go through any problem's that arise later.
BTW: The only reason why the OP has them was the fact that He couldn't get any 6's at the time.........lesson learned.....