Besides buying buss bars and a snap switch for each turnout, any other solutions to address the "dead zone" on Atlas turnouts? The dead zone I'm referring to is the unpowered frog. For those who helped me earlier, I resolved the short. Thank you! Bravo! Howeover, whenver my locomotives go into #4, #6, and #8 turnouts, they stop once they touch the frog.
There was an earlier discussion on this topic here: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/225048.aspx. In that thread, some mention adding a screw to the frog, but is that really a substitute to not buying a relay switch? Do I really need to invest in a snap switch for each turnout? That will get quite expensive!
I understand the value of having three sets of feeders for each turnout and not depending on the joiners in providing power. I have three sets of feeders and still get the dead zone.
Much appreciated!
Although the frog on an Atlas turnout is metal, it is unpowered out of the box. This is accomplished at the factory by isolating the frog from the connecting rail segments throught the use of plastic gaps. All of the other rail segments on an Atlas turnout can be powered by wiring feeders to all three ends of the turnout.
The Atlas turnout is a non-power routing turnout which means that all of the rail segments will be powered at all times if the three ends of the turnout are wired. If you use an ohmmeter to test for continuity , you will see that there are no "dead zones" on an Atlas turnout other than the isolated frog which requires a separate power source.
Even with an unpowered frog, most locomotives should not stall on the frog because most locomotives have more than one power pickup location. Two notable exceptions are (1) very short wheelbase locomotives and (2) certain locomotives on a #8 turnout due to the sheer length of the frog.
Are you saying that all your locomotives stall on your Atlas turnouts and that they stall on all of your Atlas turnouts? Can you provide us with a list of the types of locomotives on your roster?
I have a lot of Atlas Custom Line turnouts, both #4 and #6, on my layout, and none of my locomotives stall on any turnout. I have both 4-axle and 6-axle diesels as well as a number of steam locomotives.
Rich
Alton Junction
I suspect you have some pickup problems, or a lot oof locos that only pick up from 2 wheels on each side, if they stall on a #4. Even my little GE 44 tonner negotiates unpowered Atlas #4's with no problem.
#8's are a different story, that's a big frog. Powering them (or any of the other sizes) was covered in the thread about your short. You need either a Tortoise switch motor or Atlas SNap Relays, depending on which you use, to get the contacts to connect the correct bus to the frog depending on the way the points are thrown. There are also the Tam Valley Frog Juicers which do it electronically, but cost more.
Hooking the wire to the frog is the hard part, the frogs do not take solder very well (the 8's I think have a solderable tab brought out to the side though - the 4's and 6's have a small hole). The best bet is to use a brass screw and then solder a wire to the brass screw.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker I suspect you have some pickup problems, or a lot oof locos that only pick up from 2 wheels on each side, if they stall on a #4. Even my little GE 44 tonner negotiates unpowered Atlas #4's with no problem. #8's are a different story, that's a big frog. Powering them (or any of the other sizes) was covered in the thread about your short. You need either a Tortoise switch motor or Atlas SNap Relays, depending on which you use, to get the contacts to connect the correct bus to the frog depending on the way the points are thrown. There are also the Tam Valley Frog Juicers which do it electronically, but cost more. Hooking the wire to the frog is the hard part, the frogs do not take solder very well (the 8's I think have a solderable tab brought out to the side though - the 4's and 6's have a small hole). The best bet is to use a brass screw and then solder a wire to the brass screw. --Randy
I spoke with Him last night and I covered all that You just mentioned and then some. I believe He understands better when He can speak to someone. He has some SD40-2's that are stalling at the frog....(the #4's/#6's)but I believe, that is caused by using loose fitting rail joiners at the point end.....they also have a slight gap in them. He says they are picking up power from all wheels, so that is what I base My feeling about the power issue. I convinced Him to add feeders to the point end of the turnouts and at least the two inside rails after the frog. He does not have very many feeders throughout His layout and that is contributing to most of His problem's and He's understanding that better now. As far as the #8......there is no way around it.......He must power the frog and He is working on that now.
Take Care!
Frank
zstripe I spoke with Him last night and I covered all that You just mentioned and then some. I believe He understands better when He can speak to someone. He has some SD40-2's that are stalling at the frog....(the #4's/#6's)but I believe, that is caused by using loose fitting rail joiners at the point end.....they also have a slight gap in them. He says they are picking up power from all wheels, so that is what I base My feeling about the power issue. I convinced Him to add feeders to the point end of the turnouts and at least the two inside rails after the frog. He does not have very many feeders throughout His layout and that is contributing to most of His problem's and He's understanding that better now. As far as the #8......there is no way around it.......He must power the frog and He is working on that now.
zstripe As far as the #8......there is no way around it.......He must power the frog and He is working on that now.
As far as the #8......there is no way around it.......He must power the frog and He is working on that now.
richhotrain zstripe As far as the #8......there is no way around it.......He must power the frog and He is working on that now. I don't have any #8 turnouts on my layout, so I am curious about this. Is it inevitable that locos will stall on on the frog on a #8 turnout unless the frog is powered? Rich
I don't have any #8 turnouts on my layout, so I am curious about this. Is it inevitable that locos will stall on on the frog on a #8 turnout unless the frog is powered?
Rich,
Look at the length of a number#8 frog area and You tell Me......short wheel base engines most definitely will need them powered. Unless You run subway cars like the Lion with 48 wheel pick-up..LOL
I would surely power them, rather than go through any problem's that arise later.
BTW: The only reason why the OP has them was the fact that He couldn't get any 6's at the time.........lesson learned.....
I wonder about the point rails. They are longer than the frogs and, as I recall, they are powered through the pivot rivet. That is a questionable connection to begin with and can become loose or dirty. You might try adding jumper wires.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Something big - modern AC44000's, or a steam loco that picks up with both sides of the loco and both sides of the tender probably will be ok, but look at a picture of the #8, the frog is HUGE.
My last layout was all #4s, I WAS going to power the frogs, hooked up wires to do so before installing every turnout. And then everything worked fine before I hooked anything up - so I never hooked up all those green wires.
MisterBeasley I wonder about the point rails. They are longer than the frogs and, as I recall, they are powered through the pivot rivet. That is a questionable connection to begin with and can become loose or dirty. You might try adding jumper wires.
he newer ones aren't rivets liek days of old - at least not the Code 83 ones. I even painted around the pad in the pivot area of all mine and still had power flowing in the point rails. Couldn't hurt to add a jumper between the closure rail and the point rail though. Just a bit delicate, a large blob of solder will render the points immoveable.
richhotrain So, is he wiring feeders to the rail joiners rather than to the turnout itself? Rich
So, is he wiring feeders to the rail joiners rather than to the turnout itself?
Sure, why not? My last two layouts were built that way, and I never had a problem. Even after painting all the rails - including the joiners - no point in painting the rails if every 3 feet or so there are shiny spots. The difference though - the joiners I used with power feeds to them were NOT the least bit loose fitting. I have a seperate stack of joiners used for test fitting track prior to securing it in place - those fit pretty loosely, making it easy to slip the track on and off to test fit and get it cut to length. When it's time to then attach the track with the feeders and fasten it down - the feeder joiners are all ones I made up using fresh, never used joiners. Some have the joiners also soldered to the rails, but none of the ones on the turnouts ever did.
rrinker richhotrain So, is he wiring feeders to the rail joiners rather than to the turnout itself? Rich Sure, why not?
Sure, why not?
On my last layout, I soldered feeders to the bottom of rail joiners. Over time, rail joiners loosened, ballasting glue mix got inside them, and I had constant power losses all over the layout.
I connect feeders to the joiners at the workbench, then install them at each leg of the turnout. The abutting flex track ties have been removed allowing me to feed each pair of feeders through a hole in the roadbed/subroadbed between the rails. Make the feeders long enough to attach them to the bus wire near the fascia. This can all be done while standing up. Solder the rail joiners with feeders to all track, but try to make it so you can unsolder them and slide them onto the flex track if you ever have to remove the turnout. Slide the ties back in around the wires and ballast.
- Douglas
To update everyone: Thanks for the helpful responses. I realized that the #6 and #4 turnouts now get power. Adding a track nail to the turnout keeps it flat to the cork, so the wheels make complete contact.
Yes, I only had joiners providing power to the turnouts. That stopped after putting in feeders at the base of the turnouts.
Regardless of the feeders' location, the #8 turnout still has a dead zone at the frog. Also, the frog is longer than the trucks on my two SD 40-2 locos, so the #8 turnouts need snap switches
Does it makes no sense replace them with #6 turnouts? The cost of each turnout $14 compared to $10 for a snap switch. The additional cost of the turnouts and time to adjust the track lengths are not worth the effort. Correct?
I use six feeders per turnout, including one on each point rail.A lot of work, yes, but once installed I never had an engine stall on a turnout.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
kasskaboose Regardless of the feeders' location, the #8 turnout still has a dead zone at the frog.
Regardless of the feeders' location, the #8 turnout still has a dead zone at the frog.
Mike: Is that on a #8 turnout where you don't have an engine stall? If so, how?
richhotrain Regardless of the feeders' location, the #8 turnout still has a dead zone at the frog. That's because the frog is fully gapped and isolated. Rich
That's because the frog is fully gapped and isolated.
Got it, but does three pairs of feeders solve that issue on a #8 turnout?
kasskaboose richhotrain Regardless of the feeders' location, the #8 turnout still has a dead zone at the frog. That's because the frog is fully gapped and isolated. Rich Got it, but does three pairs of feeders solve that issue on a #8 turnout?
The hex frog juicer services 6 frogs. It's not a discount solution, but I would call it an elegant solution to provide changing polarities to the frog.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Henry,
What a great idea about the juicer. What type would I need? Here are two general kinds:
http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/dccfrogjuicers.html
For four #8 turnouts, the cost of a snap switch is more than a juicer. Also, I don't have to wire four different turnouts. The instructions seem "plug n' play"
kasskaboose Henry, What a great idea about the juicer. What type would I need? Here are two general kinds: http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/dccfrogjuicers.html For four #8 turnouts, the cost of a snap switch is more than a juicer. Also, I don't have to wire four different turnouts. The instructions seem "plug n' play"
Disclaimer, I haven't needed them on my layout, though future construction with the Atlas curved turnout may change that. I've not read anything bad about them, but I'm sure some members must use them.
You can find better prices if you shop around, though I have never ordered from Traintek, Fast Tracks, I have at least heard of.
There are 3 types a single a dual and a hex. Less than 4 means a dual and a single, or a dual or a single, or a hex if you plan on future expansions.
An Atlas Snap switch relay is only $10 at modeltrainstuff.
BigDaddyAn Atlas Snap switch is only $10 at modeltrainstuff.
It's a Atlas snap relay.....not a snap switch, there is a big differance in the name.
https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/search?search_query_adv=atlas+snap+relay
Easier for Him to wire, than a Frog juicer......and it is cheaper at 10 dollars apiece.
They are not just plug & play.
Frank I knew that, my fingers did not.
I have four Hex frog Juicers. They work flawlessly and are VERY simple to install and wire. Actually easier than a snap Relay since each (hex) Frog Juicer has two input wires, six output. Snap relays would have three actuator wires for the twin-coils, two N and S track wires and one frog wire.
Hex Frog Juicer, total wires = 8
Six Snap Relays, total wires = 36
Hex Frog Juicer at Litchfield Station: $66. ($11/frog)
Six Snap Relays @ $10. ea. $60. tax, shipping not calculated
Also, if throwing multiple Atlas solenoids, say four in a crossover situation, a CD unit may be needed, in addition, to kick all four solenoids at once. (Maybe one Snap Relay can be used to power two frogs at a crossover, though, reducing the number to three?)
Frog Juicers are DCC ONLY. I did not see the OP state he is running DCC. *Maybe he did and I missed it? *He did and I did
Some of the Atlas points are a plated pot metal, very shiny (and very fragile). Like the frog, impossible to solder to.
Cheers, Ed
The OP has had a couple previous threads where he said DCC.
Thanks, Henry. I tried to find other threads but couldn't. The one he linked to didn't say.
So a Hex Frog Juicer is still in the running
Regards, Ed
Frog Juicers are far easier to wire than the Snap Relay. With a Snap Relay, you need to make sure you have the two feeders connected to the correct terminals t the frog polarity is correct. If it's not, you get a short, and need to swap the two wires. Frog Juicer, just hook two wires to the bus, and then one wire to each frog. 6 frogs, 8 wires to hook up, and the order of the two wires to the bus do not matter one bit. Snap Relays, 6 frogs, 36 wires, and the order of 2 of the wires to each relay matters. Yes, 36 wires - the 3 that control the coil, same as with the Atlas switch motors, 2 wires to the power bus, and one wire to the frog - PER Snap Relay.
And Frog Juicers are switch motor agnostic - Atlas solenoids, peco solenoids, Tortoise, Blue Point, Caboose ground throws, even the home made over center spring that's been shown in the model press - doesn't matter how you actually control the points.
Frog Juicer 100% solid state, too.
If an Atlas Snap Relay doesn't throw (mechanical solenoid, pin-in-slot, brass contacts) you'll get a short, or if somebody throws the switch manually without also throwing the relay. Could happen.
I put my first HFJ in over five years ago. set it — forget it. LED indicators if needed are on the board for status state.
Thanks for the explanation about the juicer and it's advantages over the Atlas Snap Switch. I like that its' much smaller, easier to wire, and more tech-like than the Atlas.
One question with the juicer: can I use 16 gauge wire or must I use 20+? I don't want to fry the frog but would prefer not to buy 20+ gauge wire just for the juicers.
While I regret having to buy something else for the turnouts, I would rather not have to commit to more wiring.