The best way to have both DC and DCC on one layout is to wire a center-off DPDT switch, one side DC, one side DCC, layout one or the other BUT NEVER, EVER both at once!
All it takes to smoke a decoder is a moment's inattention.
To add to my earlier comments, if I ever decide to scrap my HOj plans and simply build one (or both) of my 762mm gauge prototypes in On30, I would go DCC in a heartbeat. It really is better if the crew is going to be moving along with the train.
I would still cut all the gaps needed for DC operation. Even if you don't install lineside signals, having ABS collision-avoidance would need all the detection blocks. A drop to each isolated rail section is a small price to pay for not having to put the hamhooks into the scenery later - and then you will need the drops anyway. Lots easier to install as part of initial construction.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
BigDaddy Old Schools idea, if not absolutely bulletproof and goof proof, might allow a loco to bridge the DC and DCC systems and fry your DCC system.
Old Schools idea, if not absolutely bulletproof and goof proof, might allow a loco to bridge the DC and DCC systems and fry your DCC system.
Rich
Alton Junction
OldSchoolScratchbuilder Bradd: I am in the early stages of developing ideas for HO layouts. I am new to the hobby but have spent several months reading almost a thousand model railroad magazine issues in my growing hardcopy library (mostly MR and RMC from 1960s to present). I have 40 years experience studying and building electronic circuits so that part of the hobby interests me. What I am leaning towards with my purchases is a hybrid DC/DCC layout where each yard would have some DCC locomotives, mainly for sound effects but also relatively short electrically-isolated lines. The remainder of the layout primarily DC. The overall layout design would allow locomotives to exchange rolling stock between the two track types. The main reason I am thinking this way is cost - I am retired so not as much income as in my working years. I like high-end rolling stock and die-cast vehicles so to afford these, I buy good used affordable DC locomotives and just a few expensive DCC locomotives. DJ
Bradd: I am in the early stages of developing ideas for HO layouts. I am new to the hobby but have spent several months reading almost a thousand model railroad magazine issues in my growing hardcopy library (mostly MR and RMC from 1960s to present). I have 40 years experience studying and building electronic circuits so that part of the hobby interests me.
What I am leaning towards with my purchases is a hybrid DC/DCC layout where each yard would have some DCC locomotives, mainly for sound effects but also relatively short electrically-isolated lines. The remainder of the layout primarily DC. The overall layout design would allow locomotives to exchange rolling stock between the two track types.
The main reason I am thinking this way is cost - I am retired so not as much income as in my working years. I like high-end rolling stock and die-cast vehicles so to afford these, I buy good used affordable DC locomotives and just a few expensive DCC locomotives. DJ
I understand the urge to run both DC and DCC on the same layout for someone who has accumulated a lot of DC locomotives and now wishes to switch to DCC. But for someone starting out, especially with little or no operating experience, to make a conscious decision to wire a layout for both DC and DCC makes no sense.
You would be better off to choose one or the other and stick to that choice.
We have no problems with the wireless DCC system at club shows. Over the years there were two issues. First, we had to switch to the Digitrax Duplex system that uses 2.4GHz frequencies because NCE's 900 Mhz system is far too 'chatty' and swamps any other nearby system using the same frequency band. Second, I had to tell them not to put the microwave we use for heating lunches right next to the radio mast. That one took an actual demonstration before anyone believed me - everything was fine until someone went to heat up a cup of coffee and everyone lost control. After that the microwave was moved to a table at the other end of the layout. At venues where we are alone, no other clubs showing, we still use the old radios along with the new ones since they still work fine.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I use DC at home because none of my locomotives have decoders installed yet. I use DCC at the club because DC is not very practical for a modular layout that is different at every setup. Therefore, NCE DCC is the agreed on modular standard for our club.
If you are a one train at a time person on your home layout, either DC or DCC is fine. It's probably easier to go with what your locomotives are equipped for.
If you have mulitple operators running multiple trains simultaneously, it depends on your operating style.
DCC sets you up for walk-around control, with each engineer responsible for their own track clearance (see and avoid is the term used in aviation). No dispatcher needed (or usually wanted).
If you want a rules-based track permission operating scheme (much like Class 1 railroads use), DC lends itself to that.
Single operator/mulitiple trains - I don't go there. So I have no advice.
Fred W
Old school's idea will work. It means that locos will not be able to be exchanged between the two districts except by hand.
BraddW25 Railpro does look very interesting. However I didn't see any N scale decoders. I only saw them for HO. Do you know if they make N scale decoders and perhaps I just wasn't looking in the right place? Thanks, Bradd
Railpro does look very interesting. However I didn't see any N scale decoders. I only saw them for HO. Do you know if they make N scale decoders and perhaps I just wasn't looking in the right place?
Thanks,
Bradd
RailPro is great for HO and S scale but not an option at this time for N scale.
Alan
Freelancing the LK&O Railroad
BigDaddy Old Schools idea, if not absolutely bulletproof and goof proof, might allow a loco to bridge the DC and DCC systems and fry your DCC system. Some manufacturers recommend against running DC locos on DCC. I think it's the higher voltage they are exposed to on DCC. https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-with-dc
Some manufacturers recommend against running DC locos on DCC. I think it's the higher voltage they are exposed to on DCC.
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-with-dc
There will be a length of dead track between the DC and DCC exchange point (between two turnouts) much longer than any locomotive, so it will be impossible for a loco to cross over even with decelerating momentum from top speed. In fact, several coupled cars will be required for the exchange because of the dead track's length. I have already tried this from DC-deadzone-DC and none of my locos can bridge the gap when the Kato brake is applied.
PS. The dead zone track's rails will either be plastic or wood.
Our club was built in the early 1980's. Common rail, fourteen blocks, one reverse loop, four throttles. All hand laid including turnouts. Looked nice but not quite prototypical. Code 100 and a spike every so often. Three foot sections of track look a lot better when we expaned into another room.
Some years ago when we went to DCC I did a lot of wiring for DCC. Made a little chair that reclines and close to the floor to do wiring. What a pain.
\We had to cut gaps for the reverse loop. Added a couple crossovers and had to cut gaps.
Do it for DCC now.
If I had to do it now I would go wiring free with RailPro or a similar system.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
DCC suport for DC locos is dependent on which DCC system you use. Digitrax supports a DC loco on address 00, NCE does not. I believe one other system supports 00 but off hand can't recall which one. Be advised that the DC loco will not run as well on address 00 and probably will emmit a whining sound. while it is possible to do this it is not highly recommended, but you can do it. Also having DC and DCC sections of your layout on at the same time can lead to trouble. Should a metal wheel set, be it loco or rolling stock, bridge the gap between the DC side and the DCC side, you stand an excellent chance of frying the DCC system, and as you plan to have the two systems meet at the yards it increases the chances of a unpleasent occurance. I recommend that you not set up your layout this way. If you want the option of running DC and DCC, having a switch that selects either DC or DCC, but not both, for the entire layout is by far the safest way to go.
BraddW25 That is a very interesting approach. And it leads to my next question that i was goign to ask. Is it difficult to run DC locos on a DCC system? I have a lot of DC locomotives and while I will probably eventually install decoders in at least some of them, I'm not sure I want to spend the money and effort to convert them all. I do have some that are already DCC and some Kato's that are DCC ready so they will be the first to get decoders if I decide to go that route. It would be nice to be able to run some of the other locos that are not so simple to install a decoder in though.
That is a very interesting approach. And it leads to my next question that i was goign to ask. Is it difficult to run DC locos on a DCC system? I have a lot of DC locomotives and while I will probably eventually install decoders in at least some of them, I'm not sure I want to spend the money and effort to convert them all. I do have some that are already DCC and some Kato's that are DCC ready so they will be the first to get decoders if I decide to go that route. It would be nice to be able to run some of the other locos that are not so simple to install a decoder in though.
It is possible and not too difficult, but I think you can run only one DC loco at a time. Non-decoder locos are assigned address 0. And, I think when some (other) loco passes an auto-reverser, the DC locos in the reversing section will suddenly reverse directions. Others might have more info.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
SouthPennDidn't you give the locomotive an address?
Sure, but I didn't need to manually set a CV.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama SouthPenn Install the decoder in an engine, apply power to track, run trains. NO CVs to program!! I've run a lot of DCC engines and never manually programmed a CV, either.
SouthPenn Install the decoder in an engine, apply power to track, run trains. NO CVs to program!!
I've run a lot of DCC engines and never manually programmed a CV, either.
Didn't you give the locomotive an address?
With RailPro, no addressing is necessary.
SouthPennInstall the decoder in an engine, apply power to track, run trains. NO CVs to program!!
Thanks again to everyone who shared their experience. Very good food for thought as I proceed with this project.
BATMAN I only have one thing to say on the subject and that is "go wireless". I have yet to meet someone that hates his wireless system.
I only have one thing to say on the subject and that is "go wireless". I have yet to meet someone that hates his wireless system.
Meet your first. Wireless DCC may be fine on a home layout. But it's not so great on a modular layout at train shows. I have yet to see a wireless setup at a train show work consistently from set up to the end of the show. Just too much competition for the same ether, along with all kinds of metal structure (poles, ceiling, etc). Since my modules have to have wired jacks to remain operational at shows, I needn't bother with the expense of wireless at home.
Plugging and unplugging is not a big deal since I'm not operating roundy-roundy at scale 60MPH. Way freight switching and 20 scale MPH speeds are my norms.
just my thoughts and experiences
...modeling foggy coastal Oregon in HO and HOn3, where it's always 1900...
I would take a look at RailPro instead of DCC. Much easier to install. Install the decoder in an engine, apply power to track, run trains. NO CVs to program!!
The hand held controller works and looks like a smart phone.
RailPro is wireless right out of the box. Nothing extra to buy. You do not pay extra for wireless either.
Starting from scratch, there is no reason to NOT use DCC.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
My initial thought is that this thread really belongs in the Electronics and DCC forum... EDIT To whoever moved it, thank you.
That said, DCC or some form of analog DC is a personal choice. Some swear by one or the other, some swear at one or the other. Everyone is right.
My own choice, made before DCC became the electronic control standard, is analog DC and a modified form of Ed Ravenscroft's MZL system. MZL substitutes contacts slaved to point actuators for most of the usual DC block selectors, which complicates the wiring but simplifies the panels. Operatng with several train crews in full CTC mode, all the engineers have to do is obey the timetable and signal indications - the DS handles power assignments for them.
I, personally, prefer being a dispatcher. I don't want to operate A train. I want to be able to handle three, four or a half-dozen trains, all moving at the same time. MZL has a 'fire and forget' capability that allows me to do that, at the price of a couple of cheap resistors and a dime diode where DCC would require a special circuit board and lines of computer code (which I don't know how to write) to get the same result - at every place where a train has to make an automatic stop.
For me, being able to operate two railroads on one layout trumps being able to micro-manage a single train. If this be heresy, so be it.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - my way)
fender777I like DCC ' but I would avoid suitcase connectors. My first DCC layout I used them and had many problems. But now I just use solder joints from the bus to the feeders and 10 times better. Digital trains like clean track also it seems for me. Just my opinion.
I've seen some long threads on those and it seemed it was about 50% for and 50% against. I used them on my last layout and they worked very well. Of course if you use them correctly, they should work just fine. Like anything, used incorrectly results will be less than expected.
Clean track is something everyone can agree with. "keep alive" isn't a bad idea, especially on short wheelbased engines. Hopefully some day all HO engines will have a built in 1-2 second keep alive.
That is a no-brainer!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Hello all,
BraddW25So is DCC worth the additional expense compared to a DC system?
On my 4'x8' pike I ran DC with 16-blocks and 24 turnouts.
Attempting to run two trains was like juggling bowling balls and adding switching maneuvers was even worse.
When I switched to DCC the amount of copper wire I harvested, and now is unused, could have gone to offset the cost of the DCC system.
I kept the turnouts DC powered by a walwart to a CDU.
Go wireless DCC right off the bat!
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Someone on this forum once wrote a post on how he could now do switching while he was sitting on the throne. While my wife and kids may get browned off at me doing that, it is nice to be able to have control while getting a drink at the trainroom bar.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Choops One thing to think about is that if you do go with DCC you may want to relook at the design of your layout. With DCC you really dont need the three seperate loops to run the trains. You can run more than one train on any track. So one can be running while you run another from passing siding to passing siding in the oposite direction. Less track = less$ and more room for scenery. Steve
One thing to think about is that if you do go with DCC you may want to relook at the design of your layout. With DCC you really dont need the three seperate loops to run the trains. You can run more than one train on any track. So one can be running while you run another from passing siding to passing siding in the oposite direction.
Less track = less$ and more room for scenery.
Steve
Steve, thanks for the input. I should clarify that the track sections I described would not be physically seperate. I was talking about electrically isolating them if I decided to go that route. They are all physically connected and could easily be wired as one DCC layout.
To me, if you operate alone DC seems better because you can easily switch which trains you are controlling just by the flip of a SPDT block control switch. You can park a train on a siding and then drive another train past it without reprogramming anything. If you want to add helpers you just add them.
DCC is better when you have several operators at once, or you literally want all of the bells and whistles, and the lights. In my opinion that is where DCC is better for the lone operator. I could care less for the sound. I often just listen to music instead. The lights are cool but not that important to me.
There are walk around throttles available for both systems so that part doesn’t matter.