Hello all,
I am in the very early stages of constructing what will be my 4th and by far most ambitious N scale layout. Benchwork construction has just begun in the 20' X 20" basement addition that was recently added to our home. My other layouts have been relatively small. This one is going to be an around the room layout with a large L shaped peninsula. My question for the group is what are your thoughts on Digital Command Control? I have personally never used DCC, but am very interested in exploring it's usage. Any pitfalls I should avoid? Any other advice from those who have more experience in DCC? I should add, that the wiring does not worry me either way as I have a lot of experience with electricity. So is DCC worth the additional expense compared to a DC system? Thanks very much for any input.
Bradd
Go for it. In my view controlling the loco instead of the track is the way to go. Many folks on the site have DC and are very happy with it, but starting out with a clean slate as you appear to be doing is the ideal time to install a DCC system. Wiring is less complicated and the ability to control the locos without using blocks is in my view a plus. DCC is more sensitive to dirty track conditions and generally will require keeping the track cleaner than with a DC system. Suggest you read up on the various systems, although Digitrax and NCE are the most popular, other systems do exist. I, like you, started a new layout in '06 and jumped into DCC at the start. Have not regretted it for a minute. Other posters will jump in with their ideas, pro or con, and will give you more information. Guys on this site can be a big help as you progress.
Any medium to large layout can greatly benefit from DCC, unless you want to control trains using power blocks and controls etc. Some old school people operate larger layout DC and prefer it, so the question if DCC is worth it or not is partly a personal one and one you will have to decide.
I've always been open to techie things and I've owned a Digitrax Chief system for a long time but unfortunately most of that time, due to a long separation and divorce, no layout space. I have used it on and off during the past 5 years with a modular group and the knowledge experts keep having to show me how to consist engines and work the controls over and over and over. Maybe I'm a little slow on the uptake or maybe the way Digitrax works just isn't "clicking" for me.
Moral of the above story, try to use a few different systems and see what "gels" for you, what is easiest for you to configure and use. Otherwise DC block controls might seem easier to some. I like the idea of controlling my trains and not power blocks but I'm thinking I need to try another system or two like NCE and see if that makes more sense for me.
In the end, the DC or DCC and if DCC, which system, it boils down to what is right for you. No one can answer that question for you.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Bradd:
I use Dc/block control/three walkaround throttles at home. At the club we use DCC with tethered throttles.
If you are going to have multi-person operating sessions the cost of block controls is expensive, and the rotary switches do wear out.
A medium amout of knowledge about DCC will alow you to get started. Engines can be added as desired, and extra throttles to permit visitors/operators come later. If you are a club member, buy the system the club uses, some members will have throttles to bring if they come to your place.
If I started over I would go DCC from the start, the club I'm in used Digitrax, so that would be my system of choice.
Hope these ramblings help.
Dave
There's nooothing too difficult about DCC, really. Too many people get caught up in technical-sounding terms and put up a mental block when in fact it's easy to learn to operate your locos with DCC. My ex father-in-law managed to run his trains even when I wasn't around, and he is a retired railroader, not an engineer. N scale, depending ont he locos, can be hard to install DCC in, but there are drop in replacement boards for lots of more recent (20-25 year old) locos. Even if not - a friend of mine, a lawyer, not an engineer, has scratch built N scale steam locos and installed decoders in them just fine - much tinier soldering work under the Optivisor than I would even feel comfortable with. And he's DCC'd his layout with mostly just having some questions answered.
Just the fact that you can freely run any loco anywhere with no additional controls or wiring makes it all worthwhile. I was hooked as a kid just reading about the old GE ASTRAC system, which was the first commercial command control system and QUITE primitive by DCC standards. Many vendors came and went, but finally witht he DCC standards adopted by the NMRA it took off. You aren't restricted to just one vendor's products. Use Digitrax DCC, but Digitrax doesn't have a drop-in decoder for that loco? No problem, just use the TCS one.
No, it's not just "2 wires to the rails" unless you have a trivial oval layout. The same sort of considerations such as gaps for power routing turnouts and reverse loops come in to play for DCC just like DC. The difference is, all the feeders connect to the same bus. There are no other power controlling devices (except for reverse loops), either manual or automatic, to connect a given throttle to a section of track. Digitrax's slogan is a good one for DCC in general - run your trains, not your track. Instead of controlling the track and therefore the train that picks up power from the track, you are directly controlling the train itself, power is always present in the rails. That's really as much as you need to understand - the details of how those signals control the loco and all that are things you can explore if curious but are absolutely not necessary to understand to be able to implement DCC. What you need to know is the same basic electricity principles you need to wire the layout for DC power. DCC lets you do all sorts of neat things to adjust the operation of each loco in a very fine grained manner. Nice to have but not required to know just to do basic setup and run trains. All you really need to know is how to set an address for each loco. You can learn all the fine tweaking settings later - or never.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
A lot depends on how you plan to operate. If you're going to operate from a central location and run trains on seperate loops of track while you sit back and watch, then DC is probably just fine. OTOH if you plan to walk around with the train and/or have other trains share the same tracks then DCC might be the better bet.
Personally, I love the wireless DCC throttle that I have for running my trains, even when it's just me running just one train. The ability to walk around with the train on a 12x31 foot layout is great. OTOH my 6x12 Lionel layout is run from one place with separate loops for each train so DCC or other command system is not really needed.
Paul
Thanks for all the replies so far. Very good information and very much appreciated. I have heard from other folks that it is much easier to install DCC on a new layout as it is being built than to try to retrofit a layout that was constructed for DC operation.
As far as how I plan to operate, I will for the most part be operating the layout solo as I do not belong to any club. It's possible that I might have a couple friends on occasion, but for the most part I will be flying solo. My layout is going to be a continuous double track loop with a hidden staging yard. There is also a branch line. So in reality I suppose there are 3 seperate loops if you count both the main tracks and the branch where trains could be run seperately from one another if I just wanted to sit and watch them run. I do very much however, like the idea of being able to walk along with a single train that I am operating and to be able to quickly gain control of other trains in case I need to stop one of them in order to avoid colliding with the train I'm running in the event it needs to change tracks or move onto the branch line. Am I safe in assuming that DCC would allow for a more efficient means of being able to walk around with a hand held throttle and have the ability to quickly switch to control of a different train if the need arises? I would think that such control would be nearly impossible with a DC block system. Thanks again for all the info.
BraddW25 Am I safe in assuming that DCC would allow for a more efficient means of being able to walk around with a hand held throttle and have the ability to quickly switch to control of a different train if the need arises? I would think that such control would be nearly impossible with a DC block system. Thanks again for all the info. Bradd
Am I safe in assuming that DCC would allow for a more efficient means of being able to walk around with a hand held throttle and have the ability to quickly switch to control of a different train if the need arises? I would think that such control would be nearly impossible with a DC block system. Thanks again for all the info.
One thing to think about is that if you do go with DCC you may want to relook at the design of your layout. With DCC you really dont need the three seperate loops to run the trains. You can run more than one train on any track. So one can be running while you run another from passing siding to passing siding in the oposite direction.
Less track = less$ and more room for scenery.
Steve
Simply stated, DC routes and controls the power, whereas DCC lets you control the engine, with some added features you won´t get with DC.
Finally, it´s a matter of personal preference. If you picture yourself in the role of a dispatcher, then DC will be fine. If you feel more at home in the engineer´s seat, DCC would be the better choice.
I am a DC only guy, but just for reasons of economy. My layout is just a simple oval with a dead end siding - a 1 loco per time job, so DCC would be an overkill.
Brad,Several years back I stated a one horse switching layout didn't need DCC..After using DCC on my last 1'x12' ISL I will freely admit I was wrong.
With DCC you can fine turn your engines and if you use sound you can get full benefits.
IMHO DCC is the better control choice.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
To me, if you operate alone DC seems better because you can easily switch which trains you are controlling just by the flip of a SPDT block control switch. You can park a train on a siding and then drive another train past it without reprogramming anything. If you want to add helpers you just add them.
DCC is better when you have several operators at once, or you literally want all of the bells and whistles, and the lights. In my opinion that is where DCC is better for the lone operator. I could care less for the sound. I often just listen to music instead. The lights are cool but not that important to me.
There are walk around throttles available for both systems so that part doesn’t matter.
Choops One thing to think about is that if you do go with DCC you may want to relook at the design of your layout. With DCC you really dont need the three seperate loops to run the trains. You can run more than one train on any track. So one can be running while you run another from passing siding to passing siding in the oposite direction. Less track = less$ and more room for scenery. Steve
Steve, thanks for the input. I should clarify that the track sections I described would not be physically seperate. I was talking about electrically isolating them if I decided to go that route. They are all physically connected and could easily be wired as one DCC layout.
I only have one thing to say on the subject and that is "go wireless". I have yet to meet someone that hates his wireless system.
Someone on this forum once wrote a post on how he could now do switching while he was sitting on the throne. While my wife and kids may get browned off at me doing that, it is nice to be able to have control while getting a drink at the trainroom bar.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BraddW25So is DCC worth the additional expense compared to a DC system?
On my 4'x8' pike I ran DC with 16-blocks and 24 turnouts.
Attempting to run two trains was like juggling bowling balls and adding switching maneuvers was even worse.
When I switched to DCC the amount of copper wire I harvested, and now is unused, could have gone to offset the cost of the DCC system.
I kept the turnouts DC powered by a walwart to a CDU.
Go wireless DCC right off the bat!
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
fender777I like DCC ' but I would avoid suitcase connectors. My first DCC layout I used them and had many problems. But now I just use solder joints from the bus to the feeders and 10 times better. Digital trains like clean track also it seems for me. Just my opinion.
I've seen some long threads on those and it seemed it was about 50% for and 50% against. I used them on my last layout and they worked very well. Of course if you use them correctly, they should work just fine. Like anything, used incorrectly results will be less than expected.
Clean track is something everyone can agree with. "keep alive" isn't a bad idea, especially on short wheelbased engines. Hopefully some day all HO engines will have a built in 1-2 second keep alive.
That is a no-brainer!
My initial thought is that this thread really belongs in the Electronics and DCC forum... EDIT To whoever moved it, thank you.
That said, DCC or some form of analog DC is a personal choice. Some swear by one or the other, some swear at one or the other. Everyone is right.
My own choice, made before DCC became the electronic control standard, is analog DC and a modified form of Ed Ravenscroft's MZL system. MZL substitutes contacts slaved to point actuators for most of the usual DC block selectors, which complicates the wiring but simplifies the panels. Operatng with several train crews in full CTC mode, all the engineers have to do is obey the timetable and signal indications - the DS handles power assignments for them.
I, personally, prefer being a dispatcher. I don't want to operate A train. I want to be able to handle three, four or a half-dozen trains, all moving at the same time. MZL has a 'fire and forget' capability that allows me to do that, at the price of a couple of cheap resistors and a dime diode where DCC would require a special circuit board and lines of computer code (which I don't know how to write) to get the same result - at every place where a train has to make an automatic stop.
For me, being able to operate two railroads on one layout trumps being able to micro-manage a single train. If this be heresy, so be it.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - my way)
Starting from scratch, there is no reason to NOT use DCC.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
I would take a look at RailPro instead of DCC. Much easier to install. Install the decoder in an engine, apply power to track, run trains. NO CVs to program!!
The hand held controller works and looks like a smart phone.
RailPro is wireless right out of the box. Nothing extra to buy. You do not pay extra for wireless either.
Railpro does look very interesting. However I didn't see any N scale decoders. I only saw them for HO. Do you know if they make N scale decoders and perhaps I just wasn't looking in the right place?
Thanks,
BATMAN I only have one thing to say on the subject and that is "go wireless". I have yet to meet someone that hates his wireless system.
Meet your first. Wireless DCC may be fine on a home layout. But it's not so great on a modular layout at train shows. I have yet to see a wireless setup at a train show work consistently from set up to the end of the show. Just too much competition for the same ether, along with all kinds of metal structure (poles, ceiling, etc). Since my modules have to have wired jacks to remain operational at shows, I needn't bother with the expense of wireless at home.
Plugging and unplugging is not a big deal since I'm not operating roundy-roundy at scale 60MPH. Way freight switching and 20 scale MPH speeds are my norms.
just my thoughts and experiences
Fred W
...modeling foggy coastal Oregon in HO and HOn3, where it's always 1900...
Thanks again to everyone who shared their experience. Very good food for thought as I proceed with this project.
SouthPennInstall the decoder in an engine, apply power to track, run trains. NO CVs to program!!
I've run a lot of DCC engines and never manually programmed a CV, either.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama SouthPenn Install the decoder in an engine, apply power to track, run trains. NO CVs to program!! I've run a lot of DCC engines and never manually programmed a CV, either.
SouthPenn Install the decoder in an engine, apply power to track, run trains. NO CVs to program!!
Didn't you give the locomotive an address?
With RailPro, no addressing is necessary.
SouthPennDidn't you give the locomotive an address?
Sure, but I didn't need to manually set a CV.
Bradd: I am in the early stages of developing ideas for HO layouts. I am new to the hobby but have spent several months reading almost a thousand model railroad magazine issues in my growing hardcopy library (mostly MR and RMC from 1960s to present). I have 40 years experience studying and building electronic circuits so that part of the hobby interests me.
What I am leaning towards with my purchases is a hybrid DC/DCC layout where each yard would have some DCC locomotives, mainly for sound effects but also relatively short electrically-isolated lines. The remainder of the layout primarily DC. The overall layout design would allow locomotives to exchange rolling stock between the two track types.
The main reason I am thinking this way is cost - I am retired so not as much income as in my working years. I like high-end rolling stock and die-cast vehicles so to afford these, I buy good used affordable DC locomotives and just a few expensive DCC locomotives. DJ
That is a very interesting approach. And it leads to my next question that i was goign to ask. Is it difficult to run DC locos on a DCC system? I have a lot of DC locomotives and while I will probably eventually install decoders in at least some of them, I'm not sure I want to spend the money and effort to convert them all. I do have some that are already DCC and some Kato's that are DCC ready so they will be the first to get decoders if I decide to go that route. It would be nice to be able to run some of the other locos that are not so simple to install a decoder in though.
BraddW25 That is a very interesting approach. And it leads to my next question that i was goign to ask. Is it difficult to run DC locos on a DCC system? I have a lot of DC locomotives and while I will probably eventually install decoders in at least some of them, I'm not sure I want to spend the money and effort to convert them all. I do have some that are already DCC and some Kato's that are DCC ready so they will be the first to get decoders if I decide to go that route. It would be nice to be able to run some of the other locos that are not so simple to install a decoder in though.
It is possible and not too difficult, but I think you can run only one DC loco at a time. Non-decoder locos are assigned address 0. And, I think when some (other) loco passes an auto-reverser, the DC locos in the reversing section will suddenly reverse directions. Others might have more info.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
DCC suport for DC locos is dependent on which DCC system you use. Digitrax supports a DC loco on address 00, NCE does not. I believe one other system supports 00 but off hand can't recall which one. Be advised that the DC loco will not run as well on address 00 and probably will emmit a whining sound. while it is possible to do this it is not highly recommended, but you can do it. Also having DC and DCC sections of your layout on at the same time can lead to trouble. Should a metal wheel set, be it loco or rolling stock, bridge the gap between the DC side and the DCC side, you stand an excellent chance of frying the DCC system, and as you plan to have the two systems meet at the yards it increases the chances of a unpleasent occurance. I recommend that you not set up your layout this way. If you want the option of running DC and DCC, having a switch that selects either DC or DCC, but not both, for the entire layout is by far the safest way to go.